USADreamliner
Topic Author
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Why No Flights Between Luxembourg and N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:30 am

I remember years ago, Loftleidir used to fly from Luxembourg (via Reykjavik) to North America, and I think Aeroflot used to fly there as a stop to transatlantic destinations.
There is no market or simply too much competence from nearby major airports?


usadreamliner
 
A342
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Why No Flights Between Luxembourg and N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:36 am

Small market, connection opportunities available.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
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Why No Flights Between Luxembourg and N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:39 am

No market, LUX is a small place and pax flying long haul from LUX either connect at another airport or fly from BRU (about 2 hours away), CGN (about the same) or CDG (a bit futher)......interestingly, some holiday flights marketed in LUX actually depart from CDG and passengers are transfered by motor coach. The area around LUX is also not very populated......thus, there is not the mass to support longhaul services (even short haul services are limited and Luxair, the national airline, is once again having money problems and may dump their 737NG fleet.)

About 5 or 6 years ago, Luxair contracted with Citybird, the now defunct Belgian charter carrier, to operate a 763ER 3 or 4 times per week on the LUX-EWR route....Citybird would position the airplane from BRU to LUX for the flight. The flight lasted one season......and even with rock bottom fares (as low as $99 each way), the airplanes were very empty.

Back in the Icelandair days,,,,,they were one of the very few budget choices between the US and Europe.....this was before web fares, advance purchase fares, etc. Usually two flights operated between Iceland and LUX...filled with pax that originated in the USA. From LUX, pax would use their Eurorail passes and travel to cities throughout Europe.....different times. There was also the Internatinal Air Bahama subsidiary........flights with DC8-60s flew NAS-Iceland-LUX several times per week....many pax from FLorida would fly to Nassau to pick up this inexpensive service.
 
oldeuropean
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Why No Flights Between Luxembourg and N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:40 am

A country with less than 500,000 people generates not enough demand for such flights. BRU, AMS, DUS, CGN and perhaps also, by high speed trains, CDG and FRA are to near.

So, yes no market and to much competition.

Axel

[Edited 2006-09-16 21:47:42]
Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
 
CXA330300
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:42 am

They do operate. See CargoLux.

As for passenger flights, ask yourself if a country of 500,000 with three major international airports a short distance away has a market for transatlantic flights. And see the financial health of Luxair.
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soups
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:43 am

Any current passenger flights outside europe from LUX?
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:46 am

Quoting Soups (Reply 5):
Any current passenger flights outside europe from LUX?

Luxair does some charter work with their 737NGs.....there could be some flights to European holiday destinations in Egypt, Israel, Northern Africa, etc. I am guessing here.....but as far as I know, that would be the only possible pax operations destinations outside of Europe from LUX.
 
Chugach
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 4):

Cargolux used to, or maybe still do, refuel in FAI on their LUX-Asia flights. I believe they were in PDX for a time, too (cargo).
GO ROCKETS
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:49 am

So what's the flight time, (if their is any) from LUX to BRU:CDG: or FRA?
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patroni
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Chugach (Reply 7):
Cargolux used to, or maybe still do, refuel in FAI on their LUX-Asia flights. I believe they were in PDX for a time, too (cargo).

FAI is still on as tech stop. Other CV USA destinations (all cargo) include JFK, ORD, IND, IAH, SEA, SFO, LAX.

For passengers, LUX had its last connection to JFK for a short period of time in spring 2003 (I think) when RO served the route OTP-LUX-JFK with their A310-300. Obviously not successful as they pulled out after only two months.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:00 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
About 5 or 6 years ago, Luxair contracted with Citybird, the now defunct Belgian charter carrier, to operate a 763ER 3 or 4 times per week on the LUX-EWR route....Citybird would position the airplane from BRU to LUX for the flight. The flight lasted one season......and even with rock bottom fares (as low as $99 each way), the airplanes were very empty.

I'm surprised anyone in here still remembers this venture. It was in the summer of 1999 when a Citybird B763ER would fly thrice weekly between LUX and EWR. The result was indeed disastrous and I remember one particular flight with just about 4 passengers taking of from LUX for EWR.
 
