kdm
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Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sat Sep 16, 2006 8:51 am

Do airlines actually charge the "no show" charge for not turning up for a flight. In the past on three occasions I have not take a return leg of a long distant flight for different reasons. I have never cancelled the return flight (although I probably should have out of courtesy)

Recently I have had to cancel 2 return flights with SQ and they told me that I would have been charged a cancellation fee of something like $250US if I did a no show. Not sure how they would take the money, or if they allowed to. Anyone know?
 
HikesWithEyes
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting Kdm (Thread starter):
I have never cancelled the return flight (although I probably should have out of courtesy)

If you ever find yourself complaining about airfares, then remember that.
First, benzene in my Perrier, and now this!
 
lincoln
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:53 am

Quoting HikesWithEyes (Reply 1):
If you ever find yourself complaining about airfares, then remember that.

Or if the OP ever finds himself complaining about airline overbooking policies...
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
kdm
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sat Sep 16, 2006 12:27 pm

yes, wasn't expecting sympathy, but then wasn't expecting a whinge in return. I am in the process of cancelling several return legs of flights with SQ, so I have learnt it should be done.

My question was also prompted by fact that return tickets are often much cheaper than one way tickets, so it is not common for people to by a return ticket for a one way trip, hence the question of do airlines charge cancellation fees, and do people go through the hassle of cancelling the return leg?
 
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litz
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sat Sep 16, 2006 1:08 pm

The best thing to do is not cancel the ticket ... instead, cancel that portion of the itinerary, eat the change-fee cost, and use the balance to book another flight.

The change-fee will always be less and the airline would rather have you on a flight, somewhere, somewhen, then not at all.

Most US airlines will let you change flights for $50, and cancel/rebook for $100.

- litz
 
Leskova
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting Litz (Reply 4):
The best thing to do is not cancel the ticket ... instead, cancel that portion of the itinerary, eat the change-fee cost, and use the balance to book another flight.

As long as the fare permits changes, that's usually a good idea.

Unfortunately, the fees are not as low as they are in the US in most of the rest of the world...  Sad

Quoting Kdm (Thread starter):
Do airlines actually charge the "no show" charge for not turning up for a flight.

In fact, they do - but there's often a misunderstanding about how they charge it. This is not a charge that you pay in addition to the fare you've already paid (for example if you've got a nonref ticket, you'll not be charged a noshow fee on top of that).

What does happen is if you cancel before the flight, you pay the cancellation fee; some airlines then have a separate fee that they charge in case of noshows, instead of the cancellation fee, which you pay instead of the cancellation fee if you cancel after having noshow'ed on your booked flight.

Most airlines don't even have separate cancellation/noshow fees any longer - most simply have cancellation fees that are charged whenever you cancel, regardless of before or after the time/date of the first flight.

The only real difference is whether you've already flown a segment of your ticket - because as soon as you have, it'll usually be nonrefundable (with the obvious exception of full fares and some, but very few, lower fares).
Smile - it confuses people!
 
AJMIA
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:30 pm

On most AA fares if you no show the flight you will loose the value of the remaining flight coupons. It happens automatically. When the flight is put into PDC a message is sent to Sabre and all the noshow E-tickets are changed from OK to NOGO. You need to have a pretty good reason to have the status changed back to OK.

If you call and cancel your flight before the departure.... even only one minute before the departure you will maintain the value of your flight coupon and you will only need to pay any applicable fare difference or change fees to change it in the future.

This is done to encourage people to cancel in advance so we have an opportunity to reuse their seat.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sat Sep 16, 2006 11:46 pm

This is really a politically incorrect thing to say, but for your own self interest, you should not be courteous by informing the airline. By doing so, you are advising them that you are in violation of the contract that exists between the two of you. You can lose you FF miles, you can at that point be charged a higher rate that might exist between point A and point B. By being impolite, you can a) open a seat for a standby passenger, b) keep your miles, c) get lost in the computerized records which are so overwhelmed it wouldn't pay for them to search you out, and d) probably save yourself some money which you can spend on the beleaguered airline next time around.

Living in a high priced hub, I resent being hit with a "sale" fare between Point Atlanta and my point B destination, when I know I can book my return through Atlanta on to Fort Lauderdale, and invariably save $50-100 by not using the onward leg. This makes no economic sense whatsoever, but I figure if the airlines are paying mega bucks to people to program computers to screw me because I live near Hartsfield, two can play the game. Just don't check your luggage.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
access-air
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
Living in a high priced hub, I resent being hit with a "sale" fare between Point Atlanta and my point B destination, when I know I can book my return through Atlanta on to Fort Lauderdale, and invariably save $50-100 by not using the onward leg. This makes no economic sense whatsoever, but I figure if the airlines are paying mega bucks to people to program computers to screw me because I live near Hartsfield, two can play the game.

This is something that is called Hidden City ticketing and if you ever get caught, you can either have your tickets cancelled or the applicable fare collected.....Or Both.

I actually think that the "Use it or Lose" it rule is a good one....It makes people become responsible for keeping track of their reservations....Its simple..If you know you wont be flying call your travel agent, or the airline or however you booked it and CANCEL......Most airlines will make your NONREFUNDABLE tickets convert to ZERO Value if you No-Show....I think its a good lesson!!!

