blooBirdie
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SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:11 pm

..from 30 Oct, according to this article.

Looks like competition works!
 
Leskova
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:34 am

What competition?

Nonetheless, nothing loaded into Sabre or Amadeus yet, both still show IAD-JNB as one-stop direct flight; and according to the article, JNB-IAD will, in any case, remain a one-stop direct flight, so it'll be nonstop southbound and one-stop northbound.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
pgtravel
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:38 am

What has changed recently that allows them to do this? The old ATL-JNB flight was nonstop east/southbound when it was flown by a 744. When they put the 346 on the route instead, it started having to stop both ways. Did they just find some extra fuel tanks they weren't using?!?
 
Leskova
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 2):
What has changed recently that allows them to do this? The old ATL-JNB flight was nonstop east/southbound when it was flown by a 744. When they put the 346 on the route instead, it started having to stop both ways. Did they just find some extra fuel tanks they weren't using?!?

The A346 was and is capable of flying the route nonstop - the difference is simply that SAA opted to transport as much cargo as possible, which kept them from flying nonstop.

They seem to now have decided that they'd prefer to fly nonstop.

As for ATL-JNB... was that really nonstop? As far as I remember, there was a stop enroute...

... and this is what SAA's website says about it:

Quote:
22 December, 2004, JOHANNESBURG: To optimise existing route networks, streamline operational costs and meet customer demands for flights out of Atlanta to Johannesburg, South African Airways (SAA) will no longer fly directly between Cape Town and Atlanta in the United States.
From 1 February, services between South Africa and Atlanta will originate from Johannesburg.
Usually, on Monday, Tuesdays and Thursdays, flights to Atlanta originate from Cape Town to Johannesburg and Ilha do Sal before proceeding to the United States. On Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays the flight departs Johannesburg proceeding to Cape Town and Ilha do Sal and then on to Atlanta.
Now all Atlanta bound flights will originate from Johannesburg.

So there was a stop.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 1):
What competition?

Nonetheless, nothing loaded into Sabre or Amadeus yet, both still show IAD-JNB as one-stop direct flight; and according to the article, JNB-IAD will, in any case, remain a one-stop direct flight, so it'll be nonstop southbound and one-stop northbound.

The article seems indicates that the flight will be nonstop in both directions, except for a few months in the summer. Clearly, they will be taking a weight penalty to do it, but they have decided it's worth it. From a competitive point of view, this is great. I have flown the JFK-JNB, ATL-JNB, and JFK-SID-JNB, and frankly, nonstop (even in one direction) is so much better.
 
Leskova
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 4):
The article seems indicates that the flight will be nonstop in both directions, except for a few months in the summer.

I'm not sure where you're reading that, because this certainly seems to indicate otherwise:

Quote:
According to SAA, this would be the only non-stop flight from North America to South Africa but the flight to Washington will still stop in Dakar.

No doubt that it's more comfortable for passengers with a nonstop flight, even if only in one direction... it's just the question whether it's really worth it for SAA.

And again the question - since you point out that a nonstop is better from a "competetive point of view": what competition?

Does any airline currently offer nonstops from the US to South Africa? Or is any airline (except, as it seems, SAA) currently planning to do so?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
FoxBravo
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:58 am

Wish they would bring back the nonstop JFK-JNB as well...
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
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PA110
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:00 am

From what I gather, the announcement might be a bit premature. The reason why no schedules are in the system, is because the BRAIN TRUST that passes for SA management haven't quite worked it out yet. No doubt, as with the constant tinkering with the IAD schedule, this will continue to be tinkered with until they eventually get it right.

SA only recently changed the timings of the return from JNB back to IAD because a disproportionately large number of onward passengers were missing their UA connecting flights.

Let's just hope that SA works out the timing in a modelling computer instead of putting us all through real time "trial and error" live in the system.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
Umhlanga
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:32 am

This is good news. Even though the trip will be non-stop in just one direction, that's at least no worse than things used to be back in the good old days when SAA flew JFK-JNB nonstop with the 744. I hope this becomes reality, and congratulations to SAA for finally seeing the light. No more uncomfortable, sleep-disrupting, smelly, hot, west African stops (southbound  Smile)!!


Best regards,
Umhlanga
 
ScottB
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
And again the question - since you point out that a nonstop is better from a "competetive point of view": what competition?

The competition is obviously Delta's new ATL-DKR-JNB flight beginning in December. Being able to offer non-stop service from the U.S. distinguishes them from the competition, which will continue to offer one-stop service. United's IAD hub doesn't offer anywhere near as many connecting opportunities as ATL had provided before SA ditched the DL codeshare in favor of joining Star. I'm still somewhat surprised that SA chose Star over SkyTeam.
 
jfk777
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:39 am

All south bound services should be Nonstop from JFK & IAD. I hope to see SAA at MIA again for nonstop both ways to Capetown. Miss that 744 using up all 12,000 feet of the long runway at MIA.
 
Leskova
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 9):
I'm still somewhat surprised that SA chose Star over SkyTeam.

I'm not really surprised - in Asia and Europe, Star beats SkyTeam by a huge margin, and there's not much to be said about SkyTeam in South America either (though with RG at it's current state, there's not much for Star there either) - and I doubt that the advantage of the connections being offered at ATL would have come close to covering the disadvantage of having, essentially, nothing in Europe (except for CDG) and nothing in Asia (as long as SAA doesn't fly to ICN).

If at all, Oneworld would have made sense - but Star, from my point of view, make far more sense than SkyTeam.
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gigneil
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:21 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 10):
All south bound services should be Nonstop from JFK & IAD.

Thanks for your brilliant analysis of why. There are many, many benefits to not running the flight nonstop and that's why they haven't to this point.

Either the cargo loads from Dulles are light southbound, or the yield southbound is so hot that they don't need to choose cargo over passengers and can route the cargo via JFK or another method.

Otherwise this is a stupid move on their part.

N
 
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PA110
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:28 am

Actually, SAA has surplus of cargo capacity. There are several freighters a week from JFK, so they don't need the additional cargo capacity. The decision to make the IAD southbound flight nonstop was in response to market demand, and loss of market share to European carriers from offline points in the USA. For example, SA has very strong demand in the West, but has been losing ground to BA, VS, LH and KL because of the current lousy schedule. Red-eye from West Coast to IAD arriving o'dark thirty, with a 6 hour layover before flying SA with yet another stop enroute before reaching JNB. For those continuing to CPT, yet another connection, whereas BA, VS and KL can offer nonstops from their European gateways to CPT, making the journey from the USA a lot smoother.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
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PA110
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:42 am

Just heard from SA. New schedule for SA208 southbound will be as follows:

Depart IAD 1700, arrive JNB 1545 +1
Except Jul/Aug when summer heat requires fuel stop and current schedule will apply

Timing of SA207 northbound will remain unchanged.
It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
 
SAA201
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 14):
Depart IAD 1700, arrive JNB 1545 +1
Except Jul/Aug when summer heat requires fuel stop and current schedule will apply

Current schedule as in a midday dep from IAD???

I would imgine that they will keep the new late afternoon dep time during these months when there will be a stop and the arrival times will be about 2 hours later.

Current timings for SA208 are:
IAD 1250 0045+1 DKR 0145+1 1200+1 JNB

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 12):
Either the cargo loads from Dulles are light southbound, or the yield southbound is so hot that they don't need to choose cargo over passengers and can route the cargo via JFK or another method.

It could also be that the pax loads on the IAD-DKR-IAD sectors are possibly not that great so leaving DKR out on the return leg may work out cheaper. (does SAA even have 5th freedom rights on this sector?) Won't be surprised to see the outbound JNB-DKR-IAD flight being routed via SID instead of DKR sometime in the future too.

I've heard that the DKR-JFK-DKR portion on the JNB-DKR-JFK&return service is a bit of a goldmine (from a pax revenue point of view) so will possibly stay as is for the moment.
 
