KarlB737
Topic Author
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:51 pm

Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:09 pm

Courtesy: WCCO-TV

Northwest Gets Department Of Transportation OK To Launch Compass

Only FAA Approval Remains

http://wcco.com/business/local_story_271205506.html
 
zschocheimages
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:21 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:23 am

This is good for NW incase for some reason the financial situation at XJ doesn't clear up and they go under.
Why fly with 2 engines when you can have 3?
 
Cactus739
Posts: 2245
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:41 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting ZschocheImages (Reply 1):
This is good for NW incase for some reason the financial situation at XJ doesn't clear up and they go under.

Compass has what...*one* plane, two maybe? Won't be of much help if Mesaba does shut down....
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting ZschocheImages (Reply 1):
This is good for NW incase for some reason the financial situation at XJ doesn't clear up and they go under.

I totally agree. It will be nice to see Compass finally get off the ground after so much time.

Do they have their own codes yet? Will they get one since they have their own op. certificate?
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2811
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:38 am

Code is DH and the AOC is FlyI.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting FutureFO (Reply 4):
Code is DH and the AOC is FlyI

It can't be changed due to the fact the FlyI is now defunct? And Compass is a "brand new" airline?
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 5):
It can't be changed due to the fact the FlyI is now defunct? And Compass is a "brand new" airline?

I think he was implying that Compass will follow the path of Flyi.
 
Cactus739
Posts: 2245
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:41 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting KcrwFlyer (Reply 6):
think he was implying that Compass will follow the path of Flyi.

No. Compass is using the old FlyI operating certificate. NW won it in Indy's bankruptcy auction......
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
piercey
Posts: 2188
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2005 11:07 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 7):
No. Compass is using the old FlyI operating certificate. NW won it in Indy's bankruptcy auction......

correct, although they're changing the AOC a few months after first flight, IIRC.
Well I believe it all is coming to an end. Oh well, I guess we are gonna pretend.
 
ca2ohHP
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:14 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:24 am

Compass = Mid Atlantic Part II
 
xjramper
Posts: 2318
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:41 am

hmmm....makes sense now. Interesting.

/end thought

--------

I am sad to see XJ go, but at the same time, I am curious as to how NW will pull this one off.

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
AirRyan
Posts: 2398
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:57 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 7:46 am

Shows you real quick where NW top brass minds are at - remember that it was NW who originally started Pinnacle and than sold it to the employees at an expoential profit, and now look where the love is when the times are tough.

NW FA's should be on strike and nature needs to run its course.
 
kcrwflyer
Posts: 2535
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:57 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 7):
No. Compass is using the old FlyI operating certificate. NW won it in Indy's bankruptcy auction......

I forgot all about that.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sat Sep 30, 2006 8:19 pm

DOn't you get it? NW is on complete control of what is happening at XJ as well as Compass. XJ isn't in bankruptcy because they're mismanaged (which they are) they're in bankruptcy because NWA forced them there. Compass exists to make the NWA pilots happy and to force downward pressure on Mesaba and Pinnacle.

Everyone is getting screwed by Compass. Bottom line.




AZJ
 
ANNOYEDFA
Posts: 441
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:16 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:23 am

So basically they found another legal way to elimate jobs and cut pay... Pat on their backs!!! Here come the furloughes!!!
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4473
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 11):
Shows you real quick where NW top brass minds are at - remember that it was NW who originally started Pinnacle and than sold it to the employees at an expoential profit, and now look where the love is when the times are tough.

Shouldn't you also add that all the money received from the sale went to pay down the pension fund gap at NWA.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Ca2ohHP (Reply 9):
Compass = Mid Atlantic Part II

How so? MDA was on the US certificate...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 13):
NW is on complete control of what is happening at XJ

This thread is not about XJ, even though they might be relates, there are other threads to deal with what is happening at XJ, this is about the launch of Compass.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
m404
Posts: 1875
Joined: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:43 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:06 am

JetBlueGuy2006
Unfortunatly I think Azjubilee is right and his was closest to the comment I've been looking for in those other threads you mention. My statement "Does NW want XJ to go BK?"