I know that some Doctor's Offices employe the same practice....If you dont cancel your Doctor's appointment and NO SHOW, the enforceably bill you for the appointment anyway....It may not seem fair but they are holding a time slot open for YOU and if you just dont show up, Why should they lose money?
Or worse they could have accomodated someone else.....

So remember when you buy a NON Refundable ticket if you arent going, cancel your reservations or you may never see your money again...

Access-Air

p.s. Northwest Airlines is a bit more restrictive than most of the airlines...they require that after you cancel your tickets that you must reschedule your new trip within the 90 days after your cancellation for your new trip, or your ticket will have ZERO value!!!!

[Edited 2006-09-16 17:14:00]
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
kdm
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:18 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
This is really a politically incorrect thing to say, but for your own self interest, you should not be courteous by informing the airline

I do like this approuch. Also makes sense. The flights I haven't turned up for have been with ANZ, JAL and Virgin.

With ANZ I had to go from Auckland to Gisborne, to Wellington to Nelson and back to Auckland. This is possible via 4 one way tickets but ANZ suggested I by 4 pairs or return tickets and only use one segment. I did a now show for the return leg of each segment and saved myself 50 percent of the airfare as one way tickets are so expensive.

With Virgin I was stuck in LA and had to get back to London, I was waitlisted on ANZ and confirmed to fly 4 days later. A one way ticket was $1000US but Virgin sold my a return for $399US and agin told me not to take the return flight, so I did a no show.

Lastly with JAL my family and I had such terrible service on our Singapore/Tokyo/London flight such that when work asked me to stay in London for another few days I said I would if they paid for a direct one way flight London/Singapore for me and the family. They agreed I did a no show for the JAL return flights. I have little sympathy for JAL as they were so rude on the flight I swore I would never fly them again (and haven't)
 
AJMIA
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting Kdm (Reply 9):
With Virgin I was stuck in LA and had to get back to London, I was waitlisted on ANZ and confirmed to fly 4 days later. A one way ticket was $1000US but Virgin sold my a return for $399US and agin told me not to take the return flight, so I did a no show.

If you are going to do a "no show" on the return and you don't care about, can't or don't intend to use the return flight you really don't need to bother to call and cancel your reservation. The value will be lost to you anyway. Yield management at the airline is pretty good at setting the overbooking level to account for no shows.

If you intend to use the value of that flight coupon at a later time you had better take the time to call.

There is no rule that says you must travel round trip on a round trip ticket. If you take your outbound flight and your plans change nobody can force you to take the return flight... you just loose your money.

Hidden city ticketing is not much of a problem anymore. It is very easy to catch with electronic tickets. Unused VCR flight segments or segments used out of order stick out like a sore thumb.

Before E tickets, agencies in Miami would sell F class tickets MIA-LAX routed from Central American or the Caribbean; KIN-MIA-LAX or GUA-MIA-LAX. The full fare F fare from these countries were cheaper than the full Y MIA-LAX fare. On the paper ticket the agency would simply pull off the unused first flight coupon and send the passenger on their way.

AJMIA
Lady it's a jet... not a kite.
 
B777-700
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
This is really a politically incorrect thing to say, but for your own self interest, you should not be courteous by informing the airline.

It's not being courteous to the airline, it's being courteous to the next passenger what wants to buy a seat.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
By doing so, you are advising them that you are in violation of the contract that exists between the two of you.

So? Same rules and fees apply even if you don't.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
You can lose you FF miles, you can at that point be charged a higher rate that might exist between point A and point B.

Um, you wouldn't get FF miles if you don't fly either way, so what's you point? Also, you have to pay any difference in fare whether you cancel in advance or not. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
By being impolite, you can a) open a seat for a standby passenger

I'm sure those employees that you 'love' so much thank you for that!

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
get lost in the computerized records which are so overwhelmed it wouldn't pay for them to search you out

Do you think so?

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
Living in a high priced hub,

You live in Atlanta, it's NOT a high priced hub. More misinformation from you.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
I resent being hit with a "sale" fare between Point Atlanta and my point B destination, when I know I can book my return through Atlanta on to Fort Lauderdale, and invariably save $50-100 by not using the onward leg. This makes no economic sense whatsoever, but I figure if the airlines are paying mega bucks to people to program computers to screw me because I live near Hartsfield, two can play the game. Just don't check your luggage

That's hidden city ticketing, and it's illegal, like it or not. The airlines (and I know for a fact the one you hate in ATL) have software in place to catch people doing this. You might get away with it for a while, but they can and will bill you for the difference later.

I'm not expecting you to respond, as usual you just come on here and post your garbage and run away.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
c) get lost in the computerized records which are so overwhelmed it wouldn't pay for them to search you out,

Don't worry, they'll find you - that's really easy these days. If you NOSHO, the DCS system will flag your booking as Nosho, and Revenue Integrity applications with cancel any onward itinerary segments. If you are a frequent flyer and do this little trick a little too often, they'll penalise you.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
That's hidden city ticketing, and it's illegal, like it or not.

