777DadandJr
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MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sat Sep 16, 2006 10:46 pm

Hey Guys,
Just heard a blurb on the news that MDT (Harrisburg Int'l) has recieved a $400,000 federal grant to help provide incentives to attract LCC's to this tremendously under-utilized, state of the art airport.

This is great news for those of us here in the mid-state. Any program to help spur traffic at MDT is ok with me.

I do have to admit that I took the news with a grain of salt, being that this is an election year. Senator Arlen Spector and Rep Tim Holden were trotted out for the media, big check in hand, showing that they can "bring home the bacon!"

That being said, (and I have said it many time on this board before), MDT needs to be used, and could be a tremendous asset to the region, if only the flying public would get out of the BWI/PHL flying rut!

I hope Fred Testa spends this money wisely!

Russ  wave 
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B757capt
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:01 am

They should call AirTran up and talk to them.
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777DadandJr
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:21 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 1):
They should call AirTran up and talk to them.

They did, last year. 24 hours before they were to make the public announcement, AirTran backed out.

Russ
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BatonOps
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting B757capt (Reply 1):
They should call AirTran up and talk to them.

I don't think they will be calling AirTran again. Jetblue is the latest rumor...

I still think F9 to DEN would be a good choice.
 
777DadandJr
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 3):
I still think F9 to DEN would be a good choice

I concure. I think that would be a good choice.

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 3):
Jetblue is the latest rumor...

Is there any more to this rumor, than has been tossed about for a year or more now?

Russ
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steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:21 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 4):
Quoting BatonOps (Reply 3):
I still think F9 to DEN would be a good choice

I concure. I think that would be a good choice.

Yeah, this will open MDT to the West man! That would be a real shot in the arm for MDT!

F9 wouldn't have to worry about any competition on a MDT-DEN run; there is none! The current furthest west destination from MDT is DFW, courtesy of AA Eagle. It would be a LCC, mainline, and a true western city to fly into. DEN is a superb terminal with excellent connection on F9 out of there...
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777DadandJr
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5):
DEN is a superb terminal with excellent connection on F9 out of there.

It always surprised me that UA never offered an MDT-DEN flight. With their DEN hub, I would think that they would at least offer 1x daily.

Russ
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AirCop
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Thread starter):
Just heard a blurb on the news that MDT (Harrisburg Int'l) has recieved a $400,000 federal grant

Am I the only one that believes this is a waste of tax dollars? (Not just Harrisburg but all over the country)
 
777DadandJr
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:53 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 7):
Am I the only one that believes this is a waste of tax dollars?

Probably not.
Though, my practical side says yes, it is, my selfish side says, no, MDT needs this. But, as I said in my original post, it is also an election year.

Hey, if Alaska can get millions for a bridge to nowhere, what's a little 400 grand for MDT gonna hurt?

Russ
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B757capt
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 2):

Wow i had no clue. was any real reason given?>
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777DadandJr
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:11 pm

Quoting B757capt (Reply 9):
Wow i had no clue. was any real reason given?

I don't recall specifically. AirTran just decided that MDT wouldn't be a good fit for them at that time. Though, I don't know why they went through all the motions and backed out at the last minute.
It was kind of a pisser, because we had just lost Trans Meridian earlier that same year.

We'll have to wait and see what happens with B6.
Russ
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BatonOps
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting B757capt (Reply 9):
Wow i had no clue. was any real reason given?>

FL blamed the lack of aircraft at the time but then announced service to HPN the next day. I think something happened between MDT and FL for them to pull out right before the announcement.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 5):
The current furthest west destination from MDT is DFW, courtesy of AA Eagle.

From what I hear the MDT-DFW is doing well in its first couple of weeks.
 
gr8slvrflt
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:09 am

HPN is slot/gate restricted, I believe. When the chance came up suddenly, AirTran jumped on the opportunity that was unlikely to come again. AirTran was also buidling MDW and IND at the same time. I don't know how hard MDT took the change of plans but I imagine if AirTran was that close to starting service, they're like still interested. Plus if AirTran were to start MDT, you can bet Delta Connection would add a ton of new flights as well!
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
BatonOps
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:26 am

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 12):
Plus if AirTran were to start MDT, you can bet Delta Connection would add a ton of new flights as well!