I'm thinking Compass is very much part of the equation in XJ's future but was looking for ideas as to how it would play out. A BK filing may force payroll costs down but at what price in an already deflated industry that depends on bottom dollar bids to get contracts from Majors? Mesaba and Pinnacle and now NW already have problems getting qualified and willing workers at these prices. What about flight crews and what it costs them to be trained? Labor is only one side of this though. Who will invest in this segment of the industry at this point?

I think NW expected XJ to already be in step in the BK process by now but the legal talent and corporate desire may not have been up to the plan, especially if they didn't know it to begin with. But what happens next?
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6585
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting ANNOYEDFA (Reply 14):
So basically they found another legal way to elimate jobs and cut pay... Pat on their backs!!! Here come the furloughes!!!

ANNOYEDFA, you don't even know what you're talking about. With the rate of attrition, furloughing will not be an option. While Compass will be a separate entity, it will be sometime before they take delivery of a substantial number of jets to necessitate furloughing at this point. In time, the number of routes tranferring over to Compass will not be a windfall in numbers. And we, the mainline employees, will have the 77-110 seat aircraft, which will enact the small-jet pay when and if, they enter the fleet. While it is a shitty compromise, it does protect our scope somewhat. The start-up of the Compass routes will phase in, overtime. In that time, the company's demographic will have changed so drasitcally, that NW will be short handed in Compass and mainline. The mass exodus is happening as we speak. On average, between 5-7 people a day are quitting/retiring here in DTW, with similar numbers at other bases. Retirements at senior bases SFO/SEA/LAX/HNL are skyrocketing way beyond the norm over the last 5 years.
Made from jets!
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 2):
Won't be of much help if Mesaba does shut down....

Compass is the replacement for Mesaba. How long did Northwest avoid paying Mesaba to help force them into banruptcy? I wonder how many MAIR staff have been promised positions at Compass? The whole deal stinks. Lets force one regional operator out of business so we can start over with brand new employees, all at the bottom of the pay scale.
Proud OOTSK member
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4473
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:57 pm

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 21):
Unfortunately too many people are ignorant to the true organization that NWA really is and cannot see what is REALLY going on here. Heck! The BK judges cannot see through the bs. The sad part is that the "boys", and I use that term loosely, in Eagan are playing the employees that work for NWA and their Airlink partners like chess pieces in a nasty game they call running an airline. And for what? All for the cheapest costs to maximize the profits and bonusses at the top while at the same time forgetting that their running an airline that is in the service industry.

Could not have said it better myself. While I many times point out wrong information about NWA on this forum, I agree that NWA is acting with a design in mind and has been since the takeover by Wilson, Checchi, Malec and group.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 21):
NWA wants you and the rest of the outsiders to think that Mesaba, Pinnacle and Compass are all separate entities. While they indeed so on paper and structure, all the money flows back to the same place... NWAC.

Why is that such a bad thing? MQ is essentially the same story (though they merged all of the certificates except for SJU ATR flying a while ago), and they seem to do fine.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 20):
Compass is the replacement for Mesaba.

While that's partially true, Compass is also a DC-9-10 replacement. Bear in mind that NW quietly eliminated them from the fleet a few years ago without a replacement in that size group.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 21):
And for what? All for the cheapest costs to maximize the profits and bonusses at the top while at the same time forgetting that their running an airline that is in the service industry.

Isn't that the point of a business? And let's be honest, in what business don't executives try to maximize their take?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
While that's partially true, Compass is also a DC-9-10 replacement. Bear in mind that NW quietly eliminated them from the fleet a few years ago without a replacement in that size group.

I would believe that statement more if Northwest didn't already have the Airbus 319 on property. If they need a smaller aircraft, I think it would be much more economical to bring in the 318 rather than start a whole new carrier, complete with all the infrastructure that it requires.
Proud OOTSK member
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 24):
If they need a smaller aircraft, I think it would be much more economical to bring in the 318 rather than start a whole new carrier, complete with all the infrastructure that it requires.

A 318 would likely seat about 105 in a NW configuration. That's more like a D9S replacement.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 25):
A 318 would likely seat about 105 in a NW configuration. That's more like a D9S replacement.

