RedChili
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Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:12 am

Since 1995 I've been flying extensively with Aeroflot. I've actually flown more with Aeroflot than with any of the other 59 airlines I've been on.

During this same period, I've read time and time again that "Aeroflot is serious about improving their image... Aeroflot of today is much better than the Aeroflot of the Soviet era..." etc. For sure, one thing which has improved a lot is their fleet. A big part of their fleet today consists of modern A32X and B763 airplanes. But at the same time, over and over again I've been disappointed by their attitude towards their customers. Even when I had a silver card in Aeroflot Bonus a couple of years ago, I repeatedly felt like I was treated as a nuisance and not as a welcome guest.

Now they've done it again and proven that they have not really improved.

A couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine was flying Aeroflot on SVO-KHV. Now, for those of you who don't know Sheremetyevo-1: Before you can check in, you have to go through a security check, and only passengers are allowed into the check-in area. And the pax are not allowed to enter the area until the flight is called out approximately two hours before departure.

The previous SVO-KHV flight (the flight before my friend's flight) had been cancelled (I don't know the reason), and all the passengers from that flight were put on the "waiting list" for my friend's flight. While my friend was waiting at SVO, suddenly they called out (in Russian first, and then in English): "SU flight 893 is now ready for check-in. Because we have too many passengers, the first to get to the check-in desks will be able to fly. The others will have to wait for the next flight."

My friend was lucky to get to the check-in very quickly, so she was on that flight. But to think about all those other poor passengers who didn't make it...

What makes things even worse is that SU that week had only four weekly flights to KHV, plus two or three code share flights with Dalavia. The next flight on SU metal after my friend's flight, was actually only three days later! And Aeroflot obviously does not pay any hotel or meals during those days.

I suggest that Aeroflot should change it's motto to: "Survival of the fittest!" Or possibly: "Turn your flight into a fight (to get to the check-in)!"
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levg79
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:40 am

I still remember SU advertisements from the days when Latvia was occupied by Russia. It read something like "Fly the Aeroflot Planes". Simple and to the point. However, they should ammend it now to "Fly the Aeroflot Planes....if you can run fast!". That would fit more into the way they do business.

It's funny how SU could not find a replacement aircraft to transport all of those passengers.

Leo.
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B777-700
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting RedChili (Thread starter):
I suggest that Aeroflot should change it's motto to: "Survival of the fittest!" Or possibly: "Turn your flight into a fight (to get to the check-in)!"

Thats funny, because I just flew them domestic in July and it was a great experience from begining to end.

A couple of weeks ago....my friend was telling me...blah blah blah...

Pax get it wrong all the time. And even if it happend just like you say, it's just one bad flight, and could be caused by something out of SU's control.

This is not a reflection on the airline as a whole...

Moving on...
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 2):
Thats funny, because I just flew them domestic in July and it was a great experience from begining to end.

As I wrote above, I've made tons of flights on Aeroflot, and I've also made several flights with them which were okay. But I've also had big problems several times. The problem is, with Aeroflot, you never know! On your domestic flight with SU in July, you had no problems, but if you fly SU fifty times, chances are you will end up in a similar situation sooner or later.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 2):
And even if it happend just like you say, it's just one bad flight, and could be caused by something out of SU's control.

It's not out of SU's control what they do with stranded passengers. When a flight is cancelled, they should immediately start to rebook the passengers onto other flights, even with competing airlines if necessary. They should not let them sit at the airport for hours and hours on end just to have to fight to get to the check-in desks, and then create even more stranded passengers from the second flight.

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 1):
It's funny how SU could not find a replacement aircraft to transport all of those passengers.

SU's long haul fleet is stretched to the limit, so it's not easy to find a replacement for an IL96. But they should have been able to rebook them on other airlines.
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LawnDart
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting RedChili (Thread starter):
Since 1995 I've been flying extensively with Aeroflot. I've actually flown more with Aeroflot than with any of the other 59 airlines I've been on.



Quoting RedChili (Thread starter):
over and over again I've been disappointed by their attitude towards their customers



Quoting RedChili (Thread starter):
I repeatedly felt like I was treated as a nuisance and not as a welcome guest.



Quoting RedChili (Thread starter):
Now they've done it again and proven that they have not really improved.

Which begs the question: are you a masochist? Why do you keep flying with Aeroflot?
 
RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 4):
Which begs the question: are you a masochist? Why do you keep flying with Aeroflot?

It's actually a good question! One answer is that on some routes, Aeroflot is even better than the competition. The route I mentioned above, MOW-KHV, is one such example. Even if SU is bad, I would prefer SU above Dalavia or Domodedovo.

Sometimes the reason has also been financially. A few years ago, I had to fly from ARN-MOW on business and I wanted to go on a vacation in Thailand. I discovered that I could get an ARN-SVO-BKK ticket (with stopovers in Moscow both ways) for only USD 100 more than a ticket ARN-SVO only. Naturally, I was willing to go to Thailand on Aerofot for only 100 dollars extra.