SeeTheWorld
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 5):
I'm not sure where you're reading that, because this certainly seems to indicate otherwise:

Quote:
According to SAA, this would be the only non-stop flight from North America to South Africa but the flight to Washington will still stop in Dakar.

Oops. I guess I read too fast. Nonstop in one direction is a competitive edge to DL's new ATL flight. Interestingly, the JFK-JNB nonstop in the day did stop in SID once per week (on Tuesdays) so as to provide the Locals in the Cape Verde Islands the ability to get to and from the U.S. nonstop.

Since SAA will still stop in DKR from JFK, offering one weekly IAD-DKR-JNB for local traffic apparently isn't needed since IAD-DKR local traffic can flow through JFK on the way back.

Also, a 1700 departure from IAD is SO MUCH BETTER than the original early morning schedule which lacked connections from a large portion of the Midwest and Mountain states.
 
N1120A
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
As for ATL-JNB... was that really nonstop? As far as I remember, there was a stop enroute...

It did go non-stop for a while
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ScottB
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 11):
I'm not really surprised - in Asia and Europe, Star beats SkyTeam by a huge margin

But, SAA doesn't fly with its own aircraft to any Star hubs in Asia, and its presence at Star hubs in Europe is limited to FRA and 3x weekly to ZRH. With Kenya Airways taking associate membership in SkyTeam, and with better coverage in the Americas, SkyTeam would have been an excellent fit for SA.
 
PanAm747
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:08 am

I still don't understand SA's timing of IAD-JNB - it is impossible to catch connecting passengers from the west coast unless they have flown overnight AND had a 6-7 hour layover.

DL's ATL-DKR-JNB is much better timed, one-stop or not.

Any reasoning for SA's timing?
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AT502B
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:12 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
As for ATL-JNB... was that really nonstop? As far as I remember, there was a stop enroute...

It did go non-stop for a while

That's correct there was a period where all southbound flights were non-stop except for 1 JFK flight a week that stopped in Sal enrote to JNB/CPT.

It's about time SAA finally realized people east of the Mississippi couldn't make a morning departure from IAD with suitable connections.
Also bringing back the Southbound non-stop is going to make SA the Quickest way to South Africa for most of North-America, where previously is was almost as fast to connect thru Europe. Now if we can just work on a non-stop back to the USA  Wink
Now that SA has better connections, a non-stop and more pitch in economy class it's going to definately change my future travel plans back home.  thumbsup 
I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning.
 
Leskova
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting ScottB (Reply 18):
But, SAA doesn't fly with its own aircraft to any Star hubs in Asia, and its presence at Star hubs in Europe is limited to FRA and 3x weekly to ZRH.

I must admit that I missed the fact that, indeed, SAA doesn't fly to Asia any longer - yet with SQ's daily flight to SIN and TG's soon to start 3 weekly flights to BKK, compared with no connections to Skyteam-hubs in Asia at all, Star still is the better choice... it would have been somewhat of a tie with Oneworld, because that would have given SAA Asia (CX) and Australia (QF and SA): at current flights, Skytem would have given SAA neither one...

Aside from that, in Europe their presence is not just limited to FRA (daily from JNB as well as daily from CPT) and ZRH... as it seems, you forgot LHR and BD (ok... I admit that BD is just a shadow of what it once was, but nonetheless, it is a Star member). With Skyteam, they'd be down to CDG.

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 16):
Interestingly, the JFK-JNB nonstop in the day did stop in SID once per week (on Tuesdays) so as to provide the Locals in the Cape Verde Islands the ability to get to and from the U.S. nonstop.

If I recall correctly, it was a daily stop on the northbound, and a weekly stop on the southbound.

Quoting SAA201 (Reply 15):
Won't be surprised to see the outbound JNB-DKR-IAD flight being routed via SID instead of DKR sometime in the future too.

I'll admit that my SAA contacts are nowhere near as good as they used to be, but at the time that they removed SID as a stop, there was a bit of a "thank goodness we're out of there" and "never again" mood around... but maybe that's changed...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
It did go non-stop for a while

What about the northbound? Did that go nonstop? Or was that the one that stopped at FLL?
Smile - it confuses people!
 
