cle757
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CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:30 pm

Click here to see breaking news headlines
from CrainsCleveland.com


THIS WEEK'S TOP STORIES
Hopkins eyes runway expansion
Officials at Hopkins International Airport are moving forward with a plan to extend one of Hopkins’ two main runways to accommodate more international flights

There is more to the story but I dont have access to CrainsCleveland.com

9/25/2006
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masseybrown
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:09 am

The article emphasizes the need for the runway to support long-range passenger services sometime in the future. Ho-hum, all heard before....

They always forget that the extension is needed for freight right now. Common cargo planes (MD-11, 747) cannot reach Europe at MTOW from the present runways, one of the reasons so much CLE-originated cargo gets trucked to other airports.
 
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mbm3
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 1):
They always forget that the extension is needed for freight right now. Common cargo planes (MD-11, 747) cannot reach Europe at MTOW from the present runways, one of the reasons so much CLE-originated cargo gets trucked to other airports.

Unfortunately cargo is not as sexy and easy to sell to the general public, but it is certainly one of the best reasons to extend our runways. Scheduled widebody passenger service to Europe and Asia would be great, but I just do not see it happening any time soon. Scheduled freight service, however, has been proposed before (IIRC LH wanted to start service) and I think would do well considering the amount of freight that is trucked to other hubs.
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747luvr
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:11 am

CLE (and the city of Cleveland) IMO is not a 'tourist' destination- and given the stagnant economy of several years--i don't see the immediate urge or need to expand there. I dont see lots of tourists and business' rushing there. A longer runway- or much of anything- can save that city.
 
cle757
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 3):
I dont see lots of tourists and business' rushing there. A longer runway- or much of anything- can save that city.

Well lots of people from Cleveland use Continental, I know this for a fact. The flights are full.
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DAYflyer
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 4):
Well lots of people from Cleveland use Continental, I know this for a fact. The flights are full.

There is a significant difference between being a hub, and O&D traffic. He was referring to O & D traffic....of which there aint that much in CLE.

But I do support the runway expansion. CLE does need to remain competitive and CO is adding International flights....
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highflier92660
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:04 am

Thanks MasseyBrown. A "big league" runway at CLE has been in the gestation planning stage for so many decades it has become a case of when I see it, I'll believe it. Now if they build it (11,250') will they (overseas cargo) come?
 
masseybrown
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 6):
Now if they build it (11,250') will they (overseas cargo) come?

I expect you will see charters and one-time schedules first. It takes a while to develop the flow.

Overseas inbound flights can operate now; it only the lift out of CLE that is limited. If you noticed, when the AN-225 came to CLE the flight was a non-stop to CLE but needed a mandatory fuel stop in Delaware to get home.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 7):
CLE but needed a mandatory fuel stop in Delaware to get home.

Not entirely true, its next stop was Stewart AFB, NY for more cargo... never went to DE. I'm sure empty it could make it all the way home even full of fuel, 9000 feet is still alot of runway.
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Falcon84
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 6):
Thanks MasseyBrown. A "big league" runway at CLE has been in the gestation planning stage for so many decades it has become a case of when I see it, I'll believe it. Now if they build it (11,250') will they (overseas cargo) come?

I'm a "I'll believe it when I see it" person, too, when it comes to this airport. But Mr. Smith has been kicking some serious heinie since he got here this summer, and there's no doubt he wants some big things for CLE. I think if he wants the exanded runway, he'll get it.

As for the cargo question, I think it will come. Remember, there was an article in the Cleveland Plain Dealer a few years back talking of how a European carrier wanted to set up cargo ops here in CLE, but ran into such amateurish people that they said "forget it". If the runway goes in, and they run into Mr. Smith's group, they'll be welcomed here.

Plus, I think it possible that CO66 in the summer could go to a 762, which has tons more cargo space than the 752. Right now, if I'm correct, much of the CLE-LGW cargo is shipped via land to EWR, where it goes out on a 777 or a 764.
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masseybrown
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 8):
Not entirely true, its next stop was Stewart AFB, NY for more cargo...

Sorry, wrong AFB - I thought it was Dover.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 4:38 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 10):
Sorry, wrong AFB - I thought it was Dover.

Easy to confuse C-5 bases... and I just realized I'm wrong too, Stewart is an ANGB.  silly 
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cle757
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:13 pm

[quote=DAYflyer,reply=5]There is a significant difference between being a hub, and O&D traffic. He was referring to O & D traffic....of which there aint that much in CLE.

