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1337Delta764
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Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:10 am

I have heard in a past thread that Delta has converted the remaining five 777-200ER orders to 777-200LRs. However, at the Boeing website, the orders are still listed as for 777-200ERs with RR engines.

These orders however are through August 2006, and might have been changed more recently. Does anyone have any information on this?
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
jbmitt
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:13 am

Nobody knows anything more. No press release=no information privy to the general public.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:19 am

all will be clear in time.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
gigneil
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:41 am

You know full well that they used to be listed as GE, and have been changed BACK to RR.

N
 
Glom
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:16 am

DL is in Ch11. Can it order anything?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:27 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
DL is in Ch11. Can it order anything?

No, DL can't place an order for new planes, but they are allowed to make changes to existing orders, e.g. converting 772ERs and 738s on order to 772LRs, as will be made official hopefully soon.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:32 am

It will be interesting to see DL's fleet plan.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
okie73
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
DL is in Ch11. Can it order anything?



Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 5):
No, DL can't place an order for new planes,

that is not correct. They would need approval of the judge, but they could in fact place an order for new aircraft.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:01 am

...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.
One Nation Under God
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.

not necessarily true.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
okie73
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.

I didn't say a judge would approve. The point is, he could approve. So it is not impossible for an airline in CH11 to order new aircraft. Unlikely, yes. Impossible, no.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.

If new equipment would bring in greater revenue then flying older equipment, the judge would not be in their right minds if they automatically dismissed it.

It's not just about next month's RoI. It's about next year's and next decade's.

Focusing solely on the "immediate term" is what sent US back into C11 a year after exiting it.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 8):
...which no judge in his/her right mind would approve.

A judge may indeed approve it if it were part of a exit bankruptcy financing plan, similar to what US did with Airbus and the A350. I could see DL ordering 50 787s as part of a financing deal with Boeing which would help DL to exit bankruptcy. This will likely happen, as DL is one of Boeing's biggest customers. It will happen close to a bankruptcy exit though, likely not until early next year.

Jeremy
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:45 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12):
I could see DL ordering 50 787s as part of a financing deal with Boeing which would help DL to exit bankruptcy.

While some will disagree, I think that 25 or 30 out of those 50 787s might be the 787-3. While most Florida airports that Delta sends widebodies to can support the 787-8's wingspan, the main advantage of using the 787-3 over the 787-8 is that it does not have to use Concourse E at ATL. The 787-3's wingspan is capable of using Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL.

The 787s placed on domestic routes, whether it is the 787-3 or the 787-8, will likely have a different seating configuration from the international 787s. There is no point on having BusinessElite seating on domestic routes. If Delta chooses the 787-8 for domestic routes, they could perhaps put them in a somewhat flexible domestic seating configuration that is easily convertible to international config, similar to Delta's 767-400ERs.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
While some will disagree, I think that 25 or 30 out of those 50 787s might be the 787-3. While most Florida airports that Delta sends widebodies to can support the 787-8's wingspan, the main advantage of using the 787-3 over the 787-8 is that it does not have to use Concourse E at ATL. The 787-3's wingspan is capable of using Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL.

will not happen.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):

Damn dude, get over your obsession with the 787-3. Delta's focus is on longhaul flights. Domestic widebody flying is shrinking by the minute. Delta has more important things to spend money on than a range-restricted subfleet.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:43 am

The reason a judge will not approve a new order is because the creditors will not support it.

DL has been very lucky at being able to spend hundreds of millions of dollars in BK to renovate terminals and airplanes and acquire used airplanes but the price tag for a large fleet of new widebody aircraft is much, much higher.

The creditors want DL to be able to emerge from BK successful and diversified but they are not going to let DL continue to spend billions of dollars on new equipment.

The real question is how much DL really needs, not necessarily what it wants. The 777LR will allow DL to begin service to Asia from its east coast strength markets but there isn’t a convincing argument that DL NEEDS those routes. DL is able to order a handful of LRs only because it has outstanding orders with Boeing.

It is far more likely that DL will be able to continue to grow but they will have to settle for used 757s, 767s, and maybe a handful of 777ERs if they can get their hands on them … in addition to a limited number of LRs that have comparable value to what DL had on order.

Aside from the revenue Boeing and GE would like from DL, they are far more likely to allow DL to buy a handful of LRs for delivery in the next couple years and then allow them in the 787 program in the early 2010s as well as having a stake in the new Boeing narrowbody. Remember that never bankrupt AA is taking very few new airplanes over the next few years and UA is taking even fewer. It’s hard to make the case for massive orders for DL particularly since it still has int’l growth capabilities far ahead of its peers by virtue of much less costly 767 conversions. Major Asian growth will have to be done with existing aircraft, used aircraft, or may just have to wait.
 
brilondon
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:10 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 4):
DL is in Ch11. Can it order anything?

