flyingnanook
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Why No Props At ORD?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:16 pm

Hi all,

I was just thinking of the many times I've transitted ORD on my way to or from OSH and the various planes that flew that route. Then I realized that, after scheduled service ended to OSH and I had to fly RJ's to ATW, I haven't seen any props at ORD when transitting there. Why are there no more prop planes flying to ORD? It can't be just because of size because Q400's are larger than CRJ200's, but the CRJ's are flying there while the Dash8's are not.

So can anybody help me figure out why all the props have left ORD?
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:41 pm

Quite honestly I think the slot control at ORD makes props impractical. How many smaller and older model CRJ-100/200s (50 seaters) do you see at ORD? If airlines are smart, they are also a minority and will become scarce there as well.
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ktachiya
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Quite honestly I think the slot control at ORD makes props impractical

Hmm..... well I don't know about the numbers of rwys at ORD but I would presume because it is because its approach speed is slower than jets. On the other hand, it can cause problems when taxiing. I've seen this many times at YVR. I know that NRT does props, but thats limited to only a few flights per day. I think it can affect the final approach course of other jets. Just my guess
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airfinair
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:02 pm

You could trace the end of the props at ORD to the crash of American Eagle 4184 in 1994, due to icing on that particular ATR-72. After this crash, AMR stopped using the props in the northern cities, both for safety reasons and for public relations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Eagle_Flight_4184

I would even go so far as to say that this event started the widespread use (or overuse!) and popularity of regional jets in the U.S. First, Amercan pulls the ATR's from ORD. Passengers love the smooth flights and speed. Other airlines take notice and begin using them also. Just a thought.
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knope2001
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:17 pm

In great part it is due to the competition between United and American, the only two players in the ORD regional market. AA* went all-jet at ORD several years ago and boasted of that advantage, and so UA* responded in kind.

Certainly limited resources (slots) and cost to operate at the airport played a big role in weeding out props in the 1990s, but the AA* / UA* battle is also key.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:36 pm

Quoting Ktachiya (Reply 2):
Hmm..... well I don't know about the numbers of rwys at ORD but I would presume because it is because its approach speed is slower than jets. On the other hand, it can cause problems when taxiing. I've seen this many times at YVR. I know that NRT does props, but thats limited to only a few flights per day. I think it can affect the final approach course of other jets. Just my guess

The props such as ATR's, Dash8's, E120's and SF34's actually do not have any impact on approach speeds of jets....other than taking up a slot for the most part these type of turbo-props are very capable of approach speeds up to a 5 mile final equal to the jets and inside often much faster or can be faster than the jet if needed even though touchdown speeds a bit slower.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:53 pm

Good examples of mixed jet and turboprop operations are SLC, LAX, SFO, SEA, and PDX. A good portion of traffic at these cities are turboprop.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:06 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
Good examples of mixed jet and turboprop operations are SLC, LAX, SFO, SEA, and PDX.

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FriendlySkies
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
How many smaller and older model CRJ-100/200s (50 seaters) do you see at ORD?

I take it you've never been to ORD...


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commavia
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 3):
You could trace the end of the props at ORD to the crash of American Eagle 4184 in 1994, due to icing on that particular ATR-72. After this crash, AMR stopped using the props in the northern cities, both for safety reasons and for public relations.

???

Eagle continued to use ATRs out of O'Hare for fully six years after the 1994 ATR72 crash. Eagle used ATRs on many shorter-range routes out of ORD like BMI, CMI, PIA, SPI, MKE, SBN, etc. up until the entire operation transitioned to RJs in November 2000, making it the nation's first all-RJ hub. It had nothign to do with ATRs' safety. It was a marketing point to differentiate from United at O'Hare, which was still using a good deal of props (ATP, Do328, etc.) on its shorter United Express flights.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
It was a marketing point to differentiate from United at O'Hare, which was still using a good deal of props (ATP, Do328, etc.) on its shorter United Express flights.

That's the key. It's the interplay of AA and UA. At DFW, there was never any need for MQ to crush EV with "all jets" advertising because AA was so much bigger than was DL. At ATL, DL uses ATRs to markets that FL doesn't even serve. The huge number of regional routes with competition was the key to the race away from props at ORD.
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mu2
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:22 am

It's not because of approach speed, that's for sure. I am told to slow to 160 all the time because I'm trailing a jet. The dash can do 210 to inside 5 miles, then flight idle, props 1200 and it will stop and fall out of the sky!
 
roseflyer
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:39 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
Good examples of mixed jet and turboprop operations are SLC, LAX, SFO, SEA, and PDX. A good portion of traffic at these cities are turboprop.