Cle has more O/D traffic then Pit & CVG
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747luvr
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:31 am

Thanks DAYflyer- I should have specifed O & D...you got my back! I used to live in Cleveland- the city, and ALOT of the suburbs are always talk talk talk- little action. If you're going to do- DO IT! If not, then SHUTUP about it. It's too bad to see a once populous city die.
 
joeman
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 13):
I used to live in Cleveland- the city, and ALOT of the suburbs are always talk talk talk- little action. If you're going to do- DO IT! If not, then SHUTUP about it. It's too bad to see a once populous city die.

I don't follow you on suburbs talk vs. runway extensions & metro O&D. Yes, it's too bad about the inner city.
 
747luvr
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:38 am

Joeman- I am referring to the airport mgt-who are talking about extending this runway-and the correlation with the city of Cleveland- AND multiple suburbs- ie, Euclid and others- who are always talking about 'making the city(cities) nicer'- and they have these studies and so on so forth. IIRC the Plain Dealer a few years back mentioned a "50 year Plan" for redeveloping the shoreway- and Burke. Other cities just get it done- Clevelanders are Procrastinators. Thats why they're all a day late and dollar short. Glad I moved out of that area- there is no future in a economically depressed area.
So now do you see the realtions? They'll talk about getting a longer runway till everyone's blue in the face, THEN maybe, extend the thing anyways...
 
chrisjake
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 15):
Glad I moved out of that area

...so are we

signed
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steeler83
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 4):
Well lots of people from Cleveland use Continental, I know this for a fact. The flights are full.



Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 5):
But I do support the runway expansion. CLE does need to remain competitive and CO is adding International flights....

Damn, I was going to say the same thing!

Quoting Highflier92660 (Reply 6):
Now if they build it (11,250') will they (overseas cargo) come?

Hmmm... PIT has an 11,500 foot 10R/28L runway, and I don't think they have any int'l cargo... They are expanding the facilities like there is no tomorrow, but are any cargo carriers rushing to any committment to PIT? None that I can think of... I am an optimist, not a neysayer, but I am just mentioning something else that is rather similar in situation... I am optimistic for PIT though, and I am sure that CLE service will come in time as well...
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atlaaron
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:24 am

Don't need a runway extension for all the RJ service CLE continually seems to get more and more of.  Smile
 
cle757
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:47 am

Quoting ATLAaron (Reply 18):
Don't need a runway extension for all the RJ service CLE continually seems to get more and more of.

Didnt you hear that CO announced CLE-CDG?...more good things to come for CLE!
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CentPIT
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting CLE757 (Reply 19):
Didnt you hear that CO announced CLE-CDG?...more good things to come for CLE!

How long is the runway now? If my memory serves me right, CLE only has two runways going at any given time correct? Or is it one?
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N1120A
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 20):
How long is the runway now? If my memory serves me right, CLE only has two runways going at any given time correct? Or is it one?

CLE has 4 runways, the longest is 9000', next is 8999', next is 7096' and the shortest is 6017'. The three longest are all paralell to each other.
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N766UA
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
CLE has 4 runways, the longest is 9000', next is 8999', next is 7096' and the shortest is 6017'. The three longest are all paralell to each other.

In reality 24C/6C is used only as a taxiway. Sooner or later it will be decommissioned entirely. Cleveland uses at any given time 3 runways, 24L/6R and 24R/4L are both 9,000 feet, both have precision approaches and simultaneous approaches can be made in cigs over 1500 feet. 28/10 is 6017 feet and is only used in stronger crosswinds, however I've seen them land 10 and 6L while departing 6R more than a few times.
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rampkontroler
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 22):

In reality 24C/6C is used only as a taxiway. Sooner or later it will be decommissioned entirely. Cleveland uses at any given time 3 runways, 24L/6R and 24R/4L are both 9,000 feet, both have precision approaches and simultaneous approaches can be made in cigs over 1500 feet. 28/10 is 6017 feet and is only used in stronger crosswinds, however I've seen them land 10 and 6L while departing 6R more than a few times.

All true. 24C/06C is being maintained as a runway (although used as a taxiway) until such time as the extension is completed. This way, when that one gets shut down for construction we will still have two main runways, although for a time we will lose the simultaneous approach ability.

