WINGS
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Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:16 pm

Since the introduction of both the A333 and A332, these two derivatives of the A330/340 family have proven to be a reliable and and rather versatile airplane in service with many of the majors across the world.

When Boeing gave the go ahead for the B787 program, many believed that it would spell a premature death of the A330 series. But with over 2 years since the launch of the B787 program the A330, has never sold so well. It has a steady and rather healthy backlog and with various possible orders to come in the future.

Now that Airbus is expected to go forward with the new A350XWB, I believe that it would be a good opportunity for Airbus to further improve on the A330 series. GEnx could be a rather simple upgrade resulting in around an improvement of 13% fuel consumption. Together with other tweaks suggested for the original A350, Airbus could easily improve on that figure.






General Electric is floating the idea of offering the GEnx to power future derivatives of the A330, including the -200F freighter and tanker variants.

GE was well into the design of the GEnx-72A1 variant for the similarly sized A350-800/900 when the programme was revised in favour of the larger, wider A350 XWB.

"There's no intent for Airbus to do that, but it does offer significant advantages, and if 13% fuel burn means anything to the customers, I'm sure there could be interest."


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...GEnx+offered+for+future+A330s.html









With an new interior, new cockpit and new engines the A330 could work well beside the A350X.

What are your views in regards to Airbus further improving on the A330 series?

Regards,
Wings
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pilot21
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:23 pm

The A350X is designed as a replacment for the A330/A340 family as far as I'm aware so why would Airbus upgrade an aircraft they are replacing?
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:32 pm

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 1):
The A350X is designed as a replacment for the A330/A340 family as far as I'm aware so why would Airbus upgrade an aircraft they are replacing?

The idea is that a revamped A330 will be able to compete with the 787-3 &-8. Seems to me this same idea was shopped to customers at the beginning of the "old all-new A350" development process and rejected.
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:34 pm

Probably the GEnx will power the A330F.
We do not hear many thing about this freight version since its very quiet launch in Farnborough , last July.
Does Airbus study it with these efficient engines ? This is a mystery.
Not sure they will launch a GEnx powered A330 PAX version.Even if this version will be smaller than the A350XWB it could low the sales of it.
Also if this version see the light , it will be in the size of the 787-8 , which will be superior.
Airbus has to carefully think of that , before any launch..........
 
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
We do not hear many thing about this freight version since its very quiet launch in Farnborough , last July.

In my opinion the reason for this is that the A330 as stated by WINGS

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
has a steady and rather healthy backlog and with various possible orders to come in the future.

Demand has picked up substantially over the recent year and Airbus may well be waiting for Industrial launch of the A350XWB before commencing with the launch of the A332F so that they can offer PAX slots as part of a package similar to what we saw with TAP and even JJ who need capacity well before the A350 enters service. With a backlog of approximately 160 frames we can add most of the following;

A quick look at the most recent announcements gives the following;

3 x A332 for Afriqiyah of Libya announced on July 18, 2006
12 x A332 for Grupo Marsans announced on July 19, 2006
2 x A332 for Qantas Group announced on July 27, 2006
6 x A332 for TAM announced on June 28, 2006

So there are carriers out there waiting to take frames. We can add
via leasing deals the following;

5 x A332 for Hainan Airways via ILFC
1 x A332 for KLM via ILFC announced February 22, 2006
3 x A333 for Cathay Pacific via ILFC announced December 1, 2005

Sure ILFC may have some of theirs on order and I believe that the conversion
of the A346s to A332s is to meet their requirement for Hainan. In
addition to this LH are rumoured to be getting an additional 5 A330
as part of their upcoming announcement.

This also does not include 19 x A333 for SQs "interim" lease which
was announced on July 21, 2006.

Not included in this are any frames required for the MMRT program nor any other requirements for "interim" capacity until the A350XWB enters service in 2012 some 5 years away.