The west coast with the exception of SFO is incredibly different than the midwest. The west coast has tons of props. SEA has very few regional jets and has tons of props operated by Horizon and United Express. In the midwest and east coast, regional jets gained more popularity.

I think slot restrictions have played a big role. United is moving towards 70 seat regional jets at ORD and are moving away from the 50 seat jets. American Eagle still has tons of ERJs.
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HPAEAA
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
The west coast with the exception of SFO is incredibly different than the midwest. The west coast has tons of props. SEA has very few regional jets and has tons of props operated by Horizon and United Express. In the midwest and east coast, regional jets gained more popularity.

I think slot restrictions have played a big role. United is moving towards 70 seat regional jets at ORD and are moving away from the 50 seat jets. American Eagle still has tons of ERJs.

Slots have played some role.. AA has has backed off the capacity at ORD and is rather persuing the O&D Market there... by using the regionals and moving some of the CR7's that they have to the DFW base the are limiting the amoung of connecting seats there... helps at the ATO when ORD goes to hell and none of the people on the plane are connecting! Now I'm not saying they have eliminated the connecting traffic rather, are working to reduce it due to the problems there.
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Cessna057
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
honestly I think the slot control at ORD makes props impractical

Yea i deffinitly agree. The slot system at ORD has detered many airlines from going there and using MDW instead, for small planes at least.
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Areopagus
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 5):
The props such as ATR's, Dash8's, E120's and SF34's actually do not have any impact on approach speeds of jets

I was listening in to channel 9 on a UAL flight into ORD, when I heard control request a turboprop to increase its approach speed if able. A little later, the same request was repeated, and then again a third time. Finally, the controller ordered our airliner to go around. The extra half hour we had to spend in the air, together with the hour of ground hold at SJC for Chicago weather, caused us to miss our connection. We ended up arriving at MIA about eight ours late, which wouldn't have happened if the turboprop had been able to comply with the request to fly at the same approach speed as the jets.
 
Carpethead
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:24 pm

I am not exactly current on ORD ops but has LAHSO operations affected how ORD operates?
During a south-wind, Runway 14L can be used as a LAHSO landing runway. With only 5,000 ft of runway before the intersection of 22R, AA Eagle ATRs and UAX ATPs would use this runway. With RJs this would not be a very safe method of operations.
With a west-wind, Runway 27R or 22R can be either used as a LAHSO landing runway. This is for only VFR operations and everything falls apart if bad weather comes in.

Last time ORD had regular prop traffic was when ZK had their BE1 & EM2 and Air Wisconsin with their Dornier 328s more than three years ago.
 
stlgph
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 15):
which wouldn't have happened if the turboprop had been able to comply with the request to fly at the same approach speed as the jets.

from what i understand from speaking with pilots, it is not so much the speed of the props that is the issue - it is the matter that the jets aren't able to slow down as easily.
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Cubsrule
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 16):
During a south-wind, Runway 14L can be used as a LAHSO landing runway. With only 5,000 ft of runway before the intersection of 22R, AA Eagle ATRs and UAX ATPs would use this runway. With RJs this would not be a very safe method of operations.

This is correct. 18-36 was decommisioned once props had left the airport as nothing scheduled could use it. It was 5000 feet long.
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CWAFlyer
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:06 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 16):
I am not exactly current on ORD ops but has LAHSO operations affected how ORD operates?
During a south-wind, Runway 14L can be used as a LAHSO landing runway. With only 5,000 ft of runway before the intersection of 22R, AA Eagle ATRs and UAX ATPs would use this runway. With RJs this would not be a very safe method of operations.
With a west-wind, Runway 27R or 22R can be either used as a LAHSO landing runway. This is for only VFR operations and everything falls apart if bad weather comes in.

Last time ORD had regular prop traffic was when ZK had their BE1 & EM2 and Air Wisconsin with their Dornier 328s more than three years ago.