Landings on 10 and 06L are quite common when the weather is good...it really ups the arrival rate as well.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:31 am

Wow I just realized I said 24R/4L... better mention that before I get blasted.  silly 

Kinda fun watching the 753s landing on 10/28... random observation.
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N1120A
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 22):
24L/6R and 24R/4L are both 9,000 feet

One is 8999 feet, not really a difference but worth noting.
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Falcon84
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting Rampkontroler (Reply 23):
Landings on 10 and 06L are quite common when the weather is good...it really ups the arrival rate as well.

Yeah-especially if we have an ATC controller who isn't afraid to do that, and land them simeltaneously. When we get the 'fraidy cats up there, we go nuts, right man?  Big grin
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joeman
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:08 am

747LUVR, as a CLE resident, I do agree with you about the all talk and no action plans: poor leadership and politics usually to blame. The grand plans that never happen are as disappointing as the Browns. The region as a whole isn't on an upward boom, slightly less than status quo for real, but I guess I'm lucky to have job security, as the vast majority do even if changes are involved, and be living in a beautiful area with huge homes being built.

Last week's Crain's article has an optimistic possibility for the runway extension to be completed as early as 2008, doubt it, but new CLE Director Ricky Smith certainly has his focus in the right direction it seems. Hopefully, his visions for improvement aren't squelched. In the past, (prior Mok) there even seemed to be a lack of vision, until politcal characters started making some progress under a cloud of crony "footsie". How dumb. Show people results, even just progress, and you're a winner in any game.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 25):
One is 8999 feet, not really a difference but worth noting.

That's 9,000 feet in my book. Next time they re-paint the end lines they can add 12 inches and make it official.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 26):
When we get the 'fraidy cats up there, we go nuts, right man?

You mean 9 out of 10 of them? I swear every day I'll sit and watch an ERJ land and the 737 holding short has to wait till the ERJ is practically at his gate before he gets crossing clearance. We could up the arrival/departure rate dramatically if we had a controller from, say, DCA in there. Now those guys are good.
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tys777
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:35 pm

Here is my question.

How in the world does TOL have a longer runway (10600) Than CLE?

I know TOL has a fairly large cargo service and gets 747-400's on a regular basis but I would like to think that CLE would be the airport to have the longer runway.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:41 pm

Quoting Tys777 (Reply 29):
How in the world does TOL have a longer runway (10600) Than CLE?

Because they built one, CLE didn't. Remember CLE, until recently, hasn't had any room to expand.
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joeman
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Sun Oct 01, 2006 1:11 am

Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 15):
IIRC the Plain Dealer a few years back mentioned a "50 year Plan" for redeveloping the shoreway- and Burke. Other cities just get it done- Clevelanders are Procrastinators. Thats why they're all a day late and dollar short.

The prospect of competing with other cities where things simply happen as opposed to CLE proposals that go nowhere truly bothers me. Maybe CLE should first study how financing is always available in other cities to just get it done rather than wasting time and cash dreaming up things that don't happen.
 
PITrules
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Sun Oct 01, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 17):
Hmmm... PIT has an 11,500 foot 10R/28L runway, and I don't think they have any int'l cargo... They are expanding the facilities like there is no tomorrow, but are any cargo carriers rushing to any committment to PIT?

Actually PIT hasn't expanded their cargo facilities in about 25 years. There once was a grand plan to build 4 air cargo buildings at the site of the old terminal, but this was shelved due to typical political fighting between Moon twp and Allegheny Co. Moon didn't want the facility. All that was completed was one building. This one building is not capable of accepting cargo aircraft because Moon twp refuses to approve permits to rebuild the decaying ramp area (concrete from the original terminal) in front of the building. That is why you never see cargo aircraft parked there. The whole thing is ridiculous, but expected in Pittsburgh. Moon twp would rather have a decaying open area instead of a new air cargo facility with jobs, because they are concerned about "noise".

There has been earth moving work near the existing cargo area, but this was to excavate dirt to build up and improve the 10L overrun area.

With the dramatic fall in PIT's status as a passenger hub, you would think they would push hard for air cargo, because of PIT's great location half way between the northeast and midwest, excellent airfield, and thousands of acres of undeveloped land. But once again, the airport is a miserable failure in this area.
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CentPIT
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Sun Oct 01, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 32):
With the dramatic fall in PIT's status as a passenger hub, you would think they would push hard for air cargo, because of PIT's great location half way between the northeast and midwest, excellent airfield, and thousands of acres of undeveloped land. But once again, the airport is a miserable failure in this area.

Are you talking about the facility near the AV Center? I never see cargo aircraft there, but I have heard quite a few times (not just on this website, in person as well) that cargo expansion is back in the works at Pittsburgh International?