It's not actually against the law - the airlines just don't like it and have set up very expensive and very sophisticated systems to track agencies and passengers that do it, and where such booking activity is identified, the booking can be cancelled.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
AIR757200
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting AJMIA (Reply 6):
On most AA fares if you no show the flight you will loose the value of the remaining flight coupons. It happens automatically. When the flight is put into PDC a message is sent to Sabre and all the noshow E-tickets are changed from OK to NOGO. You need to have a pretty good reason to have the status changed back to OK.

NOGO status change occurs later on, I believe (that night of when you missed your flight)-- at midnight central time; so if you're planning on being late for your scheduled flight and get to the airport later; the coupon will still be OK. You're right though, you better have a darn good reason to have the status changed to OK.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
I'm not expecting you to respond, as usual you just come on here and post your garbage

Please, don't force yourself to continue reading...

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
it's being courteous to the next passenger what wants to buy a seat.

I am shocked, shocked to learn that "overbooking" does not exist. Well, actually, there is one airline which does not overbook. Apparently my nemesis (look it up), thinks that particular airline can cure cancer also. Alas, they no longer fly out of Atlanta, complements of my favorite airline based here.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
you have to pay any difference in fare whether you cancel in advance or not

Right...

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
Atlanta, it's NOT a high priced hub

Delta, mid week, 3 weeks from now:
SFO/ATL rt $278
SFO/Fll via ATL both directions: $197

You do the open jaw arithmetic. For everything else, there is MasterCard.
Sorry bud, but no dice.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
That's hidden city ticketing, and it's illegal

Hidden ticketing, absolutely; illegal, hardly. Violation of the "contract" with the airline, no question, it is. Unethical, it would depend on your ethicist. A form of sport for certain frequent fliers, Absolutely!

As I've said, it the airlines themselves that have chosen to play by Byzantine rules, cancel underbooked flights in violation of the "contract", bump passengers when they overbook, overprice a market because they can get away with it. Well, two can play the game. I said "can", not must or should.

Now have a good day
 Smile
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
B777-700
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 12):
It's not actually against the law - the airlines just don't like it and have set up very expensive and very sophisticated systems to track agencies and passengers that do it, and where such booking activity is identified, the booking can be cancelled.

Well, technically it is illegal. After it gets to a point where a passenger does it so much, the software can catch them, and the airlines can sue the passenger...and then it's either pay up or be blacklisted.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 15):
Well, technically it is illegal. After it gets to a point where a passenger does it so much, the software can catch them, and the airlines can sue the passenger...and then it's either pay up or be blacklisted.

Yes they can blacklist, and they may even be able to sue. But the practise is not illegal - there is no state or Federal law being breached here. Purchasing a service and not using it is not illegal. If there's a two-for-one sale and you only use one of the items purchased, they're not going to lock you up.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
B777-700
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 16):
Purchasing a service and not using it is not illegal. If there's a two-for-one sale and you only use one of the items purchased, they're not going to lock you up.

While that's true, hidden city tkting is akin to stealing. Will they prosecute if you do it one, twice...five times? Prolly not. If you have a history tho, and get caught, the airlines can sue for lost revenue...and they'll win too.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
GQfluffy
Posts: 3072
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
SFO/ATL rt $278
SFO/Fll via ATL both directions: $197

Waaah. Cry like a baby. Come live here in Montana. Cheapest way to get out of here, other then working for the airlines, is about $500. Your price quotes are, in my not so humble opinion, cheaper then hell, and obviously show SOME competition on that route...

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
Hidden ticketing, absolutely; illegal, hardly. Violation of the "contract" with the airline, no question, it is. Unethical, it would depend on your ethicist. A form of sport for certain frequent fliers, Absolutely!

And you wonder why airlines are in the financial situation they are. One of these times you'll get caught, and when you come on here complaining, I'm sure people will flame the crap out of you.
This isn't where I parked my car...
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:40 am

Yes it's sort of like renting a movie but not returning it. Not such a big deal, but eventually they will come for you. You enter into a contract and breach it. This is risky for a consumer to do, and over time the legal liabilities from doing it may reach a large amt of money.

This all boils down to the pricing strategy of airlines. Why on earth are 1way tickets more expensive? Because they are worth more to customers. 1way tickets are desirable for BUSINESS travellers who need flexibility and otherwise might fly by private jet. The airlines provide flexibility which is a killer value and they expect to be paid the asking price for that flexibility. It's in the contract.

Same goes for Saturday night stays. Of course only tourists enjoy those tickets, and that is why they are cheap! It's called market segmentation and it is a proven method to extract the maximum currency from the market by offering products tailored for all groups of customers. Much like how the Gap owns Banana Republic and Old Navy. Do you go into Banana Republic and complain it costs more than Old Navy? They are different products and for you to excange price tags between the stores would be unethical.

But just to be clear, I say the airlines offer increased FLEXIBILITY for more money... not a better seat or service. This flexibility is worth a ton of money to business (and some leisure) customers. Last minute / 1way airline tickets are cheap compared to private jets, the other mainstay of business travel.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
B777-700
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Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
Please, don't force yourself to continue reading...

Oh but I will! People like you are what's wrong w/ this forum. You post unsubstantiated BS and opinions a fact. You're anti-airline, save that crap for flyertalk.

Plus it's great fun making you look like an arrogant blowhard.