RJ's can and do use LAHSO, but I have never heard or seen a plane doing it on 14L. LAHSO is great until the runways get wet.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 15):
was listening in to channel 9 on a UAL flight into ORD, when I heard control request a turboprop to increase its approach speed if able. A little later, the same request was repeated, and then again a third time. Finally, the controller ordered our airliner to go around. The extra half hour we had to spend in the air, together with the hour of ground hold at SJC for Chicago weather, caused us to miss our connection. We ended up arriving at MIA about eight ours late, which wouldn't have happened if the turboprop had been able to comply with the request to fly at the same approach speed as the jets.

Not sure of your specific situation but I will tell you they are more than capable of keeping up on final, now if other things have created an unworkable sequence sure then someone is going around but it isn't due to the aircraft mentioned in your quote of my post not being able to fly with the airliners in jets.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 17):
it is the matter that the jets aren't able to slow down as easily.

An excellent point....and put that into the mix of possibly being "a little high, good thing cuzz they're plenty fast"  Smile that even makes it more fun to fit into an arrival pack. If the controller didn't plan the final sequence correctly that jet that is not slowing as rapidly as the preceding t/p is again going to hear those words....turn right heading 350, climb and maintain 3,000!
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DC8FanJet
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:20 am

The AA/UA marketing did props at ORD in, pure & simple. AAEagle went all jet, UAExpress followed. Actually, having an "all jet" airport has increased traffic issues to some degree as everything is now approaching ORD high & fast as compared to the old days when the props made their initial approaches lower and slower and only had to be blended in for the final.
 
airfinair
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting DC8FanJet (Reply 22):
The AA/UA marketing did props at ORD in, pure & simple. AAEagle went all jet, UAExpress followed.

Excellent point. Can you offer you opinion on why AAEagle went all props and when the start of the transition occured? As I posted earlier in the thread, I have always felt that the negative publicity given the AAEagle 4184 icing accident could have been the begining of the end for AAEagle props at ORD and other northern cities. Once AA started transitioning to RJ's and marketing the "comforts and speed of RJ service," UAL followed, and then other airlines. I would love to hear your thoughts.
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DC8FanJet
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:36 am

As best I can recall, AA had already made decision prior to 4184, but someone else may have more info on that. Turboprops have improved considerably since then, the Q series would make much more sense financially, but I don't see either carrier blinking first.
 
commavia
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 23):
As I posted earlier in the thread, I have always felt that the negative publicity given the AAEagle 4184 icing accident could have been the begining of the end for AAEagle props at ORD and other northern cities.

One had nothing to do with the other. They were in no way connected. Eagle 4184 crashed in Roselawn on October 31, 1994. American Eagle didn't even begin flying Regional Jets until May 1998, almost four years later, and the O'Hare hub didn't go all-jet until November 2000, over two years after that.

In addition, Eagle was using ATRs at O'Hare for six years after the Roselawn crash, on shorter flights like to the Illinois cities and also to Milwaukee, South Bend, etc. Their safety was never an issue with operating them. Eagle's decision to go all-RJ was marketing, and a bit of economics, pure and simple. The ATRs' safety had nothing to do with it.

In the late 1990s, Eagle and American were fighting an uphill battle against United at O'Hare and were trying to find a way to differentiate their brand in the market and compete effectively with United/United Express, which had more slots and more gates. They settled on Regional Jets, which would allow United to be much more competitive with United in markets where United had mainline jets and Eagle was flying props, hardly a really competitive aircraft. (Of course, the irony is that in many of these markets in the last five years, United has now transitioned to RJs as well.) In addition, the RJs made good sense for many markets where, at that time, their speed, comfort and novetly versus props actually led them to generating higher unit revenues than props. Now, since then, it has also been largely discovered that their astronomical unit operating costs make many shorter markets uneconomic, which is why Eagle has dropped so many cities from its O'Hare hub over the years, but nonetheless, Eagle's RJ program -- and the gleaming new RJ terminal they built at Concourse G -- definitely served its purpose in improving American/Eagle's standing at their O'Hare hub.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Quite honestly I think the slot control at ORD makes props impractical. How many smaller and older model CRJ-100/200s (50 seaters) do you see at ORD? If airlines are smart, they are also a minority and will become scarce there as well.

Quite a few and ERJ's too.