But how do the operating econimics compare to a DC9-10?
Proud OOTSK member
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7798
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:52 am

I have heard they also signed the letter of intent this week for around 35 aircraft. They should announce their choice soon.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 26):
But how do the operating econimics compare to a DC9-10?

I would imagine they're terrible. A 318 is a shrink. The -10 was the original DC-9.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 28):
I would imagine they're terrible. A 318 is a shrink. The -10 was the original DC-9.

I am not so sure when you factor fuel, mx, and training. Plus all that cost of starting up a new carrier. It seems like another case of spending a dollar to save a dime. I have a hard time believing that Mesaba was THAT expensive to do business with.
Proud OOTSK member
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:06 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 29):

I am not so sure when you factor fuel, mx, and training. Plus all that cost of starting up a new carrier.

If we're talking about a fleet of 50-100 planes, which is the size generally discussed for Compass ultimately, the fixed costs are pretty low on a per-unit basis. I don't have fuel burn data in front of me, but I would imagine the 195 would be more efficient because the 318 has to carry a wing that is way too big for the airplane around.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
JetBlueGuy2006
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:38 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 21):
NWA wants you and the rest of the outsiders to think that Mesaba, Pinnacle and Compass are all separate entities. While they indeed so on paper and structure, all the money flows back to the same place... NWAC.

I understand that even though they are all seperate but still part of NWAC, I am just making the point that this specific thread is not about XJ, it is about Compass.
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:49 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 30):
but I would imagine the 195 would be more efficient because the 318 has to carry a wing that is way too big for the airplane around

OK, so add the 195 to the Northwest fleet. It is my understanding that the Avros were on the way out, leaving that aircraft size wide open. I think this decision will come back to haunt those who agreed to it. I don't see how you can save money by adding complexity and additional layers to your corporate structure. Of course, I could be wrong. I hope so. When I got started in aviation, Northwest was the company I aspired to. Now it seems I will be too old to apply by the time they get back into a growth mode.
Proud OOTSK member
 
nwafflyer
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:29 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:05 am

At least, lets get some of the facts right here - Pinnacle is not in bankruptcy, nor is it related to Mesaba - 2 totally separate NWAirlink carriers. For some reason, Pinnacle is surviving, while Mesaba is not - doesn't that say something about Mesaba management? And - compare the service on the C concourse in Detroit, with the A concourse in Memphis. A in Memphis is Pinnacle, C in Detroit is Mesaba.

How often in Detroit do you have late gate attendants? i.e., plane has arrived, all baggage unloaded, and still no jet bridge? I don't see this with Pinnacle in Memphis. Now, I don't go in and out of Minneapolis that often, and there are some good people there, so I suspect the gate situation at MSP beats DTW anyday.

To summarize though, let's ask the question: Why is Mesaba in bankruptcy, and Pinnacle is not?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:57 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 33):
Now, I don't go in and out of Minneapolis that often, and there are some good people there, so I suspect the gate situation at MSP beats DTW anyday.

MSP is fine about 95% of the time.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
KingAir200
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 1:37 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 27):
I have heard they also signed the letter of intent this week for around 35 aircraft. They should announce their choice soon.

I have heard that the choice is kind of a suprise. Not what everybody was expecting.

In reference to flying the 318, the NW payscale for the narrowbody Airbus fleet is set for the 320. As with the 319 and 320, the 318 would be flown by the same pilot group, so they would be paying at the 320 rate. It is much cheaper to have somebody else fly an airplane with the same seats, or have NW people fly it with their scale set to that airplane.

[Edited 2006-10-02 05:32:31]
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 35):
I have heard that the choice is kind of a suprise. Not what everybody was expecting.

What was everyone expecting? You have the ERJ-170 series which are superior airplanes in just about every respect versus the significant deposit for CR2s which would almost undoubtedly make a Bombardier order cheaper...
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
KingAir200
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 1:37 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 36):

What was everyone expecting? You have the ERJ-170 series which are superior airplanes in just about every respect versus the significant deposit for CR2s which would almost undoubtedly make a Bombardier order cheaper...

It is between those two, yes. That is all I'll say.

