astuteman
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FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:21 pm

An article appeared in this week's hard-copy FI entitled

"Delays force A380 testing U-turn".

Essentially it outlines a change of aircraft for the route-proving trials brought about by production delays, in order to maintain the certification schedule.

Key quotes:-

Airbus will now use MSN002 for the trials as completion of the intended aircraft (MSN007) has been further delayed.

"Because of production delays, we realised that if we waited for MSN007 to be ready, it would be very difficult to keep certification on schedule" says Fernando Alonso

Airbus will operate a 150 hour Function + Reliability (F+R) test in november using MSN002, and credit the other 150 hours from flights made during the ELF programme.

Alonso says 80% of certification flying has been completed (about 2000 hours so far). He expects the remainder (except for the F+R) to be completed next month.

"We will then present the paperwork to the authorities for certification approval. This process is expected to take around 6 weeks, which would see certification in place by December"


I'll keep an eye out for the electronic link in flightglobal.

Regards
 
leelaw
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
Airbus will now use MSN002 for the trials as completion of the intended aircraft (MSN007) has been further delayed.

Wow, MSN007 was used for the evacuation testing in late-March. Sounds like the rewire jobs continue to be exceedingly difficult.
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astuteman
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 1):
Sounds like the rewire jobs continue to be exceedingly difficult.

I find it nothing short of extraordinary.

Once it's up and running (if?) I bet they can turn out entire aircraft in less time than this re-wiring currently seems to be taking.

I noticed a comment by the A380 flight test team in the A380 flight test article you posted last week, saying that the A380 was the best-performing aircraft they had ever put though certification, and expressing severe frustration about the production delays.

Must be driving them up the wall.

Regards
 
PanHAM
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:40 pm

There was an article in a German Sunday paper saying that the certification is running about 3 month late. The original schedule date was Oct 2, that confirms this.
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zvezda
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
There was an article in a German Sunday paper saying that the certification is running about 3 month late. The original schedule date was Oct 2, that confirms this.

Since first delivery to SQ was originally scheduled for March 2006, then delayed to May, then delayed to November, then delayed to December, I wonder Oct 2 of which year. 2005? Five months before first delivery seems a bit early, but seven months after first delivery is implausible.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:06 pm

Do we know exactly the nature of the wiring difficulties? Seems to me that once a proper "SQ" configuration is proven the remainder of that carrier's deliveries should not be further delayed. If they are, then it's not simply a matter of working out the wiring, there must be physical installation issues - some modification to the airframe required.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
leelaw
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Do we know exactly the nature of the wiring difficulties?

This is the best article I've seen describing the rewiring process:

The race to rewire the Airbus A380

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...The+race+to+rewire+the+Airbus.html
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
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Revelation
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Sch

Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 5):
Do we know exactly the nature of the wiring difficulties? Seems to me that once a proper "SQ" configuration is proven the remainder of that carrier's deliveries should not be further delayed. If they are, then it's not simply a matter of working out the wiring, there must be physical installation issues - some modification to the airframe required.

From the article linked in #6 above:

Quote:
he main cause of the delay lies with the need to replace or modify many of the hundreds of wiring harnesses that run through each aircraft, says vice-president A380 programme management Andreas Fehring. "We've had a much greater number of changes than expected resulting from modifications to electrical systems and structure following feedback from bench-testing, flight-testing and customisation needs," he says.

I'm doing some selective highlighting here, but having done so, your theory is plausible.

The article talks a lot about the knock-on effects. A quick production ramp-up was planned, so a lot of sub-assemblies were being produced from an early date. As above, the feedback from bench test, flight test and customization caused a lot of these sub-assemblies to be produced incorrectly, yet they were sent onward as to not hold up production. Then, when all these sub-assemblies made it to final assembly, the amount of re-work required ovewhelmed the final assembly team. This bottleneck in turn, mandates the earlier stages reduce their producion rate, so that final assembly can catch up.

Simply put, the A380 production process is all buggered up, and according to Airbus's already announced schedules, the impact will be felt for years, and we may see even more delays after the new schedule is announced by the end of this month.
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TeamAmerica
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 6):
This is the best article I've seen describing the rewiring process:

Thanks, Leelaw. I noted this:

Quote:
"We implemented the necessary changes to execute the flight-test programme, and addressed the upstream problems. That was the paperwork, we now have to physically address the issues on each of the customer aircraft," he adds.

