DIA
Topic Author
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:23 am

Never knew this had happened...and don't know how often.

I was filing through some classic photos in the database and saw that this particular A^A 707-123 went from having the antennae to "not."

Anybody have an inside story as to how often this happened with 707s and for what reason?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Bob Garrard



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank C. Duarte Jr.

Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:58 am

Aircraft with the antenna were equipped for the CRAF (Civil Reserve Air Fleet) for the Department of Defense program. United's 720-022's, and American's 720-023's were the first aircraft built without the CRAF antenna. American's 707-123B's were ordered without them also (as shown in the above photograph), not to be confused with the 707-123's that were converted to Fan Jet "B" types after delivery that had the CRAF tail. TWA's 707-131B's were ordered without them also, but the original non fan 131's which TWA kept for years and never converted to JT-3D's had the antenna's. All Intercontinental 707's were delivered with the antenna. All the original non fan jet (water wagon) 707-100's were delivered with the antenna's, including the Qantas short bodied -138's, the 139's built for Cubana and leased to Western, and the 121's for Pan Am, the 123's for American, 124's for Continental, and the 131's for TWA. Only American and TWA ordered additional 100's, the B type, with Fan Jets, and these came without the antennas. Braniff's 227's had the CRAF antenna, as did the 720's for Eastern 025's, Western 047B's, Northwest 051B's, Aer Lingus 048's, Braniff 027's, Continental 024B's, and PNA 061's.
 
ehho
Posts: 769
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:26 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 1):
including the Qantas short bodied -138's, the 139's built for Cubana

Thanks for the great oversight. Additionally, why install the CRAF-necessitated antenna on planes destined for foreign carriers?
"Get your facts first. Then you may distort them as much as you please" -- Mark Twain
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:19 am

I believe that the CRAF antennas were used for a type of international communications on over water flights. Therefore, they were standard equipment on aircraft sold to international carriers. United, American, and TWA apparently didn't think it was necessary to equip aircraft being used for domestic flights only with the antenna.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:24 am

The antenna was the HF antenna. HF was required for most overwater international operations when the 707 was introduced.

The 747 Classic has the same antenna but it's located at each wingtip extending back towards the tail.
Fly fast, live slow
 
ShowerOfSparks
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 9:22 pm

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting EHHO (Reply 2):
Thanks for the great oversight. Additionally, why install the CRAF-necessitated antenna on planes destined for foreign carriers?

It's nothing to do with CRAF. It is merely the HF radio antenna.
HF radio is not always needed, depends on the planned operations for the aircraft. Domestic ops in the USA will most likely not need it. International operations will.
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:46 am

Hi!

Well if infact international operations needed HF antenna can anyone explain me this photo taken in Hong-Kong-Kai Tak of a 707-131B???
Regards


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lee Cheng

CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:51 am

Except for the SFO-HNL-GUM-OKA, they would have been able to use VHF. But trust me, you need would have needed HF to fly the NOPAC and to HNL.
Fly fast, live slow
 
C133
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:34 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:00 am

I flew the AAL 707s in both front seats during the sixties and seventies, and this is my recollection of the antenna issue. I think all the 123s were delivered with the HF antenna, and the 720s never had them, since they were built as domestic airplanes from day one. American never flew the 123s overwater since they had no international routes in those days, and the fleet didn't have HF radios installed. Boeing built the airplanes with HF antennas because that was how they were designed. It wasn't an option.

In the last days of the 707, as they were being retired to the boneyards (and the 720 went first), a deal was struck with the Air Force to provide engines and vertical stabilizers from them for re-equipping KC-135s, which needed HF antennas. I think that some 123s still operational with the airline had the original vertical stabilizer replaced with 720 stabilizers so that the Air Force could have the HF antennas. Hence the pictures above of N574 both with, and without, an antenna. It's possible that the antennas were removed from the 123s and they were reskinned, but a swap of the stabilizers makes more sense to me. I could be wrong, but this is how I remember it.