Then again, you do a great job yourself.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
I am shocked, shocked to learn that "overbooking" does not exist. Well, actually, there is one airline which does not overbook. Apparently my nemesis (look it up), thinks that particular airline can cure cancer also. Alas, they no longer fly out of Atlanta, complements of my favorite airline based here.

No, compliments of their own mistake. Jetblue has no one to blame but themselves for their ATL debacle. Go read the hundreds of posts about this issue before bringing it up again.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
Quoting B777-700 (Reply 11):
Atlanta, it's NOT a high priced hub

Delta, mid week, 3 weeks from now:
SFO/ATL rt $278
SFO/Fll via ATL both directions: $197

You do the open jaw arithmetic. For everything else, there is MasterCard.
Sorry bud, but no dice.

You think THAT'S high priced?!?! Hell, even the proper $278 fare is a steal!

But since you're Mr. Know-it-all, I'm sure you realize why fares are that way, right? I'm not going to explain it to you.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
Hidden ticketing, absolutely; illegal, hardly. Violation of the "contract" with the airline, no question, it is. Unethical, it would depend on your ethicist. A form of sport for certain frequent fliers, Absolutely!

Prosecutable? Absolutely! Big grin

Do it enough and you'll get caught, it's inevitable.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
As I've said, it the airlines themselves that have chosen to play by Byzantine rules

According to whom, exactly?

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
cancel underbooked flights in violation of the "contract",

No airline cancels flight just because it's 'underbooked'. That would be disastrous from an operational standpoint alone. It simply doesn't happen, but it's a common perception from people like you.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
bump passengers when they overbook

Nothing wrong with that.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
overprice a market because they can get away with it.

Supply and demand.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
Well, two can play the game. I said "can", not must or should.

I'm sure all the employees who have taken a pay cut so you can have your ridiculously low fares appreciate it.

One less flight attendant to stand in the isle and toss your salad for you while you sip your ice wine.  Yeah sure
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 17):
While that's true, hidden city tkting is akin to stealing. Will they prosecute if you do it one, twice...five times? Prolly not. If you have a history tho, and get caught, the airlines can sue for lost revenue...and they'll win too.

It's not stealing. The airline offered a specific service consisting of transport over 2 or more legs. You paid the ticket price they asked. You then used only the transport over one of the legs. There is no legal or contractual obligation to use all of the service purchased. If the airline's pricing is so Byzantine that it is in fact cheaper to buy 2 services than just 1, but you only need 1, it's not the consumer's error. There's only loss of revenue because of the airline's bizarre policies - and in fact they've lost no revenue, they sold something, you paid the asking price, end of.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
Yes it's sort of like renting a movie but not returning it. Not such a big deal, but eventually they will come for you.

No it's not - not returning a rental movie is theft. This is akin to renting 3 DVD's for the price of 2 and only watching 2 of them. Blockbuster really couldn't care.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
It's not stealing.

Yes it is. Let's look at Georgie boy's example...

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
Delta, mid week, 3 weeks from now:
SFO/ATL rt $278
SFO/Fll via ATL both directions: $197

He lives in Atlanta. He could buy SFO-ATL for $278. Or he could buy SFO-ATL-FLL for $197 and just get off in ATL. In effect, he just stole $81.

You can call it Byzantine, or any other fancy name you want, but it is what it is for various reasons, and yes, it is illegal ticketing, and yes, they airlines will catch you eventually, and no, you can't use anything you said as a defense.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
There's only loss of revenue because of the airline's bizarre policies - and in fact they've lost no revenue, they sold something, you paid the asking price, end of.

No, you didn't. You paid for and entered into a contract for SFO-FLL, the price for SFO-ATL is higher.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
No it's not - not returning a rental movie is theft. This is akin to renting 3 DVD's for the price of 2 and only watching 2 of them.

...and keeping the third.  Yeah sure

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
Blockbuster really couldn't care.

The airlines do, trust me on that.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 22):
He lives in Atlanta. He could buy SFO-ATL for $278. Or he could buy SFO-ATL-FLL for $197 and just get off in ATL. In effect, he just stole $81.

How is it stealing, what asset was taken from the airline which denied further use (which is why copyright violations cannot be stealing but may still be illegal)? Also please cite a specific section of the CFR, UCS, Georgia or California code which makes the practice illegal. The airline can prohibit the behavior in the contract of carriage, and penalize the customer for the behavior but the fact of the matter is that they actually come out ahead if you do not board the last leg (it costs them less to fly that flight).
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 23):
How is it stealing

How can you see that it's not? He's not paying what the airline is charging for that 'product'. End of story.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 23):
The airline can prohibit the behavior in the contract of carriage, and penalize the customer for the behavior but the fact of the matter is that they actually come out ahead if you do not board the last leg (it costs them less to fly that flight).

Doesn't work like that, sorry.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15080
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 24):
Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 23):
How is it stealing

How can you see that it's not? He's not paying what the airline is charging for that 'product'. End of story

Yes he is. The airline charged him a certain amount for travel SFO-ATL and ATL-FLL. He paid what they asked. The airline said, " If you buy travel from SFO to ATL, we'll charge you USD278.00. But if you buy travel from SFO to ATL AND ATL to FLL, we'll only charge you USD197.00 " It's like if they offered you a litre of milk for $1.00 but if you buy a litre of milk AND a box of cornflakes, you only pay $0.95. If you elect the second option, the grocery store can't sue you if you then throw the cornflakes away.