Quoting Airfinair (Reply 3):
You could trace the end of the props at ORD to the crash of American Eagle 4184 in 1994, due to icing on that particular ATR-72. After this crash, AMR stopped using the props in the northern cities, both for safety reasons and for public relations.

That had nothing to do with it. It was a race to be an all jet hub in the 90's. Mostly driven by Delta at CVG serving all midwest markets with RJ's. It then moved to a competition between UA and AA to be the first in Chicago. They had quite the advertising campaign about it.
 
mikefad
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:50 am

I remember the buzz surrounding the switch to all jets at O'hare several years ago. The main thing that stands out is the 'perception factor' as far as safety is concerned. Airfinair hit on it with the AA Eagle crash as a motivation to go to all jets as the public began to view props as unsafe. The Chicago press covered the crash extensively.
Actually switching to all jets DOES make one feel a bit "safer" IMO.
 
charlienorth
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:07 am

I worked at AMR Eagle at O'Hare for over 8 years,the switch to jets had nothing to do with 4184,it was strictly marketing.Istartedin they '90's,the first we heard of it was in PIAsome pax indicated the would rather board the UAX 1900 to the AMR SD360 parked out front,even though the SD360 was better all the way around the pax told the MQ agent that the 1900 "looked more like an airplane" this was repeated at many stations. We knew jets were in the future depending on APA'S scope clause. In early 1997 when AA's pilots were ready to strike I spoke personally to Dan Garton who at the time was AA Eagle President at a presidents conference said "people will not get on an airplane with propellers" when I asked about SAAB 2000's,corporate contracts do not want props,they don't want coach..the reason for ex-plus,props probably will not be seen at O'Hare in the future in any form except for corporate.
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airfinair
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:30 am

Not due to Eagle 4184. Thanks for the clarification, guys.
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N1120A
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:41 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
How many smaller and older model CRJ-100/200s (50 seaters) do you see at ORD?

You are kidding, right?

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Quite honestly I think the slot control at ORD makes props impractical.

In what way? Most Dash-8s are the same size or larger than the majority of RJs. If anything, it is the RJs that are eating up slots

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
The west coast with the exception of SFO is incredibly different than the midwest. The west coast has tons of props.

SFO has tons of props as well.

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 14):
Yea i deffinitly agree. The slot system at ORD has detered many airlines from going there and using MDW instead, for small planes at least.

Again, a little research please. Slots have nothing to do with it when the Q400 is LARGER than the CR7, let alone the CR2.

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 15):
I was listening in to channel 9 on a UAL flight into ORD, when I heard control request a turboprop to increase its approach speed if able.

So listening to Channel 9 once, perhaps 5 years ago, means props can't increase their approach speed. I will let you in on a little secret that isn't really a secret, under 10,000 feet ALL aircraft must slow to 250 kts or slower unless specifically instructed otherwise by ATC. Every turboprop in service with the regionals is capable of that.

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 15):
We ended up arriving at MIA about eight ours late, which wouldn't have happened if the turboprop had been able to comply with the request to fly at the same approach speed as the jets.

The turboprop was fully capable, it is possible the pilot missed it.
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Cessna057
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
So listening to Channel 9 once, perhaps 5 years ago, means props can't increase their approach speed. I will let you in on a little secret that isn't really a secret, under 10,000 feet ALL aircraft must slow to 250 kts or slower unless specifically instructed otherwise by ATC. Every turboprop in service with the regionals is capable of that.

The French are so nice and understanding.   

Let me let you in on a little secret which isnt really a secret.

It doesnt matter if a turboprop is CAPABLE of the speed. Hell, at that point why doesnt a 747 just blast into an approach at 350 knots? The landing speed for turboprops are about 100 knots, not 250, and having a plane land 150 knots over landing speed is not a good thing. For that matter, having a plane land 30 knots over their landing speed is bad.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
The turboprop was fully capable, it is possible the pilot missed it.

No, they aren't.

So dude, don't fry people for things like this, there are alot more things that involved more than just if a plane is capable of a speed.

And the thing about the slots: I was refering to the fact that the slots may deter regional airlines that predominately operate turbo props from going into ORD with their slot system, not their speed or weight.