As a frequent flyer, I've also received around a dozen free flights on SU, and I'm always willing to take a free flight even if I risk ending up in similar situations as the above.

Partly, the answer has also been that I've read (and believed) all the promises about that "we will improve our service." Now, I'm not so sure that I believe in them anymore.
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LawnDart
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:02 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 5):
MOW-KHV, is one such example. Even if SU is bad, I would prefer SU above Dalavia or Domodedovo.

So, Aeroflot is the lesser of two evils!

Quoting RedChili (Reply 5):
I discovered that I could get an ARN-SVO-BKK ticket (with stopovers in Moscow both ways) for only USD 100 more than a ticket ARN-SVO only. Naturally, I was willing to go to Thailand on Aerofot for only 100 dollars extra.

Okay...this is not meant to be a criticism of you, personally, however...why is it the buying public is willing to be abused if the price is right? You have just told Aeroflot that you will fly them, even though you have admitted they suck!. What incentive does Aeroflot then have to improve? They have your money, and they abuse you in the process!!!

Quoting RedChili (Reply 5):
and I'm always willing to take a free flight even if I risk ending up in similar situations as the above.

You should respect yourself enough to vote with your money and choose another airline. You subject yourself to poor service so much that you've earned free abuse!!!

You have no right to complain.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 5):
Partly, the answer has also been that I've read (and believed) all the promises about that "we will improve our service." Now, I'm not so sure that I believe in them anymore.

So, fly someone else whenever possible. And let Aeroflot know, even if they don't care.
 
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
As I wrote above, I've made tons of flights on Aeroflot, and I've also made several flights with them which were okay. But I've also had big problems several times.

So you've flown them 'tons' but have had 'several' problems. Seems pretty average to me.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
The problem is, with Aeroflot, you never know!

And how is this different then any other airline? There's about 1000 things that can go wrong at any time. I have many Russian friends that obviously have flown the 'flot many time and have no big issues to report.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
but if you fly SU fifty times, chances are you will end up in a similar situation sooner or later.

And this is exactly no different than any other airline.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
It's not out of SU's control what they do with stranded passengers. When a flight is cancelled, they should immediately start to rebook the passengers onto other flights, even with competing airlines if necessary.

What if the other airlines were full? What if there weren't any other flights?

It's not always an option.
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ReverseThrust
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 2):
Thats funny, because I just flew them domestic in July and it was a great experience from begining to end.

I completely agree, I flew with SU and 5N (Aeroflot-Nord) between Moscow Sheremetyevo 1 and St. Petersburg and it was a great experience (mind you St. Petersburg Terminal 1 is far worse than Sheremetyevo, as the check-in does not open for each flight until 1h 20 before departure and you are not even allowed through the security check until 1h 20 - and not a minute earlier! before that time...once you are through though, it's a breeze! Beware of the dragons at the security points though. You will get turned back, even if you are 5 minutes early!)

That still wouldn't put me off though - it was worth the hassle to get a ride on the TU-134 and TU-154M! and I'd quite happily do it again.

Anyways....

I do find it very hard to believe that, considering how big Aeroflot is in terms of aircraft, that they could not find an aircraft and crew to run 2 flights to Khabarovsk on the same afternoon.... afterall, it's not like there is any other way there from Moscow.

Regards,

Reverse.
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RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
So, Aeroflot is the lesser of two evils!

Sometimes, yes.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
What incentive does Aeroflot then have to improve?

Well, if they're happy with bringing me between SVO-BKK for a hundred bucks, then they have no incentive to improve. But if they want to compete for higher fares, then that's an incentive.

Quoting LawnDart (Reply 6):
You should respect yourself enough to vote with your money and choose another airline. You subject yourself to poor service so much that you've earned free abuse!!

I usually do choose another airline. Notice that I wrote that I "had" (past tense) a silver card, but I don't have that anymore.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 7):
And how is this different then any other airline? There's about 1000 things that can go wrong at any time

Things can go wrong, yes. There can be technical problems, weather problems, etc. etc. But the question is: What do you do about it when those problems show up? And that's where Aeroflot fails.

What most western airlines would do in a similar situation, would be to immediately start to rebook the passengers onto other flights, and provide them with meals and accommodation during the wait. Moreover, they would not put the pax from the next flight into the same "waiting list" for the next flight.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 7):
What if the other airlines were full? What if there weren't any other flights?

There were other flights. There are at least two other airlines with non-stop flights between MOW-KHV, plus several airlines with connecting flights. I have a hard time believing that all those flights were full.

Quoting ReverseThrust (Reply 8):
I do find it very hard to believe that, considering how big Aeroflot is in terms of aircraft, that they could not find an aircraft and crew to run 2 flights to Khabarovsk on the same afternoon

Aeroflot isn't that big. They have 90 airplanes in their fleet, and only 15 of those planes have the range to do SVO-KHV non-stop with a full passenger load.
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B777-700
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
What most western airlines would do in a similar situation, would be to immediately start to rebook the passengers onto other flights,

Not if there aren't seats.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
and provide them with meals and accommodation during the wait.