Delta said they would bring back mainline serivce to MDT if FL entered the market.

It would be nice if FL came back...there is big market here that could handle a low cost carrier.
 
D L X
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 13):
there is big market here that could handle a low cost carrier.

Ugh. I hate this program. Harrisburg is surrounded by so-called LCCs. BWI, ABE, and PHL all have so-called LCCs within a 2 hour drive, and there's legacy service at MDT itself.

I don't see why people are okay with the government upsetting the free market like this. I bet it will be like FAT all over again - the airport takes the grant, gives it to the airline, which then takes the money and reneges on its promise.
 
steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting Gr8SlvrFlt (Reply 12):
HPN is slot/gate restricted, I believe. When the chance came up suddenly, AirTran jumped on the opportunity that was unlikely to come again. AirTran was also buidling MDW and IND at the same time. I don't know how hard MDT took the change of plans but I imagine if AirTran was that close to starting service, they're like still interested. Plus if AirTran were to start MDT, you can bet Delta Connection would add a ton of new flights as well!

I guess that explains why FL went to White Plains as opposed to MDT; I take it they were really interested in HPN as well as MDT, but given the restrictions at HPN, why wait... Makes sense, but dammit MDT could use a shot in the arm from a LCC...

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 13):
Delta said they would bring back mainline serivce to MDT if FL entered the market.

MD88 MDT-ATL? That would be nice...
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FATFlyer
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
I bet it will be like FAT all over again - the airport takes the grant, gives it to the airline, which then takes the money and reneges on its promise.

FAT-DEN on F9 started slow but has now been seeing loads in the 87-90% range. I would not be surprised to see Frontier look to increase capacity on the route in the not too distant future.

That will fulfill the original intent of the grant of creating a long-term presence by a low-fare carrier which is what Fresno wrote as the first goal in their application.
In conclusion, the funds requested will be focused on achieving permanent
improvements in air service for the region.
1. The Central California region currently has no access to a low fare carrier
network. This grant will rectify that challenge.


I would think it is better that F9 took time to develop the route and stay long-term now that the grant period is complete.

It would have been a waste of money if they had taken the revenue guarantee for a year and flown a larger aircraft then left when the grant ran out last month.

Instead FAT is getting a more permanent presence which is the real promise that was sought.

FYI, UA has been seeing loads at 85 to 90% also.
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N1120A
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
I don't see why people are okay with the government upsetting the free market like this.

Um, figure out where there is an actual free market first before casting stones at a piddly $400,000 grant to help make an under-utilized airport relieve traffic from a freakishly busy corridor.
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D L X
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 16):
It would have been a waste of money if they had taken the revenue guarantee for a year and flown a larger aircraft then left when the grant ran out last month.

They told the government that the grant they were requesting would be used to bring jet aircraft in. That was a lie. The money should be returned, imo.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Um, figure out where there is an actual free market first before casting stones at a piddly $400,000 grant to help make an under-utilized airport relieve traffic from a freakishly busy corridor.

Come on guy.  Smile This at MDT is only $400k, but it's still part of a $25M program that is designed to do this at various places. And what makes you think that it will relieve any traffic from elsewhere? Who from ABE, PHL, BWI, etc. will go to MDT to fly? As I said earlier, they already have LCCs.
 
777DadandJr
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
Who from ABE, PHL, BWI, etc. will go to MDT to fly?

I think the main objective is to keep passenger (locally)who are now going to BWI/PHL, at MDT instead.

Russ
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N1120A
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
This at MDT is only $400k, but it's still part of a $25M program that is designed to do this at various places. And what makes you think that it will relieve any traffic from elsewhere? Who from ABE, PHL, BWI, etc. will go to MDT to fly?

