Alitalia744
Topic Author
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:04 am

Saw this video on youtube - seems like the pilot is going fast around the corner to the runway, including throttling up during the turn. I know rolling take-offs are common, but this one seems to be on another level...

Alitalia MD80 Departure
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4659
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:58 am

I wouldn't describe this as normal but I wouldn't on the other hand say it was ultra-rare or indeed careless.

I once saw an Iberia DC-9 at Manchester (MAN) do a similar thing, except the motions were a little more violent! And I still didn't view that as risky or careless.

I have also been aboard a KLM 742 which did something very similar, and it didn't concern me.

Karl
 
JakTrax
Posts: 4659
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:01 am

I wouldn't describe this as normal but I wouldn't on the other hand say it was ultra-rare or indeed careless.

I once saw an Iberia DC-9 at Manchester (MAN) do a similar thing, except the motions were a little more violent! And I still didn't view that as risky or careless.

I have also been aboard a KLM 742 which did something very similar, and it didn't concern me.

Karl
 
lnglive1011yyz
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2003 12:23 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:43 am

Don't forget.. the perspective of the video is that you're only seeing a small portion of the runway as it's turning..

There is probably a very wide expanse of space there paved (to accomodate perhaps one or two planes holding at once), and if someone was on final, the pilot would likely want to move fast..

When I left ORD last month to MCO on an AAS 757, we did the 'turn-and-burn' similar to this video.. We actually turned quite quickly, which made the people around me gasp.

I was lovin' it all!

1011yyz
Pack your bags, we're going on a sympathy trip!
 
curlyheadboy
Posts: 814
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:56 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:04 am

The video was filmed in LIN, I live close to this airport and go spotting there quite often, it's not uncommon to hear the tower giving takeoff clearance while the aircraft is still on the taxiway. AZ pilots are probably used to this procedure and you can often see them giving throttle while still turning on the runway, getting the plane aligned and then setting takeoff power. It is actually not very "elegant" to watch...  Wink
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:07 am

I experienced it once on an ATA L1011 at AMS (a chartered flight to PBM) No biggie really. Only thought I had was that the pilot must have been in a hurry (we were already delayed for about two hours)
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
khobar
Posts: 1336
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2006 4:12 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:15 am

At least he didn't do 1/2 the roll down the runway with the spoilers deployed!
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:18 am

I was on that flight, in fact as you can see I filmed it  Silly
It did feel quite odd, but then most of what Alitalia was doing that day was odd and we were so p***ed off with them that we didn't get too distracted by this.
But I agree, quite odd
Alex
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
User avatar
sammyk
Posts: 1560
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 1999 11:31 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:47 am

Whether it's normal or not I love it when they do this. Experienced this once in BOM on an AI 744 in the wee hours.
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:54 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Thread starter):
I know rolling take-offs are common, but this one seems to be on another level...

The type of recording also gives it the effect of going faster. If you look closely it gives the apperance of stop action.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
SkepticAll
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:05 am

From my perspective as a tower controller, you got to hand it to a pilot who understands the phrase, "no delay".
 
MeanGreen
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:34 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:59 am

I agree, that's a no delay! Was on an AA S80 at SFO and we did the samething. I wonder if this is only common if there is no one behind you?
 
dz09
Posts: 361
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:20 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:04 am

Believe me, this is quite normal with AZ pilots. I was on flight once where maybe a third of the pax were still standing when the plane started leaving the gate.
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:10 am

I've been on mutliple 737's and MD-80's out of SEA that have done this at various hours...always a fun experience. Some people get nervous. That one did appear to be faster than anything I have experienced, but as someone else mentioned, the quality of YouTube might have something to do with that.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 12):
Believe me, this is quite normal with AZ pilots. I was on flight once where maybe a third of the pax were still standing when the plane started leaving the gate.

I'm sure that has as much to do with the pax as the pilots. I remember vividly my first flight on AZ when I was about 13. I flew JFK-FCO in one of their 747's...besides being treated like a pure annoyance by the FA's (I was traveling alone), the thing that really sticks out for me was the landing...the second the wheels touched the ground, the whole plane errupted in applause...quickly replaced by the sounds of hundreds of clicks as seatbelts came undone and people quickly stood up to get their bags...before we got entirely off the runway even! (They started standing up as soon as we started the turn to the taxiway.) This was summer 1989 I am pretty sure.