Avatordon
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:14 am

Didn't Icelandair also fly nonstop from JFK to LUX at one point? I remember how odd it was because they were bypassing their home country.
 
sw733
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:07 pm

LUX is a wonderful place, with a nice airport, but absolutely no need for international (non-regional/non-European, that is) traffic. It's so easy to get there on train from multiple cities with extensive international service, such as CDG, BRU, and even FRA a little further down the road. The time I went to Luxembourg, I came in on train from London via Brussels, and out to Paris...quick, easy, convenient, fairly cheap
 
goldorak
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:13 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 8):
So what's the flight time, (if their is any) from LUX to BRU:CDG: or FRA?

Luxair operates 5 daily flights LUX-CDG, code-shared with AF, flight time is 55 min including taxi times.
 
patroni
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:16 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 8):
So what's the flight time, (if their is any) from LUX to BRU:CDG: or FRA?

Flight time to FRA or CDG is about 25-30min, Block time as Goldorak said just below one hour. Flights to AMS take a bit more than one hour (KL F50). There are no more flights to BRU since SN folded, but they used to be around 25min flying time as well (ATR-72 or DH-8).

From next year, LUX will be connected with Paris via a TGV (high speep train) link which takes a bit more than 2 hours, so the LUX-CDG flights will face severe competition.... The train to FRA takes very long as no high speed track in this direction.
 
ContinentalEWR
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:50 pm

LUXAIR flew nonstop from Luxembourg to Newark for six months in 1998 using a leased B767-300ER. The route flopped.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
About 5 or 6 years ago, Luxair contracted with Citybird, the now defunct Belgian charter carrier, to operate a 763ER 3 or 4 times per week on the LUX-EWR route....Citybird would position the airplane from BRU to LUX for the flight. The flight lasted one season......and even with rock bottom fares (as low as $99 each way), the airplanes were very empty.



Quoting ContinentalEWR (Reply 15):
LUXAIR flew nonstop from Luxembourg to Newark for six months in 1998 using a leased B767-300ER. The route flopped.

Worse than a flop.........lets say a disaster.
 
JoFMO
Posts: 1840
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. Ameri

Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:20 pm

I could see CO giving LUX a try with a 757.

Luxembourg itself is a tiny country with 500.000 inhabitants, but if you include nearby Saarland Region in Germany and Lorraine Region in France (both are densly populated) you easily get 1.5 Mio 100km around LUX.

And it should also be noted that Luxembourg as a country has the highest GDP per capita in Europe. It is a big financial centre and hosts a lot of EU authorities.

A connection between the banking centres New York and LUX could work. Maybe it is difficult to fill the cheap places, but up front it should deliver a healthy yield.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
I could see CO giving LUX a try with a 757.

CO is not giving LUX a try. This is why:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):

I'm surprised anyone in here still remembers this venture. It was in the summer of 1999 when a Citybird B763ER would fly thrice weekly between LUX and EWR. The result was indeed disastrous and I remember one particular flight with just about 4 passengers taking of from LUX for EWR.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
No market, LUX is a small place and pax flying long haul from LUX either connect at another airport or fly from BRU (about 2 hours away), CGN (about the same) or CDG (a bit futher)......interestingly, some holiday flights marketed in LUX actually depart from CDG and passengers are transfered by motor coach. The area around LUX is also not very populated......thus, there is not the mass to support longhaul services (even short haul services are limited and Luxair, the national airline, is once again having money problems and may dump their 737NG fleet.)

LUX has trouble supporting flights to European capitals, never mind a transatlantic link.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
but if you include nearby Saarland Region in Germany

Who fly out of German airports.....mainly CGN or DUS.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
Lorraine Region in France

Who fly out of French airports.....mainly CDG/ORY where nonstop flights are offered to just about every major worldwide destination.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
And it should also be noted that Luxembourg as a country has the highest GDP per capita in Europe. It is a big financial centre and hosts a lot of EU authorities

Who utilize BRU.