777DadandJR hit it on the head. People who drive from Harrisburg, Latrobe, Hershey, Lancaster, etc. will have the option of using MDT and saving time as opposed to slugging their way over to PHL, PIT or BWI. As it is, PHL has lots of delay problems and is over capacity while you can bowl down the runway at MDT. The program actually helps correct a problem with the market.
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FATFlyer
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 18):
They told the government that the grant they were requesting would be used to bring jet aircraft in. That was a lie. The money should be returned, imo.

Many times government changes plans in order to accomplish the main goal and keep to the budgeted amount. Think road and building plans for example.

So if bids for an airport construction project come in over budget, instead of making changes to the plan to get it built then all of the money should go back to the Federal Govt? Hhmm interesting thought. Maybe we should complain to Congress about those projects.

Lets look at what the FAT grant listed.

Quote:
Intent of The Grant
In this proposal, the Airport is requesting a grant of $1 million for a period of one year to attract and support viable low-fare service at Fresno Yosemite International. Preliminary discussions have been undertaken with the highest levels of management at Frontier Airlines for implementation of service to that carrier’s Denver hub. If implemented, this will immediately provide low-fare service to virtually all major destinations in the Northeast, Midwest, and Deep South.

Nothing in there about aircraft size. The primary goal is attract and support low-fare servce. That is also what the DOT commented on as the reason they selected the grant:

Quote:
This year, our awards to Fresno, Knoxville, and Charleston (South Carolina) will enable these communities to pursue their goal to secure lowfare air services. Fresno seeks service by Frontier to Denver and Knoxville and Charleston seek service by Air Tran. These awards will facilitate the first ever low-cost service at these communities or a restoration of low-fare service, providing a material benefit to a large segment of the public.

The DOTs reason for the grant also was accomplished (nothing about size mattering  Wink ), so  checkmark 

Fresno said they were asking Frontier for 2 daily roundtrips which they thought would be operated on the larger sized aircraft. The Horizon operated CR7 option did not exist in 2003 only Mesa operated CRJs. Given industry changes in the 2 years between grant and start it became a better option to accomplish the low-fare goal.

The CR7 has developed the FAT market so that now it appears Frontier will stay. That avoids the waste of funds that would occur if the flights stopped when the grant funds ended as happened elsewhere. And more capacity will probably be added as the route matures.

But the thing is I don't think you care. You like using this one as your poster child for problems because of one item in the entire application.

Forget the primary goal, it must have failed. Or maybe you just like to  stirthepot   Wink

Actually I think there are a lot of SCASD grants that you and I would agree on were bad. There have been times I think the DOT stretched reason just to allocate the funds.

But we will always disagree about FAT because I see that it accomplished the primary goal and you feel that does not matter.
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steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 20):
777DadandJR hit it on the head. People who drive from Harrisburg, Latrobe, Hershey, Lancaster, etc. will have the option of using MDT and saving time as opposed to slugging their way over to PHL, PIT or BWI. As it is, PHL has lots of delay problems and is over capacity while you can bowl down the runway at MDT. The program actually helps correct a problem with the market.

Bingo! On a similar note, the airport authority at PIT has been trying to lure LCCs to compete with US to lower fares to keep pax from driving to CLE... The same thing that MDT is trying to do basically. Since those efforts have begin, PIT now has WN and B6, along with USA3k, and Midwest Airways. (They also have Airtran, but that was while US still had the fortress hub forcing FL to drastically downsize...) Still, PIT has a quite a number of LCCs to increase competition, and MDT is essentially trying to do the same...

Figure this. I looked up US fares to see how MDT and PHL-PIT compare. It is more than twice as expensive to fly out of MDT as it is out of PHL. I believe it is the same flying elsewhere on some of those flights as well, considering that all the carriers at MDT are legacy carriers. Bring in a LCC to increase competition, drive fares lower, keep MDT flyers local. This could even drive up legacy service depending on demand. 777DadandJr said to me that DL would bring back mainline (to ATL, I would imagine) if FL enters MDT...
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N1120A
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
Bring in a LCC to increase competition, drive fares lower, keep MDT flyers local.

Not to mention the Southwest Effect and the subsequent market growth.
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BatonOps
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
777DadandJr said to me that DL would bring back mainline (to ATL, I would imagine) if FL enters MDT...