Fehring says that Station 30 is the point in the build process on the final assembly line where each aircraft undergoes an electrical systems check ahead of power-on. "At this point normally, there should just be some finishing work, but the aircraft currently here are undergoing major rewiring," he says.

I read this as verification that there are physical modifications required to the pre-built aircraft. More than that, the comment regarding "major rewiring" tells me that this is not limited to customer-specific installations such as IFE. There is something more fundamental to this issue.

Here's a thought: if Airbus has the wiring issues worked out, why not assemble new airframes with the corrections and deliver those while reworking the problem aircraft? Does it matter who gets which hull number? I don't understand holding up the entire production process while the corrections are made. The "defective" aircraft could be fixed in parallel and used for later deliveries.  scratchchin 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
leelaw
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Sch

Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:55 am

I think this is the online version of the print article Astuteman summarized earlier in the threadstarter, although the headline has been revised:

A380 production delays force change to route-proving plan

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...force+change+to+route-proving.html

[Edited 2006-09-18 19:57:35]
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zvezda
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Flight International:
[Fehring] says the build-up in outstanding work resulted from the policy last year to ship subassemblies to Toulouse incomplete, rather than hold them back and cause a bottleneck. "As each milestone in the build process was reached, if the required work had not been finished then the assemblies were delivered to the final assembly line uncompleted to avoid slowing the production rate," he says.

In retrospect, this was a very bad decision. I expect that whoever is responsible for it is among those who have been shown the door.
 
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
In retrospect, this was a very bad decision. I expect that whoever is responsible for it is among those who have been shown the door.

I thought about this as I read it.

Clearly someone wanted to show 'progress' at all cost.

On the other hand, what's the point of holding on to the sub-assembly if the final wiring diagrams aren't done, and the completion date for the wiring diagram is unknown too?

I suppose, in retrospect, maybe moving the parts forward for the five planes needed for flight test was sensible, but my understanding is there are now ten fully assembled A380s.

Maybe this is why it was Mr. Humbert who lost his job (well, actually, he's still a "special advisor" to Streiff).
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Stitch
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
A quick production ramp-up was planned, so a lot of sub-assemblies were being produced from an early date. As above, the feedback from bench test, flight test and customization caused a lot of these sub-assemblies to be produced incorrectly, yet they were sent onward as to not hold up production. Then, when all these sub-assemblies made it to final assembly, the amount of re-work required ovewhelmed the final assembly team. This bottleneck in turn, mandates the earlier stages reduce their producion rate, so that final assembly can catch up.

I wonder if the rumored delays with the 787 suppliers might reflect some of this complexity. The 787 pre-fabbed sub-assemblies are bigger (not in actual size, but in percentage of the entire frame per barrel) so more of the wiring is probably self-contained within each sub-assembly, plus you don't need to worry about as much ducting and such since bleed-air isn't used for HVAC and such. However, the fuselage barrels will have interconnects between them that will need to match up.
 
astuteman
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 9):
I think this is the online version of the print article Astuteman summarized earlier in the threadstarter, although the headline has been revised:

Thanks Leelaw

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
In retrospect, this was a very bad decision.

And How! - it's teeth-grindingly bad.
We still habitually do this in the yard, and it p****s me off.
And yet you'll get some knobhead with lots of gold-braid "applauding" the "progress".

Doesn't bother me though............ much  gnasher   Smile

Regards
 
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Revelation
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
I wonder if the rumored delays with the 787 suppliers might reflect some of this complexity. The 787 pre-fabbed sub-assemblies are bigger (not in actual size, but in percentage of the entire frame per barrel) so more of the wiring is probably self-contained within each sub-assembly, plus you don't need to worry about as much ducting and such since bleed-air isn't used for HVAC and such. However, the fuselage barrels will have interconnects between them that will need to match up.

I've read elsewhere that Boeing has stated that early in the program, some work that will eventually be done by the sub-contractors will be done in-house. I hope they manage that carefully, or they'll end up in a similar situation.
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Lumberton
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 13):
And yet you'll get some knobhead with lots of gold-braid "applauding" the "progress".

That happens in your shipyards, too?  Wink
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Ken777
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 12):
I wonder if the rumored delays with the 787 suppliers might reflect some of this complexity.