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 17):
A connection between the banking centres New York and LUX could work. Maybe it is difficult to fill the cheap places, but up front it should deliver a healthy yield.

New concept.....raise prices to increase demand?

-------

Most longhaul traffic to/from LUX simply uses BRU which is about 2 hours from the center of Luxembourg......not very far. Those who live in the areas surrounding Luxembourg generally use the airport in their country that is closest to their home. So simple is it.
 
JoFMO
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):
I'm surprised anyone in here still remembers this venture. It was in the summer of 1999 when a Citybird B763ER would fly thrice weekly between LUX and EWR. The result was indeed disastrous and I remember one particular flight with just about 4 passengers taking of from LUX for EWR.

You can't compare a citybird 767 in 1999 with a CO 757 2006.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
LUX has trouble supporting flights to European capitals, never mind a transatlantic link.

Thats because Luxembourgs major airports are Hahn and Charleroi. LUX itself is maily used for business traffic.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):

Who fly out of German airports.....mainly CGN or DUS.

Better have a look on the map. Saarland is aprox. 300km away form CGN and DUS. And there is neither a motorway nor a fast railway.
Saarland uses Hahn for short haul and FRA for lonhaul. But even FRA is a 2 hours ride by car.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Who fly out of French airports.....mainly CDG/ORY where nonstop flights are offered to just about every major worldwide destination.

Here also a look on the map could help. Metz and Nancy are far away by car from Paris. AF just announced that they will stop flying to there once the TGV is inaugurated. And the two daily trains to CDG don't offer an equal replacement.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
New concept.....raise prices to increase demand?

You want to misunderstand me? I haven't said anything about raising prices.
I expressed my doubts about filling the back but less doubts about filling the front.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Who utilize BRU.

I agree that BRU is the real hurdle to overcome for LUX. But if there is a flight LUX-EWR with CO les Luxembourgoise will certainly use this flight to New York and Nort America in favor of travelling to BRU, CDG and FRA. And the same happens for people from Saarland and Lorraine. If that is enough for a daily CO to EWR, I don't know. But it certainly makes sense to valueate it.
 
dj1986
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:23 am

I have also heard from a Luxair Travel Agency that people were not happy with the service on the LUX-EWR run operated by Citybird. From what they told me it was a huge difference to the normal Luxair service. They also told me that a big company from Luxembourg (Logistics) tried the direct flight instead of going via FRA with LH but after only 2 flights of some managers in C they were going via FRA again. I can't proof that because I never have flown Citybird.
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BigGSFO
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:39 am

LUX had it's day in the sun as a transatlantic gateway, thanks to Icelandair. Icelandair promoted LUX as the European destination for the budget conscious and the multitudes of US college students doing the "backpacking through Europe" right of passage. They didn't care where in Europe the were dropped off/picked up, so long as the fare across the pond was cheap. Icelandiar filled that market nicely. In fact (I think it was during the 1980's), FI offered non-stop JFK-LUX in addition to connections via KEF.

Today, the US-Europe market has changed and LUX no longer meets the need of the marketplace. Open Skies in a few countries, competition and the accessibility of low fares on just about every airline provide even the most budget conscious consumer a choice of destinations, gateways and carriers.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting Dj1986 (Reply 20):
I have also heard from a Luxair Travel Agency that people were not happy with the service on the LUX-EWR run operated by Citybird. From what they told me it was a huge difference to the normal Luxair service. They also told me that a big company from Luxembourg (Logistics) tried the direct flight instead of going via FRA with LH but after only 2 flights of some managers in C they were going via FRA again. I can't proof that because I never have flown Citybird.

These remarks come as no surprise as the Citybird B763ERs were basically in charter configuration and Luxair apparently sold Citybird's premium class, which was really no more than a premium economy product, as a full fare transatlantic business class. Apart from that, Citybird was not exactly known for its professionalism in onboard service.

Sabena occasionally deployed the Citybird B763s on their BRU-JNB route when one of the leased MD11s - leased from Citybird, btw - was facing technical problems once again, and it was sheer torture to be on those planes for 12 hours. I personally experiences it twice.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:57 am

Why?


