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fxramper
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US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:14 am

Four U.S. airlines this week are intensifying a contest to open the next non-stop route to China, the world's hottest growth market.

On Monday, American, Continental, Northwest and United airlines will submit briefs to the US Department of Transportation to boost their bids for the one China route to be approved this year.


Thought this was interesting...

American on Monday will announce it has dozens of members of Congress on its side.

Who do you think will get the route this year? Place your bets!  bouncy 


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2006-09/25/content_695839.htm
 
goCOgo
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting FXramper (Thread starter):
American on Monday will announce it has dozens of members of Congress on its side.

Of course, with over 400 members of congress, each probably has "dozens" of congresspeople on their side.

My odds:
CO: 40%
AA: 40%
UA: 19%
NW: 1%

When will the DOT announce their decision?
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
UAL747
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:11 am

AA should get the DFW-PEK route hands down. It has the least presence in China out of all those carriers.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
zvezda
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 2):
AA should get the DFW-PEK route hands down.

It's not that simple. DFW is not a well-located gateway for service to Asia.
 
UAL747
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:26 am

Have you seen the Chinese population in Dallas? Secondly, DFW and AA could take in flights from as far north as IAD to as far south as MIA to Asia and also could connect Mexican and South American passengers with ease to PEK.

DFW already has 2 daily flights to NRT and one daily flight to ICN all operated by 777's. Secondly, AA could codeshare with MU on this flight as well.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
atnight
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:39 am

Who needs to get it? AA (no service to china)
Who wants to get it? NW (add non-stop service from DTW to China)
Who should get it? UA (direct link between two gov capitals)
Who will get it? CO (money talks, and more important than linking goverments, is linking economies... so NYC area and Shanghai will be the winner, besides being the largest O&D markets of the four options)....
B707 B727 B733/5/7/8/9 B742/4 B752/3 B763/4 B772 A310 A318/319/320 A332 A343 MD80 DC9/10 CRJ200 ERJ145 ERJ-170 Be1900 Da
 
rwsea
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 2):
AA should get the DFW-PEK route hands down. It has the least presence in China out of all those carriers.

That shouldn't mean a thing - IAD and EWR make much more sense to have direct China service than DFW.
 
zvezda
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
DFW and AA could take in flights from as far north as IAD

IAD-PEK is 6921 miles nonstop. It's 249 miles farther via ORD. It's 1221 miles farther via DFW.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
also could connect Mexican and South American passengers with ease to PEK.

That's far-fetched (certainly not easy) as long as the silly requirement is in place that transit passengers need US visas. It would make much more sense to connect at YVR.
 
Falcon84
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Atnight (Reply 5):
Who should get it? UA (direct link between two gov capitals)
Who will get it? CO (money talks, and more important than linking goverments, is linking economies... so NYC area and Shanghai will be the winner, besides being the largest O&D markets of the four options)....

I don't think it's as important to connect the Capitals as it is the business markets. DC isn't the business market that NYC is, and CO's application to PVG will nicely compliment their very successful PEK service.

Having said that, I'm sure every application has it's merits, but not everyone can have it.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
N754PR
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:13 am

anyone confirm Chicago - Hong Kong daily next summer by AA?
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
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STT757
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:25 am

Based on the merits CO has the strongest case, CO offers nonstop service from the US's Business Capital to China's Business capital. CO's service also offers the only nonstop from the East Coast to Shanghai, CO is also a new entrant to the Shanghai market.

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060925/dam055.html?.v=30

Quote:
Continental thanks all parties for their support of the airline's application, including:


The Port Authority of New York & New Jersey
The New Jersey Parties
The Ohio Parties
The entire New Jersey Delegation
12 members of the Northern Ohio delegation
10 members of the Houston/Southeast Texas delegation
New York Governor Pataki
New Jersey Governor Corzine
Lt. Governor of Ohio Johnson
Continental's hub city mayors in New York City, Newark, Cleveland and
Houston
Mayors and airport officials from cities ranging from Amarillo and
Brownsville in Texas, to Shreveport and New Orleans in Louisiana, and to
Fort Lauderdale, Fla. and Madison, Wisc.
The Greater Houston Partnership
Ohio Chamber of Commerce
New Jersey Chamber of Commerce
Gateway Regional Chamber of Commerce
Chamber of Commerce of Southern New Jersey
New Jersey Business and Industry Association
Commerce and Industry Association of New Jersey
New Jersey Alliance for Action
Greater Elizabeth Chamber of Commerce
Manhattan Chamber of Commerce
Partnership for New York City
New York City Economic Development Corp.
China Institute
Asian American Federation of New York
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LAXdude1023
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:26 am