Depending on why the flight canceled.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
Moreover, they would not put the pax from the next flight into the same "waiting list" for the next flight.

Really? That's funny. I do that all the time.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 9):
There were other flights. There are at least two other airlines with non-stop flights between MOW-KHV, plus several airlines with connecting flights. I have a hard time believing that all those flights were full.

But you don't know. And if there were seats, why wouldn't SU take those seats? I don't understand why you think they would want to make people miserable.

Again, it's just one bad flight, as reported by your 'friend'. Not a reflection of the airline.
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RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 10):
Not if there aren't seats.



Quoting B777-700 (Reply 10):
But you don't know. And if there were seats, why wouldn't SU take those seats?

Let me explain to you: My friend's flight was on a Thursday. Aeroflot had four flights that week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. So the next Aeroflot flight was on Monday, five days after the Wednesday flight that was cancelled. During those five days, there were at least ten non-stop flights, plus a lot of possible connection flights. I'm sure that they had at least 30 different possibilities to choose from. There's no way that all those flights would be full up to five days in advance.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 10):
Really? That's funny. I do that all the time.

What? Are you trying to say that you work for an airline, and that you take a whole planeload of passengers with confirmed tickets and put them on a waiting list? If so, please tell me which airline you work for, and I will avoid that airline in the future.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 10):
I don't understand why you think they would want to make people miserable.

Because, as I wrote earlier, I've experienced similar things several times. A few years ago I was on an SU B734 flight which was aborted during the take-off roll for mechanical reasons. I spent a very miserable night at SVO, and SU did nothing to help us or give us information on when they would be able to fix the problem. The only information we got was: "If you want your money back, you can get it."

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 10):
Again, it's just one bad flight, as reported by your 'friend'. Not a reflection of the airline.

Of all the cancellations, delays, overbookings and similar problems that I personally or any of my friends have experience, I can only recall one event where Aeroflot behaved in an acceptable manner: A friend of mine was put into a hotel at SVO because she missed her connecting flight. In all other similar situations that I have personally experienced or been told about by friends, Aeroflot has chosen the route of not taking care of the passengers at all.

If you don't experience any delays, overbookings, cancellations, missed connections, etc., then I would agree that Aeroflot is usually "acceptable." But when these above mentioned problems occur, that's when Aeroflot almost always totally fails to take care of their passengers.
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UN_B732
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:21 am

Aeroflot is trying hard to improve. I will say they've got a long way to go - most of Russia's population was born under the Soviet regime, and some concepts of Western customer service are hard to understand - although we/they are getting there.
-Mr. X
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ly7e7
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 1):
It read something like "Fly the Aeroflot Planes"

I remember that one... In those times it could be amended with "...cause you won't find any other ones"
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
B777-700
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
During those five days, there were at least ten non-stop flights, plus a lot of possible connection flights. I'm sure that they had at least 30 different possibilities to choose from. There's no way that all those flights would be full up to five days in advance.

And did it ever occur to your 'friend' to contact SU and have them put her on one of those carriers?

Again, if that was an option, they would do it.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
What? Are you trying to say that you work for an airline, and that you take a whole planeload of passengers with confirmed tickets and put them on a waiting list?

Yea, it's called standby. If there aren't any seats left on the next flight, sometimes that's the only other option, and hope that some people don't show up. Usually not a whole plane load, but really anyone that wants to try can.

It's a very common thing. Again, I just have a hard time believing that what your friend says occurred, actually happened that way.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
If so, please tell me which airline you work for, and I will avoid that airline in the future.

JetBlue  Wink

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
I spent a very miserable night at SVO, and SU did nothing to help us or give us information on when they would be able to fix the problem.

Another very common thing. People RON in airports every night for various reasons. Sometimes, there just are no other options. It's not what the airlines want, but sometimes that's just reality.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
The only information we got was: "If you want your money back, you can get it."

Another industry standard option.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
In all other similar situations that I have personally experienced or been told about by friends, Aeroflot has chosen the route of not taking care of the passengers at all.

Most of the time, people have unreasonable expectations. Again, none of my Russian friends have had any problems you are claiming to have had.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
But when these above mentioned problems occur, that's when Aeroflot almost always totally fails to take care of their passengers.

There's no factual basis for that. Again, it's just your experience, and not a assessment of the airline.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 14):
And did it ever occur to your 'friend' to contact SU and have them put her on one of those carriers?

If you would have read my first post, you would have seen that she actually managed to get on the flight.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 14):
Yea, it's called standby. If there aren't any seats left on the next flight, sometimes that's the only other option, and hope that some people don't show up.



Quoting B777-700 (Reply 14):
It's a very common thing.

I've never, ever heard about any airline which took a whole planeload of passengers with confirmed tickets and put all of them on standby.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 14):
Again, I just have a hard time believing that what your friend says occurred, actually happened that way.

That I can understand. I mean, you don't know me, and it's very easy to put out all kinds of rumors and lies on an Internet forum like this one. Unfortunately, there's probably nothing I can do to convince you that this is really the truth.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 14):
JetBlue

I might have guessed...  Wink

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 14):
Again, none of my Russian friends have had any problems you are claiming to have had.

