burnsie28
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NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:07 am

A quote from Doug Steenland

Quote:
"We're also looking at making an announcement in the next week or two about a 76-seat regional jet that would be targeted for a Spring 2007 delivery."

Also, NW will use the 787 for many non-stop to china routes

Quote:
"Similarly, around the third quarter of 2008 we're planning to introduce the 787 into our Pacific route structure," Steenland continued. "This aircraft is clearly a 'game changer' that will allow us to get back into the U.S.-China non-stop market."

There you have it
 
SESGDL
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or

Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:43 am

Will MSP get any of the new routes to Asia? It would be nice to get back MSP-KIX or HKG, or get a new nonstop flight to Asia from MSP. Maybe this will allow for the long-awaited MSP-CDG route. It seems like NW has given up MSP for expansion as everything is put through DTW. Hopefully this changes as MSP is still their busiest airport by passengers carried.

Jeremy
 
centrair
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
"We're also looking at making an announcement in the next week or two about a 76-seat regional jet that would be targeted for a Spring 2007 delivery."

This is the EMB-175s discussed yesterday in two threads and in FI. Compass will operate them.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
Maybe this will allow for the long-awaited MSP-CDG route.

If this route ever comes to fruition it will be with an A333. A 787-8 would be overkill. With AF and KLM basically being the same company, they could reduce one AMS run and move it to CDG or just invite AF to operate the flight.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
It seems like NW has given up MSP for expansion as everything is put through DTW.

MSP needs more International gates to be able to have more expansion. There are many gates that can handle a 787 for departures but there are limits for international arrivals at this point. What is it...5 or 6 gates? They need about 10 to 15 to make it worth while. Under the next renovation more gates will be connected to Customs and Immigration. MSP is bound to get more international flights. Maybe NW will push MAC to move forward on just that expansion so that MSP can get the international movement it needs and wants.

This is the first hint though of how NW will use their 787s. As many said they will use them to overfly Japan. I could see PEK, PVG, and HKG as non-stops with 787s. We could see MSP loose one 744 to NRT replaced with one 787 with a non-stop to a new destination like KIX with another 787.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Steenland continued. "This aircraft is clearly a 'game changer' that will allow us to get back into the U.S.-China non-stop market."

DUH! If you shoot yourself in the foot in the 1990s and not have a long-term strategy for Asian ops, any aircraft smaller than a 747 with legs could be a game changer. BAKA YARO! STEENLAND WA MATTAKU WAKARANI DESUNE. KARE NO NOMISO WA UNCHI.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
MattMSP767
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:20 am

I would love to see NW fly the Embraer, but what source are you quoting Steenland from?
 
SESGDL
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
What is it...5 or 6 gates?

At the moment there are just 5 international gates (with customs): G1-G5.

Jeremy
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:47 am

Good news, But how can they afford this?
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futurecaptain
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:55 am

So, when the last 787 is retired will the crew be ferried back on a DC-9?
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centrair
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 5):
Good news, But how can they afford this?

If I understand it, the E-175s go to Compass which is a Subsidiary under the NWA Corporation which includes NW Cargo and NW airlines. Compass has a separate certificate and so is essentially a separate company. Separate company =separate investment. NW wanted Compass as an equity company that can be borrowed against in the future. Maybe someone can correct me if I am wrong but that is what I understood.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
COERJ145
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting YYZatcboy (Reply 5):
Good news, But how can they afford this?

They've been reporting monthly profits and quarterly net profits(bankruptcy costs excluded). Also, they've been cutting back labor costs.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
So, when the last 787 is retired will the crew be ferried back on a DC-9?

LOL!! Big grin
 
Mikey711MN
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 4):
At the moment there are just 5 international gates (with customs): G1-G5

Actually, I believe G1-G10 are all connected to the customs facility, i.e. the outer walkway is accessible from each of those gates. Certainly G6 is as I've personally seen many a 747 and DC-10 headed for international destinations at that gate.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:11 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 7):
Compass has a separate certificate

Fly i's old certificate.
 
centrair
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:12 pm

A look at NW's fleet...

