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JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:02 pm

I recently made my first Japanese domestic flight on a 777-200. (I was meant to be on an A300-600 but you can't win 'em all...) My plane was a sometime JAS model (a 777-289).

I note that the 777-200s (i.e. NOT ERs) that JAL bought (before the merger with JAS) have PW4077s whereas the JAS 777-200s have PW4084s. For the record, the ANA domestic 777-200s use PW4084s too.

Since all three airlines were buying 777-200s for very similar domestic networks and all three chose PW, I'd have thought that all three would have independently concluded that the PW40XX was the 'right' engine.

Any idea why JAL went for the ....77 but the other two went for the ....84?
 
centrair
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:39 pm

I never knew that JAS had operated 777s. I thought their largest aircraft had been the A300.

I bet Carpethead or Katchiya can answer this question.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:12 pm

Centrair, I can't believe you've never heard of the 'Rainbow Seven'  Wink



According to some back issues of AIRLINE magazine, JAL went for the 4077 because it was lighter and their initial batch of 777-246s weren't going to be used outside of Japan at all.

I would guess that JAS went for the PW4084 in case of the occasional charter to Hawaii as they did operate a handful of them from time to time out of HND.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
jfk777
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:45 am

Those Rainbow 777 are the best looking 777 around.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 3):

Amen to that. Besides the star alliance liverys, this is one of my favorites.

Centrair,

I only found out last year.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
ktachiya
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:52 am

I don't know exactly WHY they went for the different engine types. One thing that I can say is that JAL's 777-200 were cerftified for a shorter flying distance and maximum weight than JAS. I can only think JL went for those engines because maybe the cruise speed of the ac was just a bit faster? Just for your information:

JAL: 4740 km and maximum take-off weight 230 tons and cruise speed 905 kmph

JAS: 5000 km and maximum take-off weight 208 tons and cruise speed of 893 kmph

ANA: 3580 km and maximum take-off weight 202.9 tons and cruise speed 890 kmph

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):
I would guess that JAS went for the PW4084 in case of the occasional charter to Hawaii as they did operate a handful of them from time to time out of HND

I think with 5000 km, JAS wouldn't have been able to make it. Actually, they operated two DC-10-30 (that went to NW). They were trying to start int'l routes with these two ac but only occasionally flew on domestic runs and were quickly sold to NW.

Contrary to what I thought before, JL has the highest MTOW and cruise speed. It could have been for a different purpose. But what is interesting is that when they first received these non ER versions, they were operating the MD-11 side by side and reserved the T7 exclusively for their domestic network.
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AirbusA6
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:45 am

There was a rumour that ANA were going to order Trents, but pulled out at the last minute after BA shocked the world by choosing the GE90, an order thought to end RR's participation in the big fan race...I guess it must have been sweet to win the order to power ANA's 787s!
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 6):
There was a rumour that ANA were going to order Trents, but pulled out at the last minute after BA shocked the world by choosing the GE90

Explaining their decision not to order the Trent 800s they had been favouring, ANA said that they didn't want to end up with a 777 fleet with a "niche engine". Ironic that PW now have the smallest share of the programme.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 6):
I guess it must have been sweet to win the order to power ANA's 787s!

A very important order for RR to win.

Bear in mind that Japanese firms have significant percentages of the various Trent models. That must have helped RR sell them in Japan.
 
MarkC
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:14 am

Actually, there is no 4084. There is a 4084D. Its a derated 4090. Neither JAS, JAL, or ANA operate 4084D's.

I will double check, but I thought JAL, JAS, and ANA all have 4074/77's and only JAL and ANA also have 4090's.

The 4090 engine has an extra LPC and LPT stage over the 4074/77.

There are only a few 4084D's around, and for that matter 4077D's (which are also derated 4090's), and they are not in Japan.

That being said, I do not know a lot of history. You can turn a 4084D into a 4090 in a few minutes. JAS may have originally bought the 4084D, then converted it.
 
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting MarkC (Reply 8):
Neither JAS, JAL, or ANA operate 4084D's.

I think they do...

Quoting MarkC (Reply 8):
I will double check, but I thought JAL, JAS, and ANA all have 4074/77's

Not according to my sources. Where will you check?

Quoting MarkC (Reply 8):
There are only a few 4084D's around...

I count 37 - Vietnam Airlines, JAL, ANA and Air China.

Quote:
...and for that matter 4077D's

28, I believe, originally ordered by UA and JAL.

This may be an argument over semantics. But if an airline calls its engine a 4077 (or whatever) then that's what I'll call it too.
 
MarkC
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:12 pm

If you really want to know I will PM you.

Why do you want to know?
 
ha763
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:11 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 9):
Not according to my sources. Where will you check?

According to ANA's website, they have the 4074 on their non-ER 772s. JAL's website shows the 4074/4077 for their non-ER 772s.

http://www.ana.co.jp/eng/aboutana/co...porate/galleryclassi/1983/772.html
http://www.jal.com/en/corporate/gaiyo/flight.html

[Edited 2006-09-19 06:16:39]
 
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting MarkC (Reply 10):
If you really want to know I will PM you.

Thanks.

Quoting MarkC (Reply 10):
Why do you want to know?

Mild curiosity. Why does anyone want to know anything on A.Net? It's a hobby.

Quoting Ha763 (Reply 11):
According to ANA's website, they have the 4074 on their non-ER 772s. JAL's website shows the 4074/4077 for their non-ER 772s.

So I see. I'm afraid I looked for just this information on both websites but gave up before I found it.

For the record, I was taking my information from the 2006-2007 jp Fleets book. It's usually pretty reliable. But I'm no engineer and if the only difference between engine variants is software then I guess it's easy to be misled.

Thanks for clearing it up.
 
Carpethead
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RE: JAS And JAL 777 Engine Differences

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:44 pm

According to my sources that I have compiled over the years the initial batch of NH 772s are powered by PW4077s (example, all JA8xxx). The next batch of 772s including the four new non-ERs are PW4084. The 772ERs are PW4090. All ex-JAS 772s are PW4077. All JL 772s are PW4084.

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 5):
JAL: 4740 km and maximum take-off weight 230 tons and cruise speed 905 kmph

JAS: 5000 km and maximum take-off weight 208 tons and cruise speed of 893 kmph

ANA: 3580 km and maximum take-off weight 202.9 tons and cruise speed 890 kmph

I wonder why each airline quotes a different cruise speed? Engines are, except for the thrust rating, basically the same. Do each airlines differ in calculating the most economic cruise speed?