Only Italians could ignore rules and regulations so blatantly. (Saying this as a proud 1st generation Italian-American.) 

[Edited 2006-09-27 04:18:19]
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:56 pm

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 12):
Believe me, this is quite normal with AZ pilots. I was on flight once where maybe a third of the pax were still standing when the plane started leaving the gate.

Oh yeah same here.
Cockpit door open until takeoff, people wandering around, its far more laid back.
Alex
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
centrair
Posts: 2845
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2005 3:44 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:59 pm

Did something like this on a NW 744 when leaving NGO back in 1999. Quite impressive to be a max weight (weight restrictions at take off at old NGO), 100% seating, taxi, whip around a corner and take off in a 744.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
BOSGRU
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2005 11:48 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:01 am

i've been on planes that have done that a bunch of times. DL L1011 BCN-JFK, DL 763 MAD-JFK, BA 772 BOS-LHR, IB MD88 BCN-LHR just to name a few.
BOSGRU
 
ias250
Posts: 5
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:52 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:10 am

It's not unusal to do "rolling" takeoffs. It's a technique that reduces the amount of runway used for takeoff's thus having a safety enhancing effect.
Cheers!
 
charvett
Posts: 81
Joined: Fri May 04, 2001 1:31 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:26 am

My father told me (he's a retiered airline pilot) that some airports has
"High-Speed Taxiways"; upon where the intersections with runways
are smoother and not too cutting straight. Just look at airports like
Paris CDG, or Sydney's Kingford Smith... They aren't used to really begin
the take-off on them... but to expedite the process.
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting BOSGRU (Reply 17):
IB MD88 BCN-LHR just to name a few.

Do IB still operate the DOG into LHR from BCN? I've seen a few MD's from them at LHR but it always seems to be 320s and 757s from BCN

Thanks
PR
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
skysurfer
Posts: 1034
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 5:37 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:39 am

That happened to me back in 1999 when i flew YYZ - MAN on a Canada3000 A330. It had been snowing heavily, and our flight was delayed 3 hours due to it being stuck in Montreal. After pushback from YYZ, we taxied at a speed i've never seen before on all my flights, turned straight onto the runway and off we went......was a great experience.

Cheers

btw, i really do hate rolling take offs.....i love to come to a complete stop for a few seconds before hearing the engines spool up and then the brakes being released.
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
 
BAtriple7
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:05 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:43 am

Seems quite normal to me.

Quoting SkySurfer (Reply 21):
btw, i really do hate rolling take offs.....i love to come to a complete stop for a few seconds before hearing the engines spool up and then the brakes being released.

Have to agree on that one. Much cooler. Fly with the likes of U2 or FR though and you'll rarely get a standing start some days...
 
aerofede
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:33 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:44 am

From my perspective as an italian ATC, this was a "rolling" take-off (or no-delay, as our US colleagues call it) probably requested by tower control.
In LIN they have about 400 movements every day on the single instrumental runway (the smaller 36L/18R is 600mt long and not approved for instrument ops), and the rolling departure is the only way to take-off in the middle of a tight arrival sequence.

As an aside, this is done by AZ MD-82 pilots quite often, even in no-other-traffic situation: sometimes they taxy really fast to the runway and never stops if cleared in time to do so.
Many of the AZ MD-82 captains have a 20+ years experience on the aircraft, and they can be really smart in flying it. I have seen 290kts ground speed in no wind conditions until they were 3nm on final, and then they vacated the runway at the first intersection, some 1000mt from the threshold.

And they are really cooperative with us air traffic controller.
 
User avatar
DesertFlyer
Posts: 362
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:05 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:48 am

Most of the WN takeoffs out of OAK I've been on are similar to that. Good fun. Big grin
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting BAtriple7 (Reply 22):
Fly with the likes of U2 or FR though and you'll rarely get a standing start some days...

They are quick to get off turf and save costs  Smile
PR
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
trojanAE
Posts: 79
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 4:41 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:41 am

I recently downloaded Delta Airlines 777 Operations Manual and Delta asks their pilots to "conduct a rolling take-off whenever possible". Not only is it safer and give a shorter take-off roll, but it is also more economical due to not having to use throttles to overcome initial rolling resistance. For these same economic reasons Delta recommends use of thrust reduced take-offs as well whenever runway length allows.
I've had my share of rolling take-offs departing from VNO, where the low traffic volume almost always allows immediate take-off clearance while still on the taxi-way. Another interesting thing at VNO is that when departing Runway 20, where the taxiway doesn't take you all the way to the threshold, the pilots turn onto the runway, make their way up to the threshold, perform a quick U-turn on the runway, and immediately apply take-off thrust. It's quite an interesting experience.
"My soul is in the sky." -William Shakespeare
 
User avatar
United787
Posts: 2228
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 12:20 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:47 am

Not to get into another heated discussion about the recent Comair crash, I am sure that the primary cause will be shown as pilot error.