Mainline
DC-9
A319
A320
757-200
757-300
A330-200
A330-300
DC-10*
787-8**
747-200***
747-400

Compass (Airlink?)
EMB-175****

Airlink
Mesaba
Saab 340
CRJ-200
Avro RJ85*****

Pinnacle
CRJ-200
CRJ-400

*being retired gone by next year
**Coming in a few years
***not sure but they are getting old
****new to fleet/ops
*****leaving/left the fleet/ops

Only things left to replace DC-9s and 747-200s. (any ideas on those)
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting MattMSP767 (Reply 3):
would love to see NW fly the Embraer

I think they will be. Eventually, they will use the E-190 for mainline to phase out the classic DC-9 and then Compass will operate the E-175

To my knowledge, I believe that is how it will pan out.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
This is the EMB-175s discussed yesterday in two threads and in FI. Compass will operate them.

I know, but the other "source" said they wouldn't announce an aircraft order until April.

Quoting MattMSP767 (Reply 3):
I would love to see NW fly the Embraer, but what source are you quoting Steenland from?

Northwest... he said these in September 19th and 20th Insight Session. Where corporate and travel agency customers come and tell NW what they want to see, apparently on-board service was a rather big focus, some changes could be coming in that area. No details however were given from that.
 
B2443
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Thread starter):
This aircraft is clearly a 'game changer' that will allow us to get back into the U.S.-China non-stop market."

Would that mean NW, before 787s come, doesn't have the aircraft even if it wants to "get back into the US-China non-stop market". Notice how they said how they would operate DTW-PVG in the recent application:

http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2006/pr081720061695.html

"Detroit to Shanghai nonstop service is Northwest’s top international route priority"

"Northwest proposes to commence nonstop Detroit to Shanghai service on or about March 25, 2007, using its Boeing 747-400 with 65 World Business Class and 338 coach class seats. "

They wouldn't have the 744's even if they did get granted DTW-PVG.
 
snnus
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:04 am

Are they still Etopsing ( if thats a word) the 752's in the fleet?
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
It seems like NW has given up MSP for expansion as everything is put through DTW.

It was tried and failed. MSP has not had enough solid traffic to keep the international flights they've had ver the years. MSP-OSL, KIX, FRA were never really all that full.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
If this route ever comes to fruition it will be with an A333. A 787-8 would be overkill.

Overkill? the 788 is smaller that A333. They're only supposed to seat around 228, while the A333 seat 298. Anyway, I think some A332's will start leaving the fleet after we start getting the 787. If we order the 787-9/10, the 333's will start to be on their way out also

Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):
This is the first hint though of how NW will use their 787s. As many said they will use them to overfly Japan. I could see PEK, PVG, and HKG as non-stops with 787s

Publicly maybe, but a year ago, in the company newsletter "passages" Doug mentioned the 787 being the aircraft it needed to stay competitve on the long, thin routes, such as JFK-NRT, and DTW-PVG

Quoting B2443 (Reply 14):
Would that mean NW, before 787s come, doesn't have the aircraft even if it wants to "get back into the US-China non-stop market". Notice how they said how they would operate DTW-PVG in the recent application:

Not neccessarily. Even when we flew DTW-PEK, and PVG, we were never really able to remain competitive, we only flew them 3 and 4 times a week respectively. But this would probably enable us to operate to multiple Chinese destinations, form mutiple US cities. Markets that were a pipedream 3-5 years ago. We would still operate the DTW-PVG route, even if it was unprofitable, just get our foot in the door. When the right aircraft comes around, then start to realign aircraft usage. With the lower labour costs now, NWA has lot more money to play with, and can stomach a losing route here and there, as long as future outlook remains bright. Which mean, if NWA gets the route authority(which I believe we will over the others), we will operate the 744 on the route regardless of whether we can fill it up, which I do believe we can at the present economics. Passengers connecting on to PVG through NRT, many are from DTW, and many come from NW11.

Quoting B2443 (Reply 14):
They wouldn't have the 744's even if they did get granted DTW-PVG.

We could either lease a few. there quite a few coming up for sale, and a few available for lease. Or we could bring some 747-200's that are in storage, and put them on the HNL/LAX-NRT and redeploy those 400's on the DTW-PVG route.
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SESGDL
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 16):
It was tried and failed. MSP has not had enough solid traffic to keep the international flights they've had ver the years. MSP-OSL, KIX, FRA were never really all that full.