Because I only go to Luxembourg once every 5 years or so, and no airline is going to open the route just for me unless I do it weekly...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:02 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 23):
Because I only go to Luxembourg once every 5 years or so, and no airline is going to open the route just for me unless I do it weekly...

That often? Wow....
 sarcastic 
 
flight7e7
Posts: 96
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:03 am

I fondly recall in 1978, the FI DC-8 61 ride from JFK/LUX/JFK during the height of the summer season, bunch of us flew R/T from JFK-$198.00 per person. Those screaming P and W's sounded capable (especially at V1) of taking you to the moon! Lifting off into a warm, cloudless-moonlit night, nosing east over the vast black of the North Atlantic, vectoring to Gander, excited about the journey ahead-part of the fun of getting there.

Legroom, excellent (2) hot meals, free spirits -yes that type too! (no overhead bins though  Smile/those were the days).... And the service was impeccable. Friendly, efficient and courteous. LUX was a fantastic hub-you can get anywhere in Europe within 1-5 hours after landing, and still had enough left to have a weiner schnitzel and kalbsalat at Greichenspiel in Vienna! You also made some lifelong friends-everyone having the same goals and wallets.

Those behind us today really did miss the glory days of aviation! Thanks for the memories LUX and FI!

Cheers!  Smile  Wink
 
cptGirmayTesfa
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:16 am

Someone remembers the Luxair 747SP flight Luxembourg-Johannesburg ?
Must have been somewhere in the early 90s.
 
hoosiercfi
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RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 21):
LUX had it's day in the sun as a transatlantic gateway, thanks to Icelandair. Icelandair promoted LUX as the European destination for the budget conscious and the multitudes of US college students doing the "backpacking through Europe" right of passage. They didn't care where in Europe the were dropped off/picked up, so long as the fare across the pond was cheap.

I can attest to this. Courtesy of Airhitch, I flew JFK-KEF-LUX-KEF-BWI back in 98. Flight going over was packed, but I think that it was because the JFK-KEF flight was so grossly overbooked, that they brought in a second 757 that night. Flight back from LUX was empty, maybe 50% full. Same story with the other time I flew the route (both ways). If Icelandair still had 737's as part of their international fleet, I could see LUX possibly coming back, but there just isn't enought demand to fill a 757.
 
dutchjet
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Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting JoFMO (Reply 19):

I agree that BRU is the real hurdle to overcome for LUX. But if there is a flight LUX-EWR with CO les Luxembourgoise will certainly use this flight to New York and Nort America in favor of travelling to BRU, CDG and FRA. And the same happens for people from Saarland and Lorraine. If that is enough for a daily CO to EWR, I don't know. But it certainly makes sense to valueate it.

I do know that CO has evaluated many European markets, and LUX will not be seeing nonstop service.....the small population, regarless of their income level, simply cannot support the flight, there simply is not the demand. The residents of neighboring countries use airports in the home nations, since thats what they are accustomed to. Even all of those banks in LUX cannot support the service......surprisingly, they do not generate much travel.

By the way, if you book a BizFirst ticket on CO in or out of BRU, they will gladly send a car to pick you up and drop you off in LUX.
 
dj1986
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:25 pm

RE: Why No Flights Between Luxembourg And N. America?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22):
These remarks come as no surprise as the Citybird B763ERs were basically in charter configuration and Luxair apparently sold Citybird's premium class, which was really no more than a premium economy product, as a full fare transatlantic business class. Apart from that, Citybird was not exactly known for its professionalism in onboard service.

Sabena occasionally deployed the Citybird B763s on their BRU-JNB route when one of the leased MD11s - leased from Citybird, btw - was facing technical problems once again, and it was sheer torture to be on those planes for 12 hours. I personally experiences it twice.

That leads to the question why Luxair choose Citybird to operate these routes. If they offered a "Premium Economy" for sale as Business it really is not surprising that even the few C-Pax they had on that route were running away. There must have been more carriers which would have operated under such a wetleasing agreement?! I think that Lauda Air at that time would have been the much better choice service wise.
US Airways I miss you!

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