af773atmsp
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Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:48 am

Runway 4/22 at MSP doesn't look busy at all. I have seen a couple of Saabs and DC-9s takeoff, a couple of 747s taking off, and one DC-9 land. Why does it seem like runway 4/22 isn't very busy?
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
norjet
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:06 am

1. Prevailing winds are usually from the NW or SE, so 12/30 L&R are favorably positioned, likewise the new 17/35.

2. Use of 4/22 cuts off all traffic on 12/30 and 17/35. MSP's traffic would back up considerably if restricted to just one runway for any considerable length of time.

3. Takeoffs on 4 send aircraft directly over St. Paul's Highland Park neighborhood, known for its persnicketyness about airplane noise. Likewise 22 sends traffic over Prestigious West Bloomington. (Folks in South Minneapolis, Richfield, East Bloomington, and Eagan have been living with the noise forever now and home values are accordingly market priced. If significantly more traffic were routed over HP / PWB the real estate market would be screaming.)

4. As such, 4/22 is usually used only in times of unusual wind, and as mentioned, for the daily 744 rotations to NRT, where a long takeoff roll is needed. Spotters without radios know to watch for the calm which comes over the airport just before takeoff, as activity on all other runways pauses.

Hope this helps.
--Scott
Publishing travel advice for adopting families - to justify being an airline geek
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:20 am

The 747s that take off on 4/22 scream over my house. I just saw one flying over. I ran as fast as I could to see it. I also saw one DC-10 take off on that runway which was odd.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
N908AW
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:34 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 2):
The 747s that take off on 4/22 scream over my house. I just saw one flying over. I ran as fast as I could to see it. I also saw one DC-10 take off on that runway which was odd.

Yeah the heavies will do that. I've seen DC-10s scream down 22 and scare the bejeezes outta me because it looks like a runaway aircraft amidst the 12L/12R operations.
'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
 
flyf15
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting Norjet (Reply 1):
2. Use of 4/22 cuts off all traffic on 12/30 and 17/35. MSP's traffic would back up considerably if restricted to just one runway for any considerable length of time.

Hit the nail on the head. This is by far the main reason.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:15 am

There's a scene in the movie, Airport, that makes me laugh everytime I see it. A family is sitting at the dinner table in their home. The father/husband begins to say grace. Suddenly, everything starts shaking and rattling as an aircraft takes off on runway 22. In mid-sentence, the prayer quickly changes to cursing as the man holds onto the table for dear life.

It's so true! In reality, the NIMBYs and the MAC were fighting it out regarding takeoffs on 22 when the movie was released.



Mark

[Edited 2006-09-17 00:24:05]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
pilottim747
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:37 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 2):
The 747s that take off on 4/22 scream over my house. I just saw one flying over. I ran as fast as I could to see it. I also saw one DC-10 take off on that runway which was odd.

DC-10s do occasionally take-off from Runway 4/22. This usually happens with heavy flights and hot weather (ie summer).

The above responses are correct. Using Runway 4/22 does not give MSP air traffic controllers an operational advantage. You need to stop traffic on any crossing runway to use Rwy 4/22. With Rwy 17/35 now in use, the use of Rwy 4/22 is even rarer than normal. Additionally, the runway was closed for about 1/2 a year while a tunnel was built underneath the runway.

What happens when all of MSP is reduced to just Runway 4/22? Check it out:

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Photo © Timothy Hannan

Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:51 pm

Quoting Norjet (Reply 1):

3. Takeoffs on 4 send aircraft directly over St. Paul's Highland Park neighborhood, known for its persnicketyness about airplane noise. Likewise 22 sends traffic over Prestigious West Bloomington. (Folks in South Minneapolis, Richfield, East Bloomington, and Eagan have been living with the noise forever now and home values are accordingly market priced. If significantly more traffic were routed over HP / PWB the real estate market would be screaming.)

Yep - I live in one your "persnickety" neighborhoods. I promise you, they still send pleny of air traffic over my house. Unless it's a DC-9 or DC-10, it's not really audible at the altitude it overflies. I hear the DC-9s from 4/22 going over my edina office all day. HP and PWB are far enough out it wouldn't be an issue. The big issue has more to do with wind, and the fact that doing 4/22 would slow busy MSP traffic down.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Sun Sep 17, 2006 10:26 pm

One time a DC-9 was very low (lower than when the 747s go over my house) and it wasn't a plane taking off on 4/22. Although there might have been a problem so they landed at Eden Prairie Flying Cloud. Anyway it was turning a lot. At first I thought the pilots had know idea where they were going. Can anyone explain this?
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 8):
Can anyone explain this?

Go-arounds from 30L.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
SESGDL
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:20 am

It was common back in the summers of 1999-2002 for 4/22 to be the only runway in use at MSP. It was dreadful from a spotters point of view.

Jeremy
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:41 am

I was always hoping that a KLM 747 would scream over my house. But thinks to NW's codeshare service that may never happen.  Sad
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 11):
I was always hoping that a KLM 747 would scream over my house. But thinks to NW's codeshare service that may never happen.