[Edited 2006-10-02 06:32:16]
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:49 pm

NWAflyer!!!! YOU DON'T GET IT DO YOU? The Mesaba bankruptcy is due to the fact that NWA shrank XJ by HALF. NWA missed 2 payments and stopped deliveries of the CRJ at the same time. Then they announced the parking of the avro fleet and the reduction of the A and B model saabs. That combined with the inept mgmt at XJ and its holdings company MAIR, drove XJ into the sham bankruptcy it finds itself in.

Pinnacle is not in bankruptcy because their fleet isn't shrinking by half. Pinnacle is not solvment because Trenary is the CEO everyone aspires to be. You are truely showing your naievity if you honestly believe Pinnacle is such a golden child company. They've got their loads of issues as well.

In summary one cannot compare the two airlines and come to the conclusion that the PNCL mgmt must be better. It's just not that simple and you fail to recognize who is really running the show here anyhow. Not Spanjers or Trenary, that's for sure.
The creation of Compass was to satisfy the NWA pilots. It is a clear compromise for scope. NWA pilots want to keep as many jobs as they can on their seniority list, rightfully so. But that seniority list is senior and costs a lot of money. SO, NWA decided to create a new airline. Well, that would siphon jobs away from NWA and send them to Compass. The compromise was to staff Compass with NWA furloughs and then they'd have recall rights to NWA. Now everyone is happy... WRONG. This is at the demise of XJ and possibly your golden child Pinnacle. Let's rob peter to pay Paul here... let's remove an airplne from Mesabas fleet so that Compass can start. What was that? Compass and Mesaba have nothing to do with each other? Oh yea... So in reality there is nothing Compass can do that Mesaba or Pinnacle cannot. Why create extra fat and spend unnecessary amounts of money on infastructure when there are several already in place? Because there is a long term plan for Compass and it is likely to be sold for profit. Eventually employees will be hosed over and unfortunately the customer won't notice or care, nor will NWA.

And as far as your constant rants on the XJ service in DTW. It is painful for a customer as well as the crews to find no gate agent or rampers when the plane is ready to be parked. But would you like to learn about WHY that is? And WHY that doesn't happen in MEM? I've read numerous posts on why perhaps you have such awful XJ service and for some reason you feel Pinnacle is the second coming to Singapore Air.

XJ staffing is as lean as it can possibly get. When there is a hiccup in the system, like a late departure or late inbound, it creates a ripple in the smooth operation that exists only on paper. Mesaba staffs the gate for a situation where X amount of gate agents are required to cover X gates and flights when everything happens as scheduled. We all know airlines never operate in a perfect world, unless you're Pinnacle according to you. What do you think happens when things go wrong? If there are no contingencies built into the staffing model, which there are not, you end up having flights waiting for agents. The same thing goes for the ramp. It's not the employees fault... they're attempting to do the best they can with the tools they are provided. If they are not provided tools, proper staffing, positive motivation, accountability, good leadership and realistic expectations you end up with the service you receive in DTW and what has been happening over the last year in MSP.

The other factor in this mess is the work ethic and the wages paid to these people. Would you be willing to do this back breaking work in sub zero temps, or in temps in excess of 100 degrees for hour after hour for $9/hr? Perhaps, and obviously many do but the first sign of winter or summer usually involves a mass exodus off the ramp. Now do this facing a 20% paycut... that's a nice motivation to go to work. Since these jobs are not career moves like a pilot, doctor or lawyer these people are more willing to throw the job away at the first sign of negativity. Therefore you have the incredible turn over, the incredible training curve and the lack of care for the job. This all translates into the service that is received by the crews and customer. Now, remove Mesaba from the ID and slap PInnacle on there. Do you think things will change? NO!! They get paid worse than Mesaba, get worse benefits and would be the same kind of worker applying for the Mesaba job as would be aplying for the PInnacle job. There won't be much difference.

