mdjtlj
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 4:55 am

Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Fri Jun 30, 2000 8:36 am

Recently was on a flight from AMS-NRT (KLM 863) that was quite strange in terms of timing.

See the following excerpts from the timetables:

KLM 861 (All days except Tuesday) 14:40-8:45+1 Dur. 11:05 hours
KLM 863 (Tuesday) 12:55-09:00+1 Duration 13:05 hours

The only other difference between the two is the aircraft (KLM861 747 Passenger, KLM863 747 Combi).

There was no stop en-route (which would have been my first guess) and the flight did take a full 13:05 hours. The only thing I could come up with on the length is that the routing was very circuitous (i.e. over Turkey, Jordan, Iran, India, China) and was defintely not close to great circle.

Does anybody out there know if the routing for the other days is any different and if so why?

Very curious about this.
 
BA744
Posts: 152
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2000 8:34 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Fri Jun 30, 2000 9:20 am

Combi = more cargo = heavier = longer flying time????
 
RWally
Posts: 541
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 1999 10:28 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Fri Jun 30, 2000 9:40 am

Wheather the plane was all cargo, all passengers, or combi, the length of the flight shouldn't matter. The plane has a maximum take-off weight. The only thing I can figure is the engines.
 
mdjtlj
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 4:55 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Fri Jun 30, 2000 10:23 am

Unfortunately, I don't think it had anything to do with the Combi versus Passenger derivative issue, as Boeing gives the "typical cruise speed" as 565 mph for both models.

Just for grins, if the route were the same (i.e. 5836 miles via great circle) the speed of the passenger would be 526mph and 446 for the combi. This, I believe would rule out differences in the weight/speed or engine suggestions previously given as the difference is just too much.

KLM also uses the combi on the IAH-AMS route and the average speed developed on this route is 536 mph (great circle = 5004 miles and duration is 9:20)

This therefore, leads us back to the routing. Does anybody have suggestions as to the large difference? Seems very incredulous that on one day, it takes two hours longer which could be equated to 1000+ extra miles on the flight path.

Look forward to additional responses

 
A330
Posts: 688
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 12:31 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Fri Jun 30, 2000 4:21 pm

It is the Jetstream, I presume.
This is a continuous wind blowing around the world at a height of approx. 30.000 ft., at the Tropopause.(-56°C) This wind blows from West to East, like the earth rotation.
So, going to Europe from North America, and going to the Far East from Europe takes less time, because you have the Jetstream in your tail.

Tino
Shiek!
 
SabenaA320
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Nov 20, 1999 5:36 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Fri Jun 30, 2000 6:20 pm

Hey

Perhaps this reason:
On all days excepts tuesday they fly via Siberia and Russia. And on Tuesday they fly via Turkey, Jordan,... I think that must be a little bit longer. Normally the flight would go via Siberia.

This could maybe the reason.

Greetings
Ralf
 
mdjtlj
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 4:55 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Fri Jun 30, 2000 7:14 pm

A330 - All flights mentioned were from West to East and should have approximately the same effect from the jet stream.

SabenaA320 - I think your comment is probably the most viable and logical. But there still is the lingering question, why would the routing be consistently different on Tuesday only? Is there some aviation treaty that limits overflights of certain parts of the former Soviet Union only on this day, an ATC issue, etc....?
 
CV990A
Posts: 1389
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Sat Jul 01, 2000 2:33 am

What if the route on Tues is affected by a different landing slot time at NRT? Just a thought...
Kittens Give Morbo Gas
 
MAS777
Posts: 2757
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 1999 7:40 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Sat Jul 01, 2000 8:26 am

The reason behind the discrepency is the fact that not all Europe-Far Eastern flights can overfly Russian airspace. The preferable route for AMS-NRT is to head towards Moscow and then over Siberia before overflying South Korea and into Japan. Presumably KL861 uses this routing whilst KLM has not been approved by the Russian authorities to operate this service more than 6 times a week - so KL863 has to fly via a more Southerly route via Turkey - adding to its flying time.
 
mdjtlj
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Jun 30, 2000 4:55 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Sat Jul 01, 2000 11:24 pm

Thanks for the replies. I just wonder why the Tokyo trip has this restriction, when the AMS-KIX (Osaka) flight does not have this restriction (also goes 7 days a week and a flt time of 11:15).
 
jeb
Posts: 94
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 1:34 am

RE: Strange Flt To Japan On KLM

Sun Jul 02, 2000 6:07 am

I may be stupid to put forth this idea, but I will do it anyway...Could it be a typo -- people make mistakes all the time (like the one I am making right now by posting this!)

Just a thought,

Jeb Brooks!