But...assuming that the pilots did a "rolling take-off" (maybe someone knows if this has been proven), could that have contributed to the mistakes made by the pilots? It seems as though if you start the takeoff from the taxiway, because of the hurried nature of a rolling take-off, that you may gloss over or rush past certain procedures such as double checking your heading to make sure that it matches your runway assignment. Any thoughts?
 
traineepilot
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2005 10:01 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:51 am

It perfectly normal. One of my friends also did this when he was captain of a 737-300. He said he can dramatically reduce takeoff distance (better in emergency).

I myself have also done it, you can then begin the take off roll at say a groundspeed of 25kts.
 
Lemurs
Posts: 1320
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 5:13 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 27):
But...assuming that the pilots did a "rolling take-off" (maybe someone knows if this has been proven), could that have contributed to the mistakes made by the pilots? It seems as though if you start the takeoff from the taxiway, because of the hurried nature of a rolling take-off, that you may gloss over or rush past certain procedures such as double checking your heading to make sure that it matches your runway assignment. Any thoughts?

It's not a bad idea, but the intial NTSB report says they clearly sat at the runway edge after taxiing, if I am not mistaken...so it didn't happen that way. Good thought though.
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:13 am

He was turning kinda fast, but it seems like everything was under control. As mentioned probably had a lot of space to play with Big grin

Personally I hate rolling takeoffs. I like to stop for a second and anticipate the rev for take off. I esp. like when the brakes are held as the engines spool up then, well you know Big grin
There is something special about planes....
 
chris133
Posts: 220
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 10:41 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:14 am

Just looks like a it was an expedite take-off clearance (probably due to traffic on final). Nothing to far out of the ordinary. Now i have seen a BA 777 landing at BWI turn onto the cross runway (04) with full TRs on. That was interesting to see close up.
 
Evan767
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:52 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 3:37 am

I find it a bit nerve-wracking when the pilots do do this. It once happened when I was on a flight from LAX-SLC on a DL MD-90. The pilot started applying power before turning and then before we had even lined up, and while we were beginning our turn, we were at full throttle.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
onewickedboi
Posts: 50
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 12:20 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:05 am

I would imagine that this procedure increases tire wear; perhaps this is preferred over engine wear if less thrust is necessary.

Do operating manuals address speeds for cornering. I've read elsewhere that high speed (30+ kts?) taxi over long periods can cause tire heat buildup.

Isn't there also a potential for stress damage to the landing gear if cornering speed is excessive or the turn is tight?
"instant gratification takes too long . . . "
 
JuniorSpotter
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:06 am

I've been on several flights (especially IB and JK) where the pilots have applied t/o thrust while turning on to the runway. Shaky and bumpy, but no danger what so ever.
If something can go wrong, it will.
 
JumboBumbo
Posts: 168
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:17 pm

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:14 am

I was on a early evening flight out of BOS on UA and we did a rolling takeoff in an A320... the conversation with ATC went something like,

Tower: "United XXX, if you can make the turn onto 4R immediately I can get you out of here, otherwise it'll be a few minutes"
UAXXX: "Uh... yeah, we can make it"
Tower: "Very well, United XXX winds are XXX at XX cleared for takeoff runway 4R, no delay"
UAXXX: "United XXX, we're rollin'"

I kind of like rolling takeoffs.... provides a little more excitement.
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:03 pm

Quoting Onewickedboi (Reply 33):
I would imagine that this procedure increases tire wear; perhaps this is preferred over engine wear if less thrust is necessary.

Probably cheaper  Wink
PR
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
captaink
Posts: 3987
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:43 am

RE: Alitalia MD80 Video - Normal Departure?

Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting JumboBumbo (Reply 35):
I kind of like rolling takeoffs.... provides a little more excitement.

I got a little excited reading your post..:D

Like that a rolling takeoff is fun Big grin
There is something special about planes....

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos