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1337Delta764
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AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:23 am

All three airlines are considered likely customers for the 787, although there is the possibility that United will order the A350 instead. Delta has confirmed interest in the 777-200LR. In the future, United may be looking for a 747-400 replacement, and could order the 747-8I or the A380 (unlikely).

AA has been a strong Rolls-Royce customer since they got the 757. This relationship has lived on with their 777-200ER order. While AA's 767 fleet is mostly GE-powered, very few airlines have actually purchased RR-powered 767s. I don't see AA purchasing the 777-200LR, so I think RR has the edge for AA's 787 engine selection if they order it.

Delta, with confirmed interest in the 777-200LR, could lean towards GE for the 787, due to the fact that the 777-200LR isn't offered with other engine options. Most of Delta's newer 767-300ER fleet and all of the 767-400ERs use GE engines. However, Delta's 777-200ERs use RR engines, which could give RR a slight chance for the 787, although most likely Delta will go with GE engines.

United is a long time P&W customer. However, most of the new aircraft made by Boeing and Airbus are not available with P&W engines. If United orders the A380, which is IMO unlikely, Engine Alliance will probably be their engine choice. For the 787, that is a tough call. GE hasn't confirmed an engine for the A350XWB as of yet. If United orders the 747-8I, which is offered with GE engines only, GE will be the more likely choice for their potential 787 order.

What are your thoughts on this?
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United_fan
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:29 am

I heard that UA swore off GE's after the SUX DC-10 crash.
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commavia
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:48 am

I definitely agree that AA is a likely RR customer for the 787s once it orders them. AA and RR have a very good, long-standing relationship -- these two companies like each other, and AA likes RR engines. AA and RR even have a technical partnership through a 50/50 jointly-owned subsidiary called TAESL (Texas Aero Engines Services, Ltd.), the only (IINM) RR Trent 800 overhaul shop in North America at AA's AFW (Fort Worth, Texas) maintenance base.
 
tinpusher007
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
lthough there is the possibility that United will order the A350 instead.

Since when?
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kappel
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):

I actually think that for United both the 748 and a380 are unlikely. The 748 is creeping towards the a380 in pax capacity if they decide to stretch it to the same length as the a380, so if they order a 744 replacement in that category it could be both I guess. So for the 787 it could go both ways, but have they ever operated RR engines? I can't recall them ever having those.
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dl757md
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 4):
So for the 787 it could go both ways, but have they ever operated RR engines? I can't recall them ever having those.

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cf6ppe
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:11 am

What about the twenty SE 210 Sud Caravelle VI-R equipment that UAL operated in the '60s complete with R-R Avon powerplants..??
 
tsaord
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:33 am

Which engines does UA and AA use on their T7's? Watching them at ORD their engines give both carriers T7's a destinctive look.
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1337Delta764
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 4):
So for the 787 it could go both ways, but have they ever operated RR engines?

Well, United does operate A320 series aircraft with IAE V2500 engines, although P&W is also a member of IAE.
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dl757md
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 7):
Which engines does UA and AA use on their T7's?

UA=PW
AA=RR
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akizidy214
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:00 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 2):
I definitely agree that AA is a likely RR customer for the 787s once it orders them.

 checkmark   checkmark  You can make that a definite RR customer.
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Alitalia744
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:19 pm

AA: RR
DL: GE
UA: Anybody's guess...
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:04 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
very few airlines have actually purchased RR-powered 767s

Exactly two.

Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 10):
You can make that a definite RR customer.

Mmmm. Nothing's "definite". I remember reading that Emirates would "definitely" order RR Trents for their A380s and that Lufthansa would "definitely" go for Engine Alliance...

Who'd have predicted RR for Northwest's 787s? Or LOT's?

And I wasn't alone in being very confident that China Eastern would take RR for their 787s. (Wrong...)

Yes, RR must be in a strong position for an AA 787 order but GE have been AA's favoured supplier for a lot longer than RR have been on board. Could go either way, I'd say.

As for Delta and United, I'd say that Delta is drifting more and more towards GE. I'd be surprised to see them choose RR for any 787s. United, however, could easily choose RR and, as has been speculated, might even be a customer for the A350. United's 777-200ERs are between 10 and 4 years old and their -200s are between 12 and 6 years old. It may not be too soon for them to start thinking of replacements. With no 777-300ERs or, apparently, any immediate plans to acquire them, the A350 family could be a good option for UA and the time scale could work too.

787-3s for 767 and 772 replacements but A350s for 772ER and 744 replacements?

And RR for all of them???!  Smile
 
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AA777223
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:15 pm

I thought about this alot. I am curious about the AA order, to be honest. Everyone acts like AA's order of Trents on the 777s was a no brainer, but I question this. The engines have certainly proven to be reliable and serve AA well. They do, however, have GE powered A300s, 767s, and 738s. They also recently had DC-10s, MD-11s. I assume the old fokkers, which didn't seem to be in the fleet long, were pratt or some small manufacturers power plants. There is finally the wildcard, but very prevalent pratts on the 350 some-odd Mad dogs, and former 727s. I think that AA's old 747s were pratts also.

Essentially, I am just saying I don't think I would write off the GEnx, yet. While AA seems very pleased with their Trent T7s and RB211 757s (as am I, as both deliver exhilarating take off performance), they have certainly had their share of reliable performance from their GE engines. I think we could see either power plant on their 787s, and will really see which has the most appealing economics.
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 13):
I assume the old fokkers, which didn't seem to be in the fleet long, were pratt or some small manufacturers power plants.

You need to do a bit more research. Every Fokker jet (F.28, F.70 and F.100) had RR engines.

So, for a while, AA had RR on F.100s, 757s and 777s but GE on the 767s, A330s and the MD-11s that were replaced with 777s. I think in purely numerical terms, AA was (still is?) the biggest operator of RR engines.
 
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting PM (Reply 14):
You need to do a bit more research. Every Fokker jet (F.28, F.70 and F.100) had RR engines.

So, for a while, AA had RR on F.100s, 757s and 777s but GE on the 767s, A330s and the MD-11s that were replaced with 777s. I think in purely numerical terms, AA was (still is?) the biggest operator of RR engines.

First of all, I know that AA retired several of the aircraft types I mentioned, I was simply using them as an example of the engine manufacturers AA had purchased from in the past. Second of all AA never had A330s. Third of all, I openly admitted I didn't know what type of engines the fokkers had. Forth of all I think that BA gets the award for being the biggest RR engine operator. Considering AA only has 46 Rolls powered 777s and and about 130 RB-211 757s, I think there are other airlines with who have them outnumbered.

Perhaps it is you who needs to do more research.
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting PM (Reply 12):
Mmmm. Nothing's "definite". I remember reading that Emirates would "definitely" order RR Trents for their A380s

Your right nothing is ever definite. But AA has a lot of time and money invested in RR. And Emirates doesn't have a facility capable of doing this. http://www.taesl.com/ So I believe RR will be the engine of choice.
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 5):

Sure did!

oh buddy...that airplane makes my heart beat hard...hence the screen name!

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kappel
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 5):
Sure did!

Ahhh, forgot about those. Well, seeing that NW was also a long time PW customer (except the DC10-30) and they went for RR, anything can happen I guess. After BA choosing GE for the initial 772's every engine choice is wide open...
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:43 am

British Airways and GE had a multi-pronged deal for the first about 30 777 over 10 years ago. GE purchased at a very high price BA engine overhaul base in Wales. GE thought they were going to get the BA 744 engine contract and were bitter they didn't in 1987. GE was determined to win the BA 777 order, even if they had to put them on the palnes for free. That was one of the main reasons BA ordered GE 777, many other airlines like ANA in Japan were going to order RR for their 777 but didn't thinking BA must know something they didn't. ANA has Pratt 777, but they are getting RR 787's.
 
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:37 am

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 15):
Perhaps it is you who needs to do more research.

Hey, take it easy. My "A330" was a typo. Sorry. As I'm sure you knew, I meant A300.

Nor was I trying to atack you but I was just surpised that anyne here wouldn't know what engines Fokker jets have or take a few seconds to look it up.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 15):
AA only has 46 Rolls powered 777s and and about 130 RB-211 757s

"Only"?! That adds up to 176 RR-powered aeroplanes (though I think some of your 130 757s may be PW-powered). When they had 75 Fokker 100s that would take the total well above 200.

BA have barely 100 RR-powered aircraft. At the most, they might have had all of these at the same time (though I think they didn't) and that's 151.

16 x 777
28 x 767
50 x 757
57 x 747-400

But their 757 fleet is now much depleted and some of their 767s are leased out. Any way you cut it, AA have more now and certainly had more when they had the Fokker fleet.

But this isn't an arm-wrestling match. Relax!  Smile
 
commavia
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting PM (Reply 12):
Yes, RR must be in a strong position for an AA 787 order but GE have been AA's favoured supplier for a lot longer than RR have been on board.

AA has never had a "preferred supplier" for engines, and it certainly was never GE. One needs only look at AA's fleet and engine mix to see that.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 13):
Everyone acts like AA's order of Trents on the 777s was a no brainer, but I question this. The engines have certainly proven to be reliable and serve AA well. They do, however, have GE powered A300s, 767s, and 738s. They also recently had DC-10s, MD-11s.

AA is happy with Rolls. Comparing that with 737s is a bit unfair, as the 737s were never offered with anything other than the CFM engines, same with the A300s, DC10s and MD11s that were never offered with RR engines.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 13):
There is finally the wildcard, but very prevalent pratts on the 350 some-odd Mad dogs, and former 727s.

Again, the MD80s only came with Pratts. That was the only engine supplier. It was either Pratts or no MD80s ... not much of a sales pitch for Pratt.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 13):
Essentially, I am just saying I don't think I would write off the GEnx, yet. While AA seems very pleased with their Trent T7s and RB211 757s (as am I, as both deliver exhilarating take off performance), they have certainly had their share of reliable performance from their GE engines.

Nobody is writing GE off. But still, it helps RR a lot that they and AA have a jointly owned engine overhaul company, the only in North America, for the Trents and the two companies work very closely together in this regard.
 
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
AA has never had a "preferred supplier" for engines, and it certainly was never GE. One needs only look at AA's fleet and engine mix to see that.

Like what? As you say, several types past and present come with only one engine so let's leave them out. But up until the 777, GE looks pretty much like a 'preferred' supplier to me.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
A300s, DC10s and MD11s that were never offered with RR engines.

But they were offered with PW.

AA chose GE on DC-10s, A300s, 767s and MD-11s when there was a PW option on all four. The last PW order for widebodies was April 1969 - not far off forty years ago. From 1969 to 1996 (a 27 year period) every widebody AA ordered had GE. I may be jumping to conclusions but for more than a quarter of a century (i.e. half the total time AA have been buying jets) there does seem to be the suggestion of a preference for GE...  Wink
 
commavia
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 22):
But up until the 777, GE looks pretty much like a 'preferred' supplier to me.

How?

AA has ordered hundreds of planes with different engines from every single one of the manufacturers -- GE, Rolls and Pratt. AA has literally flown or is currently flying hundreds of planes with each brand of engines.

I really don't see how GE predominates when today, for example, less than one sixth of AA's fleet has GE engines on them.
 
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 20):
"Only"?! That adds up to 176 RR-powered aeroplanes (though I think some of your 130 757s may be PW-powered). When they had 75 Fokker 100s that would take the total well above 200.

First of all, I apologize for the strong verbage in my previous post. I thought you were trying to attack my analysis.
There really are only about 130 RR powered 75s. AA has over 150, some of which ARE pratt powered, but not long for this world in AA colors.

[Edited 2006-09-25 05:17:26]
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MCOflyer
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 12):
Exactly two.

There is a chinese airline who operates a RR powered 767. I saw it in a airways issue from 2004. Something That makes 3. My guess is this:

UA- RR
AA- RR
DL- GE
CO- GE

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MCOflyer
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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:49 pm

You have Qantas, BA, and China Eastern operating RR powered 767's. The China Eastern ones came from China Yunnan. Also these were non er models converted to ER models.

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RE: AA, Delta, And United's Engine Choice

Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:58 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 25):
There is a chinese airline who operates a RR powered 767. I saw it in a airways issue from 2004. Something That makes 3.

No, still 2.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 26):
You have Qantas, BA, and China Eastern operating RR powered 767's. The China Eastern ones came from China Yunnan

Indeed. The Qantas ones are leased from BA. So only two airlines ordered RR 767s. Check the Boeing website.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 24):
First of all, I apologize for the strong verbage in my previous post.

No problem!  Wink

Quoting Commavia (Reply 23):
How? AA has ordered hundreds of planes with different engines from every single one of the manufacturers -- GE, Rolls and Pratt. AA has literally flown or is currently flying hundreds of planes with each brand of engines.

Yes, but the MD-80s and 737s, for example, came with NO CHOICE of engine. Where there was a choice of engine until the 777s in 1996 AA ALWAYS chose GE. That's how!