In January it was rumored that when FL was going to announce MDT that DL would announce the return of mainline service from MDT-ATL. I'm sure that would be the case again if FL decides to give MDT another shot.

MDT is an untapped market and is just waiting for that one carrier to take the plunge.
 
steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 24):
MDT is an untapped market and is just waiting for that one carrier to take the plunge.

A chain reaction like you wouldn't believe, man...  Smile
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D L X
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 21):
Nothing in there about aircraft size. The primary goal is attract and support low-fare servce.

Selective quoting. Please provide the link to the file. It was also about getting more flights East because Fresno authorities were annoyed that nearly all their flights went to LAS, PHX, LAX, and SFO etc. Fact is, the market doesn't support it. Frontier couldn't do it, even with the subsidy/revenue guarantee.

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 19):
think the main objective is to keep passenger (locally)who are now going to BWI/PHL, at MDT instead.

Good point, thanks. However, every little town can't have LCCs. Besides, doesn't US Airways fly to MDT in force? Are WN and B6 actually any cheaper to fly? Why target specific airlines?

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 21):
The Horizon operated CR7 option did not exist in 2003 only Mesa operated CRJs. Given industry changes in the 2 years between grant and start it became a better option to accomplish the low-fare goal.

I think that's a load, honestly. Do you really think they would have received the grant, when the request talked about significantly increasing the number of seats east, if the DOT knew that the number of seats would actually only be increased by 50 a day?

Quoting FATFlyer (Reply 21):
But we will always disagree about FAT because I see that it accomplished the primary goal and you feel that does not matter.

Probably. You measure the value of the program by how closely it achieved its amended goals. I measure the value of the program by the goals it sets.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
Still, PIT has a quite a number of LCCs to increase competition, and MDT is essentially trying to do the same...

Harrisburg and its surrounding communities are not NEARLY as populous as Pittsburgh metro. Don't you think it is an unrealistic goal for MDT to duplicate PIT? Also, don't you think that an LCC at MDT would deplete the profitability of LCCs at surrounding communities? LCCs make their profits by pulling from a large area. The so-called Southwest Effect still relies on a general paucity of LCC traffic at nearby airports.
 
steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:31 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
Harrisburg and its surrounding communities are not NEARLY as populous as Pittsburgh metro.

that was not my point to compare populations in the given metro areas... I was saying that PIT tried to keep its local pax, as many of them were fleeing to other markets, as people in MDT fled to BWI or PHL...

Quoting D L X (Reply 26):
think the main objective is to keep passenger (locally)who are now going to BWI/PHL, at MDT instead.

Good point, thanks. However, every little town can't have LCCs. Besides, doesn't US Airways fly to MDT in force? Are WN and B6 actually any cheaper to fly? Why target specific airlines?

Again... that was the point I was trying to expand upon... apparently I didn't do a very good job of it...
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D L X
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 27):
that was not my point to compare populations in the given metro areas.

Of course...

I know that wasn't your point - it's MY point. MDT cannot model itself after PIT because MDT serves a much smaller market than PIT does.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 27):
that was the point I was trying to expand upon.

Just giving credit to the first person that said it.
 
steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 28):
MDT cannot model itself after PIT because MDT serves a much smaller market than PIT does.

Right, the Harrisburgh-York-Lancaster Metro is roughly 1.5 million people. There is roughly that same amount in Allegheny County alone...
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Tango-Bravo
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Thread starter):
Just heard a blurb on the news that MDT (Harrisburg Int'l) has recieved a $400,000 federal grant to help provide incentives to attract LCC's to this tremendously under-utilized, state of the art airport.

A mere pittance when weighed against the de facto subsidies and impunity from anti-competition schemes that the legacies can throw at any LCC who dares to intrude on their turf at an airport that the legacies have succeeded in maintaining the way they like it, as one of their under-utilized and (presumably) over-priced fiefdoms. The LCCs seem to have wisened up to this reality and choose their new cities accordingly; will be interesting to see if any actually succomb to the 400K bait.