Each coupon on the ticket has a certain value - a SFO-ATL-FLL journey is two coupons, with a specific value each. If you choose to exchange only one of the coupons for travel, and discard the other, that is your right.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
B777-700
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 26):
Each coupon on the ticket has a certain value - a SFO-ATL-FLL journey is two coupons, with a specific value each. If you choose to exchange only one of the coupons for travel, and discard the other, that is your right.

Please show me in any fare rules where it is the pax right to do that...lol

It's illegal tkting, end of story.

He purchased a fare valid only SFO-FLL, not SFO-ATL. This is not hard to understand.

If this was legit, the airlines wouldn't have a problem with it right?

Guess what? They do.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 635
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 24):
How can you see that it's not? He's not paying what the airline is charging for that 'product'. End of story.

It is still not stealing, there was a concentual transaction. If it is actually illegal it would fall under something such as fraud since it would involve intentional misrepresentation. Again I am asking for someone to point out where such behavior is declared illegal. No one has done that. What statute or court decision established such a law (please provide a web-referencable cite if possible). I am not saying it isn't illegal, just that no-one here has given actual evidence to indicate it is.

I have also never said that the airline couldn't prohibit such behavior in its contract of carriage. In this case a breach of contract occurs. The problem is actually defining and assessing damages. Again, does someone have a body of case-law that can be referenced?

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 24):
Doesn't work like that, sorry.

The only way it doesn't work like that is if the airline can show that by selling that ticket they displace a passenger willing to pay the higher amount for only the ATL-SFO leg. If they cannot show this then they cannot show a loss, as the seat would have gone unsold (yes the offering of a SFO-ATL-FLL ticket at $197 decreases the expected value of the SFO-ATL leg, only if you assume the basket of goods is not mutable would this not be the case). This goes back to a breach of contract issue. There are cases where breaching a contract might be a criminal behavior, but there are generally very specific reasons as to why this is.
 
B777-700
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 28):
It is still not stealing, there was a concentual transaction.

Right, from SFO-FLL, not SFO-ATL.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 28):
If it is actually illegal it would fall under something such as fraud since it would involve intentional misrepresentation.

It is. He agree to buy a tkt at a lower fare valid only for SFO-FLL.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 28):
Again I am asking for someone to point out where such behavior is declared illegal. No one has done that. What statute or court decision established such a law (please provide a web-referencable cite if possible). I am not saying it isn't illegal, just that no-one here has given actual evidence to indicate it is.

Illegal tkting is not literally against the law. You are taking that wrong. It is however against the contract that you agreed to (making the tkt 'illegal') when you purchased the tkt. The airlines can prosecute you if you get cought, and they will win.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 28):
The problem is actually defining and assessing damages.

Simple...In his case, it's $81. Do that enuff and it'll add up.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 28):
The only way it doesn't work like that is if the airline can show that by selling that ticket they displace a passenger willing to pay the higher amount for only the ATL-SFO leg. If they cannot show this then they cannot show a loss, as the seat would have gone unsold (yes the offering of a SFO-ATL-FLL ticket at $197 decreases the expected value of the SFO-ATL leg, only if you assume the basket of goods is not mutable would this not be the case). This goes back to a breach of contract issue. There are cases where breaching a contract might be a criminal behavior, but there are generally very specific reasons as to why this is.

The fare is valid SFO-FLL, not SFO-ATL. It doesn't matter where the plane stops, if at all. I'm done repeating myself. This is not hard to figure out.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 29):
Illegal tkting is not literally against the law. You are taking that wrong. It is however against the contract that you agreed to (making the tkt 'illegal') when you purchased the tkt. The airlines can prosecute you if you get cought, and they will win.

I have always said it was a breach of contract.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 23):
The airline can prohibit the behavior in the contract of carriage, and penalize the customer for the behavior



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 28):
I have also never said that the airline couldn't prohibit such behavior in its contract of carriage. In this case a breach of contract occurs.

The problem is in assessing damages. You say that the airlines can sue and will win; please cite a case where they have won (I am not saying there are not any). You cannot say they "will win" unless it has actually occured, even then there is uncertainty. Also they cannot prosecute (actually that is a power of the state) unless the act is criminal. If it isn't criminal they can sue for restitution and damages, in which case the airline is the plaintiff.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 29):
Simple...In his case, it's $81. Do that enuff and it'll add up.

The problem is that this assumes that he would spend the extra $81. This is a very bad assumption, albet one that people and courts will often make. The purchaser might or might not have spent the extra money. Further, once the lower fare is published he/she is less willing to spend the extra money. Yes, the airlines devalue their SFO-ATL product by pricing a SFO-FLL flight through ATL at a lower price.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 29):
The fare is valid SFO-FLL, not SFO-ATL.

I have never argued otherwise, that is the contract between the airline and the passenger.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 29):
It doesn't matter where the plane stops, if at all.

This would be an interesting one to test since fees and portions of the fare are often based upon if and where the plane stops. I have not seen any case law on this, though some may exist.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 29):
I'm done repeating myself. This is not hard to figure out.

