squared
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AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:59 am

According to the Globe and Mail, Air Canada has fined a man for deliberately delaying a flight from LHR-YYZ. He got into an argument with a FA, where he "raised his voice and used abusive language" towards the FA. He was fined $1,350 for delaying the flight by 27 minutes.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...0.wxaircan20/BNStory/Business/home

SQuared
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:21 am

Incredible... an airline besides Southwest who will actually stand behind their staff and even send a clear message that the proverbial inmates will not be allowed to run the prison. Wonder if Air Canada's response would have been different if the unruly, abusive "inmate" had been an elite member of their caste system?
 
nkops
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:32 am

I wish more airlines would do that.. (looking at you Katie Couric). I wonder if the FAA would back up an American airline like that??
:evil:
 
Salomon
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:34 am

Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule? Big grin
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FrequentFlyKid
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:46 am

Not that I condone the actions of this person, but Salomon makes a good point...
 
sebring
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting FrequentFlyKid (Reply 4):
Not that I condone the actions of this person, but Salomon makes a good point...

Well, this individual technically broke the law and caused the airline to incur cost, and I assume if an airline's lateness is the result of a breach of the law or its licence, and if it costs you money, then you have a right to seek compensation. Most airlines offer compensation for lateness that is due to its equipment or crews - as opposed to weather, ATC, etc.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting FrequentFlyKid (Reply 4):
but Salomon makes a good point...

He does make a valid point. I wish I could bill US for my 3hr delay at PHL. I wish more airlines would that. They would make MILLIONS of dollars over thet.

MCOflyer
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timeair
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Salomon (Reply 3):
Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule?

...Yes...IF.. you could get it written into the legalities in regards to interferring with flight crew and their duties, which may result in fines and/or imprisonment if resulting in a delay, and allowing the air carrier to seek compensation caused by the individual(s). This law is also incorporated into whereas an aircraft needs to divert due to medical emergency, the carrier can seek compensation from the patient and/or insurance company. This law is very seldom if at all used as most carriers are compassionate to the medical well being of their customers. But when you get some idiot ranting on the plane...."Excuse me sir, here is a bill for your stupidity and arrogance!" is what the flight attendant should say when a lengthy delay occurs by one individual.. as she tucks a slip into his chest pocket..  bigthumbsup 
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SNATH
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:56 am

Just curious: so, how does an airline "fine" a person? Is it a case of "either give us the money or you don't get on our planes again"? I can't see how they can enforce the fine otherwise...

Tony
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RichardPrice
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
Just curious: so, how does an airline "fine" a person? Is it a case of "either give us the money or you don't get on our planes again"? I can't see how they can enforce the fine otherwise...

Take the person to court for costs associated with the delay caused by the defendants actions.
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
I can't see how they can enforce the fine otherwise...

The passenger in this case was asked by Air Canada in a letter to defend his actions, and give them reason why NOT to ban them from Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz and partners in the "unruly passenger no-fly list. This list is shared by many many international airlines, and can result in quite a hardship trying to find someone to fly you from A to B.

It was stated that also, several passengers around the incident also reported to the CTA, (Canadian Transportation Agency) that the actions they witnessed backed up what Air Canada, and its employees reported.
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SafeFlyer
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:07 am

Oh my... and just look at the replies it got on the Globe and Mail website. I'm not a registered user but If I would, I think I'd rant. All of these people are saying: "Lesson is, don't fly Air Canada, rude service!" Really, Canadians just LOVE to bitch about AC. Fact is, they're REALLY not that bad! Some of those people are even relating to flight 25, yes 25 years ago! I have had 90% of the time VERY nice and professional crews on AC this year on 14 different flights. I'd say really, only 1 of those had a crew member with a very bad attitude (which I reported and that AC even wrote back to me about) and another one where they weren't rude, but just disinterested.

If the passenger was being abusive then yes, AC did the right thing. Fining him? Mmm, maybe that's a little far-streched, they could have just not reimbursed the return portion of his ticket (which they did).

'Safe
 
SNATH
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 9):

Take the person to court for costs associated with the delay caused by the defendants actions.

Oh, I see. The "either pay us now or we'll take you to court" approach. I see.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 10):

The passenger in this case was asked by Air Canada in a letter to defend his actions, and give them reason why NOT to ban them from Air Canada, Air Canada Jazz and partners in the "unruly passenger no-fly list. This list is shared by many many international airlines, and can result in quite a hardship trying to find someone to fly you from A to B.

It was stated that also, several passengers around the incident also reported to the CTA, (Canadian Transportation Agency) that the actions they witnessed backed up what Air Canada, and its employees reported.

I didn't question why they were doing it. I was just curious of how they will do it. That's all!

Tony
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MCOflyer
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting SNATH (Reply 8):
Just curious: so, how does an airline "fine" a person? Is it a case of "either give us the money or you don't get on our planes again"? I can't see how they can enforce the fine otherwise...