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 1):
My odds:
CO: 40%
AA: 40%
UA: 19%
NW: 1%

Exactly. This is a competition between CO and AA, UA and NW can throw in the towel.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 6):
That shouldn't mean a thing - IAD and EWR make much more sense to have direct China service than DFW.

Depends on opinion. The people who say that IAD and EWR and basing their opinions on O&D traffic and what makes "sense" based on the cities themselves. The people who argue that DFW should get it are basing their arguement on the feed that you can get through DFW. This is similar to the arguement that DL will make in 2008 when they ask for the route. Having a nonstop in Dallas is similar to having it in Atlanta, niether city will fill the plane based on O&D alone, but both cities have the best feeds (with the possible exception of ORD) in the country. The feed in EWR and IAD cant come close to compare with DFW.

[Edited 2006-09-26 02:28:41]
It is what it is...
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
Based on the merits CO has the strongest case, CO offers nonstop service from the US's Business Capital to China's Business capital. CO's service also offers the only nonstop from the East Coast to Shanghai, CO is also a new entrant to the Shanghai market.

The arguement will no longer be valid in December when China Eastern starts the PVG-JFK nonstop service.
It is what it is...
 
Falcon84
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:34 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
The arguement will no longer be valid in December when China Eastern starts the PVG-JFK nonstop service.

It will be valid from the perspective of US flag carriers.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
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STT757
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
The arguement will no longer be valid in December when China Eastern starts the PVG-JFK nonstop service

The US DOT cares about helping US Carriers, not establishing Chinese monopolies on routes.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 11):
Exactly. This is a competition between CO and AA, UA and NW can throw in the towel.

I agree, CO wins because the market for NJ/NY to Shanghai is 5X's the DFW market, NY is the US's largest market and Business Center, Shanghai is China's largest market and Business center.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jacobin777
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting N754PR (Reply 9):
anyone confirm Chicago - Hong Kong daily next summer by AA?

whoo..that would be nice... yes ...
"Up the Irons!"
 
QFSYD744
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
Have you seen the Chinese population in Dallas?

It is nothing compared to New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Boston and others.. In addition the need for a direct link from IAD-PEK is very long overdue.

Quoting Atnight (Reply 5):
Who needs to get it? AA (no service to china)

AA serves ORD-PVG daily with the 772

Quoting Atnight (Reply 5):
Who wants to get it? NW (add non-stop service from DTW to China)

NW serves PEK, PVG daily from NRT

Quoting Atnight (Reply 5):
Who should get it? UA (direct link between two gov capitals)

Yes, this is the most needed link, yet UA already serves ORD-PEK, ORD-PVG, SFO-PEK, SFO-PVG on a daily basis. The flipside is that NYC needs a PVG link as bad as IAD needs a PEK link.
I Still Call Australia Home
 
mattnrsa
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting Atnight (Reply 5):
AA (no service to china)



Quoting UAL747 (Reply 2):
It has the least presence in China out of all those carriers

AA already has 1 flight to PRC, the same as CO. CO flies to HKG while AA doesn't, but AA could add a flight there now if they wanted to.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
I agree, CO wins because the market for NJ/NY to Shanghai is 5X's the DFW market, NY is the US's largest market and Business Center, Shanghai is China's largest market and Business center

That is definately one way of looking at it, but im not convinced that the route is already CO's. AA does have a valid arguement as well, DFW has the capacity to feed more connecting flights than EWR. While I definately think your arguement is very valid and could very well be what gets CO the route, AA has a very valid arguement as well with DFW.

I also know that the DOT is only out for American based carriers, but the arguement that CO would be the ONLY service to the East Coast is not valid after MU starts their route. It can be said that they will be the only American based carrier to serve the route, but being the ONLY carrier to serve the route will no longer be factual.

[Edited 2006-09-26 03:09:47]
It is what it is...
 