Yes, with the creditors approval and and the blessing of the bankruptcy court.

They have to prove that by ordering these planes that they will be able to emerge from bankruptcy in a better position then without them.
Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
 
ultrapig
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:43 am

As to what a Bankruptcy Judge would and would not do-

A Chapter 11 Debtor in Possession (Delta here) can do anything it wants in the "ordinary course" of its business. Thus it can sell tickets to retail customers. It can also order spare parts without court approval since presumable it always orders them. However the Debtors business is not buying and selling planes but flying them. Therefore it cannot buy new planes or make significant changes in existent orders without court approval because its not in the ordinary course of its business.

If the DIP (Delta) wants to do something outside of the ordinary course of business it must file a motion and give notice to all parties int he case.

The normal procedure here would be for the DIP's counsel to contact the main interest groups-Unsecured Creditors Committee-various bondholder groups and committees and the US Trustee and try to get consent to the motion prior to filing or after filing but before a hearing. If there is consent and not other creditor objects the hearing is perfunctory in that Bankruptcy Judges don't generally insert their own business opinion if all the parties are in agreement. If there is not consent or if a smaller creditor objects there is a hearing with evidence. The Court makes a decision based on what's in the best interest of the DIP and Creditors. Some judges may not want to approve a purchase or amendment to a purchase unless it is part of the actual Chapter 11 plan and some may feel otherwise.

While I haven't handled an airline Chapter 11 Case I've been involved in some big cases.

Keep in mind that in a Chapter 11 case a judge is just that- a judge who resolves disputes between various parties if there is no agreement. In 90% of the matters occurring in a Chapter 11 proceeding the parties agree on the facts and agree on the law so there is nothing for a judge to do. Alternatively there may be disagreement as to facts and or law but the parties may negotiate a settlement based on the strenght of their positions.
 
deltajet757
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:12 am

This was recently discussed.
FLY DELTA JETS
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:16 am

DL will have LR's on property in little over a year. The details of this will become clear in the fullness of time.
 
centrair
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 20):
DL will have LR's on property in little over a year. The details of this will become clear in the fullness of time.

From your profile I will take this statement very seriously. Very exciting. Hope they can really use this to build up their operations to Asia and India.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):
Hope they can really use this to build up their operations to Asia

Yes, Asia will see more DL service featuring these new LR's.
 
Max Q
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:45 am

I think the -LR is the 747SP of it's time.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:47 am

I think the LR is the LR of its time.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:01 am

The LR is a niche airplane but it will be able to do some routes that no other airplane can do, esp for DL to Asia from ATL or JFK. There won't be alot of them in the DL fleet but it will allow DL to enter some markets. Remember also that there aren't a lot of these markets that make sense from the east coast anyway. HKG, PVG, BOM are probably about it. It is not clear that the LR would even be able to fly nonstop from JNB w/o weght restrictions so it might not make sense from there.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:38 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 25):
It is not clear that the LR would even be able to fly nonstop from JNB w/o weght restrictions so it might not make sense from there.

Agreed. The LR should be able to handle ATL-JNB w/o restrictions but the JNB-ATL leg might require minor restrictions due to the field elevation at JNB but it's unclear at this time as you said.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:45 am

Given the huge acquisition costs, I am doubtful that DL will try to operate it with a 777LR if they have to take a payload hit. They might as well use a 767 and make a stop and use the LR on something where the LRs range and payload capabilities make sense.

We'll know in less than a year because the first LRs are supposed to arrive at DL in early 2008, IIRC.
 
delawareusa
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:47 am

The 777LR will not be the 747SP of its time. The A340-500 will be the low volume, gas guzzler per seat mile of this time.
 
baw716
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:19 pm

It would not surprise me if DL changes its order to LRs. DL wants to fly some ultra long hauls out of ATL and possibly JFK and to do so, it will need the extra range of the LR. It would not be out of character for DL to make such a change.

After all, DL has the 764, which is a beautiful bird and for the missions that DL uses it, is almost perfect. They are starting to use it on longer hauls, swapping the F cabin for a J cabin. This gives them added flexibility to add capacity to some routes that need it without pulling 777s off the high density, longer haul routes it currently flies.

Seems to me some to be some smart fleet planning.

baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
centrair
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:49 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 22):
Yes, Asia will see more DL service featuring these new LR's.

