dc10rules
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Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:40 am

I was on UA flight 1680 CUN-ORD on 9/27 listening to channel 9 of course and at the hold short line we contacted CUN tower and were told to "line up and wait". Is that common? I know protocol is "taxi into pos and hold rwy 12" or simply "taxi and hold rwy 12".

Just curious. This was my first trip outside the US.

Cheers all and fly safe!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Dc10rules (Thread starter):
line up and wait".

Same stuff: Position and Hold. . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
mcdu
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:01 am

First thanks for riding with us at UA and glad to hear you enjoy CH9. To answer your question, what you heard was how the rest of the world communicates "position and hold" Outside of the US the world operates under ICAO phraseology and "line up and wait" is standard international workding. If you were at LHR you might hear the controller to tell the pilots to "after the departing Virgin 747, line up and wait 27L" This put the onus on the pilots to maintain separation, and a clearance you would never get in the states.

One other ICAO item is the wording to "taxi to the holding point 27R". This sound s close enough to "taxi into position and hold" for some US ears that there have been runway incursions.

Again thanks for riding with UA and hope to have you back with us in the future.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:03 am

"Line up and wait" I'd say is much more frequently used worldwide then "position and hold" which is more US slang.

You'll find "Line up and wait" used in Europe, Asia, Latin America etc... I actualy have an ICAO ATC terminology book with "line up and wait" in it, with no reference to the US version.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
dc10rules
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:40 am

Great info everyone. Thank you! And Mcdu I always fly UA and have nothing but good things to say, but thats for another forum I guess!

Cheers
 
Cessna057
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 7:52 am

I few to TTN today and I got a "Line up and wait".

As said, it is also much more common worldwide

Hope this helped!
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
"Line up and wait" I'd say is much more frequently used worldwide then "position and hold" which is more US slang.

As an air traffic controller that has worked in the US and abroad, I can tell you that "Line up and wait" is the official ICAO terminology and "taxi into position and hold" is official terminology from the FAAO 7110.65, which is the US FAA Air Traffic Control book. It's not slang, it's different terminology for different governing agencies for aviation.
 
VEEREF
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 10:22 am

When I was operating into Canada back in the day, the controllers in London (YXU) would refer to the hold short line as "The button". Never heard it anywhere else though.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
dab920
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:11 pm

Surely you should realise that everything is done differently in the US to the rest of the world. One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.
 
mcdu
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:26 pm

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
Surely you should realise that everything is done differently in the US to the rest of the world. One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.

Maybe it was because we started first with Orville and Wilbur and the rest of the world made up their own "new" rules?  Smile
 
Gary2880
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 5:37 pm

wasn't aware that Orville and Wilbur were told by atc to position and hold before the first flight  Smile

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
or done differently for the sake of being different.

awkward for the sake of awkward i say.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Sun Oct 01, 2006 6:15 pm

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
You'll find "Line up and wait" used in Europe, Asia, Latin America etc... I actualy have an ICAO ATC terminology book with "line up and wait" in it, with no reference to the US version.



Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 6):

As an air traffic controller that has worked in the US and abroad, I can tell you that "Line up and wait" is the official ICAO terminology and "taxi into position and hold" is official terminology from the FAAO 7110.65, which is the US FAA Air Traffic Control book. It's not slang, it's different terminology for different governing agencies for aviation.  checkmark 

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different.

"Line up and wait" was adopted after an incident quite a few years ago where a Japan Air aircraft at Heathrow was instructed to line up and hold, to which the captain replied "Line up and roll."  redflag   eek 

"Line up and wait was considered less ambiguous and more understandable, whatever national tongue aircrew had, and was thus adopted by ICAO.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
LHR777
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:58 am

So, why does the US not adopt ICAO standards?

Surely that JAL Captain that understood 'line-up and hold' as 'line-up and roll' could also fly to the USA, with their use of 'taxi into position and hold' being misunderstood as 'taxi into position and roll'? Wouldn't the global standard use of 'Line-up and wait' make more sense?

It just seems to make more sense to adopt the same global standard for ATC, for safety reasons. It's better to avoid ambiguity, don't you think?
 
VEEREF
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.

I operate all over the world. Believe me, things being done a little differently is most certainly not limited to the US.