After Industrial Launch of the A350XWB we should see the launch of the A332F and we know Aercap are there for 30 frames. As for an upgrade I feel Airbus will focus on the potential for a freighter coversion program, cockpit upgrade and when it comes to offering GEnx I concur with FCKC in that;

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
Airbus has to carefully think of that , before any launch..........

However it looks like the A330 still has a positive future ahead of it my  twocents 

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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:31 pm

From what I can gather A330's are quite sought after at the moment, one mitigating factor of course is interim capacity planning by carriers while they wait for future deliveries (some of whch have been delayed several times already of course) which means these aircraft (and good aircraft they are) will be around for sometime yet.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 4):
In
addition to this LH are rumoured to be getting an additional 5 A330
as part of their upcoming announcement.

To add to the rumour mill, Egypt Air is expected to take as many as 7 and MEA 3 (granted this was rumoured before the destruction of Libanon).

We've also recently learned of a new future A332 operator, Air Mauritius.
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:09 pm

I wish they did something to update the A300/A310, its still a very light airframe and fit a hole in the market very nicely.
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
To add to the rumour mill, Egypt Air is expected to take as many as 7 and MEA 3

True, forgot about them  Embarrassment

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
We've also recently learned of a new future A332 operator, Air Mauritius.

Indeed but given the recent conversion I overlooked that and counted it in the current backlog. I've no doubt we'll see more new operators, in particular for the 332F when launched as I feel it would be a good regional freighter for the Asian market.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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sk909
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:54 pm

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
Also if this version see the light , it will be in the size of the 787-8 , which will be superior.

It may be that the 787-8 is superior in fuel burn. But for an airlines view fuel burn is not the only factor that is looked upon. They are also looking at the TCO and ROI. That is the maintenance cost, the cost of educating the staff ( pilots, C/A, maintenance, etc), cost of purchase, and so on. And since the 787 is not flying ( not as fare as I have heard...) the calculated fuel savings are purely theoretical.
With a theoretical upgrade of the A330 with new engines, new electronics, and updates on materials used, the difference between the A330 and 787 would diminish.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
I wish they did something to update the A300/A310,

Well that is a great idea. Though it is a bit late. These changes should have been maybe years ago. Upgrade of engines, electronics, and material updates would have made it even more soled.
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WINGS
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:06 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 2):

The idea is that a revamped A330 will be able to compete with the 787-3 &-8. Seems to me this same idea was shopped to customers at the beginning of the "old all-new A350" development process and rejected.

That's correct Leelaw, although now that the A350 has increased in both size and range, an improved A330 could work well beside the A350. Much like the A330 has worked well beside the B777 series.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
Probably the GEnx will power the A330F.
We do not hear many thing about this freight version since its very quiet launch in Farnborough

One would hope so. It would be an ideal opportunity to introduce the Genx.

Quoting FCKC (Reply 3):
Not sure they will launch a GEnx powered A330 PAX version.Even if this version will be smaller than the A350XWB it could low the sales of it.

If the A330F is to receive the Genx, I see no reason why the A330 PAX would not incorporate this improvement as well.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 4):

After Industrial Launch of the A350XWB we should see the launch of the A332F and we know Aercap are there for 30 frames. As for an upgrade I feel Airbus will focus on the potential for a freighter coversion program, cockpit upgrade and when it comes to offering GEnx I concur with FCKC in that;

I also believe that Airbus have slowed down the introduction of the A332F mainly due to the fact that Airbus would rather sell PAX A330's as a stop gap measure until the arrival of the A350.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 4):
However it looks like the A330 still has a positive future ahead of it my

That Sir I have to agree 100% with you.  Smile

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
To add to the rumour mill, Egypt Air is expected to take as many as 7

Well that's true Manni. Hopefully we will hear something from them rather soon.

Quoting Manni (Reply 6):
We've also recently learned of a new future A332 operator, Air Mauritius.