Could you tell me about any of your friends who experienced a cancellation, missed connection, etc., and who were treated in an appropriate way? I'm just asking because, as I said above, I only know one person who got proper treatment from Aeroflot in such a situation.
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Thorben
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:51 am

Nothing against the Russians, but good service seems to be rare over there. I once took a Russian train from Berlin to Moscow and back. The crew was sometimes very unfriendly, so was the service at some places in Moscow. However, I got along very well with people when they weren't working.
France 1789; Eastern Germany 1989; Tunisia 2011; Egypt 2011
 
RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 12):
Aeroflot is trying hard to improve.

In my experience, one Russian airline which is really trying to improve is Siberia. Granted, I've only made 13 flights with S7, but on several of those flights I really got the impression that they were trying their best to provide decent service.

E.g. on one Siberia flight, which was overbooked in economy, I was immediately bumped up to business class. When the same thing happened on an Aeroflot flight, the check-in people didn't want to put me on the plane at all, despite the fact that there were several free seats in business class. I had to quarrel with the check-in people for a long time. Eventually, they bumped up another non-revving family into business, and I got a whole three-seater in economy.
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B777-700
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 15):
If you would have read my first post, you would have seen that she actually managed to get on the flight

I did read your post. So why the issue about putting her on another carrier? Something doesn't add up here.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 15):
I've never, ever heard about any airline which took a whole planeload of passengers with confirmed tickets and put all of them on standby.

Neither have I, which is why I doubt it happened that way.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 15):
Could you tell me about any of your friends who experienced a cancellation, missed connection, etc., and who were treated in an appropriate way? I'm just asking because, as I said above, I only know one person who got proper treatment from Aeroflot in such a situation.

The word 'appropriate' is open to interpretation. Depending on the reason for the cancel, all an airline is required to do is rebook you on the next available flight, even if it's another carrier. Key word is available.

Again, not knowing the variables, there's no way to know if SU acted appropriately or not.
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MOW
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:55 am

Quoting Levg79 (Reply 1):
the days when Latvia was occupied by Russia

slightly off-topic, but where can I get more information about Russia occupying Latvia?

Quoting RedChili (Thread starter):
A couple of weeks ago, a friend of mine was flying Aeroflot on SVO-KHV

a very long post already, but i have yet to hear a single credible story of your own negative experience with SU. 'several free seats available in C / non-revving family got bumped up / they didn't want to put me on the plane' - type of stories doesn't count. obviously you'd had to seize control over the airline reservation/check-in computer to make these statements sound true.


I am flying SVO-KHV on SU next week. I will consider posting a trip report on a.net after I'm back in MOW.

[Edited 2006-09-21 22:06:10]
 
su
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:39 am

Obviously, you people do not live in Russia and deal with Aeroflot on a daily basis. I personally have seen and witnessed every single thing RedChili is referring too. It can sometimes be a complete disaster with them unless of course, you are willing to pay the agent however much they demand.
"Life is too short to take it serious..."
 
B777-700
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting SU (Reply 20):
Obviously, you people do not live in Russia and deal with Aeroflot on a daily basis. I personally have seen and witnessed every single thing RedChili is referring too. It can sometimes be a complete disaster with them unless of course, you are willing to pay the agent however much they demand.

Another angry, irrational passenger.

I've yet to see or hear of anything happening on SU that hasn't happened on any other airline from time to time.
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RedChili
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 18):
I did read your post. So why the issue about putting her on another carrier? Something doesn't add up here.

Then go back and read it again. There was one plane which was cancelled the day before, so they had two planeloads of passengers wanting to be on one airplane. They told everybody: "The first people to the check-in counters will be able to fly." My friend was one of the first to the check-in, so she was able to fly. So the problem was not about her, but about all the other passengers.

First, a whole planeload of people were waiting from Wednesday to Thursday to get on the Thursday flight. And because of the "survival of the fittest" check-in on Thursday, many of the passengers with confirmed tickets for the Thursday flight were not able to fly on their flight. So Aeroflot actually messed up and caused big problems for passengers on two separate flights because one flight was cancelled.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 18):
The word 'appropriate' is open to interpretation. Depending on the reason for the cancel, all an airline is required to do is rebook you on the next available flight, even if it's another carrier. Key word is available.

But the thing is that they didn't rebook any passengers on any other flight. On top of that, they took the Thursday passengers with a confirmed ticket and un-booked them from that flight also, thus making the mess even bigger. Sometimes I have the feeling that Aeroflot is run by Basil Fawlty.

Quoting MOW (Reply 19):
a very long post already, but i have yet to hear a single credible story of your own negative experience with SU. 'several free seats available in C / non-revving family got bumped up / they didn't want to put me on the plane' - type of stories doesn't count. obviously you'd had to seize control over the airline reservation/check-in computer to make these statements sound true.