[Edited 2006-09-20 19:08:26]
 
steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 29):
the Harrisburgh-York-Lancaster Metro

Uhhhh... I am catching this error before anyone else does and  flamed  me for it later  silly 

It's "Harrisburg" without that "H" at the end of it Big grin

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 30):
The LCCs seem to have wisened up to this reality and choose their new cities accordingly; will be interesting to see if any actually succomb to the 400K bait.

Uh, sure whatever  sarcastic 
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supa7E7
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting BatonOps (Reply 24):
MDT is an untapped market and is just waiting for that one carrier to take the plunge.

MDT's leader (US) could well decide to slash fares at MDT. They are an LCC now, when it suits their mood.
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steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 32):
MDT's leader (US) could well decide to slash fares at MDT. They are an LCC now, when it suits their mood.

Sure, but do they have a reason/incentive for lowering their fares now? They don't have any competition on the routes out of MDT, nor does any airline really. They don't even have JFK or BOS service, and AA has a fairly large station in JFK. US has a focus city in BOS... LCCs bring competition to markets, and I thought competition was a good thing...
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777DadandJr
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 32):
MDT's leader (US) could well decide to slash fares at MDT.

I don't think they could afford to slash fares. I'm sure it costs US plenty to run 10x, yes, that's right, 10x daily to PHL !!! 90 miles, 10 flights!

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 33):
They don't have any competition on the routes out of MDT,

No, they don't.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 33):
nor does any airline really

Only AA and UA compete to ORD, and their fares are virtually identical. Between them, they run 10x daily to ORD.

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 33):
AA has a fairly large station in JFK.

....and they don't even fly there from MDT.


Russ
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Tango-Bravo
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 34):
I don't think they could afford to slash fares. I'm sure it costs US plenty to run 10x, yes, that's right, 10x daily to PHL !!! 90 miles, 10 flights!

They can afford to if they have enough captive markets elsewhere to "cross-subsidize" (that's Michael Boyd-speak for fare gouging) their losses in whatever markets they once had to themselves but now face competition.

Also, one can be sure that US will suddenly discover a previously overlooked urgent need for non-stop service from MDT to whatever market(s) a new entrant serves from same. And if/when they succeed in driving out the eeeeeeeeeevil LCC competitor(s), be equally assured that US will just as quickly discover that the urgent need for new non-stop routes and lower fares (both of which "just happen" to copycat the new entrant LCC) was not so urgent after all and promptly revert to business as usual by dropping the new route(s) started as a totally disingenuous "competitive response" and raise fares back to levels that prompted MDT to dangle 400K in front of LCCs in hopes of creating some meaningful competition in what is essentially a captive market.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:43 am

This is the Genie you can't put back in the bottle. I can see a couple airports up here in New England--Worcester and Pease--angling for some money under the same sort of 'trouble' attracting LCCs. Hopefully it won't turn into the proverbial slippery slope.

Chris in NH
 
B777-700
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:26 am

Here's a crazy idea...If they have all this money to blow, how about giving that money to subsidize the legacies that already serve these second teir cities, and get them to lower their fares if that's the problem?
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
coerj
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:57 am

UA would not fly from MDT to DEN. DEN is a west coast hub that serves small and large markets in the west, with only select large markets in the east. Most airports the size of MDT do not have service to DEN as it is for major markets only.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:02 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 37):
Here's a crazy idea...If they have all this money to blow, how about giving that money to subsidize the legacies that already serve these second teir cities, and get them to lower their fares if that's the problem?

Because the legacies aren't willing to do this. This idea has been floated before, but the legacies haven't shown any interest.
 
B777-700
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 39):
Because the legacies aren't willing to do this. This idea has been floated before, but the legacies haven't shown any interest.

So the legacies would rather have a subsidized LCC come in and destroy their yields?

I'm gonna have to ask you for documentation on that claim.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 34):
Only AA and UA compete to ORD, and their fares are virtually identical. Between them, they run 10x daily to ORD.



Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 34):
AA has a fairly large station in JFK.

....and they don't even fly there from MDT.