Then why does the MEM operation run so smooth? It certainly isn't due to the sheer efforts and brilliance of a Mr. Phil Trenary. Most those rampers and agents work hard, as they do in MSP and DTW. The one thing that is key to the MEM operation is the bank system. The rampers and agents work the flights and are quite busy when the planes are on the ground. But when the push is done, there is nothing to do. Therefore when delays happen and ripples are created there is alot of flexibility in the system. The banks in MSP and DTW are so busy that there is an arrival bank arriving, at the same time a departure bank is departing. It doesn't take a rocket scienist to see what can hapen in the case of MSP or DTW! IF a plane is early in the arrival bank, the chances are its gate is occupied by a departing a/c. Even if that flight is ontime, the inbound still has to wait. That is the fault in the "system" not the fault of a Mesaba employee. This issue cannot happen in MEM because the arrival banks are timed so that there are few if any flights departing whilst the arrival bank is occuring.

Enough of my diatribe. Just wanted to attempt to educate you on how the system really works. Don't forget everything happens for a reason, even if it isn't a good one. PLease also don't forget who is really in control of the Airlinks... NWA!

Oh yea, since the relavance police are out - IMO I think NWA will split the order between Embraer and Bombardier. EMBs for Compass and Mainline and the CRJ for the Airlink operation. Why else would Mesaba have been hanging on to ONE CRJ? Especially since differences training is quick.


AZJ

[Edited 2006-10-02 11:06:48]
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 6118
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:14 pm

Good to see some of us old-timers are still hangin' around here AZJ, and we are still beating the same old, dead horse.

I've been echoing your beliefs too.

DTW & MSP are a whole different animal than MEM.

XJ is apparently the whipping boy of the NW family on A.net, same way that NW takes it compared to all other airlines.

We all know the real story behind why Mesaba is where it is today, and same reason for this whole Compass fiasco.

Time will tell where things go.

That said, I continue to be impressed with how the XJ crews continue to hold their heads high in front of the customer. To the average Joe, they would have no idea of the turmoil going on within the airline.
 
gregtx
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:36 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:17 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 35):
You have the ERJ-170 series which are superior airplanes in just about every respect

Superior in comfort...but not in economics. According to AVITAS, the edge still goes to Bombardier for both trip and operating cost.
 
xjramper
Posts: 2318
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:10 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 38):
That said, I continue to be impressed with how the XJ crews continue to hold their heads high in front of the customer. To the average Joe, they would have no idea of the turmoil going on within the airline.

I shall second that. I flew on XJ about two weeks ago and they were outstanding. The crews were joking with the pax and they were all upbeat and fresh. Hardly a sign that they were getting their asses handed to them by their parent.

XJR
Look ma' no hands!
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:54 am

I've still not heard and still want an explanation from one of you XJ cheerleaders about why NW's control over the airlink carriers is such a bad thing. It seems to work well for AA, after all. Why is there assumption that NW control is bad?

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 37):
The one thing that is key to the MEM operation is the bank system.



Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 37):
The banks in MSP and DTW are so busy that there is an arrival bank arriving, at the same time a departure bank is departing.

Why is it always DTW with problems, then? It's more complicated than XJ bashing; it's XJ in both places, but it's not just the intrinsic differences between the northern hubs and MEM.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 37):
let's remove an airplne from Mesabas fleet so that Compass can start. What was that? Compass and Mesaba have nothing to do with each other? Oh yea...

You're only looking at half the picture. NW wanted (and wants) to grow the 76-ish seat part of their fleet. ARJs do not provide a way to do that. A new fleet type is necessary.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Gregtx (Reply 39):
According to AVITAS, the edge still goes to Bombardier for both trip and operating cost.

The last numbers I saw gave Bombardier a pretty slight edge, and if they're looking for a solution for the entire 75-115 seat segment, the cost advantages of the 195 over the 318 surely outweigh the CR9/190 and CR7/170 differences.

[Edited 2006-10-02 20:05:29]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
gregtx
Posts: 210
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 8:36 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:31 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 42):
The last numbers I saw gave Bombardier a pretty slight edge, and if they're looking for a solution for the entire 75-115 seat segment, the cost advantages of the 195 over the 318 surely outweigh the CR9/190 and CR7/170 differences

4-9% is not usually considered slight (AVITAS numbers, not BBD's for the CR9)..but he EMB's carries significantly more baggage/cargo---so the point may be moot. At any rate, for the shortest hops, they are equal in cost. The 170 and CR7 run at about the same cost---one that is almost prohibitive CASM-wise if fuel trends up any further (I think the 70 seat market will untimately belong back to the props in ten years).