When flying to someplace new, we are usually briefed on differences in regulations and terminology for a certain destination. Certainly ICAO terminology is the most widely used, but I always seem to run into differences no matter where I go.

Bottom line- If something doesn't quite make sense, STOP the aircraft and ASK!
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
trojanAE
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.



Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 10):
awkward for the sake of awkward i say.

Like the left hand drive in Great Britain, right?  Yeah sure Please, that's just a stupid, unnecessarily provoking off-topic comment.
It's just a differing phraseology used by different governing agencies, as someone has already pointed out. There is nothing wrong with either phraseology and it's great that the ICAO standard is less ambiguous. But I believe any pilot undergoing training should familiarise him/her self with international phraseologies used in different countries, and realize that perhaps FAA phrases are different and that there is no such thing as "taxi into position and roll". Sounds like the pilot was simply unfamiliar with standard ATC terms. Such as, ATC never uses the term "take-off" until actual take-off clearance is being given, a rule implemented after the Teneriffe disaster in 1977. So proper ATC communications would never tell you to "roll", they would tell you "Wind xx at xxx, XYZ airline XXX, clear for takeoff, RWY 2L." A properly trained pilot would never make this mistake.
"My soul is in the sky." -William Shakespeare
 
Jpax
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 10):
wasn't aware that Orville and Wilbur were told by atc to position and hold before the first flight

"Wright 1903 position and hold on the track"

"In the prone position and holding on in case I crash again, 1903"

...they sure were  

EDIT: Hard to believe that was only 103 years ago...the way we have advanced is nothing short of spectacular.

[Edited 2006-10-01 20:25:56]
 
TransIsland
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 9):
Maybe it was because we started first with Orville and Wilbur and the rest of the world made up their own "new" rules?

Yeah, I clearly remember how ATC (I was working the shift) told the Wright flyer to "taxi into position and hold."  old 
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
beech19
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting LHR777 (Reply 12):
So, why does the US not adopt ICAO standards?

Not to step on anyones toes... (just playing devils advocate for a momment) Knowing that airplanes and human flight started here in the US (and more than likely ATC's also because of that fact) technically speaking wouldn't the ICAO standards be the ones rebelling against the "norm" and should change back?  duck 

DISCLAIMER: That was a joke... everyone relax.

Quoting Dab920 (Reply 8):
One thing I would like to know, is whether things are done differently because of a real belief it is a better way, or done differently for the sake of being different. From the outside looking in, it sure seems like that sometimes.

Well... i think i'd be more curious to find out which actually came first "taxi into posistion and hold" or "Line up and wait" and then we can discuss whether the US does things to be different or if the other country's do.  Wink

That being said i beleive the whole foundation of the US was started because we didn't like how the British were doing it (that is NOT a slam on them at all). Being from Boston i know the history quite well. Anyone want some soggy tea?

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 10):
awkward for the sake of awkward i say.

hey! I resemble that remark!  Wink

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 13):
Bottom line- If something doesn't quite make sense, STOP the aircraft and ASK!

Any pilot (myself included) with the lack of THAT common logic should have there certs stripped of them at once!

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 16):
Yeah, I clearly remember how ATC (I was working the shift) told the Wright flyer to "taxi into position and hold."

My father has a picture of his grand father as a very young child standing next to the flyer before its first flight. Its amazing...

Quoting Jpax (Reply 15):
Hard to believe that was only 103 years ago...the way we have advanced is nothing short of spectacular.

Agreed... its dumbfounding!
KPAE via KBVY
 
traineepilot
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:18 am

I think its depends on controller. Myself, I have been instructed to line-up and wait runway 32 and also, taxi to position and hold.

Means the same thing.
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s:
"Line up and wait" was adopted after an incident quite a few years ago where a Japan Air aircraft at Heathrow was instructed to line up and hold, to which the captain replied "Line up and roll."

Are you sure the Japanese pilot said roll, because they also say fright which means flight in the broken english they speak?
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
antiuser
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:33 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 9):
Maybe it was because we started first with Orville and Wilbur and the rest of the world made up their own "new" rules?