SAA201
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 19):
DL's ATL-DKR-JNB is much better timed, one-stop or not.

Flight Departing Arriving Stops /
Aircraft Duration Operational days
Delta Air Lines
DL 34 William B Hartsfield (ATL), Atlanta, Georgia, USA
Terminal S 15:55
Johannesburg Int'l (JNB), Johannesburg, South Africa
Terminal A 16:50+1 day(s)
1 stop(s)
767 17h55min Daily

Why is this better timed than SAA's new schedule from IAD to JNB effective 30 Oct 2006? ie Depart IAD 1700, arrive JNB 1545 +1
 
SAA201
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 21):
SAA doesn't fly to Asia any longer

SAA flies daily to Hong Kong with A340-600's! Where's that?  Wink
 
SAA201
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:34 am

And Mumbai 4 times per week!!!!  Smile
 
SAA201
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:37 am

Oh, Star hubs in Asia! Sorry....
 
SAA201
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 21):
What about the northbound? Did that go nonstop? Or was that the one that stopped at FLL?

SAA's only ever northbound non-stop flights from South Africa to the USA were from Cape Town to MIA and later Cape Town to FLL.
(There were also 2 non-stop ferry flights without pax following the "strike" last year. A 744 flew non-stop JNB-IAD and a 346 flew non-stop JNB-ATL IIRC! Those were once off though.)
 
Leskova
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:03 am

Quoting SAA201 (Reply 25):
Oh, Star hubs in Asia! Sorry....

Yupp...  Wink ... though (and I'm taking that as a sign that I should probably head for the bed rather soon Big grin) admittedly I had missed that one... where are the days when SAA flew to BKK as well - and wasn't there a flight to SIN for a time as well? Or was that just a "planned, but never started" flight? But at least we've established that SAA does, in fact, still fly to Asia.

Quoting SAA201 (Reply 26):
SAA's only ever northbound non-stop flights from South Africa to the USA were from Cape Town to MIA and later Cape Town to FLL.

For those longhauls, CPT probably would be the better starting point - JNB with it's hot-and-high location doesn't help... then again... since JNB is where the connections are, CPT isn't going to happen until there's a second daily from IAD/JFK...  Wink ... and for fleet planning, having practically all longhauls going into JNB and just a handful into CPT probably would complicate things.
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tomcat
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting SAA201 (Reply 25):
Oh, Star hubs in Asia! Sorry....

I might have missed something, but how is Hong Kong a Star Alliance Hub?
 
9252fly
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Tomcat (Reply 28):
I might have missed something, but how is Hong Kong a Star Alliance Hub?

It could well be,considering the amount of Star Alliance carriers operating to and from there such as AC,SQ,TG,UA,LH,NZ and SA. With the possibility of FM and CA joining the alliance,you might say it offers many of the benefits of a hub.
 
pgtravel
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
As for ATL-JNB... was that really nonstop? As far as I remember, there was a stop enroute...

It was definitely nonstop when I flew it back in December of 2003. Well, at least I don't think I slept through any stop. The flight left ATL around 10a and landed in JNB around 7a. Since I was coming from SFO, I had to take a redeye from SFO to ATL and then spend 4+ hours waiting for the flight to JNB. The return involved a middle of the night sit in SID.

That flight was painful for people starting in the west of the US, but it was great for people connecting beyond JNB (as I was - LUN). I wonder how many connecting opportunities they give up by arriving later in JNB? To be fair, there is an 1810 flight to LUN, so I would have been fine, but I'm sure many destinations lack that frequency.
 
birdbrainz
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Pgtravel (Reply 30):
That flight was painful for people starting in the west of the US, but it was great for people connecting beyond JNB (as I was - LUN). I wonder how many connecting opportunities they give up by arriving later in JNB? To be fair, there is an 1810 flight to LUN, so I would have been fine, but I'm sure many destinations lack that frequency.