I never asked you to repeat yourself. The problem is that you never answered or countered comments I made, though this could be because we have misunderstood each other.
 
cumulus
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:31 am

If in doubt, ring your credit card company (the one you used to book with)saying it's been pinched. They then re-issue another with another with a completely different number different to what the airline have when you booked so they can't just charge your account automatically. If they do try to charge, it's not authorised by the bank and let them whistle.
What Goes Up Must Come Down, Hopefully In One Piece!
 
supa7E7
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 21):
Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 19):
Yes it's sort of like renting a movie but not returning it. Not such a big deal, but eventually they will come for you.

No it's not - not returning a rental movie is theft. This is akin to renting 3 DVD's for the price of 2 and only watching 2 of them. Blockbuster really couldn't care.

That is an interesting analogy. Let's make it a movie theater. Say they sell 1 movie for $10 or a doubleheader for $30. Real movie fanatics have to pay a premium, because they love movies so much. But you cannot buy 2 single tickets, it's not allowed. In this case, the movie theater makes additional profits from its "best" customers, allowing it to survive. If the fanatics disobey, the theater will have to raise its price for NORMAL people to $12. Or it may go out of business if that is not an option.

On the surface this pricing looks illogical but it leads to a more efficient system and market, I believe. If everybody pays the same, the total size of the market shrinks. The cheapskates can no longer afford the product.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
georgiaame
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:50 am

Fantastic! You guys have made my day.

-700, the only thing missing in your arguments is not calling me a Nazi. That tends to be the last line when you have completely run out of logical thought processes. I'm waiting.

Signed, the blowhard.

Once more, the Federal Code that makes Hidden Ticketing a Federal (or even a State) offense?
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
AIR757200
Posts: 1466
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:09 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 26):
Each coupon on the ticket has a certain value - a SFO-ATL-FLL journey is two coupons, with a specific value each. If you choose to exchange only one of the coupons for travel, and discard the other, that is your right.

Careful, it depends on the actual fare calucation line to determine the "specific fare value".

While an E-Ticket may indicate two coupons for each segment, one needs to look at the fare breakdown (see samples):

Passenger 1:

CPN 1 SFOATL VA7DNR
CPN 2 ATLFLL VA7DNR

"....SFO /ATL FLL204.00VA7DNR..."

Passenger 2:

CPN 1 SFOATL VA7DNR
CPN 2 ATLFLL L26D

"...SFO ATL204.00VA7DNR /X FLL 315.00L26D.."


Passenger 2 can technically complete his trip in ATL, and use CPN 2 for future travel. While his ticket may appear as a one-way ticket, it's actually two one-ways. If Passenger 1 got off at ATL and did not reboard; then he will be out on CPN 2. The system gets creative on pricing the best fare.

This is why I work the ATO; love ticketing!
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting AIR757200 (Reply 34):

Careful, it depends on the actual fare calucation line to determine the "specific fare value".

While an E-Ticket may indicate two coupons for each segment, one needs to look at the fare breakdown (see samples):

Thanks for that - although I'm supposed to know all about it (I sell Airline IT), fares/pricing/ticketing are still a fairly closed book to me - I know the basics but the nuts and bolts are just WAY TOO HARD !! And whenever I do presentations on fares or ticketing, there's always a pricing/ticketing expert (like you !) from the airline who asks enormously complicated questions like "If I have a super-apex through-fare with an additional add-on segment, then a surface sector segment, then I upgrade the return, can your system automatically calculate the YQ surcharge and refund the unused taxes and blah blah..." - at which point I lose the will to live.  Smile
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
B777-700
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:36 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 33):
That tends to be the last line when you have completely run out of logical thought processes. I'm waiting.

Well, it is a pretty simple and logical concept. I'm sorry you can't (or refuse to) understand it.

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 33):
Once more, the Federal Code that makes Hidden Ticketing a Federal (or even a State) offense?

Go back and read reply #30
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
AIR757200
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 34):
"If I have a super-apex through-fare with an additional add-on segment, then a surface sector segment, then I upgrade the return, can your system automatically calculate the YQ surcharge and refund the unused taxes and blah blah..."

This is when I call the tariff department... haha  Wink
 
lincoln
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 29):
This would be an interesting one to test since fees and portions of the fare are often based upon if and where the plane stops. I have not seen any case law on this, though some may exist.

Usually a fair number of the PFCs, taxes, etc. are added on to the base fare while the itinerary is being booked, so I don't find it hard to beleive that the BASE fare for the SFO-FLL city pair is a constant regardless of where (or if or how many times) you stop, but that will have an impact on the passenger facility charges, security fees, etc when the final fair calculation is done.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 20):
You think THAT'S high priced?!?! Hell, even the proper $278 fare is a steal!

Hell, I did CLE-MSY-CLE on CO for $800--with a 14 day advance purchase--And as originally ticketed, I didn't even get a mainline flight for that price. (Plans wound up changing so I went back MSY-IAH-CLE, all mainline, no up charge).

WRT hidden city ticketing, I personally feel it is unethical and a very clear breach of your agreement with the airline. Read the contract of carriage which, in addition to that really fine print on the inside of the ticket jacket make up the agreement between you and the airline and outlines both parties responsibilities. (per DOT regs airlines are required to the Contract of Carriage them availble upon request for inspection wherever their tickets are sold; many airlines also have them on their website).

In the case of Continental, Rule 6 on pages 11-12 is very clear: Rule 6 (J)(1)- "Fares apply for travel only between the points for which they are published. Tickets may not be purchased and used at fare(s) from an initial departure point on the Ticket which is before the Passenger's actual point of travel, or to a more distant point(s) that the Passenger's actual destination being traveled even when the purchase and use of such Tickets would produce a lower fare. This practice is known as 'Hidden Cities Ticketing' or 'Point Beyond Ticketing' and is prohibited by CO.

Rule 6 (K) detals CO's remedies:
"Where a Ticket purchased and used in violation of the Contract of Carriage or any fare Rule (including...Hidden Cities Ticketing...), CO has the right in its sole discretion to take all actions permitted by law, including but not limited to the following:
1) Invalidate the Tickets(s);
2) Cancel any remaining portion of the Passenger's itinerary;
3) Confiscate any unused Flight Cupons;
4) Refuse to board the Passenger and to carry the Passenger's baggage unless the difference between the fare paid and the fare for transportation used is paid prior to boarding;
5) Assess the Passenger for the acutal value of the Ticket which shall be the difference between the lowest fare applicable to the Passenger's actual itinerary and the fare actually paid;
6) Delete miles in the Passenger's frequent flyer account...revoke the Passenger's Elite status, if any, ..., terminate the Passenger's participation in the OnePass program...
7) Take legal action with respect to the Passenger


I don't really see how it could be any clearer.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 18):
Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 14):
SFO/ATL rt $278
SFO/Fll via ATL both directions: $197

Waaah. Cry like a baby. Come live here in Montana. Cheapest way to get out of here, other then working for the airlines, is about $500. Your price quotes are, in my not so humble opinion, cheaper then hell, and obviously show SOME competition on that route...

You are correct; FL (which also has its main hub in ATL) competes w/DL on both of those routes.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
B777-700
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 37):
I don't really see how it could be any clearer.

Lincoln

God bless you! Big grin

I havent had the time to find Delta's policy, but I've read it before and it's almost word for word the same as CO's.

This SHOULD put this debate to bed...Why do I have a feeling it won't?  Wink
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 39):
This SHOULD put this debate to bed...Why do I have a feeling it won't?

All that Lincoln's excellent post shows is that the airlines don't like it, and reserve the right to take legal action. It doesn't make the use of Hidden City ticketing actually AGAINST THE LAW. Nor does it make it morally wrong to take advantage of airlines' bizarre and overcomplicated pricing practises.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
B777-700
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:11 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):
All that Lincoln's excellent post shows is that the airlines don't like it, and reserve the right to take legal action. It doesn't make the use of Hidden City ticketing actually AGAINST THE LAW.

Well, the airlines will win any court case, so you can describe it however you like.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):
Nor does it make it morally wrong to take advantage of airlines' bizarre and overcomplicated pricing practises.

Maybe not...What makes it morally wrong is you do it at the expense of the already underpaid airline employees who have taken pay cuts so you guys can have your already ridiculously low fares.  Yeah sure
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 41):
Well, the airlines will win any court case, so you can describe it however you like

Has anyone actually ever been taken to court over this ? In a civil or criminal case ? I'd be interested to know what the outcome was.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 41):
Maybe not...What makes it morally wrong is you do it at the expense of the already underpaid airline employees who have taken pay cuts so you guys can have your already ridiculously low fares.

How is the consumer to know whether or not the airline makes a reasonable profit on the fares they charge ? How can an airline fly a passenger SFO-ATL-FLL at lower cost to the airline than to fly them SFO-ATL alone ? When the pricing of the product no longer bears any relation to the cost of production, how else can the consumer react but to take advantage of this illogicality ?

Bear in mind also that airline employees were the ones who made up these pricing policies and made the decision to charge less for a 2 leg journey than for 1 leg. Sadly, the consumer is under no obligation to the underpaid airline employee (I know, I used to be one too, for a very long time), and it is for the airlines to work this out for themselves.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 37):
Tickets may not be purchased and used at fare(s) from an initial departure point on the Ticket which is before the Passenger's actual point of travel, or to a more distant point(s) that the Passenger's actual destination being traveled even when the purchase and use of such Tickets would produce a lower fare. This practice is known as 'Hidden Cities Ticketing' or 'Point Beyond Ticketing' and is prohibited by CO.

This could be read in an interesting way that could be quite expansive. If I am traveling between Atlanta and Cincinnati, but I purchase a ticket from ATL-DAY (non-stop or connecting) fly into and out of DAY but drive back to Cincinnati (to a point closer to CVG than to DAY) I have effectively violated this clause (notice it says actual destination not destination airport). Under this clause CO (or any other carrier with similar language) could seek that I pay the ATL-CVG fare and not the ATL-DAY fare. Has anyone every tested this clause.

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 37):
5) Assess the Passenger for the acutal value of the Ticket which shall be the difference between the lowest fare applicable to the Passenger's actual itinerary and the fare actually paid;

Of course just because an airline says it can or will do something doesn't mean that it could actually succeed in recovering anything. Does anyone know of any cases where the airlines have been or have not been successful at this?