I doubt the 318 is even under consideration.

It would look like a slam dunk for the 170/195...but I have a feeling it could go another way.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5042
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 37):
The Mesaba bankruptcy is due to the fact that NWA shrank XJ by HALF.

Well then there should be less cost in operating the company.....

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 37):
the reduction of the A and B model saabs.

Last I knew that was XJ, XJ owns the Saabs or leases the, NW doesn't have anything to do with the Saabs its not on their books.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 37):
The compromise was to staff Compass with NWA furloughs and then they'd have recall rights to NWA.

Yes, but all the NW pilots are being recalled to mainline NW. Thus, Compass will have to do their own thing.
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:31 am

Burnsie - the B+ saabs are leased from NWA just as the avros and CRJs are. The only saabs XJ had control over were the A and B models. The A's were returned as their leases expired (over the last 5 years) and the Bs were returned to Pinnacle in the Ch 11 filing. Thus, leaving XJ with the 49 B+ saabs. Compass was designed to be staffed by NWA furloughees first, then folks off the street. Compass isn't ready to fly, so why would they recall into a dodo bird airline? As far as shrinking the company by half... actually it raises the costs. According to the company as XJ shrank by half, the costs that were fixed did not shrink porportionately. As the company shrinks, pilots are furloughed. Those that are left are the most senior ones, who are higher on the pay scales. Threfore, according to the company the average seniority goes up, therefore increasing labor costs. We all know however, labor costs are only a small part of the big picture.

Cubsrule - From NWAs standpoint not owning, yet controling their regional partners is a good thing. They know by controlling 100% of their destiny they can manipulate them into doing whatever they want. With NWA being able to at will, expand and contract the Airlink fleet they are in total control. This leads to the present situation where NWA wants its Airlink product to be provided at lower costs. Mesaba and Pinnacle have no alternatives but to comply. In order to comply they have to lower their costs so that they can charge NWA less and still make money. By NWA shrinking Mesabas fleet and forcing them into Ch11 they are able to maximize the cost control at Mesaba. Only it doesn't really work as well in real life. I ask one thing... how does one squeeze blood from a turnip? Labor at XJ is not the problem. XJ labor is rewarded with industry average pay. Industry average pay that does not afford one a lavish lifestyle. At best it is middle class and pay check to pay check. Now let's cut 20% and MORE. Can you see why the XJ employees are outraged? Can you imagine making $15K/yr and now being asked to give up 20% + ?? Again, labor is not the problem at XJ. Yes, XJ is in business to make money... as all businesses are. But at some point it isn't worth being is business if you cannot make money when you're already as lean as possible. The problem is that XJ CAN make money... it's just that they won't make as much therefore not providing the massive bonusses to the SLT. As for the operation, I'm still not sure why it's so hard to understand the differences between MSP/DTW and MEM? I thought I gave a thorough and clear explanation. And by the way... I see the whole picture. You say NWA wants 76 seat planes. yes, the avros are not 76 seaters, however they could be with reconfiguration. Not to mention the fact that you don't have to start a whole new company everytime you want to introduce a new fleet type. Once again, Compass isn't going to do anything that Mesaba, Pinnacle or any other airline could do for NWA. I've viewed this train wreck from the inside and out since it began sir, so I think I have much to stand on with my assertions and observations.


AZJ
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:11 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 45):
I'm still not sure why it's so hard to understand the differences between MSP/DTW and MEM? I thought I gave a thorough and clear explanation.

The difference in which I'm interested is the one between MSP and DTW which has nothing to do with scheduling or company doing the handling.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 45):
And by the way... I see the whole picture. You say NWA wants 76 seat planes. yes, the avros are not 76 seaters, however they could be with reconfiguration.

No, what I said was that NW wants to grow the segment of their fleet covered by ARJs and DC-9-10s (formerly) beyond what either fleet type can offer. I mean, how are we going see to growth with either of those fleet types? Old ZW 146s? There's got to be a new fleet type, and as the bigger variants of this fleet type will be operated by mainline per the recent scope relief, it makes more sense for the smaller variants to be operated by a wholly owned subsidiary, right?