MSP-OSL didn't work because OSL isn't a substantial market for US travel from a place like MSP. DL with its huge JFK operation doesn't even serve OSL yet, though I'm sure they will. MSP-KIX/FRA didn't work because there was already service from DTW, and both of those markets aren't large enough from MSP and DTW to warrant two daily flights from two American gateways. But do people really believe that DTW-China routes would work either? There really isn't that big of a market, at least in comparison to EWR and IAD. DTW is also far North of much of the population base and is too far East to be a viable Asian hub. Nobody going from DEN to Asia is going to use DTW, it's easier for most people to simply fly to LAX or SFO where fares are cheaper and there are more options. I've always thought MSP was a better Trans-Pacific hub than DTW as it has higher passenger numbers and is further West. The only reason NW currently operates DTW-KIX/NGO is due to the large Ford/GM presence in DTW and the car market in Japan. While DTW is a bigger city than MSP, its O&D is lower, and DTW is by no means an international business city. It seems that NW would like for DTW to become a huge international gateway to the world, similar to what DL has done to ATL but on a much smaller scale (as DTW will never be able to accommodate US-Latin America traffic because it's simply too far North and the market is too small). We'll see how it works out though.

Jeremy
 
thegooddoctor
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
So, when the last 787 is retired will the crew be ferried back on a DC-9?

LOL! A renovated DC-9 will actually REPLACE the 787 when it comes time for the retiremtn of this aircraft. It will be equipped with two more engines (right next to the current ones) and will have very very large external fuel tanks...


I for one am very sad that they are replacing the ARJ's... Will the new emb's have FC at least?

S
The GoodDoctor
 
futurecaptain
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Reply 18):
It will be equipped with two more engines (right next to the current ones

Been there, done that...  Smile


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isitsafenow
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:03 am

Dougies quote says...third quarter of 2008. Excuse me for acting dumb, but didn't Boeing say the 787 would be in PASSENGER SERVICE in 2010?
Maybe Dougie meant "take delivery in the third quarter".

safe
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flyf15
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
Pinnacle
CRJ-200
CRJ-400

The -440s are all being converted back to -200s.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 11):
Mesaba
Saab 340
CRJ-200

Mesaba only has one CRJ-200 and it'll be gone soon... probably sometime next month.
 
gabypn1992
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:05 am

I think that they gonna order some CRJ-900. I don't know if they gonna be for MWA Airlink or Northwest Airline but...

[Edited 2006-09-21 21:12:25]
Fly With Me!!!
 
toltommy
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or

Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Allegedly from Steenland (Thread starter):
"We're also looking at making an announcement in the next week or two about a 76-seat regional jet that would be targeted for a Spring 2007 delivery."



Quoting Centrair (Reply 2):

This is the EMB-175s discussed yesterday in two threads and in FI. Compass will operate them.

This leads more credibility to the order being for CRJ-705/900's. Unless NW is paying extra to cut in line for Embraers, there's no way they can get E175/190's by the spring of '07. Republic has a big order for 175's, and JetBlue for 190's, not to mention others with orders.

Bombardier is sitting on deposits for cancelled CRJ200/440 orders. NW is not going to just forfeit the money, and they need planes quickly to carry out their plans to restructure the airline. If they want planes that fast, it has to be Bombardier.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 20):
Maybe Dougie meant "take delivery in the third quarter".

Uh, the first NW 787 will be delivered in Summer 2008. The A350 was originally scheduled for 2010.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:13 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 16):

Overkill? the 788 is smaller that A333. They're only supposed to seat around 228, while the A333 seat 298. Anyway, I think some A332's will start leaving the fleet after we start getting the 787. If we order the 787-9/10, the 333's will start to be on their way out also

NW has been nothing but happy with the A330. I doubt they'd drop the A332s, which will be still pretty new when the 787s come online. My thought is they would shift the A332's to transatlantic flights on thinner routes than would justify an A333. Plus, at this point they couldn't get any additional 787s still what, 2012-2013? The A330s will be around for a while.

Quoting Isitsafenow (Reply 20):
Dougies quote says...third quarter of 2008. Excuse me for acting dumb, but didn't Boeing say the 787 would be in PASSENGER SERVICE in 2010?
Maybe Dougie meant "take delivery in the third quarter".

Nope. First deliveries of 787s commence in 2008.

Quoting Gabypn1992 (Reply 22):
I think that they gonna order some CRJ-900. I don't know if they gonna be for MWA Airlink or Northwest Airline but...