Now would those flights be increases from JFK or ATL?

I can see JNB, ICN, HKG, and much of India on the radar for use. (Too bad I don't think they will return to NGO..haaaaaaa Sad )
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:55 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 30):
Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 22):
Yes, Asia will see more DL service featuring these new LR's.

Now would those flights be increases from JFK or ATL?

You'll have to wait for a public announcement on the specifics but your postulating is logical.
 
jumbojet
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:11 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 22):
Yes, Asia will see more DL service featuring these new LR's.

New Asia routes is not an automatic for Delta. Doesnt DL need to be awarded these Asian routes by Uncle Sam?
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:13 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):
I think the -LR is the 747SP of it's time.

Orders already state otherwise.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 32):
Doesnt DL need to be awarded these Asian routes by Uncle Sam?

Only China. Most other Asian countries are fair game, providing you are able to get the necessary slots at the restricted airports, e.g. NRT.
 
centrair
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:23 pm

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 32):
New Asia routes is not an automatic for Delta. Doesnt DL need to be awarded these Asian routes by Uncle Sam?

As DAL767400ER said, only china is restricted.
HKG is fair game as it follows slightly different rules from the mainland
DL already serves India so it would just be a craft replacement
DL already has rights to JNB so again craft replacement
ICN would be granted as the DL/KE agreement is strong. The question is could such a service be sustained from ATL (high yield and O&D)? From JFK yes, but an LR would not be need if they did JFK-ICN.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
mush
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:06 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 27):
Given the huge acquisition costs, I am doubtful that DL will try to operate it with a 777LR if they have to take a payload hit. They might as well use a 767 and make a stop and use the LR on something where the LRs range and payload capabilities make sense.

I fully agree with you WorldTraveler, what's the point of ordering an aircraft for a certain route if the aircraft can't make it with a full payload? DL would be better off not buying the 777LR than flying it with restrictions.
It's the same story with QANTAS, why buy a 777LR if it can't make the trip?

Mush
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Centrair (Reply 30):
I can see JNB, ICN, HKG, and much of India on the radar for use.

Close - but still missing a city...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:28 pm

ICN (Seoul) doesn't need an LR from anywhere in the US. KE has flown ATLICN w/ a 772ER. PEK doesn't need an LR either.

PVG and south are where LR starts to have value in east Asia (although an ER could make ATLPVG since there isn't alot of cargo westbound) and to southern Asia, you need an LR to India and to most of the Middle East east of a line through Iraq and Saudia Arabia.

Remember also that DL intends to build up LAX which doesn't require an LR except to BKK and SIN which are not your first choice for new routes. Nor do you build up JFK w/ those destinations. DL has a long way to go to build up Asia from JFK and LAX before they need LRs; ATL requires LRs for more cities. The problem is DL doesn't have ERs available either but that would be a far more cost effective way to grow; the challenge is not buying too many ERs that become obsolete when the 787 and A350 come into service. Although I haven't heard it discussed, DL would benefit by picking up a half dozen or so 772ERs.
 
centrair
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:50 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 37):
ICN (Seoul) doesn't need an LR from anywhere in the US. KE has flown ATLICN w/ a 772ER. PEK doesn't need an LR either.

Brain fart there.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 36):
Close - but still missing a city...

I give up...who/where...SYD from JFK?
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
Rj111
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:42 pm

I find it odd that they want to add a new engine type, and a more expensive aircraft to the fleet (to buy and to operate) in the state they're in at the minute.

Quoting DelawareUSA (Reply 28):
The 777LR will not be the 747SP of its time. The A340-500 will be the low volume, gas guzzler per seat mile of this time.

 Embarrassment  Embarrassment  Embarrassment

Well strictly speaking, an RJ is the low volume high CASM aircraft of it's time by quite a margin over the A345.
 
floridaflyboy
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 14):
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 13):
While some will disagree, I think that 25 or 30 out of those 50 787s might be the 787-3. While most Florida airports that Delta sends widebodies to can support the 787-8's wingspan, the main advantage of using the 787-3 over the 787-8 is that it does not have to use Concourse E at ATL. The 787-3's wingspan is capable of using Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL.

will not happen.

Why not? It might help if you could back up your "will not happen" claims. Do you have any reason for believing this?
Good goes around!
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting Floridaflyboy (Reply 40):
Why not? It might help if you could back up your "will not happen" claims. Do you have any reason for believing this?