So I suppose that MDT-ORD is well served by AA and UA, assuming the fares are reasonable...

AA has a large station; DL has a big one as well at JFK... We even discussed that when we spotted at MDT a month and a half back. That is supremely sad if you ask me. The largest O&D pool in the country, and you have to fly to PIT, or drive 1.5 to 2 hours to fly out of BWI or PHL to get to NYC...

Oh yeah, doesn't CO fly to CLE only? Hellooooo!!! MDT-EWR anybody???

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 39):
Because the legacies aren't willing to do this. This idea has been floated before, but the legacies haven't shown any interest.

Why would they want to lower fares... To them, lowering fares for whatever reason would be an outrage, from the way I see it anyway from looking at all these threads; other ppl's opinions...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
777DadandJr
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:10 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 41):
MDT-ORD is well served by AA and UA, assuming the fares are reasonable...

Current fare is $322.00 (IMO, not "reasonable") BWI-ORD, currently, $138.00,
PHL-ORD, $237.00
Can you see why locals flock to "the other airport"

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 41):
Oh yeah, doesn't CO fly to CLE only?

Yes, and get this: Once, I looked to see if I could fly to NYC. I checked CO. Here was my routing: MDT-CLE-DTW-ERI-EWR ! 11 1/2 hours!  rotfl 

I guess CO is not "focusing" much on MDT.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again: If UA would cut their fare by even 15%, they could pack those ORD bound flight, even add mailine service.

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 40):
So the legacies would rather have a subsidized LCC come in and destroy their yields?

Have you seen the way legacies run themselves over the last few decades? Have you noticed that almost all of them have gone BK? Nobody said the folks running these carriers were particularly smart.

The problem with offering the subsidies to the legacies is that it wouldn't last. The subsidies would get sucked up and then the legacy would return to its old pricing scheme. Keep in mind that many of these smaller markets (like MDT) are served purely by RJ's. RJ's and low-fares aren't really a great combo.
 
steeler83
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 42):
Yes, and get this: Once, I looked to see if I could fly to NYC. I checked CO. Here was my routing: MDT-CLE-DTW-ERI-EWR ! 11 1/2 hours!

What the hell?!?!?!?!?!?! You might as well fly to ROME!

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 42):
I guess CO is not "focusing" much on MDT.

Apparently not!!!

Quoting 777DadandJr (Reply 42):
I have said it before, and I'll say it again: If UA would cut their fare by even 15%, they could pack those ORD bound flight, even add mailine service.

*scoffs* And is UA or any legacy willing to do such a thing? The way I see it, wouldn't that result in an overall gain, considering that the added pax would offset that slender loss and then some?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
Have you seen the way legacies run themselves over the last few decades? Have you noticed that almost all of them have gone BK?



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
Keep in mind that many of these smaller markets (like MDT) are served purely by RJ's. RJ's and low-fares aren't really a great combo.

YYAH! Case en point: Independence Air... They should have gone all A319/320 aircraft and ditched the rjs...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
B777-700
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
Have you seen the way legacies run themselves over the last few decades? Have you noticed that almost all of them have gone BK? Nobody said the folks running these carriers were particularly smart.

The gov't subsidy thing is a recent trend. Besides, this is apples and oranges, and your remark wouldn't apply in these cases. It's one thing when an LCC come into a city that a legacy serves. That's free market competition. It's something totally different when an LCC comes into a legacies market and is guaranteed by that city to operate at a profit.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 43):
The problem with offering the subsidies to the legacies is that it wouldn't last. The subsidies would get sucked up and then the legacy would return to its old pricing scheme. Keep in mind that many of these smaller markets (like MDT) are served purely by RJ's. RJ's and low-fares aren't really a great combo.

That wouldn't be like Air Tran bailing on TLH and GSO once the subsidies stopped, now would it?  Wink

Oh if Otto wasn't banned he'd be blasting you out of the water now.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
gsoflyer
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RE: MDT Recieves Fed Grant To Attract LCC's

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:57 am

When are we going to learn, subsidies don't work and are anti-capitalism.