Wasn't there an article a while back indicating that for the initial 787s the wiring would be done during the assembly rather than having the sub-assemblies pre-wired? I seem to remember at the time thinking that Boeing was paying attention to the 380 wiring problems and wanted to avoid being in the same situation.
 
zvezda
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:23 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 13):
And How! - it's teeth-grindingly bad.
We still habitually do this in the yard, and it p****s me off.
And yet you'll get some knobhead with lots of gold-braid "applauding" the "progress".

It's a natural manifestation of the tendency to believe what one wants to believe.
 
brendows
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Sch

Tue Sep 19, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):

Wasn't there an article a while back indicating that for the initial 787s the wiring would be done during the assembly rather than having the sub-assemblies pre-wired?

Yes, there was, here:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com

The part you are looking for:

Quote:
Bair said that some of the 787 wiring might not be installed until final assembly in Everett, later in the process than Boeing wants.

"It will be a headlong race to the end on wiring," Bair said.

And some parts will be installed on the plane out of sequence, he said.

"It looks pretty good right now, but we will have travel work -- parts installed in the first few planes where we hoped they would not be."
 
AeroplaneFreak
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:43 am

I would have thought MSN007 would have been completed by now.
 
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Stitch
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting AeroplaneFreak (Reply 19):
I would have thought MSN007 would have been completed by now.

That was the plan.  Smile

Alas, KrisWorld and the new super-seats have muffed those plans.
 
AeroplaneFreak
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:59 am

When will MSN006 and MSN008 first fly?
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting AeroplaneFreak (Reply 19):
I would have thought MSN007 would have been completed by now.

So which hull numbers are expected to be delivered in 2007? We know the one for 2006 if it certifies in time.
 
zvezda
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:10 am

Quoting AeroplaneFreak (Reply 19):
I would have thought MSN007 would have been completed by now.

Should have been in service five months ago.
 
leelaw
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Sch

Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:50 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 23):
Should have been in service five months ago.

I'm not sure about five months ago, because the cabin installed on MSN007 for the evacuation testing required significant refitting to carry out the route proving test-flights; nevertheless, any required refit of MSN007 should have been completed by now. Airbus has certainly been plagued by problems installing cabins in the two test aircraft MSN002 and 007 where installation of cabins was planned as part of the flight-test program. One can't help but wonder how cabin installation on MSN003 & 005, the first two aircraft scheduled for delivery to SQ, is progressing?
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WingedMigrator
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Sch

Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
An article appeared in this week's hard-copy FI entitled

"Delays force A380 testing U-turn".

Thanks for the heads up, Astuteman. I also saw an article in this week's Aviation Week (sorry, no link... it's a paid subscription site)

Airbus Tweaks A380 To Protect Schedule
Aviation Week & Space Technology
09/18/2006, page 38

Fair use tidbits that weren't in the FI story:

Quote:

Airbus will undertake the function and reliability testing (also known as "route proving") on its own, scrapping the participation of SIA and Lufthansa, because that cooperation would have taken time to arrange, officials indicate. The company would have preferred using MSN007, because its cabin has a more comfortable fit, and to use the flights with airlines as a promotional opportunity. But the tight schedule means the airframer can't pursue that strategy. The planned route-proving flights will carry about 50 passengers.

And the first word I've seen about the ELF test results:

Quote:

engineers also are digesting the results of the four long-range proving flights, which were largely seen as a success but did highlight a few areas where changes to the cabin must be made. The ventilation system, for example, has to be fine-tuned because the existing configuration created excessive condensation during descent in the cockpit and cabin. Alonso says the change will not be invasive and will involve adjusting some moisture-collecting gutters behind paneling. Also, the cooling system will undergo changes, since the temperature level through the airplane was not consistent.

On the other hand, A380 noise levels were below the target set for the Boeing 787, according to Claude Lelaie, head of Airbus's flight test department.

cheers
 
zvezda
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:50 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 25):
On the other hand, A380 noise levels were below the target set for the Boeing 787, according to Claude Lelaie, head of Airbus's flight test department.

Nice to finally see some good news from the WhaleJet program.  Smile
 
astuteman
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:37 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 20):
Alas, KrisWorld and the new super-seats have muffed those plans.