Quoting Beech19 (Reply 17):
Knowing that airplanes and human flight started here in the US

The development of heavier-than-air flying machines was almost parallel in the US and Europe - While Orville and Wilbur Wright have to their credit the first documented flight in a heavier-than-air machine, Alberto Santos-Dumont (a Brazilian residing in Paris) developed an aircraft that took off from its own power shortly after that, and his subsequent designs were made available for the general public and enjoyed great popularity even in the US, through the Popular Mechanics magazine.

That said, ATC only came about 2 decades later, and radio towers wouldn't be around until the 1930s, when aviation technology was well distributed over the world.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
beech19
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 20):

Thanks for that information.

We still got off the ground first! HA HA! j/k  Wink
KPAE via KBVY
 
wjcandee
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:58 am

Many are too young to remember, but I believe that the change in the terminology came post-Tenerife, where a departing KLM 747 hit a Pan Am 747. At that time, the nomenclature was "Clear into position" and "Clear for takeoff." The FAA realized that using "clear" on both was confusing, and so it became "Taxi" rather than "clear" and the "and hold" was added.
 
Dreamflight767
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:10 am

Hi Crew:

Not to get too technical, but "Taxi into position and hold" is no longer used. The proper phraseology now is simply "Position and hold." So it would be read as "XYZ123, position and hold (RWY)."

This was changed not too long ago, if I recall, in an attempt to avoid and reduce confusion and/or runway incursions.
 
flymatt2bermud
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 2):
If you were at LHR you might hear the controller to tell the pilots to "after the departing Virgin 747, line up and wait 27L" This put the onus on the pilots to maintain separation, and a clearance you would never get in the states.

Actually, years ago this phraseology was practised in the U.S. as well (though ATC used "hold" instead of "wait" or they could tell you "XXXX behind the arriving AMERICAN Seven Three Seven on final, line up and hold Runway Two Seven Left" I believe this was written out about 20 years ago when the FAA made some major changes to terminology and separation standards.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
 
bond007
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:07 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 3):
You'll find "Line up and wait" used in Europe, Asia, Latin America etc... I actualy have an ICAO ATC terminology book with "line up and wait" in it, with no reference to the US version.

Well...it was "line up and hold" until fairly recently (as has been mentioned). When I was flying in Europe 12 years ago, I never heard "line up and wait".

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 13):
Certainly ICAO terminology is the most widely used, but I always seem to run into differences no matter where I go.

Yes, but unfortunately if you are a pilot in US and you fly around the world, you soon realize that the US FARs are FAR from being close to ICAO standards, whereas many other countries are very similar. If you look at any US pilot forums, take note of how many questions there are regarding medicals, pilot age, SIC/PIC qualifications etc. etc. etc.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting Dreamflight767 (Reply 23):
Not to get too technical, but "Taxi into position and hold" is no longer used. The proper phraseology now is simply "Position and hold." So it would be read as "XYZ123, position and hold (RWY)."

This was changed not too long ago, if I recall, in an attempt to avoid and reduce confusion and/or runway incursions.

I use whatever makes sense........they have to taxi to the position and hold spot correct? So, I will tell them taxi into position and hold until they fire me just bcuzz I am old and like the sound of it! Oh, reduce confusion, how?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
bond007
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 26):
I use whatever makes sense........

...to you
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
Quoting Iahflyr (Reply 26):
I use whatever makes sense........

...to you

Any fyi.......the handbook allows a controller to use phrases that allow for best chance to get the point across!

And that doesn't to you? We only used it in the USA for more than oh 30 years.

Hey Bond, James Bond, what makes sense to you?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
bond007
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 28):
Any fyi.......the handbook allows a controller to use phrases that allow for best chance to get the point across!

Any fyi ....only after you use the correct phraseology first.

From 7110.65:

"Controllers may, after first using the prescribed
phraseology for a specific procedure, rephrase the
message to ensure the content is understood. Good
judgment shall be exercised when using nonstandard
phraseology."


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Alias1024
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:03 pm

Personally I think the FAA should adopt "Line up and wait" as the official terminology. I don't like that two instructions meaning almost completely opposite things both contain the word "hold": "position and hold" and "hold short". They can sound too similar on a congested frequency when everyone's radio calls are getting stepped on.

A pilot not paying too much attention and anticipating an instruction to "position and hold" could hear "hold" in a "hold short" instruction and think they heard "position and hold". I know it sounds stupid, but I actually had one of my commercial students do this. I had to stomp on the brakes to prevent a runway incursion.