Negligence at the job and in the work place enviroment. If he has direct deposit, his employer will deduct it monthly.

MCOflyer
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Salomon
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Sebring (Reply 5):
Well, this individual technically broke the law and caused the airline to incur cost, and I assume if an airline's lateness is the result of a breach of the law or its licence, and if it costs you money, then you have a right to seek compensation.

Why did Air Canada insist in fining that person 1350$? Its not like it would drive them out of business... Is it to set an example or a matter of principles?

[Edited 2006-09-20 20:30:18]
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DavidYYC
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:22 am

Fining.....I find that strange. What authority does AC have to "fine" passengers? Maybe they could sue for related costs incurred, or forbid travel etc, but fining implies some kind of legal authority, like a policeman judge or traffic-cop! Would this "fine" stand in court if it went that far?
 
Lucky727
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Salomon (Reply 14):
Why did Air Canada insist in fining that person 1350$?

Well, I'll venture a guess: the 13:05 slot for departure from LHR costs $4000. A delay of 27 minutes pushes the departure slot into a 'prime-time', busier period where the departure slot costs $1350 more. (I don't know if carriers pay 'departure fees', maybe it's factored into the landing fees - anyone?)

What I did find interesting at the end of the article:

"to pay $18,490 to British Airways for causing a disruption on a flight from Stockholm to New York"

since when do BA fly from ARN to JFK??

Lucky727
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nerak11
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting SQuared (Thread starter):
According to the Globe and Mail, Air Canada has fined a man for deliberately delaying a flight from LHR-YYZ

It should be noted that the article does not refer to the passenger being fined, just sent a bill.
 
aeroplan73
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:25 am

Sounds like a very unreasonable man, and you can hardly fault Air Canada for taking action.

I find it slightly hilarious that he must - "submit in writing the reasons why he should be accepted as a passenger on Air Canada or Jazz Air flights."

Lol, it's like being punished after class by writing 'I will not.....' on the blackboard.

Hopefully in the future he learns to relax and go with the flow while on board. Moronic passengers can really set the tone for a crappy flight for everyone else.
I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
 
474218
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:51 am

Air Canada can not fine anyone and the story does not say they did. A fine is something levied only by a court or government agency. In this case Air Canada billed the passenger for delaying the flight and the Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) upheld the charge. The only mention of a fine in the article is about a fine levied by the CTA on model on a BA flight.
 
lincoln
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting Nerak11 (Reply 17):
It should be noted that the article does not refer to the passenger being fined, just sent a bill.

...and that that possibilitiy is outlined in the carrier's terms and conditions.

Of course, I'm an American speaking about American law in a Canadian thread, so this may be irrelevent--or simply incorrect, but...

My understanding is that (US) courts tend to look unfavorably upon contracts that are loaded with one-sided penalties, where the penalty is not adaquately disclosed, or if the penalty is way out of line with the actual damages caused by one party to the other. (See, for ex., American Car Rental v. Comissioner of Consumer Protection where ) If this is correct,

(a) if Air Canada actually suffered $1300 in damage (which doesn't sound unreasonable) they could collect if the consumer had acknoweded the penalty [just burrying it in the terms and conditions was not enough in the American Car Rental Case], and

(b) potentially conversely you may be able to argue that their penalty reflects the importance of punctuality and you should have the same expectations. (No, that's not a well-formulated opinion)

I'd love to know how this turns out -- and I'm glad that an airline is standing up to unreasonable customers, even if they never actually get money.

Lincoln
(I'm not a lawyer. In the US, in Canada...anywhere).
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longhauler
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:08 am

Is the passenger obliged to pay the bill ... probably not.

Is Air Canada likely to go further than the original billing to recover the costs ... probably not.

Will Air Canada add his name to the "Unruly Passenger No-fly List" shared by many world airlines ... probably.

Will he be able to cross the Atlantic again on an airline of which we have heard ... probably not!

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 18):
I find it slightly hilarious that he must - "submit in writing the reasons why he should be accepted as a passenger on Air Canada or Jazz Air flights."

Lol, it's like being punished after class by writing 'I will not.....' on the blackboard.

I guess if you act like a spoiled three year old, that is how you are treated.
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slashd0t
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:12 am

I think i'm going to go against the grain here and disagree.. If A/C delays my flight for reasons other then weather etc (staff issues) it costs my business money, so, can I sue Air Canada for that loss? These are things that need to be absorbed in the "cost of doing business" category. If my flight is late 2 hrs, I lose 2 hrs of billable time meaning I lose nearly $500.. I understand he delayed the flight, but, Air Canada delays flights all the time for reasons such as staffing or maintanence. What can we do??

suck it up buttercup Big grin
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beechnut
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Salomon (Reply 3):
Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule?