Remember you do not have to accept the proposed contract of carriage, you are allowed to negotiate with the airline, companies do this all of the time. This is how companies get U class fares that are refundable. Of course the airline does not have to change to contract, but someone might want to try and negotiate.
 
phollingsworth
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 41):
Well, the airlines will win any court case, so you can describe it however you like.

Quick question, do you work in an airline legal department? If not how do you know this is the case? In the general sense airlines loose court cases periodically. I would like to see one or more court cases with respect to this topic. The reason for this is I would like to know the actual law that is in place.
 
lincoln
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 43):
Of course just because an airline says it can or will do something doesn't mean that it could actually succeed in recovering anything. Does anyone know of any cases where the airlines have been or have not been successful at this?



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 44):
I would like to see one or more court cases with respect to this topic. The reason for this is I would like to know the actual law that is in place.

I'll be the first to say that I don't know with respect to individual passengers; I do know that when travel agencies were more prevelent it was not uncommon for airlines to issue MCO (Miscellaneous Charge Orders)/Debit Memos to travel agencies for prohibited ticketing practices (i.e. hidden cities/throwaway ticketing)

It would seem logical that if airlines were willing to persue travel agencies for the actions of the passenger, that if ther passenger were egregiously flaunting the rule (like doing the same thing every week) the airline would be equally willing to persue the customer directly -- heck, most of the time they already have the credit card number anyway.

Do it once or twice, get sued? I don't think so; do it all the time and you may have problems.

Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
 
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting Kdm (Reply 9):
Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 7):
This is really a politically incorrect thing to say, but for your own self interest, you should not be courteous by informing the airline

I do like this approuch. Also makes sense.

As was said earlier, then you have absolutely no right to complain in any way about airline fares and/or ticketing policies as they're the way they are thanks to people like you.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 20):
Delta, mid week, 3 weeks from now:
SFO/ATL rt $278
SFO/Fll via ATL both directions: $197

You do the open jaw arithmetic. For everything else, there is MasterCard.
Sorry bud, but no dice.

You think THAT'S high priced?!?! Hell, even the proper $278 fare is a steal!

Agreed. You couldn't DRIVE SFO-ATL roundtrip for $278.00.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Lincoln (Reply 45):
do know that when travel agencies were more prevelent it was not uncommon for airlines to issue MCO (Miscellaneous Charge Orders)/Debit Memos to travel agencies for prohibited ticketing practices (i.e. hidden cities/throwaway ticketing)

It would have been an Agency Debit Memo (ADM) - an MCO is something quite different.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
supa7E7
Posts: 1360
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 42):
How is the consumer to know whether or not the airline makes a reasonable profit on the fares they charge ? How can an airline fly a passenger SFO-ATL-FLL at lower cost to the airline than to fly them SFO-ATL alone ? When the pricing of the product no longer bears any relation to the cost of production, how else can the consumer react but to take advantage of this illogicality ?

Flexible airline travel is a high value product. It's very expensive, because it's very valuable. Many people pay the high business fares. If not, you eventually will get blacklisted. (if you violate the contracts 20+ times you might have a decent shot; who knows).

LCC style pricing has its allure, but with LCC pricing we would have a smaller airline market whose median fares would be higher. A few more business travelers would fly but vastly fewer leisure pax. That in essence is the 1970s way of doing things - flat fares, high fares.

Choose which is better: $150 one way/$300 roundtrip (flat pricing), or we can do $200 roundtrip and $500 1way. Turns out the latter choice makes more money AND allows the masses to travel cheaper. Think about it.

Oh, but it is so illogical. Whatever. Some airlines are moving to "one way" pricing models, but very slowly. They are wary that RT fares must inevitably rise and in the process, many vacationers will stay home and and planes will need to be parked.
"Who's to say spaceships aren't fine art?" - Phil Lesh
 
lincoln
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RE: Cancellation Charge For No Show

Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 43):
This could be read in an interesting way that could be quite expansive.



Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 43):
Under this clause CO (or any other carrier with similar language) could seek that I pay the ATL-CVG fare and not the ATL-DAY fare.

Sorry, I didn't include the "Definitions" section (rule 1) of the contract of carriage:

"Destination means the ultimate point of the Passenger's journey as shown on the Ticket"

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 43):
Remember you do not have to accept the proposed contract of carriage, you are allowed to negotiate with the airline

Like any contract you don't have to accept the Contract of Carriage, and you are free to negotiate with an authorized representitive of the airline for changes, but they are also free to suggest that you find alternate transportation.

Rule 3(H) of Continental's contract, though, makes it very clear who you may negotiate with:

No Empolyee or agent of CO has the authority to alter, modify, or waive any provision of the Contract of Carriage unless authorized by a corporate officer of CO. CO's appointed agents and representitives are only authorized to sell Tickets for ait transportation pursuant to approved fares, rules, and regulations of CO. Failure or delay on the part of either party to exercise any right or power herein shall not operate as a waiver thereof.

So, if you can get ahold of a corporate officer, then by all means negotiate...

(For anyone wanting to read the complete 46 page contract, it can be found
online at http://www.continental.com/web/en-US...ntract_of_carriage.2006090501.pdf; if you want truly bizentyne rules, see NW's Domestic General Rules [though it looks like they've eliminated the section on Assistance Monkeys])

Lincoln
Lincoln
CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile

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