I also witnessed a runway incursion involving a student pilot on a solo, which probably could have been avoided if "line up and wait" was used. Controller told student to "hold short". Student read back "position and hold". Very busy controller didn't catch it. I bet he would have caught it if the student had read back "line up and wait" after being told to "hold short".
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:16 pm

Some say: "Behind the Landing (a/c model here) line up and wait behind". I was told the 'wait' and 'hold' are now emphisized somewhat due to the Teneriffe accident a while back
 
Interpaul
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:51 pm

I'm sure I've heard something like "BEHIND the departing 737, line up and wait runway 33 BEHIND." Where they repeat the "behind" at the end of the sentence.
At least here in Germany. Didn't hear it a couple of years ago, so maybe that's new.

Jan
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:44 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 29):
Good
judgment shall be exercised when using nonstandard
phraseology

There ya have it....it is my good judgement!

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 29):
Any fyi ....only after you use the correct phraseology first.

Damn not more phraseology police......I'll have you know Jimbo, some pilots who routinely fly in the Houston area actually commend us for some things they get told, always with correct phraseology, always with good judgement! Guess that good judgement is workin still at this ole age!  Smile Looks like with some though we might have to read the book each time before issuing a clearance and then correct each and every incorrect readback, yeah that will sure clog up the radio even more! Sure hope this isn't taken seriously by some.  crossfingers 
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Findigenous
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:05 pm

This "good judgement" crap does not work very well when you have a setting where there are many pilots in the frequency that do not speak english as their first language. The world needs one aviation language, English, and there are more reasons for using correct phraseology than first merets the eye. First and obvious is the clarity and therefore safety, (part of safety issue is a person's short-term memory which can hold only so many things at one time and when phraseology is standardised talking on the radio does not use up working memory as much), also frequency congestion issues to name a couple...
 
bond007
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:37 pm

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 31):
Some say: "Behind the Landing (a/c model here) line up and wait behind". I was told the 'wait' and 'hold' are now emphisized somewhat due to the Teneriffe accident a while back



Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 31):
I'm sure I've heard something like "BEHIND the departing 737, line up and wait runway 33 BEHIND." Where they repeat the "behind" at the end of the sentence.

In the USA, the 'behind the landing....' phraseology is mentioned specifically as NOT to be used.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 33):
Sure hope this isn't taken seriously by some.

It wasn't  Wink

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
mcdu
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 25):
Well...it was "line up and hold" until fairly recently (as has been mentioned). When I was flying in Europe 12 years ago, I never heard "line up and wait".

Jimbo,

Things change and this is one of them. ICAO controllers now say, "line up and wait". What were you flying to Europe? I was on the 767, 12 years ago flying Europe and Asia with our RTW service. Had some really good TDY assignments to HKG to support that operation until they put the -400 on it. Hated to see the RTW flight stop as it was some challenging flying.
 
bond007
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 36):
Things change and this is one of them. ICAO controllers now say, "line up and wait". What were you flying to Europe?

Oh yes, I realize it changed. In the early nineties I was flying a lot of GA stuff, and King Airs around Europe (no airline flying)...now I'm based in the USA. I left Europe in 94 and I believe it was still "line up and hold" until then.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:34 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 35):
It wasn't

Whew, that is good, made my day, oh thats another movie!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Gary2880
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting TrojanAE (Reply 14):
Please, that's just a stupid, unnecessarily provoking off-topic comment.

*checks rest of thread* seems you are the only one that has been unnecessarily provoked.

didn't realize people from Lithuania were so anal retentive Big grin

i would suggest that my stupid unnecessary remark is less stupid and unnecessary than the unnecessarily stupid reply to my unnecessarily stupid remark?


micheal winner stylee calm down dear, its only a forum Wink
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
beech19
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 39):
i would suggest that my stupid unnecessary remark is less stupid and unnecessary than the unnecessarily stupid reply to my unnecessarily stupid remark?