You could try but it won't get you too far. I travelled with my family to LHR on Flight 866 on Sunday, July 30. The flight incurred a 12 hour technical delay. While they put us up in a hotel that night (for all of about 3 hours as it was past 1 am when they finally conceded we weren't going to fly), they did NOT compensate me for costs the lateness caused at the other end. Basically we were not able to proceed to our final destination in Wales that evening as we arrived at LHR at 10 pm. We had pre-paid bookings in Wales and had to take a hotel in Reading that night at our own expense, so we basically paid twice for accomodation as a result.

AC offered us $200 rebates on our next flights if taken within 1 year. I asked for reimbursement of the hotel room but was refused. While normally a loyal AC customer (and once an Elite Aeroplan member when I travelled a lot on business), I feel AC dropped the ball on this one. The $200 credits didn't help me pay my August Visa bill, to which the extra charge was posted.

Beech
 
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longhauler
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Slashd0t (Reply 22):
can I sue Air Canada for that loss?

Of course you can, that is the Great American Pass time. But, would you win? That is unlikely. You would have to prove willful negligence, and that is very difficult in an airline operation.

In other words, an airline would dearly love for all of its flight to leave and arrive on time. However, for you to win a lawsuit, you would have to prove that it was intentional to delay your flight. Or ... that reasonable procedures were not in place to avoid delays.

And, looking at most major airlines, and the intensity with which it drives its processes to ensure an on-time departure, I would guess it would almost be impossible to prove the airline was negligent.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
polaris
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:49 am

All this over nothing more than an assigned seat. Wouldn't it have been easier for the passenger to get up and move to the seat that was assigned to them in the first place?
 
lincoln
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting Polaris (Reply 25):
All this over nothing more than an assigned seat. Wouldn't it have been easier for the passenger to get up and move to the seat that was assigned to them in the first place?

Would have been cheaper, too!

Lincoln
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VonRichtofen
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:58 pm

[quote=LongHauler,reply=24]

Not only that but in the Contract of Carriage you agree to when purchasing a ticket it states that the airline has an obligation to get you to your destination within a reasonable amount of time, they are not obligated by contract to get you to your destination at scheduled time of the flight you purchased a ticket for.

Kris
 
deltajet757
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:39 pm

Good for AC. That man deserved that fine. People have connections to make and places to go and places to see, people to meet.

-DeltaJet757
FLY DELTA JETS
 
We're Nuts
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:11 pm

Some passengers need to learn the hard way that their flight attendants are also humans.
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nonfirm
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:37 pm

Quoting Salomon (Reply 3):
Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule?

That's A great reply. thumbsup  laughing 
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:29 pm

Way to go AC  Smile

They should have fined him and thrown him off as well.

I do not appreciate anyone who has a similar job to an F/A being shouted at by a customer, at all  Angry

I for one would step in and shut his or her (customer) mouth.


Lee
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DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:31 pm

Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 31):
They should have fined him and thrown him off as well.

Isn't that what they did?
 
BMIFlyer
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:59 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 32):
Isn't that what they did?

Ah yes, I didn't read the report, just the thread  Wink



Lee
Sometimes You Can't Make It On Your Own
 
aircanada014
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:51 pm

Quoting Slashd0t (Reply 22):
I think i'm going to go against the grain here and disagree.. If A/C delays my flight for reasons other then weather etc (staff issues) it costs my business money, so, can I sue Air Canada for that loss? These are things that need to be absorbed in the "cost of doing business" category. If my flight is late 2 hrs, I lose 2 hrs of billable time meaning I lose nearly $500.. I understand he delayed the flight, but, Air Canada delays flights all the time for reasons such as staffing or maintanence. What can we do??

I don't think you can sue AC, if you want to sue I think its the passenger you want to sue. I don't know where you see AC fault for delaying the flight its the passenger...
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:25 pm

Quoting Salomon (Reply 3):
Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule?

Yes....you certainly can, if you can prove that the airline deliberately went out of its way to ensure that the flight was delayed.......wish you luck in your efforts .... Big grin
 
robsawatsky
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RE: AC Fines Man For "deliberately" Delaying Flight.

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 32):
Quoting BMIFlyer (Reply 31):
They should have fined him and thrown him off as well.

Isn't that what they did?

Not exactly, the airline billed him; but they actually refunded him the unused part of his ticket because that is what AC's tariffs require for this situation. The billing is a civil matter outside of the tariffs and Canadian Transport regulations.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 35):
Quoting Salomon (Reply 3):
Does that mean I could send Air Canada a bill if my flight is not on schedule?

Yes....you certainly can, if you can prove that the airline deliberately went out of its way to ensure that the flight was delayed.......wish you luck in your efforts ..

Depends upon whether it was a breach of contract or not. Then if there are specific tariffs dealing with delays, those will apply, you can assume no court will hear a case when the remedies are already covered under the contractual terms and conditions including the tariffs and regulations applicable to the carrier.

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