[Edited 2006-09-29 05:16:39]
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ckfred
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:21 pm

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 13):
AA has has backed off the capacity at ORD and is rather persuing the O&D Market there... by using the regionals and moving some of the CR7's that they have to the DFW base the are limiting the amoung of connecting seats there... helps at the ATO when ORD goes to hell and none of the people on the plane are connecting! Now I'm not saying they have eliminated the connecting traffic rather, are working to reduce it due to the problems there.

There is still a lot of connecting traffic for AA at ORD. If you arrive at ORD, the F/A still reads a laundry list of connecting gates (And I'm amazed when coming in from ATL at some people making connections at ORD, rather than flying non-stop on DL).

My wife has been flying a lot to CLT, and the agents at CLT have to rebook a lot of passengers departing CLT onto flights to DFW, when the flights for ORD get delayed by weather in Chicago.
 
ampropilot2b
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:34 pm

Actually Cessna, jets don't land at 250 kts either. I have piloted both the E120 and the CRJ,CR7. With the E120, you could maintain 250kts much closer to the runway and still make a safe landing. Once on the ground, a turboprop can decelarate in less than half the distance required in the jet, requiring less time on the runway. Operationally, the only reason I could see to not have turboprops into ORD would be the initial descent/Arrival phase, and the departure phase of flight. Many turboprops don't hold 250kts well during level flight above 10000. Of course this doesn't really hold water since many airports flow props on different arrivals/departures than the jets. I guess the most likely explanation if its not just marketing (as mentioned above), is that it simplifies a very complex ATC environment by having airplanes with similar performance (jets), all using the same arrival/departure procedures, flying at the same speeds.

Just to add something new to the mix...I would suggest that the 50 seat RJs do nearly as much to back-up arrivals and departures in ORD, simply because they have terrible climb performance and landing performance relative to their peer aircraft. I can't tell you how many times I've been climbing out with a higher performance jet behind me that had to slow because at our standard climb profile, 290kts, we were getting 1000-1500fpm, and had to climb at 250 to see any performance. On landing, the CRJ lands faster than other airplanes because it has no leading edge devices on the wing. That faster speed can mean more time/distance to decelerate, and more time on the runway. ATC in ORD is tops, and the really pack the planes in tight. Go-arounds happen more frequently because of spacing at Ohare. I guess if you can pack in an extra dozen planes/hr, a few go-arounds every day is a small price to pay.
 
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knope2001
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RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 32):
There is still a lot of connecting traffic for AA at ORD. If you arrive at ORD, the F/A still reads a laundry list of connecting gates (And I'm amazed when coming in from ATL at some people making connections at ORD, rather than flying non-stop on DL).

I find it very interesting to hear the connecting info on feeder flights like this. Often some rather unexpected destinations! But there are a number of reasons why someone might fly (as an example) American ATL-ORD-OKC rather than ATL-OKC nonstop on Delta.

(1) Nonstops at their desired time full or nearly full (the last few seats might be full-coach fare.)

(2) Non-rev travelers who have to fly certain airlines or have chosen a routing with lots of available seats and/or backup flight options.

(3) Mileage junkies who don't need/want Delta miles, or who specifically need AA miles or segements for premier status or to meet a particular promo.

(4) Joining up with others on the connecting leg (going to a wedding in OKC and meeting up at O'Hare with family flying there ROC-ORD-OKC.)

(5) Cheap fare, including ultra-cheap web and "opaque" travel vendor fares. If you're going to find a $79 last minute ATL-OKC fare on Priceline, it's likely not going to be Delta because they own the nonstop ATL-OKC market and don't want to dilute their pricing power on it. But if American has a lot of empty seats on ATL-ORD and ORD-OKC on the day you look for, they are more likely to offer dirt cheap fares through someone like Orbitz or Priceline. Delta might do it to, but on tertiary connecting routes for them like ORD-ATL- MEM.
 
scaledesigns
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:12 am

RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 1:35 am

The runway 36 was only used by
very small aircraft and Air Wisconsin Dash 7s.It still crossed 9L-27R,so
they had no advantage to use it.Plus it counted against the cities plan
to expand runways at ORD.
F1 Tommy
 
Cessna057
Posts: 417
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:24 am

RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Ampropilot2b (Reply 33):
Actually Cessna, jets don't land at 250 kts either.