Somewhere at NW, someone is getting some more bombardier jets is my guess.... that deposit may as well get used so long as it's sitting there.

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 23):
This leads more credibility to the order being for CRJ-705/900's. Unless NW is paying extra to cut in line for Embraers, there's no way they can get E175/190's by the spring of '07. Republic has a big order for 175's, and JetBlue for 190's, not to mention others with orders.

Bombardier is sitting on deposits for cancelled CRJ200/440 orders. NW is not going to just forfeit the money, and they need planes quickly to carry out their plans to restructure the airline. If they want planes that fast, it has to be Bombardier.

Bingo. Bombardier has the deposit, they already have a good number of CRJ's flying, and Bombardier can deliver fast, plus the reliability on CRJ is top notch, where at the E-jets are still having teething issues.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
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4everRC
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 16):
Anyway, I think some A332's will start leaving the fleet after we start getting the 787. If we order the 787-9/10, the 333's will start to be on their way out also

WHAT?!?!?!? NW has been nothing but happy with these aircraft, and with their history of flying things until the wings fall off (and then one more flight), what leads you to believe that they would get rid of them?
Nobody served our republic like Republic!
 
toltommy
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 25):

Bingo. Bombardier has the deposit, they already have a good number of CRJ's flying, and Bombardier can deliver fast, plus the reliability on CRJ is top notch, where at the E-jets are still having teething issues.

Thank goodness I'm not alone in this thinking! I don't hear the general public complaining about the -900's over at US, just the operator! Personally, I'd rather see the Ejets, they are a better ride. I spend a lot of time on ZW's CRJ's DTW-PHL. I'm not a big guy, but it still a tight fit. The 170 has been a welcome addition, and for the record I haven't experienced a mechanical delay on the airplane yet. I think the "teething" problems can be put to rest.
 
beech19
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
So, when the last 787 is retired will the crew be ferried back on a DC-9?

I swear... they will never get rid of those.

I can just see it. Its the year 2106 and we are all flying around in hypersonic scram jets and NW will be turning those DC-9's into nostalgia a/c with the old Northwest Orient paint scheme. lol
KPAE via KBVY
 
CRJ900
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 27):
Thank goodness I'm not alone in this thinking!

We can all wish, but flightglobal.com/Flight International had an article about NWA buying the E175, and FI tend to be pretty accurate, aren't they?
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af773atmsp
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:48 am

Here are the possible routes from MSP.

787
MSP-HKG
MSP-KIX
MSP-Dublin
A330
MSP-HNL
MSP-LGW
MSP-CDG
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
MSP-OSL didn't work because OSL isn't a substantial market for US travel from a place like MSP.

Are trying to reinforce the point I was making?

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
MSP-KIX/FRA didn't work because there was already service from DTW, and both of those markets aren't large enough from MSP and DTW to warrant two daily flights from two American gateways

Well if that was the reason, then why does LGW perform so well out of both MSP and DTW? Again, reinforcing what i'm saying. MSP-KIX was cancelled because economically, it was a poorly performing flight, and with a majority of it's connecting passengers coming from such places like BOS, JFK/EWR/LGA, PHL, IAD/DCA, and ORD, Detroit was a more logical place to route them. The residual passengers could be sent to SEA to connect on to NW95, which operated 5X a week.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
But do people really believe that DTW-China routes would work either? There really isn't that big of a market, at least in comparison to EWR and IAD.

But it's a centralised hub with a newer terminal, and closer connections to the east coast which is stategically more important than ahving a hub NYC. It's actually more beneficial to be able to draw traffic from these large markets, because it keeps a steady stream of loyal customer base which would make a route like DTW-PVG more realistic now than what it was 4 years ago, when traffic was down 12% from 2000. We're in a different economic situation now. Our China traffic is getting alot stronger, stronger than it was in 2000-01 when we had the n/s to PVG and PEK. So our return to the n/s China market is long overdue. IAD is not that hot of a market to Aisa, for the longest time, NH was the only route NRT, until UA started up. Traffic to Europe was marginal only until a few years ago. The largest intenational market in IAD/Washington/DC market, is to Africa. Before airline alliances, there was very little international traffic from IAD except for the usual carriers like BA, AF, and LH. It's only been in the last 10 years that IAD really started to expand as much as it has. It is a very lucretive market. But DTW is far more busy and able to support a n/s China route.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
DTW is also far North of much of the population base and is too far East to be a viable Asian hub

Is it? Tell that to the thousands of Asian passngers that connect through DTW going YYZ, YUL, and many other eastern Canadian cities, as well as the other big cities on the east coast. NYC, BOS, PHL, DCA, and ORF, yes I said ORF, big Filipino population from the Navy legacy. With other cities crammed to it's limits with it's present traffic.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
Nobody going from DEN to Asia is going to use DTW, it's easier for most people to simply fly to LAX or SFO where fares are cheaper and there are more options.