That's also correct. I also had completely forgotten about that order conversion.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
I wish they did something to update the A300/A310, its still a very light airframe and fit a hole in the market very nicely

How very true. It's a shame that Airbus did not further improve on the A300/A310. It would surely have given the B787-3 a running for it's money.

Quoting SK909 (Reply 9):
With a theoretical upgrade of the A330 with new engines, new electronics, and updates on materials used, the difference between the A330 and 787 would diminish.

Exactly. This would also allow smaller airlines to keep commodity with the A350, instead of introducing another type into it's fleet.

Regards,
Wings
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baroque
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:12 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
How very true. It's a shame that Airbus did not further improve on the A300/A310. It would surely have given the B787-3 a running for it's money.

It seems odd if there is no benefit either updating the A330, or the A310. Presumably, the arguments about competition with the wide A350 would be less if it was the A310 that was updated, but there must be a temptation to improve the 330 to allow it to continue to compete. Presumably they have a large box of tricks at least half designed for the earlier manifestations of the A350.

The engines have been around for a relatively long time, so presumably all manufacturers could offer much better propulsion systems now, not only GE. I seem to remember someone writing that Pratt could do a lot better now.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
One would hope so. It would be an ideal opportunity to introduce the Genx.

Why only GEnx? Why not newer RR Trents?
 
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Now that Airbus is expected to go forward with the new A350XWB, I believe that it would be a good opportunity for Airbus to further improve on the A330 series. GEnx could be a rather simple upgrade resulting in around an improvement of 13% fuel consumption. Together with other tweaks suggested for the original A350, Airbus could easily improve on that figure.

I am not sure Airbus would be justified in spending the monies needed to do the complete "A330NG" refresh ala the final iteration of the A350NSWB, however I do agree with you that performing "easier" updates like new engines and expanded use of composites to bring down the OEW and increase payload/range performance would be prudent use of Airbus capital.

While it won't be as good as the 787-8 and 787-9, an A332E/A333E would still be improvements on an already excellent platform and should sell well to customers operating A320Es and A350s. It should also serve as a natural upgrade path to existing A320 and A330 operators who do not wish to acquire larger, A350-sized aircraft. An A333E could even score some A343 replacement sales in such a situation.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
(A)n improved A330 could work well beside the A350. Much like the A330 has worked well beside the B777 series.

 checkmark 

Quoting WINGS (Reply 10):
It's a shame that Airbus did not further improve on the A300/A310. It would surely have given the B787-3 a running for it's money.

I'm not sure the available market would have been worth the investment. While I still stand by my belief that the 787-3 has a shot to sell into the Indian and Chinese domestic markets, I have been swayed by those who believe A300 operators like LH and AA would not add the 787-3 as a niche subfleet to replace their Airbus planes (now, if LH or AA orders the rest of the family, then that improves the chances they will take the 787-3).

JL and NH are already wedded to the 787-3, so even if the A300E was amazing, they aren't going to buy it. And as all of the US airlines that operate domestic-config 763s, 764s and 772s are expected to buy the 787, if they need such a plane, they will buy the 787-3, so that's another market denied to an A300E.

Better to just retire the A300/A310 and work on the A330E to blunt the inroads the 787-8 and 787-9 could make in that family's sales post-2010.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:24 am

Regarding the A300:

Quoting SK909 (Reply 9):
Well that is a great idea. Though it is a bit late. These changes should have been maybe years ago. Upgrade of engines, electronics, and material updates would have made it even more soled.

Could not agree more. The A300 is one of my favorite aircraft of all time. Even today, over twenty years after its design, it is still one of the more profitable aircraft for carriers. It's a cashcow for AA on those high-density Carribean routes, and there's a reason why LH, to my knowledge, has no plans to retire them in the near future.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine that adding new engines and a new A330 electronics to an A300-600 would have been a cheap and effective upgrade. The A332 and 333 are great aircraft, however their frames are optimized for long-haul flights, and thus are not as efficient on short runs. I'm surprised that it's taken this long for both Boeing and Airbus to work to fill this market for a large-capacity, medium-haul airliner. I cannot wait to see the 787-300.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Cba (Reply 14):

Quoting SK909 (Reply 9):
Well that is a great idea. Though it is a bit late. These changes should have been maybe years ago. Upgrade of engines, electronics, and material updates would have made it even more soled.