Can I pick you up on that one, and ask for more information (like in what way exactly, where did the info come from etc?  Smile

Regards
 
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autothrust
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:29 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 9):
A380 production delays force change to route-proving plan

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles....html

Very interesting Link, Leelaw thanks for sharing.
IMO this wiring issues are a bad thing, but one shouldn't forget the A380 is the most complex plane ever made although this isn't a excuse.
Lets hope they get this issues under control and ramp up the production.

Just comparison:

A380 500 km wiring
A340 300 km wiring
B747 250 km wiring
B787 ???(guess 330 km)

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 26):
On the other hand, A380 noise levels were below the target set for the Boeing 787, according to Claude Lelaie, head of Airbus's flight test department.

Second that, indeed a awesome archievement if we think about the dimensions compared to smaller planes.

Quote:
FI
For example, the A380 is the first airliner to incorporate a complex electronic "central nervous system" - dubbed the network server system

Someone knows more about this ? Thanks
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
zvezda
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 28):
Someone knows more about this ?

Yes, it's Ethernet. With all the interference issues, perhaps they should have used the older coaxial Ethernet cabling rather than twisted pair? 10Mbs should be fast enough for control. Perhaps coax would have been too heavy.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:39 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 28):
Someone knows more about this ?

Yes, it's Ethernet. With all the interference issues, perhaps they should have used the older coaxial Ethernet cabling rather than twisted pair? 10Mbs should be fast enough for control. Perhaps coax would have been too heavy.

So in effect there isn't dedicated connections between controllers and controlled items - be they cockpit controls to flaps, engines, etc DVD player to IFE screens, light control panels to lights, microphones to speakers rather everything in connected to a central server that squirts the requests to the correct destinations?
 
RichardPrice
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:41 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 28):
Someone knows more about this ? Thanks

Normally each system has its own independant wire from A to B, even if there are 20 other systems all going from A to B (say, front of the aircraft to the back). The A380 has, as far as I know, a bus system where those 21 systems all share the same wire, just use an identifying signal to differentiate between the systems.
 
zvezda
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:49 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 30):

So in effect there isn't dedicated connections between controllers and controlled items - be they cockpit controls to flaps, engines, etc DVD player to IFE screens, light control panels to lights, microphones to speakers rather everything in connected to a central server that squirts the requests to the correct destinations?

I would imagine the flight controls might be separate, but I'll ask my brother-in-law who is managing part of that effort. I'll see him this weekend.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:57 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
I would imagine the flight controls might be separate, but I'll ask my brother-in-law who is managing part of that effort. I'll see him this weekend.

nice one!
 
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autothrust
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:09 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 31):
Normally each system has its own independant wire from A to B, even if there are 20 other systems all going from A to B (say, front of the aircraft to the back). The A380 has, as far as I know, a bus system where those 21 systems all share the same wire, just use an identifying signal to differentiate between the systems.

To reduce also weight and complexity of wires, right? Thanks for explanation.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
trekster
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:09 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 28):
but one shouldn't forget the A380 is the most complex plane ever made

I fully agree. This is a new plane, there are always problems with something new. How do u know its going to work until its built and tested, hence delays.
The plane will fly, i just think they underestimated the delivery dates, and this is why there are all these reports out.
Remember the problems with the 747 when it first came out
Where does the time go???
 
A520
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:24 pm

May be a stupid question but ... couldn't the non-essential signals (IFE for instance) be dispatched through wireless systems?
 
RichardPrice
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:35 pm

Quoting A520 (Reply 36):
May be a stupid question but ... couldn't the non-essential signals (IFE for instance) be dispatched through wireless systems?

If you are going to go that route, then deliver the content and power over the same wire - wireless has bandwidth issues among other problems
 
scouseflyer
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting Trekster (Reply 35):
The plane will fly, i just think they underestimated the delivery dates, and this is why there are all these reports out.
Remember the problems with the 747 when it first came out

What they may now be doing is trying the approach that I use for IT projects I'm involved in "Under Promise so tha you can Over Deliver" Ie they will paint the worst possible picture (+5%) and then when something gets delivered it will nearly always end up being early! (hopefully)
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Yes, it's Ethernet. With all the interference issues, perhaps they should have used the older coaxial Ethernet cabling rather than twisted pair? 10Mbs should be fast enough for control. Perhaps coax would have been too heavy.