What is it that is not credible about that story? I was standing next to the non-revving family as they bumped them up into business class. Because of all the mess, I was the last person to board the airplane, and I saw many free seats in business class as I boarded. In the end, I had three seats all to myself in economy class (where the non-revving family was supposed to sit before they bumped them up). I don't need access to their reservation system to know this. I can just use my eyes and look at all the empty seats.

Quoting SU (Reply 20):
Obviously, you people do not live in Russia and deal with Aeroflot on a daily basis. I personally have seen and witnessed every single thing RedChili is referring too

Thank you for your support, SU.
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B777-700
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
Then go back and read it again. There was one plane which was cancelled the day before, so they had two planeloads of passengers wanting to be on one airplane. They told everybody: "The first people to the check-in counters will be able to fly." My friend was one of the first to the check-in, so she was able to fly. So the problem was not about her, but about all the other passengers.

First, a whole planeload of people were waiting from Wednesday to Thursday to get on the Thursday flight. And because of the "survival of the fittest" check-in on Thursday, many of the passengers with confirmed tickets for the Thursday flight were not able to fly on their flight. So Aeroflot actually messed up and caused big problems for passengers on two separate flights because one flight was cancelled.

But you said this...

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
During those five days, there were at least ten non-stop flights, plus a lot of possible connection flights. I'm sure that they had at least 30 different possibilities to choose from. There's no way that all those flights would be full up to five days in advance.

And again, how do you know people weren't put on those flights? How do you know they weren't full? You don't, but the fact that, as you claim, two plane loads of people were fighting for one flight...that tells me options were limited in that market.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
But the thing is that they didn't rebook any passengers on any other flight.

You have no way of knowing if they did or not, or even if it was a option to them. You're taking your friends word for it, based on what she heard or think she saw. Passengers get it wrong a lot of the time.

In this industry, one constant is, there is a reason for everything. If there was as many options for SU as you claim above, there must not have been seats available to rebook the displaced pax.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 22):
What is it that is not credible about that story?

Well, it's pretty clear now you just have some beef w/ SU and try to run them down every chance you get. Again, I see nothing here that you've said that doesn't happen on any other carrier from time to time.

Hell, Delta had flights over booked by 40-50 people to Brazil this summer. Things happen. One experience, or even several in 'tons' of flights does not make an airline bad.

Whatever grudge you have against SU, get over it. If you don't like them, don't fly them. This isn't the USSR and you have plenty of options now. That's the easiest thing to do, there's no need to run them down every chance you get.
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 3):
The problem is, with Aeroflot, you never know!

As with EVERY other airline in the industry!

Quoting RedChili (Reply 11):
But when these above mentioned problems occur, that's when Aeroflot almost always totally fails to take care of their passengers.

I can't even count the number of times I have flown on SU. The airline has improved tremendously over the years. Customer service is way better than it had been just 5 years ago. Even though I doubt your friend's story to be exactly like he told you, I do agree that Aeroflot does have problems, as does any airline on this planet.
This whole wait-list problem, it happens everywhere. I was flying UN from DME last year, and a S7 flight was cancelled. ALL the pax were waitlisted, and told they will be able to fly out on a first-com first-serve basis. This is what apparently happened to your buddy as well.
I've faced Aeroflot's problems on many occasions, but you really just have to deal with it. They are getting better. A lot of the employees are overwhelmed. Checking in for a SU flight to LHR last month, many employees were still trying to figure out how SkyTeam benefits work. It's all new to them. For the amount of time they've had, they are doing an amazing job. That is exactly why I'm thinking of going out to work for them in the near future.

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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 23):
But you said this...

I believe I have been consistent the whole time in stating that my friend was able to get on the flight, but many other passengers were not able to.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 23):
And again, how do you know people weren't put on those flights? How do you know they weren't full? You don't, but the fact that, as you claim, two plane loads of people were fighting for one flight...that tells me options were limited in that market.

Even if what you suggest would be true, that there were no seats available for other flights, that's not an excuse to un-book all passengers from the Thursday flight.

But I totally agree with what SU said in reply 20: "Obviously, you people do not live in Russia and deal with Aeroflot on a daily basis." If you only fly on Aeroflot once or twice, chances are that you will never experience any problems like the one I described above. But when you fly with them constantly, you're bound to end up with all kinds of problems.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 23):
Again, I see nothing here that you've said that doesn't happen on any other carrier from time to time.

Delta had flights over booked by 40-50 people to Brazil this summer.

But the flight that I mentioned in reply 17 was only overbooked in economy, with free seats in business! And Aeroflot was planning to put a non-revving family into economy, and take off with empty seats in business class, and bump me from the flight altogether! I'm quite sure that Delta would never do that!

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 23):
Whatever grudge you have against SU, get over it. If you don't like them, don't fly them. This isn't the USSR and you have plenty of options now. That's the easiest thing to do, there's no need to run them down every chance you get.

Correct. And since this isn't the USSR, it also means that I have freedom of speech and the right to tell people about what I've experienced. To use your own words: "If you don't like my post, don't read it. This isn't the USSR and you have plenty of options to read other threads."
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afay1
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:43 am

I too flew on Aeroflot extensively between 2002-2004 and had mostly good experiences, but some ones that might give someone pause.