Could not agree more. The A300 is one of my favorite aircraft of all time. Even today, over twenty years after its design, it is still one of the more profitable aircraft for carriers. It's a cashcow for AA on those high-density Carribean routes, and there's a reason why LH, to my knowledge, has no plans to retire them in the near future.

Thanks...  Smile By the way LH is not going to retire them anytime soon... It's just making money for them.

Quoting Cba (Reply 14):
I cannot wait to see the 787-300.

Me too, but I still want to see how it performs. I know that Boeing is constantly understating the performance of their aircrafts. But still. Can it take the constantly bashing of landings on short and medium haul flights.
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steeler83
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:08 am

I noticed nobody posted anything about US' orders for A330 aircraft. They currently have their A333 fleet, and I believe they placed an order for A332? They are also the launch customer, of course, for the A350 program. I gather that they will use the A330s for PHL and CLT-Europe, and the A350 for PHX-Europe, as well as PHL-Asia if they get any slots and DOT approval to fly PHL-Asia.

If there was anything posted regarding US and the A330 in this thread, then I appoligize for not seeing it folks.
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:16 am

Well the A330 is not dead yet..LH just ordered another 5 units...
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:19 am

I think the A-330 will continue to sell well until the first A-350XWB enters service. I fell this way because the first flight is FAR into the future and the A-330 will be needed by many operators until that happens. In addition, there will be many more operators who will not need the price tag, range and capacity differences the A-350 brings.
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 18):
I noticed nobody posted anything about US' orders for A330 aircraft.

I think folks are talking about recent A330 orders, US's orders are not recent.
 
steeler83
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 21):
I think folks are talking about recent A330 orders, US's orders are not recent.

I thought they placed orders for more A330s a few months ago... I must have just assumed it when reading about them... Or was that for more A320 aircraft, if so, then big oops on my part  silly 
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:34 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
Or was that for more A320 aircraft, if so, then big oops on my pa

US Airways orders more A321s
31 August 2006

US Airways Group has placed a new firm order for seven A321-200 model aircraft. It has simultaneously converted eight pre-existing A320 Family orders (for seven A319s and one A320) to eight A321s...


http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...ses_items/08_31_06_usair_A321.html
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Ken777
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:51 am

Airbus spent a fair amount of money developing the previous version of the 350 and it seems strange that they would not move the technologies developed to the 330 program. They have the 330 production facilities that could remain open and profitable for a longer term. It provides an option for a smaller plane going into the future and would be available if the 787 doesn't turn out to be as good as anticipated. It also provides a reasonable alternative to the 787 when there are no 787 slots available for a long time.

Considering the investment already made and the potential gains it seems like a fairly safe bet to move to a 330E.
 
FLALEFTY
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:51 am

I think the A330 may have a bright future in both the military tanker/transport and commercial air freighter versions. Those markets should keep the A330 production line humming for years to come.
 
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:02 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 4):
However it looks like the A330 still has a positive future ahead of it my

I agree 100%. Those planes are still selling lie turkey at thanksgiving. I guess the A300 will go to pure freighter once the A330's replace them or whatever does.

I think GE offering to power future derivatives is a bold move since RR powers quite a few a/c but think its a good idea. I love the A330 and hope Airbus continues to get more orders for it.

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sk909
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 18):
I noticed nobody posted anything about US' orders for A330 aircraft.

And??? I don't the connection? Who cares about who ordered A330. We are talking about the future of the model, and whether it will be updated with new engines, materials and electronics.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 26):
I think GE offering to power future derivatives is a bold move since RR powers quite a few a/c but think its a good idea. I love the A330 and hope Airbus continues to get more orders for it.