They used twisted pair? I would think fiber optic is the only way to go. No RFI issues at all, and as much bandwidth as you like. Probably somewhat heavier than twisted pair, but lighter than coax.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
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Stitch
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 27):
Can I pick you up on that one, and ask for more information (like in what way exactly, where did the info come from etc?  Smile


  • Interpretation of Airbus' comments that the wiring issues are (mostly) caused by "customer requirements";
  • SQ calls their IFE "KrisWorld";
  • SQ has stated they will introduce new seats on their A380 fleet.

 Smile
 
leelaw
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Sch

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting Trekster (Reply 35):
Remember the problems with the 747 when it first came out


IMO, the causes, scope, duration, and impact/knock-on effects of the delays associated with the two programs are not really comparable. Ultimately, the 741's EIS with Pan Am was "delayed" by 4-6 weeks despite serious technical problems with the then new generation/technology JT9D engines. It's now approximately 510 days since the maiden flight of the first A380 (MSN001) on April 27, 2005. By way of comparison, 510 days after the maiden flight of the first 747 (RA001) on February 9, 1969, Boeing had delivered 46 741s to 11 airline customers. Barring further rumored program delays, Airbus will not have delivered a cummulative total of 46 A380s until early 2009. Unfortunately, the botched industrial ramp-up of the A380 program is in a class all by itself.

See also: Did The B747 Suffer Delays Before Introduction? (by Fly2CHC Sep 15 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-09-19 16:08:03]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:37 pm

Thanks for these excerpts, WingedMigrator.

Quote:
Airbus will undertake the function and reliability testing (also known as "route proving") on its own, scrapping the participation of SIA and Lufthansa, because that cooperation would have taken time to arrange

Say what? How long have they known that there would be route proving, and how long does it take to get SQ or LH to send a representative to ride along? I don't get this at all. Wonder what the carriers think about it.

Quote:
On the other hand, A380 noise levels were below the target set for the Boeing 787, according to Claude Lelaie, head of Airbus's flight test department.

Even Airbus resorts to comparing A380 v. B787! Are sound levels measured as an average throughout the cabin? If so, I would hope that A380 is quieter, simply because of its size. The center seats are naturally farther from the walls, where the noise is.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
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zeke
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 28):
Someone knows more about this ? Thanks

5 interconnected Avionics Full Duplex Switched Ethernet (ADFX) networks are used on the A380, the domains are flight control, cockpit, fuel and LG, energy and cabin. The sidesticks are connected to the flight control and guidance computer by ADFX. ADFX is a ARINC 664 standard, a similar MIL SPEC standard is used for the same networks on the A400.

These networks are ethernet like, however they are NOT ethernet, please disregards the previous poster who claimed otherwise. Further info can be found at http://www.afdx.com/

These networks should not be confused with the separate IFE network which uses Gigabit-Ethernet to every seat with a storage capacity of 6 TByte, or the wireless networking in the cabin.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
A520
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:12 am

RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Sch

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 38):
What they may now be doing is trying the approach that I use for IT projects I'm involved in "Under Promise so tha you can Over Deliver" Ie they will paint the worst possible picture (+5%) and then when something gets delivered it will nearly always end up being early! (hopefully)

You must be lucky enough to work in a non-competitive domain. Otherwise, a competitor comes along, draw a "more realistic picture" ... and gets the contract!

[Edited 2006-09-19 17:05:13]
 
zvezda
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 39):
They used twisted pair? I would think fiber optic is the only way to go. No RFI issues at all, and as much bandwidth as you like. Probably somewhat heavier than twisted pair, but lighter than coax.

Yes, it's twisted pair using RJ45 connectors. 10Mb/s and 100Mb/s.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 40):

* Interpretation of Airbus' comments that the wiring issues are (mostly) caused by "customer requirements";
* SQ calls their IFE "KrisWorld";
* SQ has stated they will introduce new seats on their A380 fleet.

One could almost read this as meaning that the WhaleJet wouldn't have suffered wiring delays if SQ had called their IFE something other than "KrisWorld."  Smile

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):

5 interconnected Avionics Full Duplex Switched Ethernet (ADFX) networks are used on the A380, the domains are flight control, cockpit, fuel and LG, energy and cabin. The sidesticks are connected to the flight control and guidance computer by ADFX. ADFX is a ARINC 664 standard, a similar MIL SPEC standard is used for the same networks on the A400.

These networks are ethernet like, however they are NOT ethernet, please disregards the previous poster who claimed otherwise.

Hmmm. Ethernet is not Ethernet. If Zeke says so....