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STT757
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
DFW has the capacity to feed more connecting flights than EWR

Since CO will be using the Polar route to PVG from EWR they can easily connect folks from all over the East Coast and Southern States to PVG via EWR.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
QFSYD744
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:18 am

STT757,

Why didnt CO change the filing to IAH-PVG after MU announced intent to serve JFK-PVG? The are rumblings that CO will start IAH-HKG, if EWR-PVG does not become a reality.
I Still Call Australia Home
 
centrair
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:23 am

An odd way to look at this.

NW - Connecting DTW-PVG. Great. Shanghai has many car plant and the Chinese auto industry is growing faster than you can imagine. But...Even the Chinese want cars that are manageble and fuel efficient. GM has not done well outside the US without their foreign relations. The Ford brand can be found in Europe and in some parts of Asia but still has not don as well as say Toyota or BMW for tapping the Chinese market. That leaves the upper midewst and NW's network. Though it is a good network, it is limited to North America. If a Chinese Corporate type is willing to travel to the US they might want to make it really worth their while and go to Argentina, Brazil or Peru...all nations whiche have entered into major trade agreements with the Chinese. That lack of a network South of the boarder could be a point against them. But it does sit in a nice location for people from say Washington, Dallas, and New York to connect at. NW doesn't have non-stop to China but has been serving China longer than any US carrier via NRT and once with non-stop.

UA - Idea of connecting capitals..."United Airlines: An airline dedicated to positive US-China relations"... Feel good routes? Great.... But what does UA have to its advantage here. US supporting them and hoping to benefit from it. Air China and its possible bid to join Star. That means possible feed. What is UA's domestic and South American network like from IAD. Is it enough to get not only O&D, but transit for those doing international business. UA already has non-stop to China and transit via NRT.

CO - Good case. Connect two major economically powerful cities to each other. But there is something more to this than just connecting US-China economies. There has to be good transit for South America which has several rapidly growing economies dependent on Chinese relations. Business folks from South America going to China...Chinese going to South America...Americans trading in both areas. Is it there? (CO has non-stop Service to China)

AA - If we take in the point here of local and global connections that would be for the benefit of many, then DFW-China is in a great position. China is looking for greater access to South America and has been putting tons of money into the continent. The transit potential is the big point here. Not only does it help Texas and Dallas economies, it gets feed from the south (US and South America) and even the east. Now if DFW were to have more South American connections, it would be even sweeter. This would be a benefit not only to AA but to many companies, communities and nations. AA has non-stop service to China.

So...who is missing here. Oh yes DL. I wonder if they would put their vote behind CO or NW? The Skyteam Brotherhood. Hey NW can we codeshare? You bring them from China and we can take them South. Hey CO, can we codeshare? You bring them from China and we take them South. But wait... "We would love to serve China too... from ATL. Crap lack of aircraft. Ah good thing we are close with China Southern out of LAX."

Whoever DOT gives the route to will have to be not only the best for America, but the best for making multinational business connections for the benefit of all involved. Oh and we need another US-China agreement because there is no way that Chinese carriers, US carriers and Japanese carriers can all pick up the estimated demand for China. China will need to grant more access to US carriers and the US will have to offer more to the Chinese. There are 5 more Chinese cities that will be open for non-stop service from abroad, some are getting service from Europe now. The US needs to get another agreement so that service can open to those locations as well.

The previous statement was a different perspective on the China Route debate based on opinion written over 2 hours with a class in the middle.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
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STT757
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:24 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 20):
Why didnt CO change the filing to IAH-PVG after MU announced intent to serve JFK-PVG?

The DOT does not care about foreign carriers, they only are concerned about what's best for the US industry. I do not see how allowing a Chinese carrier to have a monopoly on service from the US East Coast to Shanghai benefits anyone but the Chinese carrier.

There was existing service between Beijing and JFK when CO applied for EWR-PEK, however it was a Chinese carrier.

CO will launch sevice from Houston to China, however they will wait for China to open up more after 2009 and for their 787s to arrive.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
UALMMFlyer
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:25 am

Although it is not covered in this application, I am puzzled why no US carrier is considering starting LAX-China flights. I know MU, CZ, CA all have flights into LAX, but why no US carriers?