1. Checking in at MMK, the man in front of me was screamed at for asking to have his Aeroflot Silver card registered; the checkin matron asked essentially who did he think he was to ask such a question.

2. The Aeroflot ticket information desk at SVO refused on several occasions to look-up flights other than on a specified date; asking to look up a timetable for a week made them rather angry. On the other hand, their service center was always more than helpful.

3. Again at MMK, Aeroflot had not corrected the flight time for daylight savings, which had occurred the night before I flew. I arrived with plenty of time, but even the employees there couldn't verify what the flight was operating on and of course calling Moscow to find out was out of the question.

4. Checking in groups of children could sometimes cause trouble as the agents would ask point blank why they should check in all these people at once. Where else should they go?

5. I was once put on a replacement Tu-134 from VOG that truly felt unsafe. My window moved in its mount and made a pistol shot noise, for example. There was very little paint left on the fuselage, each seat was different, etc.

6. My collegaues were bringing a group back from Sochi in 2002 and had their flight cancelled, prompting a 2 DAY! wait in the airport. There are humorous pictures of an American high school class sleeping in the airport for 2 days like refugees. Their teachers were not amused...

Some of the incredulity that people who have never been to Russia are expressing is natural as you have to be there to experience some of the craziness that happens. Of course, I have had many bad experiences with airlines all over the world, and Aeroflot staff obviously tried in many circumstances to go out of their way to be nice to me as a foreigner and a merely passable speaker of Russian. The problem with Aeroflot is both that the airports often are terrible themselves and they still have staff that can and do create trouble when it is unwarranted. The Moscow Times regularly runs articles on particularly egregious examples....however, many people feel like a foreigner that criticizes Aeroflot is criticizing Russian people themselves in general, and this is not the case here.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:47 am

I'd have loved to have videoed the whole procedings and the ensuing fight for flight. Hillarious, sounds quite third world.

Regards
MH
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
I believe I have been consistent the whole time in stating that my friend was able to get on the flight, but many other passengers were not able to.

Great, so there's really no problem here. Whatever happened did not effect your friend, certainly didn't effect you...so what are you complaining about?

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
Even if what you suggest would be true, that there were no seats available for other flights, that's not an excuse to un-book all passengers from the Thursday flight.

You don't know if that happened or not. You most likely getting 3 hand information.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
Obviously, you people do not live in Russia and deal with Aeroflot on a daily basis." If you only fly on Aeroflot once or twice, chances are that you will never experience any problems like the one I described above. But when you fly with them constantly, you're bound to end up with all kinds of problems.

Uh uh. And Germans will tell you the same about LH...and the Brits will say the same about BA....and the Italians will say the same about AZ and so on...

Once again...what you described here is nothing strange for an airline. If you fly ANY airline enuff...sooner or later you will have a bad flight experience.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
But the flight that I mentioned in reply 17 was only overbooked in economy, with free seats in business! And Aeroflot was planning to put a non-revving family into economy, and take off with empty seats in business class, and bump me from the flight altogether! I'm quite sure that Delta would never do that!

You're right. Delta would have put the non revs in business  Wink

Quoting RedChili (Reply 25):
Correct. And since this isn't the USSR, it also means that I have freedom of speech and the right to tell people about what I've experienced. To use your own words: "If you don't like my post, don't read it. This isn't the USSR and you have plenty of options to read other threads."

That's true. And with that freedom, comes my freedom to reply to this.

Unless being miserable towards SU actually makes you happy (in which case, seek help) there's absolutely nothing you can do about the way you think they run their company except not fly them.

There...everyone is happy.
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 24):
As with EVERY other airline in the industry!

I agree that all airlines have problems with overbookings, cancellations, delays, etc. The reason that I'm criticizing Aeroflot is because they basically tell their passengers that "you're on your own" when such problems happen, while most other airlines would take responsibility for the situation and at least try to do something about it.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 24):
This whole wait-list problem, it happens everywhere. I was flying UN from DME last year, and a S7 flight was cancelled. ALL the pax were waitlisted, and told they will be able to fly out on a first-com first-serve basis. This is what apparently happened to your buddy as well.

Perhaps it was a similar situation, but when the S7 flight was cancelled, did they un-book passengers from other flights as well?

In my view, when a cancellation like this takes place, the airline should start re-booking passengers and give priority to:
1) Gold card holders.
2) Business class passengers.
3) Silver card holders.
4) Other frequent flyer members.
5) Other passengers in the order that they checked in or bought tickets for their original flight.

And they should do this without causing problems to other passengers on other flights.

I mean, the way that Aeroflot handled this case actuallly creates a security risk, when you have a lot of passengers who are fighting to get to the check-in as quickly as possible. An airline should not set up their passengers for a fist fight!
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:08 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 29):
I mean, the way that Aeroflot handled this case actuallly creates a security risk, when you have a lot of passengers who are fighting to get to the check-in as quickly as possible. An airline should not set up their passengers for a fist fight!

Again, you don't know that that was the case. You heard it from a friend.