How many cargo flights are operated out of PIT each day?
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PITrules
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:21 am

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 33):
Are you talking about the facility near the AV Center? I never see cargo aircraft there, but I have heard quite a few times (not just on this website, in person as well) that cargo expansion is back in the works at Pittsburgh International?

Yes, that's the facility. Seems like it's used for trucking only - no aircraft. Original plans for that area were for 4 air cargo buildings capable of handling 13 747s. Moon twp effectively killed those hopes.

Due to Moon's obstruction, the airport authority came up with a plan B, which is putting any future cargo growth to the west of the existing facilities. Problem is, this land was originally reserved for a 4th parallel runway, which would give PIT a similar layout to ATL. I know, PIT does not need that kind of runway capacity, but in 30 - 40 years, who knows - it would be nice to be able to have that option in the master plan. No more, thanks to Moon twp and an impotent airport authority.

Another problem for air cargo in PIT is the airport authority charges too much in landing fees. Any growth in air cargo at PIT would be in the form of transfer traffic (to trucks or other airplanes), as Pittsburgh's economy will not support cargo growth alone. Therefore, PIT's fees need to be about 1/3 lower than Columbus Rickenbacker (to put the airport on the air cargo map), and about 2/3 lower than expensive JFK (to justify the expense of trucking to the NE seaboard). PIT's fees are no where near competitive enough.

Sorry to hijack a CLE thread.
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redngold
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Sun Oct 01, 2006 9:29 am

I love watching them from the 100th Bomb Group when they land on 10. The lucky thing is now that we have a second runway with full ILS/DME capability, which 6C/24C didn't have due to proximity, we can actually function as a two runway airport.

I have yet to see simultaneous ops on 28 and one of the 24s. I assume that they would use 24R since it is farther away from 28.

How many people here actually saw that AN-225? What a behemoth - a warehouse with a wing, on wheels! I waited six hours to watch the thing take off.
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steeler83
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 32):



Quoting PITrules (Reply 32):
With the dramatic fall in PIT's status as a passenger hub, you would think they would push hard for air cargo, because of PIT's great location half way between the northeast and midwest, excellent airfield, and thousands of acres of undeveloped land. But once again, the airport is a miserable failure in this area.

Man, I will tell you what... After reading this post, and the other ones below that regarding any hopes of PIT expansion really... I have a passionate hatred towards Moon TWP as well as ACAA. I wish they'd hire me. They need serious help!!
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flyinryan99
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting Tys777 (Reply 29):
How in the world does TOL have a longer runway (10600) Than CLE?

Mostly because of the 180th wing of the ANG.
 
N766UA
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting Flyinryan99 (Reply 37):
Mostly because of the 180th wing of the ANG.

Vipers don't need 10,000 feet of runway...
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flyinryan99
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:34 am

They're not the Vipers, they're the Stingers  Wink

IIRC back when they extended 7/25 the ANG requested an extension and the port was already wanting to do that so they could attract longer haul South American cargo flights. BAX was also requesting an extension. I think the ANG requested it first, but that was 10 - 15 years ago when it all went down so I don't remember much about it.
 
masseybrown
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:51 pm

Quoting Tys777 (Reply 29):
How in the world does TOL have a longer runway (10600) Than CLE?

Interesting that TOL has only 10600. When the first round of bids for 11250FT for 6R-24L were rejected in July, the city talked about reducing the length of the extension to save money. Maybe 10600 would be enough in CLE for 95% of planned requirements.

I hate to see them make that compromise, though. MTOW is MTOW and you don't get it at 10600 FT.
 
joeman
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 40):
When the first round of bids for 11250FT for 6R-24L were rejected in July, the city talked about reducing the length of the extension to save money.

Bids were rejected due to them far exceeding that which was estimated by the Engineer.

Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 15):
They'll talk about getting a longer runway till everyone's blue in the face, THEN maybe, extend the thing anyways...



Quoting 747LUVR (Reply 15):
Other cities just get it done- Clevelanders are Procrastinators. Thats why they're all a day late and dollar short.

Looks like there's more to it than just getting it done, like in other cities. Even consideration of an alternate plan for a reduced length to save money. That's good management, not automatic ineptness.
 
tys777
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RE: CLE Still Planning Runway Extension

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:56 am

Somehow I forgot about the ANG even though I used to spend some time around their planes back when I lived up near TOL, It's nice having that longer runway, we are able to recieve the Occasional QF 747F

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