Who is consider the dominant carrier at LAX? May be that's the issue... there is no clear dominant carrier at LAX....
Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
 
daron4000
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
DFW has the capacity to feed more connecting flights than EWR

Since CO will be using the Polar route to PVG from EWR they can easily connect folks from all over the East Coast and Southern States to PVG via EWR.

I fail to understand how this will let CO pick up more connecting pax. I think that this is a very close race between the 3 carriers for numerous reasons stated above.
 
goCOgo
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:33 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 10):
The Ohio Parties
...
12 members of the Northern Ohio delegation
...
Lt. Governor of Ohio Johnson
Continental's hub city mayors in New York City, Newark, Cleveland and
Houston
...
Ohio Chamber of Commerce

Gee, I guess starting the route in CLE (albeit with a plane change) was in fact enough to garner the Ohio political support.

While I'm routing for CO, they are hurt not only by the China Eastern service (but probably not too bad as the service isn't US flag and won't be daily), but perhaps more their recent vocal opposition to Virgin America, relaxed foreign ownership, and the Open Skies negotiations (in regards to getting free viable slots with LHR access). They probably have burned a few bridges with DOT. The fact that AA has none of there problems puts them even with CO.
"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
 
QFSYD744
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):
But it does sit in a nice location for people from say Washington, Dallas, and New York to connect at.

Washington D.C. can connect on UA, KE, NH, AA, and CO without a probem.
Dallas. DFW can connect on AA, KE, UA, and CO without a problem.
New York can be routed nonstop on CO, CA.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):
That lack of a network South of the boarder could be a point against them.

It has been a sore point for the Northwest Airlines network. The same way that MSP/DTW cannot attract North-South traffic on either coast.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):
If a Chinese Corporate type is willing to travel to the US they might want to make it really worth their while and go to Argentina, Brazil or Peru...all nations whiche have entered into major trade agreements with the Chinese.

All nations that NWA does not intend on serving. As a NWA reservations agent said once in the late 1990's We dont have any desire to fly down there!

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):
Great.... But what does UA have to its advantage here.

Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, and Buenos Aires

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 23):
I know MU, CZ, CA all have flights into LAX, but why no US carriers?

Give American Airlines time, they will go for it!
I Still Call Australia Home
 
Cessna057
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:38 am

I'm going to have to go with CO simply because NW is in a terrible position, and DFW is not a good gateway to China. I think that the only two competators are CO and UA.
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
 
AirCop
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 2):
AA should get the DFW-PEK route handsrndown.rnIt has the least presence in China out of all those carriers.rn

And that's a reason? With AA failure to establish a strong presence on the west coast, and the pacific why would award this prize into an airline that can't or won't compete.
 
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OA412
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 18):
I also know that the DOT is only out for American based carriers, but the arguement that CO would be the ONLY service to the East Coast is not valid after MU starts their route. It can be said that they will be the only American based carrier to serve the route, but being the ONLY carrier to serve the route will no longer be factual.

Maybe not, but keep in mind that MU's service will only be 4x weekly while CO is proposing daily service which, in the grand scheme of things, is in the public's best interest. Yes, CO will not be the only carrier on the route but it will establish a US carrier on the route preventing a Chinese monopoly and offer travelers a better option with daily service versus a less than daily being offered by MU. Besides, given the size of the market, there is more than enough room on this route for 2 carriers.

Anyway, I am with those who believe that CO should/will win this authority. While AA's proposal does indeed open a new gateway to China which the DOT has been keen to reward in the past, the benefits of a EWR-PVG flight (i.e. largest US-China market not served non-stop by a US carrier) far outweigh the perceived benefit of opening up DFW as a new non-stop market to China.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 23):
Who is consider the dominant carrier at LAX?

Plainly put there isnt one. LAX is an airport dominated by foreign airlines. Thats why UA is much bigger at SFO. Not nearly the competition.

Quoting Centrair (Reply 21):
So...who is missing here. Oh yes DL. I wonder if they would put their vote behind CO or NW? The Skyteam Brotherhood. Hey NW can we codeshare? You bring them from China and we can take them South. Hey CO, can we codeshare? You bring them from China and we take them South. But wait... "We would love to serve China too... from ATL. Crap lack of aircraft. Ah good thing we are close with China Southern out of LAX."