Ok... I don't know much about engines, and I actually don't really care. But just for the interest of it: Which engines are the quitest? Which are the most fuel saving? Which offer the most power?
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Lemurs
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:33 am

The simplest reason the A330 has a long life ahead of it is pretty obvious: Time. At this point in time, you can get an A330 delivered to you for less and sooner than either of the other airframes, and if you're already operating an A330 fleet, there's no reason to back away from the platform just because you know there is a better replacement on the horizon. Marketshare and expansion plans don't wait for the latest-greatest airplane. That said, the writing is on the wall for it. Another ~10 years of orders or so max before updated versions of the 787 start being offered and really seal it's fate. Still, that's plenty of time to collect hundreds of more orders.
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sk909
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 28):
The simplest reason the A330 has a long life ahead of it is pretty obvious: Time.

That is just so true...
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tayaramecanici
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:12 pm

Quoting Lemurs (Reply 28):

Agree completely with you on this. Probably Airbus is waiting for the GenX to be tested before offering a new combination of A330 AF + GENX engines. Looking at some of the major operators of A330 like EK, they don't have anything on order to repalce their 266 seater A330s some of which are now 7yrs old. Going by the hrs/cyls on them these are due for a 'D' chk in another 3yrs following which EK will have to replace them. The possible replacements with a B787/A350 will be available only by 2014 at the earliest.
At the right price IMO the A330 coud do a lot of damage to the B787 sales, leaving Airbus plenty of time to sorth the A380 and develop a whole new family out of the A350XWB.
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ZKNBX
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:31 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 7):
I wish they did something to update the A300/A310, its still a very light airframe and fit a hole in the market very nicely.

Yes there is a hole in the market, and a re-engined 332/333 with a minor interior upgrade could become a natural successor to the AB6 and 310... as well as early build A330s and 777As
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 31):
Yes there is a hole in the market, and a re-engined 332/333 with a minor interior upgrade could become a natural successor to the AB6 and 310... as well as early build A330s and 777As

Not sure it could. The A330 is a much larger plane than both the A300B4 and the A310, and it comes with a wing optimized towards long range missions. Most AB6 in service today are operated on short to medium range missions also serving airports where availability of gates that can accommodate an A330 or 777 is limited. The A330 is also significantly heavier than the A300, and the 777A didn't sell particularly well, so there isn't much of a replacement market out there. Also early A330-300s didn't sell quite as well as later generation A330-3x3X models offering improved range or payload.
 
lotsamiles
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:30 am

Folks,
According to the latest marketing materials passed out by Airbus in Calgary last week:

A330-200F:
EIS 4Q 2009
64.3t carried 4,000nm
MTOW 233t / MLW 182t / MZFW 173t
Engines CF6-80 / PW4000 / Trent 700
Positioned against 767-300F/BCF and DC10-30F

A350F:
90t carried 5,000nm

No more details on A350F but the difference in payload would allow Airbus to offer both to the market without too much overlap.

Regards,
Lotsamiles
 
steeler83
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 21):
Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 22):
Or was that for more A320 aircraft, if so, then big oops on my pa

US Airways orders more A321s
31 August 2006

US Airways Group has placed a new firm order for seven A321-200 model aircraft. It has simultaneously converted eight pre-existing A320 Family orders (for seven A319s and one A320) to eight A321s...

Well, then it was a big oops on my PART... (My pa had nothing to do with it  Wink) j/k

I brought that up because I was wondering about future orders for this as well. Doesn't that have to do with the future of the A330? I mean, engines/wings/mechanics/etc, I realize that was the point of this thread now, but what about demand/ordersd...
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baroque
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RE: Airbus A330 It's Future?

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 31):
No more details on A350F but the difference in payload would allow Airbus to offer both to the market without too much overlap.

And better yet if it were an A330E or whatever.

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