It was indeed painful. Also, the late arrival into JNB was a hassle. I once lost a day in the Eastern Cape, as the last flight from JNB to East London was cancelled, and SAA had to put me up in JNB for the night. While the accomodations were nice, I didn't fly 10000 miles from SFO to spend extra time at JNB.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
skyhigh777
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting SeeTheWorld (Reply 16):
Also, a 1700 departure from IAD is SO MUCH BETTER than the original early morning schedule which lacked connections from a large portion of the Midwest and Mountain states.

You're telling me! I had to take the SAA flight in June when it still departed at that stupid time of 9:30am...thankfully I live in the DC suburbs so I didn't have to make any connections, but it was a pain in the ass waking up so early lemme tell ya!

Glad to see things are working out well with SAA on the IAD-JNB sector, the loads were packed when I went.
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richie87
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:26 am

I believe that SAA probably made a good move here from a competitive and perception point of view. I know quite a few people who travel to southern Africa from the US west coast and they had all bailed on flying SAA, in contrast to the "it's the only way to go" feeling just a few years ago. They are going to have to WIN some customers back. Their fare structures seem to have improved recently as well. I flew SAA in January of 2003 and we HAD to stop in both directions at Sal because SAA was under some FAA or such directive to not use all the fuel tanks on account of some fuel pump issue in said tanks which had not been resolved, and this was on a B744. Strange.

I'm going to South Africa this coming January, and still prefer the BA schedule... which departs SEA in the early evening, a short get out and stretch layover at LHR before an overnight to Cape Town... arriving there in the morning. Leaving JNB is in the mid evening... another overnight to LHR and while the layover there could be longer than I'd like... I'm spending one day and night there. BA arrives back at SEA mid-afternoon... all in all, the BA schedule is excellent.
 
warren747sp
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:56 pm

Still not interesting enough to get my business back. I will fly on the new Delta service to Joburg from the States and only fly SAA inter africa.
747SP
 
aero0729
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
As for ATL-JNB... was that really nonstop? As far as I remember, there was a stop enroute...

SAA used to fly CPT-FLL-ATL going northbound. 747-400
 
AF022
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting SAA201 (Reply 22):
Why is this better timed than SAA's new schedule from IAD to JNB effective 30 Oct 2006? ie Depart IAD 1700, arrive JNB 1545 +1

The flight leaves late enough for DL's first flights from the west coast and late enough for reasonable departure times from the rest of the country. Unfortunately, West Coast passengers will have to take a 0630 or 0720 departure, which isn't ideal, but they face almost the same situation with SAA's new flight from IAD (which I still don't see in Amadeus).
 
Leskova
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting AF022 (Reply 36):
The flight leaves late enough for DL's first flights from the west coast and late enough for reasonable departure times from the rest of the country.

DL? I think you're thinking of UA... SAA doesn't use DL for feeder flights any longer... especially not to IAD...  Wink

Quoting AF022 (Reply 36):
Unfortunately, West Coast passengers will have to take a 0630 or 0720 departure, which isn't ideal, but they face almost the same situation with SAA's new flight from IAD (which I still don't see in Amadeus).

What do you mean - "with SAA's new flight from IAD"? Those are the new times for the flight ex IAD!
Smile - it confuses people!
 
gigneil
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 37):
DL? I think you're thinking of UA... SAA doesn't use DL for feeder flights any longer... especially not to IAD... Wink

No, Frank, he's talking about connecting onto DL's own service.

NS
 
Leskova
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 38):
No, Frank, he's talking about connecting onto DL's own service.

Oops... thanks, Neil... seems I didn't sleep enough last night..  Wink


By the way, I just went through the IAD-JNB schedules in Sabre again... currently, the schedule actually has an A340-300 and an A340-600 operating the route alternatingly from 14 November to 30 November...
Smile - it confuses people!
 
BOMboy
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RE: SA To Go Nonstop IAD-JNB

Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting SAA201 (Reply 25):
And Mumbai 4 times per week!!!!

Goes up to 5/week soon!

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