There is another reason too. If AA get the route to China, DL's chances to getting the route in 2008 go way down because their arguement for needing the route wont be as convenicing. Most of the market that can be served from ATL can also be served from DFW.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 19):
Since CO will be using the Polar route to PVG from EWR they can easily connect folks from all over the East Coast and Southern States to PVG via EWR.

Yes, but with the exception of the Northeast you can do that from DFW as well. DFW also has great connection oprotunites for Latin America, just as good if not better than EWR.
It is what it is...
 
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STT757
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting Daron4000 (Reply 24):
I fail to understand how this will let CO pick up more connecting pax

It's a shorter flight via EWR over the Poles to China from the Southeast US than to go via DFW.

Quoting GoCOgo (Reply 25):
The fact that AA has none of there problems puts them even with CO.

AA's biggest problem is that they have not shown the comitment to Asia that CO has, AA has added and dropped KIX twice, SJC-NRT, SEA-NRT, JFK-NRT (then added again), ORD-Nagoya etc.

CO has stuck with their Asian routes, something the DOT no doubt can appreciate.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
steeler83
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 3):
It's not that simple. DFW is not a well-located gateway for service to Asia.

Someone may have already posted this, but the gateways to Asia are JFK/EWR, ORD, DTW, LAX, SFO and SEA... All of those stations are a CO, AA, UA, or NW base, or a combination of a couple (ORD - AA and UA)

PHL could be a gateway, but US is in no hurry to go to China just yet, and this thread does not even regard US...

If I were to make a bet at who gets it, I would have to toss it up between AA and UA... AA is the largest carrier, and UA already has a massive presence in Asia... Next I would say CO because of its build up of EWR, and it's trying to expand its service to Asia. EWR is the place to do this from.

NW is last, need I explain? I think we all know why NW would be last...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
CHIFLYGUY
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 31):

AA's biggest problem is that they have not shown the comitment to Asia that CO has, AA has added and dropped KIX twice, SJC-NRT, SEA-NRT, JFK-NRT (then added again), ORD-Nagoya etc.

CO has stuck with their Asian routes, something the DOT no doubt can appreciate.

AA serves NRT 5x, PVG, and DEL. AA has LAX, DFW, ORD, and JFK as Asia gateways.

Apart from Air Mike, CO has NRT 2x, HKG, PEK, and DEL. CO has EWR and IAH as Asian gateways.

Who is more committed to Asia? AA has more flights from more cities. Yes, they've smartly discontinued routes that don't make money, all either to/from secondary cities - cities that CO has not even bothered to try serving from the continental US.
 
Cessna057
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 32):
PHL could be a gateway, but US is in no hurry to go to China just yet

Don't mean to elaborate on the subject, but does US even have a plane that could make and flight to Asia?
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
 
steeler83
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 34):
Don't mean to elaborate on the subject, but does US even have a plane that could make and flight to Asia?

No they do not, at least not yet - with their order for A350. Still, I guess a moot point to bring up, or just a bad one...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
UALMMFlyer
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:42 am

If NW can use A330 to fly to Asia, then why not US apply for next year's China right using its current fleet of A330 or lease new A330 with minimum training and configuration?
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Cessna057
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:46 am

Quoting UALMMFlyer (Reply 36):
If NW can use A330 to fly to Asia, then why not US apply for next year's China right using its current fleet of A330 or lease new A330 with minimum training and configuration?

I was under the impression that NW used it's 330's for inter-Asia flight rather than flights there and back. COrrect me if I am wrong.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:56 am

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 37):
I was under the impression that NW used it's 330's for inter-Asia flight rather than flights there and back. COrrect me if I am wrong.

NW uses the 330 for routes to NRT from SFO, PDX, and SEA. LAX, MSP, and DTW use the 747.
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QFSYD744
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 37):
I was under the impression that NW used it's 330's for inter-Asia flight rather than flights there and back. COrrect me if I am wrong.

PDX-NRT, SEA-NRT, SFO-NRT, SEA-AMS, MSP-AMS, MSP-LGW, DTW-AMS, DTW-CDG, DTW-FRA, DTW-LGW, MEM-AMS, BOS-AMS, AMS-BOM, MSP-HNL are now long-haul A332/A333 routes in addition to those within Asia.
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Cessna057
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 38):
NW uses the 330 for routes to NRT from SFO, PDX, and SEA. LAX, MSP, and DTW use the 747.