No, but people from MKE(which the Ginsing herb is a big market) ORD, CLE, NYC, and others. The SFO and LAX market won't better serve the east coast where the are many Chinese citizens.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
The only reason NW currently operates DTW-KIX/NGO is due to the large Ford/GM presence in DTW and the car market in Japan

And your point would be? It's not an intenational metropolis, but with GM, and Ford owning as many car companies, it creates its base for customers.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
While DTW is a bigger city than MSP, its O&D is lower, and DTW is by no means an international business city

Who cares, it's worked well for us. The Auto industry doesn't just circulate around the big three. There are a number of car-part manufactureres that market part to other carmakers around the world.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 17):
It seems that NW would like for DTW to become a huge international gateway to the world, similar to what DL has done to ATL but on a much smaller scale (as DTW will never be able to accommodate US-Latin America traffic because it's simply too far North and the market is too small).

And ATL could support a huge Asian network? Not likely. Next year with DTW is project to build it's overseas flights to 27 international flights, will increase it's reach around the globe by double it's size now, which is 13.
Made from jets!
 
centrair
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 30):
Here are the possible routes from MSP.

787
MSP-HKG
MSP-KIX
MSP-Dublin
A330
MSP-HNL
MSP-LGW
MSP-CDG

Nice list...not so sure about MSP-Dublin though.

I'll add one to your 787 list (for fun..don't know if it is realistic).
MSP-MNL making MSP-NRT a 787 as well
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
SESGDL
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:43 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 31):

Is it? Tell that to the thousands of Asian passngers that connect through DTW going YYZ, YUL, and many other eastern Canadian cities, as well as the other big cities on the east coast. NYC, BOS, PHL, DCA, and ORF, yes I said ORF, big Filipino population from the Navy legacy. With other cities crammed to it's limits with it's present traffic.

Not nearly as many people as use JFK, EWR, or ORD for Asian connections. All of these people can go to LAX or SFO as well.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 31):
And ATL could support a huge Asian network? Not likely. Next year with DTW is project to build it's overseas flights to 27 international flights, will increase it's reach around the globe by double it's size now, which is 13.

ATL could support a number of flights to Asia: KIX, ICN (has service), NRT (has service), PVG, PEK (DL will get this in 2008), and HKG. I think ATL could support more flights than DTW could. The Florida-Asia market is enormous, and ATL is perfectly positioned to handle this traffic. ATL can support flights to almost any big city simply due to massive amounts of connecting passengers, not that it would be profitable, but it could fill up. DL at ATL has 3/4 as many connecting passengers each year as DTW has period. Impressive.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 31):

Well if that was the reason, then why does LGW perform so well out of both MSP and DTW?

In a news article in Minneapolis I read that MSP-LGW has a market of about 196 people per day, which is enough to sustain nonstop service. There isn't a market for MSP-KIX for example.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 31):
It's only been in the last 10 years that IAD really started to expand as much as it has. It is a very lucretive market. But DTW is far more busy and able to support a n/s China route.

Huh? IAD is MUCH busier than DTW internationally and always will be. And how is DTW more able to support DTW-PVG service. There are over 200 daily IAD-PEK O&D passengers, DTW probably has less than 50. Are you comparing D.C. and Detroit as markets? That's insane. D.C. Has some 50 million O&D passengers a year to DTW's 15 million. That's like comparing MSP and Chicago, not even similar.

All I'm saying is that I don't believe that DTW-PVG is a substantial market, it's not there. It doesn't matter anyway though because NW's not getting the new service.

Jeremy
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:20 pm

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 33):
It doesn't matter anyway though because NW's not getting the new service.