That's about all I have left to say.
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 28):
Great, so there's really no problem here. Whatever happened did not effect your friend, certainly didn't effect you...so what are you complaining about?

For the umpteenth time, I'm thinking about all the other passengers.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 28):
You don't know if that happened or not. You most likely getting 3 hand information.

My friend told me that they called out this information over the loudspeakers. I don't know word-for-word what was called out, but the essence of it was: "If you're one of the first people to the check-in desks, you will be on the flight. If not, that's your problem." And this was the same information for those who had already been bumped the day before, and for those who had confirmed tickets for the Thursday flight.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 28):
That's true. And with that freedom, comes my freedom to reply to this.

You're most welcome to use that freedom, sir.

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 28):
Unless being miserable towards SU actually makes you happy (in which case, seek help) there's absolutely nothing you can do about the way you think they run their company except not fly them.

I can't express how much joy I got by ranting about Aeroflot in this thread!  Wink

On a more serious note, I know that I can't change the way they operate, but I can inform people about what risks they are taking if they choose to fly Aeroflot.
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 30):
Again, you don't know that that was the case. You heard it from a friend.

That's about all I have left to say.

I think we will have to agree to disagree about this one. I will believe that it happened exactly like my friend told me, while you will believe that it didn't happen exactly like that.
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B777-700
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 31):
On a more serious note, I know that I can't change the way they operate, but I can inform people about what risks they are taking if they choose to fly Aeroflot.

Please make sure to tell them that it's no greater risk than any other airline!

Take care!
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afay1
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:50 am

Oh for Pete's sake, RedChili knows what he is talking about through years of experience and you don't, which is blatently obvious. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. YES, other airlines have problems, WE KNOW, it's not a secret. Your answers are the equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?" What is your Aeroflot Bonus mileage accrued at at the moment, huh?
 
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 34):
What is your Aeroflot Bonus mileage accrued at at the moment, huh?

Pretty simple, I dont have one.

But the airline that I am elite on I fly about every week. And you know what? The have problems occationally. I've seen some pretty crazy stuff. It doesn't make the airline bad.

The big difference here, that you don't seem to grasp, is I, like most normal people...don't rush onto a.net and make a post here everytime I 'hear from a friend' about a bad experience regarding a particular airline.
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hjulicher
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 5):
Partly, the answer has also been that I've read (and believed) all the promises about that "we will improve our service." Now, I'm not so sure that I believe in them anymore.

Yes, I fly quite often to Moscow, and I have flown aeroflot on April 15th of this year, the day after they entered skyteam. Let me tell you my experiences with the new Aeroflot. THEY ARE SO MUCH BETTER than before. It's like night and day; HOWEVER, this does not mean they are near perfect, and i don't know what flying on aeroflot is like if flying domestically. Basically, Aeroflot has improved it image and service dramatically on international sectors, which is where they are really trying to improve their image the most. They are trying to garnish new international passengers. In Russia, aeroflot is still basically the same as they were. I mean, they don't resonate any differently with passengers there. It's their airline. So they procedures for a domestic flight can still be different, and service levels in Russia are dramatically different than in the US and in the west. It's sort of a way of life in Russia. RedChili, you are so shocked by what aeroflot did, because you're from the west. You are used things being done the western way, but for most of the passengers on your flight, I have to say, I suspect them to be russian. They understand the way things work. If you took the train, another airline, any other method, the service would be the same. It's not like the airline can change over night. You just have to accept the way things are there. They will change, but not like you hope the will, or the way you expect them to.

Anyone flying aeroflot domestically knows, that SU is basically playing on a different level in their own market. Who's their competition. Who has better service levels? Internationally, say CDG-MOW, SU has AF to compete with, so they must match the level of AF in order to stay competitive and basically asking the same fare. F/A's on board are much nicer and true aeroflot employees are very nice. I think the service levels of Aeroflot will be drastically different once SVO3 goes online. Remember that airports and airport employees, even the check-in counter agents, are employees not of aeroflot proper, but more of the airport. They service all the airlines at SVO. Maybe SVO2 is different, but I think SVO1 is the soviet style still.

Thirdly, Su has been making lots of changes, and as one member has said, it's hard to handle everything. I remember how helpful SU was in Germany when I was flying with my NW silver WP card. They offered me service into their world club! This was 3 days after they joined, and although it took a while for them to understand and realize what they had to do, they did it.

In Russia, and most former CIS states, things work differently. The mentality is different. Don't expect superb customer service because you won't get it, but if people are trained and taught what is expected in the industry, as I'm sure it will be once SVO3 comes around, I think aeroflot will be dramatically different. They will be handling both international and domestic flights in one terminal! I really think that what your friend experienced is something we call in america "growing pains".
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting B777-700 (Reply 35):
The big difference here, that you don't seem to grasp, is I, like most normal people...don't rush onto a.net and make a post here everytime I 'hear from a friend' about a bad experience regarding a particular airline.

I was thinking about what to answer to this one. Some suggestions:

"I didn't know there were any normal people posting on a.net at all... All the A/B wars have taught me otherwise."