The point is that the 787-3 would be more convienient for most domestic ops, with the possible exception of Hawaii. However, some users have claimed that once Delta's 787s are delivered, that they may instead convert some 767-300ERs to domestic configuration instead of ordering the 787-3. The 767-300ER, like the 787-3, in addition to Concourse E, will be able to use Concourse T and Concourse A at ATL. Also, I believe that first few gates in Concourse B (I think it is B1-B4) can also support the 767-300ER.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 41):
However, some users have claimed that once Delta's 787s are delivered, that they may instead convert some 767-300ERs to domestic configuration instead of ordering the 787-3.

Ding. Ding. Ding.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 39):
I find it odd that they want to add a new engine type, and a more expensive aircraft to the fleet (to buy and to operate) in the state they're in at the minute.

International ops are the only bright spots for the domestic US carriers. If the 772LR will allow DL to launch new "monopolized routes" to Asia, South Africa and the Indian subcontinent, it will allow them to command a revenue premium thanks to no real competition. It will also help reinforce their positions at JFK and ATL against B6 and FL since it will generate new connecting traffic and DL can raise the fares on those flights (since B6 and FL can't get you to those destinations). Both will help contribute to improving yields.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Sat Sep 23, 2006 1:40 pm

As ive said before, It is going to be really difficult to expand into Asia for Delta if the use ATL and JFK. They cant really go all out like they did in Europe. I dont think we will see service to HKG (in the forseeable future). I think if I were DL I would focus my attentions on landing the China route in 2008. I would like to see one more Asian route (at least), but (unlike Europe) new Asian routes are going to need to make a lot of sense before they will be successful. For example there would need to be either a really high O&D (which is unlikely from ATL), or there would need to be a significant hub-to-hub passenger exchange, which narrows it down to ICN and maybe TPE. In India, Africa, and the Middle East, I do think Delta can take front stage because they are in a better position (geographicaly) to do so.
It is what it is...
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:08 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 44):
I think if I were DL I would focus my attentions on landing the China route in 2008.

Oh believe me, DL WILL be focusing on that route, but other than making a good route proposal and gathering support, there's not much they can do.





Unless they bribe the DOT of course  Silly .
 
panamair
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:02 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 45):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 44):
I think if I were DL I would focus my attentions on landing the China route in 2008.

Oh believe me, DL WILL be focusing on that route, but other than making a good route proposal and gathering support, there's not much they can do.

Since losing the ATL-PEK bid the first time round, DL has been going to great lengths to drum up support, from setting up a PEK sales office to inviting Ms. China to ATL to having ATL mayor Shirley Franklin visit the PRC to promote Atlanta, etc. IMO, a great deal depends on who gets the 2007 award; if it's CO's EWR-PVG, then DL's ATL-PEK will stand a very good chance in 2008. If it's AA's DFW-PEK, then the going will get tougher for DL....
 
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par13del
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:05 pm

How are American's who live on the east coast travelling to Asia, say from NY and ATL?
We are talking about the possibility of new a/c in the fleet, engines, training and all the other cost. DL presently operates flights from east to west, are non-stops from the east coast to Asia that much more profitable than say using your existing fleet, and operating those east coast flights with a stop on the west coast?
I agree that you have to spend money to make money, but you also have to maximize what you have especially while in and just out of BK. DL's current use of its small 777 fleet to me is testimony in the strength of the a/c.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Par13del (Reply 47):
How are American's who live on the east coast travelling to Asia, say from NY and ATL?

Depends on where they are going. From New York you can get to most major cities in Asia Non stop, so I imagine thats what they do. From ATL, you can only get to NRT and ICN nonstop. So that might mean a connection in one of those cities, or a connection in ORD, LAX, NYC, or SFO. From MIA, I know that LAX gets alot of traffic originating in MIA and going through LAX to Asia. From IAD, you have the same scenario as ATL. Other cities on the east coast tend to make North American Connections to get to Asia (mostly through LAX, SFO, and ORD).
It is what it is...
 
Zone1
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RE: Delta 777-200LR Order

Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 36):

Close - but still missing a city...

If they are going to get the LR, they might as well send it over to SYD. They would be able to get most SkyTeam traffic in the Americas and would be the only airline serving SYD from the east coast. QF doesn't seem to be biting anytime soon. And if they do ATL-SYD, they would be able to do hundreds of cities one stop where it takes 2+ to fly with SkyTeam currently.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 44):
I dont think we will see service to HKG (in the forseeable future). I think if I were DL I would focus my attentions on landing the China route in 2008.

HKG is probably in the top 3 cities that they would want to add service to in Asia. China routes don't guarantee oodles of cash, just ask CO. I really think they should serve HKG before mainland. Although China is growing by leaps and bounds, HKG is still the business capital of China.
/// U N I T E D