Yeah I know but the landing speed is still much less than
a jet.
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
 
AADC10
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2004 7:40 am

RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:35 am

West coast aiports have props because aside from not being slot restricted (ORD is not formally slot restricted but the agreement has essentially the same effect) those props tend to fly very short distance routes north and south to small cities that many people drive to. In California, these are places like Palm Springs, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbers, Modesto, Fresno, Monterey, Visalia, Chico and Eureka. These are rather small towns and Californians love to drive.

WN has taken all of the intra-state routes so all of the rest are marginal ones that are lucky to have service at all. Even before WN, PSA and later AirCal held much of the market between the larger cities in California since they were never regulated. At ORD the small planes compete mostly in the absense of WN but against each other and often over longer routes.
 
ckfred
Posts: 4719
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting Knope2001 (Reply 34):
I find it very interesting to hear the connecting info on feeder flights like this. Often some rather unexpected destinations! But there are a number of reasons why someone might fly (as an example) American ATL-ORD-OKC rather than ATL-OKC nonstop on Delta.

Those are good reasons. But on my last trip from ATL, the F/A announced gate information for flights to LAX and LGA. It just strikes me as odd to go so far out of the way, when DL offers so many non-stops from ATL.

On the other hand, my wife's employer has DL as the preferred carrier, becasue HQ is in CVG. Her boss in Chicago used to take DL no matter where he was going, LAX, SAT, SEA, PHL, LGA, BNA and change in either CVG, SLC, or ATL, even though company policy allows for flying other carriers, if DL offers no non-stop. He was simply racking up the miles, because he was mid-level elite.
 
HPAEAA
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 7:24 am

RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 32):
There is still a lot of connecting traffic for AA at ORD. If you arrive at ORD, the F/A still reads a laundry list of connecting gates (And I'm amazed when coming in from ATL at some people making connections at ORD, rather than flying non-stop on DL).

My wife has been flying a lot to CLT, and the agents at CLT have to rebook a lot of passengers departing CLT onto flights to DFW, when the flights for ORD get delayed by weather in Chicago.



Quoting Ckfred (Reply 38):
Those are good reasons. But on my last trip from ATL, the F/A announced gate information for flights to LAX and LGA. It just strikes me as odd to go so far out of the way, when DL offers so many non-stops from ATL.

On the other hand, my wife's employer has DL as the preferred carrier, becasue HQ is in CVG. Her boss in Chicago used to take DL no matter where he was going, LAX, SAT, SEA, PHL, LGA, BNA and change in either CVG, SLC, or ATL, even though company policy allows for flying other carriers, if DL offers no non-stop. He was simply racking up the miles, because he was mid-level elite.

Cheers!, I'll admit, my DFW employer has me fly AA no matter what. Sometimes on the road trips it requires odd routing's but they still want me flying AA. I'm not saying that there is no connecting traffic, just that they've been toning it back over the past few years at ORD. you might hear 10 connecting gates, however that might be only 10 people... I remember re-booking alot of those passengers like you mentioned however the numbers of conx were always smaller through ord as opposed to DFW. just my .02
Why do I fly???
 
ORDagent
Posts: 580
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:24 am

RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:52 pm

When I worked for AA in the '90s we were told we had 30% O&D which for a hub is huge.

AA's slogan for Eagle was "nothing but jets" and the fantastic g concorse rebuild allowed for ALL flights to have jet bridges which IIRC UA still can't do at ORD.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11444
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 40):
IIRC UA still can't do at ORD.

That's correct, though they're closer than they have been with the relocation of a fair number of CR7s and E70s to the low C gates.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
remford
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:54 pm

RE: Why No Props At ORD?

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:58 am

One of the primary reasons is the competitive hub ORD is between AA and UA. Back when all of the regionals and feeders were considering fleet renewal programs to jets, there was a huge marketing campaing, (full-page ads and many billboards) touting each carrier's "All Jet" service in ORD.

That accounts for a HUGE percentage of the commuter traffic to ORD, and the remaining being accounted-for by the capacity "rightsizing" of carriers like CO, who would turn other markets like CLE-ORD into RJ-135 and 145 service instead of half-empty 737's. Beyond that, DL would use them to CVG on occasion as Comair routes, and US only really served PHL, PIT, CLT with service frequencies and loads that warranted 737/320 family aircraft. From there, there just aren't many flights left; and even if all the remaning were operated by EMB 120's, ATR's, and the like, the volume would be so small as to seem non-existent, even if it wasn't.