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
Further info can be found at http://www.afdx.com/

... which clearly states that ADFX is Ethernet. Readers are advised to use their own judgement about whom to disregard.
 
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Revelation
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:22 am

From www.afdx.com:

Quote:
AFDX uses special extensions to provide deterministic timing and redundancy

So it is ethernet, and it is not ethernet!  Smile

It's ethernet with extensions to provide deterministic timing and redundancy. This is absolutely vital in flight control, and standard ethernet is unusable without such extensions.

So, let's all be friends again!
Inspiration, move me brightly!
 
zvezda
Posts: 8891
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):

It's ethernet with extensions to provide deterministic timing and redundancy. This is absolutely vital in flight control, and standard ethernet is unusable without such extensions.

The redundancy is in how it's used. Investment banks and ISPs use redundant Ethernet. Nothing special. ADFX just specifies that Ethernet be used redundantly and specifies other constraints on its usage to ensure timing. It's Ethernet switches, Ethernet cabling, and Ethernet devices connected in accordance with a set of standards that make it suitable for aviation. Saying that ADFX is not Ethernet is like saying that redundant wiring isn't wiring.  Yeah sure
 
airfrnt
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
An article appeared in this week's hard-copy FI entitled

"Delays force A380 testing U-turn".

Why not keep the same title? We slam people who go the other way to introduce a more negative title onto a thread.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 2):
I noticed a comment by the A380 flight test team in the A380 flight test article you posted last week, saying that the A380 was the best-performing aircraft they had ever put though certification, and expressing severe frustration about the production delays.

I have yet to read a single quote from a flight testing crew that didn't think that their plane was the best ever. L-1011, MD-11, 717, etc.

Quoting Astuteman (Thread starter):
"We will then present the paperwork to the authorities for certification approval. This process is expected to take around 6 weeks, which would see certification in place by December"

Not a lot of time if SQ want's to do their phony introduction to service.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Yes, it's Ethernet. With all the interference issues, perhaps they should have used the older coaxial Ethernet cabling rather than twisted pair? 10Mbs should be fast enough for control. Perhaps coax would have been too heavy.

The entertainment system is Ethernet. Coax is a lousy choice for ethernet, it require's either daisy chaining or vampire tapping, which leads to signal lost, and breaks. Twisted pair (Cat 5e in particular) is much more efficent and proven out.

Quoting A520 (Reply 36):
May be a stupid question but ... couldn't the non-essential signals (IFE for instance) be dispatched through wireless systems?

Not unless you want everyone's TV and air conditioning to go away when some yokel brings a non-FCC approved device that spams the 3GHz frequency. (I have yet to see how Boeing is going to deal with this problem on the 787).
 
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zeke
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RE: FI-Airbus Fight To Hold A380 Certification Schedul

Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 45):
Readers are advised to use their own judgement about whom to disregard.

Yes Zvezda, you had no idea what ADFX was until I posted.

As I said

Quoting Zeke (Reply 43):
These networks are ethernet like, however they are NOT ethernet

Please READ what I said.

ADFX is a new state of the art subset of ARINC 664 developed by Airbus, which is based on IEEE 802.3 (IEEE 802.3 is the ethernet standard), however IEEE 802.3 devices will not work on a ADFX network becuase it is not ethernet, its ADFX.

ADFX has some modifications to IEEE 802.3 to help combat jitter and a lack of determinism that would be inherent in an unmodified IEEE 802.3 ethernet implementation. Architecturally AFDX uses a duplicated full duplex switched network to reach around the aircraft. Full duplex is used in order to avoid collisions and retransmissions that are found in a half duplex IEEE 802.3 ethernet implementation, thus ensuring that the connection is always available when data is ready for transmission.

AFDX also only uses virtual links, the internet address field of the IEEE 802.3 ethernet packet is unused, being replaced by a virtual link field. A virtual link defines the data source and its destinations. To further improve jitter and determinism of the final system, each of the virtual links can have a defined bandwidth set by its transmission frequency and its packet's maximum payload size. By fixing these parameters, the data flows and behavior of the network can be modeled accurately during design and can be verified when the system is validated for type approval.

To put it as simple as possible for you, you cannot plug your laptop into a ADFX network and take control of the aircraft because ADFX is not ethernet.

So over to you sir, please contribute more we are learning so much from you #######....
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar

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