KLM could be back. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened sooner than later. I always liked N237NW in the half-and-half livery.


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There hasn't been a KL 747 at MSP since July 7, 2004, when they upgraded from an MD11 for their daily flight to AMS.

I learned something new today. It looks like 747's don't always depart on 4/22. I always thought they did. Here, a KL 742 takes off on 12R and a USAF VC-25A departs on 12L. That must have been quite a surprise for motorists on Highway 5 !


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Photo © Timothy Hannan



Mark

[Edited 2006-09-18 02:05:20]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
dkf747
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:50 am

I used to go spotting at MSP regularly from 1991-1996 and 747 take-offs on 4/22 were very rare then. Most 747s used both runways 30/12 (right numbers?) so I doubt people on highway 5 were very surprised.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Mon Sep 18, 2006 9:58 am

Does anyone know if a KLM a/c ever took off on 4/22? If some did then I probably missed them because I wasn't interested in aviation back then. So when one of those big jets flew over I would just be doing something else.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
n808nwatmsp
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 14):
Does anyone know if a KLM a/c ever took off on 4/22?

From what I recall, no. I've been spotting KL since '99 and I only recall the AMS flight using 12R/30L.
 
pilottim747
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 14):
Does anyone know if a KLM a/c ever took off on 4/22?

Yes, I distinctly remember the MSP-AMS flight taking off on Runway 4/22 occasionally. I might even have a photo of KLM on 4/22, I'd have to dig through some old photos.
Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 12):
I learned something new today. It looks like 747's don't always depart on 4/22. I always thought they did. Here, a KL 742 takes off on 12R and a USAF VC-25A departs on 12L. That must have been quite a surprise for motorists on Highway 5 !

NW 744s to NRT depart from 12R/30L all the time in the fall/winter. It's only usually in hot conditions or when the aircraft is extra heavy that they use 4/22.

Jeremy
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:32 am

I've noticed that the 747s only takeoff on 4/22 during the summer. I think in June I went to MSP and I noticed a 747 turning torwards concourse E. Ten minutes later the 747 took off on 4/22.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:37 am

Not to get off topic but who agrees that KL will fly back to MSP? I don't like the NW code share service. And the list of airlines that fly to MSP have KL even though I say KL does not fly to MSP.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:38 pm

It's rare to see a heavy require 22 when the weather gets cooler... a 10000 foot runway like 30L/12R is typically more than enough. Even in the summer it is not uncommon for the 747's to be able to use 30L/12R.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
centrair
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:43 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 5):

Off topic. That picture is classic. I remember going to MSP to pick up my grandma and parking in a parking lot...no garage. The terminal was soooo small then and it was like in the countryside.

On topic: I think I have only seen a plane land and take off once from 4/22. But knew they were landing there. When I was at Hamline, the flight from Tokyo flew over us on direct path for 4/22. Flew over during microecon...best part of the class.

[Edited 2006-09-19 06:58:52]
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
dc10s4ever
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:49 pm

Dont you remember the picketing going on infront of the airport while Joe Patroni was trying to dig a 707 out of the snow???? "Close down runway twenty-two..."
 
dkf747
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 14):
Does anyone know if a KLM a/c ever took off on 4/22?

Oh yes, I have seen them use that runway several times over the years. I remember an MD-11 flight arriving on that runway with my friends on board once. They took off on the same runway a week later.
 
Jawed
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):

On topic: I think I have only seen a plane land and take off once from 4/22. But knew they were landing there. When I was at Hamline, the flight from Tokyo flew over us on direct path for 4/22. Flew over during microecon...best part of the class.

Cool. Out of curiosity, how do you generally figure out which flights correspond to a given flightpath or vice versa? When I look at planes that pass my house I have no idea where they are coming from, or where they are going. But it would be interesting to know. How do i find this out? Flightaware doesn't offer enough resolution for me to be able to narrow that down.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:39 am

NW's 747s that are at MSP always go to NRT. When I was younger I went to this pool and almost every time we would go there a 747 would take off. The 747s that went over the pool took off on 4/22. I always thought they were going to HKG or some other Asian place. But now I know.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
charlienorth
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:45 am

I grew up in Bloomington..pre hub days...lived under the approach to RWY 4 loved to sit and watch the "iron" flyover,it was when there was a good mix of aircraft,not just red tail,and a lot of props...used to get yelled at for watching airplanes and not what's going on the field!!
Work hard fly right..don't understand it
 
pilottim747
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RE: Why Is Runway 4/22 At MSP Not That Busy?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 25):
NW's 747s that are at MSP always go to NRT. When I was younger I went to this pool and almost every time we would go there a 747 would take off. The 747s that went over the pool took off on 4/22. I always thought they were going to HKG or some other Asian place. But now I know.

Besides MSP-NRT, NW used to operate MSP-KIX for a few years in the late 1990s and they flew MSP-HKG in 1997-1998 (at that time the world's longest commercial flight on a year-round basis).

pilottim747
Aviation Photographers & Enthusiasts--Coordinate your life.