For the record, I think the whole situation with XJ really sucks for pretty much everyone involved. That's not my point here. But your whole "management is out to screw everyone" mentality really clouds your vision on the Compass issue.

[Edited 2006-10-02 23:37:01]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:35 am

Re: MSP and DTW - as of late there isn't much difference betwen the two. Both operations are short staffed and attract the same type of worker. MSP has traditionally been the better of the two, but the MSP operation has gone down hill. And MEM is in a category all in itself. It all boils down to the same stuff I mentioned before.

Re: Compass - again, there isn't anything Compass can do that XJ or Pinnacle can't do. Compass is going to be another Airlink which will be bound by the same scope. I realize what NWA wants to do, but why can't they do it with Pinnacle or Mesaba? Why do they have to destroy a long serving company to create another? Compass is not going to be a cheaper operation than Mesaba, there's no way. As far as the fleet goes, it's all speculation at this point. You make your point assuming NWA will buy EMB airplanes for mainline and Compass. NWA could easily order CRJs for the Airlinks and EMBs for mainline. Compass is not required for NWA to acheive fleet rationalization and growth. Compass is a tool and a threat, it's called WHIPSAW.

My vision is not clouded as you assert oh wise one of many years. It's actually quite clear. Why don't you walk a mile in my shoes or any of my colleagues at Pinnacle and NWA. Only then can you tell me what my vision looks like. See, I have the luxury or misfortune, to see this from the inside and out, unlike you sir.

AZJ
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11517
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 47):
Why don't you walk a mile in my shoes or any of my colleagues at Pinnacle and NWA. Only then can you tell me what my vision looks like. See, I have the luxury or misfortune, to see this from the inside and out, unlike you sir.

Why do you assume that I don't know what's going on becuase I'm not an NWA employee?

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 47):
You make your point assuming NWA will buy EMB airplanes for mainline and Compass.

Yes, and if so I would continue to argue that it makes more sense to have a wholly-owned subsidiary fly them if mainline is flying other airplanes in the family.

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 47):
NWA could easily order CRJs for the Airlinks and EMBs for mainline.

In that case, wouldn't it make the most sense for 9E to fly the CR7s? (Actually, they'll be -705s, but it makes no difference.) XJ is out of the flying either way (since this is all about XJ).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
sophiesdad
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:29 am

RE: Northwest Gets Dot Approval To Launch Compass

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 32):

Yes, lets get the facts correct. XJ handles the airlink gates in DTW and MSP and a third party vendor handles them in MEM. Pinnacle has never had the responsibility or expense of handling gates at ANY hub or focus city. Lets see, could that mean lower cost to 9E. Me thinks it does.
Another FACT is XJ has had their revenue stream cut by over 50pct as NW cut out the 69 seat ARJ, signed a contract to XJ for 15 CRJ-200 but XJ has one. NWA renigged on thirteen and took one back which is now the fleet for Compass. Can you imagine the cost to XJ, based on NWA promises, to start an entire flt department for one airplane and have to continue to operate for one plane. Here are some more facts. 9E lost 15 0f approc 135 CRJs of which many were 44 seat config. Most have been reconfig to 50 seats. Since the contract pays by the seat, 9E has lost no capacity. XJ has lost 69seat AVRO and 20 plus SAAB with one CRJ net loss, thousands of rev seats every week.
There are a lot of logical reasons for your wait for JETBridges, but if you think you have problems now, lets hear your comments if 1500 experienced ramp and gate agents are no longer there for your flights in a couple of weeks.

I hope NWA goes for the EMB not the CRJ but what ever they take I think we can be sure of a change in the wind for Airlink Carriers everywhere. The are going to be protecting themselves from the screwing they are taking by the Mainline Biggies. I wont be a bit surprised to see a headline in USA Today
AIRLINKS MERGE, HOSTILE TAKEOVERS OF NWA, DELTA, UNITED, AMERICAN ARE PROPOSED. Wouldn't be the first time the little guys got fed up and ate the boss.

[Edited 2006-10-03 01:15:52]