Yes we will.
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Motorhussy
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:41 pm

Could/would NW come down to this part of the world once they've got their new birds? Another American airline is entitled to Australia and New Zealand (well, two to New Zealand). That would be SkyTeam here via not just KE!

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
centrair
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 35):
Could/would NW come down to this part of the world once they've got their new birds? Another American airline is entitled to Australia and New Zealand (well, two to New Zealand). That would be SkyTeam here via not just KE!

I remember someone saying something about the Australian government prefering UA over NW and basically pushed NW out. NW still had LAX-SYD then.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
SESGDL
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:21 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 34):
Yes we will.

You honestly think that NW's going to get DTW-PVG over UA's IAD-PEK, CO's EWR-PVG, or AA's DFW-PVG (or is it PEK)? Not a chance in hell. I think it will definitely be between UA and CO, with AA in a distant third, and NW in dead last.

Jeremy
 
centrair
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:42 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 34):
Yes we will.

And if NW gets it, what route gets the ax or downgrade to allow the route to happen or does NW have a few spare 744s sitting around someplace?

On a slightly related topic to the NW fleet. (don't feel like it needs its own thread)
How many 747-200s are left?
I counted 7 pax version left active. Is this right?
Where are they currently being used?
How are they being replaced?
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
KaiGywer
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting Mikey711MN (Reply 9):
Actually, I believe G1-G10 are all connected to the customs facility, i.e. the outer walkway is accessible from each of those gates. Certainly G6 is as I've personally seen many a 747 and DC-10 headed for international destinations at that gate.

The difference is, an international departure can leave from anywhere, but only arrive at those few gates because of customs/immigration. I can't remember how far the separate walkway goes, but I think it's only in the separate part of G, housing G1-6. You could regularly see DC10s headed to both AMS and LGW on the F concourse.
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
B2443
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
And if NW gets it, what route gets the ax or downgrade to allow the route to happen or does NW have a few spare 744s sitting around someplace?

They could utilize the current 744 on NRT-PVG and get another 744 from, say NRT-HKG (downgraded to 742 or DC10 or 757 or whatever) to run DTW-PVG nonstop. The current NRT-PVG would be downgraded to a 742, DC10 or 757, NW doesn't want to spend more money on leasing additional 744s.

I don't think equipment would be such a challenging task for NW since they OWN so many classic widebodies.

However, besides some NW insiders, most on a.netters won't believe NW will get it. Does NW know more? Why would it apply for something they are so obviously not going to win? Maybe NW will say, hey, in the past it was CO and AA, and it's my turn?
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
And if NW gets it, what route gets the ax or downgrade to allow the route to happen or does NW have a few spare 744s sitting around someplace?

The plan might be to pick up a few more 744's that are going up for lease/sale.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 38):
How many 747-200s are left?

3 left in pax service, of which two are owned and one is leased.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 37):
You honestly think that NW's going to get DTW-PVG over UA's IAD-PEK, CO's EWR-PVG, or AA's DFW-PVG (or is it PEK)? Not a chance in hell. I think it will definitely be between UA and CO, with AA in a distant third, and NW in dead last.

What makes you so sure that NW wont get it. Using a previous post, many people can connect in DTW from Florida just as easy at ATL. CO's EWR-PVG would simply be just O&D traffic, it is in a bad spot for any connecting traffic. AA's DFW to PVG is just too far south. UA's IAD-PEK i think has the least chance of making, pretty close to AA, why, because as it is, IAD barely supports a flight to Japan, and just because it capital to capital doens't mean anything. Also UA already has a ton of china routes. Remember NW has the longest history and experience in China. I guess we will find out come around December when they make their decision.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:11 am

DC-10's are gone from the fleet in January '07. They will not be a factor if NW gets the China rights to swap aircraft. 742's would be used to replace NRT-HNL and/or LAX-NRT as a stop-gap measure until the 787's arrive to expand the long-haul fleet. Even the additional A330-200's could be used to reallocate 744's in the Pacific.

You can make a point for any of the carrier's operations. All the grandstanding right now is just adding fuel to the fire.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:30 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 33):
Not nearly as many people as use JFK, EWR, or ORD for Asian connections..

DTW is an attractive alternate than dealing with the hassle of connecting in ORD or EWR. And you also have to factor in the fact many regulars choose on the basis of FF programmes. But I guess in your mind, AA, UA and CO are automatically thee number one choice on every route? Gimmie an effing break. Most of our connections off our NRT-DTW flights are heading to the eastern seaboard regardless. So your argument is so weak.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 33):
All of these people can go to LAX or SFO as well.