So why can't US fly from PHX to NRT using their 330s?
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QFSYD744
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 40):
So why can't US fly from PHX to NRT using their 330s?

They do not have -200ER versions, of which NWA is more than happy with.
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LAXdude1023
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 40):
So why can't US fly from PHX to NRT using their 330s?

They can its just a matter if they will. Its a definate possibility for the distant future.
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rwsea
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 1:22 pm

US only operates the 333, which has less range than the 332's used by NW. In fact, NW has used 333's on the SEA-NRT route, and they struggle compared to the 332. PHX or PHL are both much longer routes.
 
Pbb152
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:24 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 31):


AA's biggest problem is that they have not shown the comitment to Asia that CO has, AA has added and dropped KIX twice, SJC-NRT, SEA-NRT, JFK-NRT (then added again), ORD-Nagoya etc.

CO has stuck with their Asian routes, something the DOT no doubt can appreciate.

[quote=CHIFLYGUY,reply=33]
AA serves NRT 5x, PVG, and DEL. AA has LAX, DFW, ORD, and JFK as Asia gateways.

Apart from Air Mike, CO has NRT 2x, HKG, PEK, and DEL. CO has EWR and IAH as Asian gateways.

Who is more committed to Asia? AA has more flights from more cities. Yes, they've smartly discontinued routes that don't make money, all either to/from secondary cities - cities that CO has not even bothered to try serving from the continental US.

The quote by CHIFLYGUY is being looked at from an obvious pro-AA standpoint. I think STT757 called it correctly in stating that AA has a history of starting and then discontinuing routes to Asia. Saying that they are "smartly" discontinuing them is kind of dense. Maybe they did not do their homework in the first place. This has to be an issue that the DOT takes into consideration. And to say that AA is more committed to Asia is just silly. But whatever makes you sleep better at night.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting Pbb152 (Reply 44):
The quote by CHIFLYGUY is being looked at from an obvious pro-AA standpoint. I think STT757 called it correctly in stating that AA has a history of starting and then discontinuing routes to Asia. Saying that they are "smartly" discontinuing them is kind of dense. Maybe they did not do their homework in the first place. This has to be an issue that the DOT takes into consideration. And to say that AA is more committed to Asia is just silly. But whatever makes you sleep better at night.

Everyone has a bias. I wouldnt say that CHIFLYGUY's comments came through biased toward AA any more than Pbb152 and STT757's comments were biased toward CO. I would say AA has taken more chances with Asia than CO. I would say that AA is committed to finding a new route from DFW that will work. I do believe that DFW can support another route to Asia. CO does go with what works from EWR but they havent exactly tried as hard as AA to find new routes to Asia that work. But CO does enjoy lots of success on their Asian routes. I do have faith as well that EWR-PVG can be a highly successful route. Only time will tell who gets it and if that route will be successful.
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jacobin777
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:00 pm

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 37):

I was under the impression that NW used it's 330's for inter-Asia flight rather than flights there and back. COrrect me if I am wrong.

Here is NW @ SFO to NRT... biggrin 


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Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 40):
So why can't US fly from PHX to NRT using their 330s?

Possibly because of the "hot and high" conditions of PHX....

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fxramper
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:01 pm

The DOT will take their sweet time in awarding the authority.

I'm not bias, but I like AA odds. CO is a close second.

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Amazonphil
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:19 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 46):
Possibly because of the "hot and high" conditions of PHX....

Hot, yes but only mid June to mid Sept and not necessarily high. Only 1120ft MSL at PHX. Only in the dead of summer with temps to 105 and above would D/A present a problem. Rest of the year, D/A isn't a question.

Regards
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UALMMFlyer
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RE: US Carriers Race To Fly To China!

Tue Sep 26, 2006 5:51 pm

I know I am jumping the gun, but looking at the 2008 China right (to be awarded in 2007), which will go to an airlines without China service.... it will be an interesting battle between DL and US. In addition, AS may decide to jump into the mix. Many already think DL will win by default; however, with US in better financial health, and ability to lease A332 in the market place. I'd love to see US applying for it. The question is ATL is hard to beat, and US needs to come up with a good city-pair for the application. US can manage cost with sharing of maintenance and sales with UA and CA at both ends.
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