Maybe its cause i'm exhausted... but thats the funniest thing heard all day!  bigthumbsup 
KPAE via KBVY
 
IAHFLYR
Posts: 3941
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:48 pm

Quoting TrojanAE (Reply 14):
ATC never uses the term "take-off" until actual take-off clearance is being given, a rule implemented after the Teneriffe disaster in 1977. So proper ATC communications would never tell you to "roll", they would tell you "Wind xx at xxx, XYZ airline XXX, clear for takeoff, RWY 2L." A properly trained pilot would never make this mistake.

A very bold assumption....."never"! mmm just like using the term "land". ATC is not supposed to use the term unless cleared for take-off, cleared to land" but you'd be surprised how often it slips out on a circling approach clearance, "cleared RNAV Runway 22, circle to LAND, Runway 4"......the land shouldn't be said but often is, so be alert.

Properly trained pilots.....toss alot of different groups in there not just pilots.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Leezyjet
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:20 pm

This is also along the lines of being cleared to land in the US when there could be several aircraft on final ahead of you. That surprised me. Everywhere else I have flown, you are normally only cleared to land once the runway is clear of any landing (or departing) a/c ahead of you.

I have only once been cleared to land with the runway still occupied, and that was when a PA38 missed the turn off in the middle of the runway and had to taxi to the end to turn off, and I received "with the a/c still on the runway in sight, cleared to land at own discretion" which is basically putting the onus back on me as the pilot, but as I was only in a C152, and it was a very long runway for that a/c type, then there wasn't an issue with landing with them still on the runway.

"Behind the landing XXX line up and wait behind" or "behind the XX 737 line up and wait behind" are used commonly, so is "after the departing XX XXX line up and wait".

I've also once had "behind the PA38 line up and wait in turn" meaning that I could enter the runway and line up behind the PA38, but had to wait for my take off clearance before I could go.

It is when you are in non-english first language countries that things get dangerous when they are speaking in their native language on the radio. That was one of the reasons why that accident happened at CDG when the SH360 Captain got killed a few years back.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
BigOrange
Posts: 2291
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 2:20 am

RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 35):
In the USA, the 'behind the landing....' phraseology is mentioned specifically as NOT to be used.

But they use the phrase "after the landing". I hear that all the time at LGA when they are on single runway ops.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 42):
"behind the PA38 line up and wait in turn"

Here in ARN, In sequence line up and wait behind, is commonly used when a line of aircraft is waiting to depart on a departures only runway.
 
10mid
Posts: 188
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 5:15 am

RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:55 pm

I've heard "Position and Wait" in Canada.

I've heard both "Position & Hold" and "Line Up and Wait" in Mexico.
 
Sabenaboy
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2001 5:31 pm

RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:05 am

It doesn't make sense that the word "hold" is used in both these instructions:

a: "taxi into position and hold"
b: "hold short of..."

MARK MY WORDS:
Sooner or later there's going to be a fatal accident, because someone misunderstood the "hold short" instruction thinking he was cleared to enter the runway in use.

It could be tomorrow or in 20 years time, but it will happen! (Murphy told me so!)

Therefore I would strongly suggest to change the phraseology for instruction a or b. Using "hold" in both is stupid.

I'll be back here reminding you guys of what I said here, the day that such an accident will happen. It will be a sad day when I'll have to say: "I said so!"
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
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RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 46):
It doesn't make sense that the word "hold" is used in both these instructions:

That's one of the reasons it was changed to "wait".


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ATCGOD
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting Sabenaboy (Reply 46):
It doesn't make sense that the word "hold" is used in both these instructions:

a: "taxi into position and hold"
b: "hold short of..."

I guess I don't understand where the miscommunication could be. If you just gave the command to "taxi into position" without the hold part, I think you'd have more pilots thinking well, he didn't say I couldn't take off! Common sense in my opinion, but there are a bunch of people out there with no common sense.
 
mcdu
Posts: 895
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:23 am

RE: Interesting ATC Clearance "line Up & Wait"

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:24 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 37):
Oh yes, I realize it changed. In the early nineties I was flying a lot of GA stuff, and King Airs around Europe (no airline flying)...now I'm based in the USA. I left Europe in 94 and I believe it was still "line up and hold" until then.

Jimbo

Interesting flying. Did you do any crossings with the GA aircraft? I have tremendous amount of respect for those that do that flying. I was uncomfortable with a pair of 4060's attached to the wings and could not imagine doing it in a single recip or a recip twin. Tubine twin maybe.