Oh good god, You're so not thinking logically. If some has the ability to fly NYC, BOS, ou actualy think they're are going to choose to fly 5 hrs to LAX or SFO and then hop a flight for 10hrs to PVG or PEK, rather than hop on a 1hr, 10min flight DTW or MSP to hop the 13 or 12hr flight to PVG or PEK. Good grief.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 33):
ATL could support a number of flights to Asia: KIX, ICN (has service), NRT (has service), PVG, PEK (DL will get this in 2008), and HKG. I think ATL could support more flights than DTW could. The Florida-Asia market is enormous, and ATL is perfectly positioned to handle this traffic. ATL can support flights to almost any big city simply due to massive amounts of connecting passengers, not that it would be profitable, but it could fill up. DL at ATL has 3/4 as many connecting passengers each year as DTW has period. Impressive.

There Asia service hardly compares to DTW and MSP. We fly full, almost full NRT, KIX, and NGO out of DTW and MSP each day, while ATL has what, 1 NRT and 1 ICN out of ATL a day? Please, try that on someone else.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 33):
In a news article in Minneapolis I read that MSP-LGW has a market of about 196 people per day, which is enough to sustain nonstop service

And? what exactly are you saying? You said tha MSP don't have a enough O & D. It appears from your statement that your wrong.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 33):
There isn't a market for MSP-KIX for example.

I just said that.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 33):
Huh? IAD is MUCH busier than DTW internationally and always will be. And how is DTW more able to support DTW-PVG service. That's like comparing MSP and Chicago, not even similar.

I was comparing DTW's overall size and direct feed to IAD, which is minimal. IAD's major draw is it's African immigrant population, along with BWI. IAD is one of the few airports (JFK and EWR being the others) that has African carriers serving it direct and n/s. And with that, BA, LH, AF, KL, and UA also benefit, largely what it's business is. But that's about it.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 33):
There are over 200 daily IAD-PEK O&D passengers, DTW probably has less than 50. Are you comparing D.C. and Detroit as markets? That's insane. D.C. Has some 50 million O&D passengers a year to DTW's 15 million.

OK then, let's see the source of that. 200 a day? I want to see the official feasibility study that verifies that, otherwise, that's nothing but baseless speculating

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 37):
You honestly think that NW's going to get DTW-PVG over UA's IAD-PEK, CO's EWR-PVG, or AA's DFW-PVG (or is it PEK)?

Yes. There will be 2 routes dolled out this year, and one of them will go to NW.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 37):
Not a chance in hell. I think it will definitely be between UA and CO, with AA in a distant third, and NW in dead last.

It matters nothing of what the order they're filed, it matters what the Chinese gov't feels is most beneficial to it's economy, and won't threaten it's own airlines bottom line.

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 35):
Could/would NW come down to this part of the world once they've got their new birds? Another American airline is entitled to Australia and New Zealand (well, two to New Zealand). That would be SkyTeam here via not just KE!

I wish we would, as soon as we get a CEO with some balls.

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 41):
a previous post, many people can connect in DTW from Florida just as easy at ATL.

He's just another armchair CEO. An anti-NW MSP resident.
Made from jets!
 
B2443
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 43):
It matters nothing of what the order they're filed, it matters what the Chinese gov't feels is most beneficial to it's economy, and won't threaten it's own airlines bottom line.

So this is implying the Chinese government would have a say over a DOT decision? That may explain why CO's CEO is touring China right now campaigning for its EWR-PVG application. I didn't believe the Chinese would matter but now it all makes sense.
 
FutureFO
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:39 am

Yet again where is NW going to get the funding for new a/c. Yes they are "posting a profit", but why would a leasing company take a risk on them. If someone does then it is like financing a regular person with bad credit. Thus requiring the bank to ask a higher interest rate on the lease, and the game starts all over with asking for concessions, if they are even in business after the whole issue with the F/A's. Just a thought.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
A388
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RE: NW Aircraft Order Announcement In Next Week Or Two

Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:35 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 6):
So, when the last 787 is retired will the crew be ferried back on a DC-9?

HAHAHA, priceless!!! That sure is a good one Big grin

A388

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