"Do most normal people rush onto a.net and reply to the posts when somebody writes about a bad experience on a particular airline?"

"If you consider yourself to be normal, why do you bother about discussing this at great length with somebody who's obviously not normal?"

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 36):
Let me tell you my experiences with the new Aeroflot. THEY ARE SO MUCH BETTER than before. It's like night and day;

That's great to hear. I haven't flown SU since they entered SkyTeam, and I really hope that you are right. However, I've been disappointed so many times before, so I don't know whether I dare to believe that they have finally improved this time.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 36):
Anyone flying aeroflot domestically knows, that SU is basically playing on a different level in their own market. Who's their competition. Who has better service levels?

As I wrote in reply 5, I know that domestic Russian flights are a totally different game. If I have to choose between Samara Airlines and Aeroflot, I will choose Aeroflot all the time. But I still have to say that I've flown with two domestic Russian airlines which were definitely better than SU: They were Siberia and Transaero.

Quoting Hjulicher (Reply 36):
RedChili, you are so shocked by what aeroflot did, because you're from the west.

You could put it this way: I've visited a lot of Russian homes, and I have to say that the Russian "home hospitality" is far better than the same in Norway. But the Russian "business/work hospitality" is far below the same in the West. Why is it really so that Russians lose all sense of hospitality when they go to work? If Aeroflot and the Aeroflot employees would behave the same way at work as how they do with their guests at home, then Aeroflot would've been far better than even Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific.
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 37):
"If you consider yourself to be normal, why do you bother about discussing this at great length with somebody who's obviously not normal?"

Right, obviously you're not, because you keep flying an airline you can't stand, for some twisted reason that only you have the answer to.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 37):
However, I've been disappointed so many times before, so I don't know whether I dare to believe that they have finally improved this time.

So many times huh? What are we talking?...one in ten maybe? Statistically it cant be much more than that.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 37):
But I still have to say that I've flown with two domestic Russian airlines which were definitely better than SU: They were Siberia and Transaero.

...you forgot to add: 'in my opinion'  Wink

Quoting RedChili (Reply 37):
Why is it really so that Russians lose all sense of hospitality when they go to work?

Nice blanket statement. It's hard to take you seriously with comments like that.
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Sat Sep 23, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting RedChili (Reply 29):
The reason that I'm criticizing Aeroflot is because they basically tell their passengers that "you're on your own" when such problems happen, while most other airlines would take responsibility for the situation and at least try to do something about it.

Again, this is one situation in a million. My SU flights have cancelled in the past, and I never experienced anything like this. They promptly rebooked me on various flights, in fact other airlines on many occasions. Also paid for a hotel stay in CDG when a problem arose with a flight back to Moscow from Paris. IT HAPPENS. However, when my BA flight cancelled, I got absolutely sh*t from them. They refused to do anything, so I paid out of my own money to stay overnight. Now am I blaming BA for BAD service? NO. The airline industry is very complex, problems arise, and are sometimes beyond the control of the employees assisting you. If an agent is told to tell you she cannot help you by paying for your rebooking, he really can't. He is a spokesman for the problem at hand.

Quoting RedChili (Reply 29):
I mean, the way that Aeroflot handled this case actuallly creates a security risk, when you have a lot of passengers who are fighting to get to the check-in as quickly as possible. An airline should not set up their passengers for a fist fight!

Hjulicher brings up a VERY good point. SVO1 has airport personnel in charge for check-in and the rest of the ops. They perform the duties on behalf of most airlines departing. They, too, are told what to do. I know many people that travel domestically in Russia on a very regular basis, around weekly. None of them had anything happen like what happened to your friend if indeed the account is true. This does not reflect Aeroflot as a airline, not at all. It truly was a one in a million situation, as is definitely not worth ranting about.

I once had an argument with a SU FA about the overhead bins. I took something out of my bag, and was unable to close the bin for some reason. The latch was not working. I asked the FA for help. She replied, "Well if you can't do it, then I probably definitely won't be able to." She walked away. The purser was standing in the other aisle and heard this. Let me tell you, she got a nice lecture from him, which shut her up for the rest of the flight. The purser kindly came up to me and we closed the bin together because it required to people to do it.
Now, I didn't come home after the flight, and immediately start criticizing SU. People run into all sorts of problems all over the world. And if the day isn't working out for you, just suck it up and do what's best to improve it. Airlines deal with thousands of problems on a daily basis. And I'm sure that it was not on their agenda to cancel the flight and put everyone on a wait-list. There must have been some reason for that action.

Aeroflot777
 
levg79
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RE: Aeroflot: Survival Of The Fittest

Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting MOW (Reply 19):
slightly off-topic, but where can I get more information about Russia occupying Latvia?

If you really don't know, you might find the following artice useful:
http://www.occupationmuseum.lv/lat/s...s/gramatu%20faili/3_okupacijas.pdf

How come is it that the whole western world knows that Latvia was occupied by Russia except for our Russian members. Is it really lack of knowledge or pure ignorance?

Leo.

P.S. Sorry for straying away from the topic.
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