To further confuse the issue, some 720s wound up flying for foreign airlines after retirement from AAL and UA, and pictures can be found in the database of them sporting HF antennas. There seems to have been a great deal of stabilizer swapping, depending on the need of the operator.
Fine: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: Fine for doing well.
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1555
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:27 am

I recall reading that the antennae was originally designed for use for some defense communication system. After the gov't abandoned the system (I don't think it was ever actually used) Boeing stopped installing them.
That is just what I recall reading

Whatever the purpose, I loved that antennae! It made the 707 look like a rocket. A very 50's design which Boeing has never been able to recapture!
 
RyanAFAMSP
Posts: 144
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:27 am

Gosh that TWA 707 at HKG is such a stumper!

It has to be a -131B, because of the short ventral fin. The non-fan -331s all had the long ventral fin, and the -331Bs all had no ventral fin. I was thinking that maybe the photo was mis-labeled as far as aircraft type goes (as we cannot get a positive ID on the reg #, and a -300B could, in a rare circumstance, fly with a removed HF probe - ie after a bird strike).

Are we sure the photo isn't mis-labeled, and actually not at HKG? The only other way a 707-131B would have been there was if TW had a -100 doing the round-the-world trips then, and connecting with -300s in Europe and in Hong Kong. The gist of this convo is that they couldn't do the transpacs without the HF radios, and that there was no other place to install the HF probe.

Does anyone know if the ferried a -100 over there to do inter-asia flying?

Was this airplane being sold or wetleased to someone in Asia, ie not flying a revenue TW flight?

Lets get to the bottom of this.
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:20 pm

Hi!

Well the Boeing 720B had the option to install additional HF antenna on the tip of the right wing. Take a look to these two photos of Ethiopian Airlines B720B's! EL AL also had their B720's with additional antenna.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eduard Marmet
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Frank Schaefer



On the other hand myquestion would be if there was any chance that this TW 707-100 could carry a "portable" HF antenna?
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Gr8Circle
Posts: 2387
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:44 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:18 am

AI B707's had the antenna  smile 


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Yrjö Mäkelä

 
User avatar
jetjack74
Posts: 6585
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 6:35 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 11):
Well the Boeing 720B had the option to install additional HF antenna on the tip of the right wing. Take a look to these two photos of Ethiopian Airlines B720B's! EL AL also had their B720's with additional antenna.

ET's 707's were equiped with these because of the longer flights over the less-populated, fewr freq'd ranges over Africa. ET's 720B's were built with these direct from the factory, and the 2nd hand ex-Continental 720's they picked up were retrofitted. LY had them on their 720's becuase they often had to deviate around the airspace of countries that denied them overfly authorisation.

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 12):
AI B707's had the antenna

The 707-300/400 aircraft were the first to be fitted the an additional HF antenne in the wing because they were the first, truly Intercontinental version of the 707. When the 707-300B/C's were built, these extra wingtip antennes were incorporated elsewhere on the fuselage.

Quoting DIA (Thread starter):
was filing through some classic photos in the database and saw that this particular A^A 707-123 went from having the antennae to "not."

Anybody have an inside story as to how often this happened with 707s and for what reason?

Now, some of the AA 707-123B's had these disparity for one reason. AA had some of the -123's equiped for Transcon(lower 48 only), non-overwater ops while others were. These HF equiped 707-100's were for use to HNL from the west coast, and other routes when the possiblity of flying over other remote area's. Turns out, they weren't really need for flying to Hawaii and other places. But back then, radio communication was somewhat untested with the 707 aircraft.
Made from jets!
 
C133
Posts: 205
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:34 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 13):
Now, some of the AA 707-123B's had these disparity for one reason. AA had some of the -123's equipped for Transcon(lower 48 only), non-overwater ops while others were. These HF equipped 707-100's were for use to HNL from the west coast, and other routes when the possibility of flying over other remote area's. Turns out, they weren't really need for flying to Hawaii and other places. But back then, radio communication was somewhat untested with the 707 aircraft.

Sorry, but this just isn't true. American didn't fly from the West Coast to Hawaii until after deregulation in 1978, and never flew -123s to the islands. International authority was granted in 1970 for American to fly from 6 eastern and mid-west cities to the South Pacific via Hawaii, but this was flown with 323s--the 123 didn't have the necessary range. Most, if not all 123s were built with the HF probe antenna (and that's all it was) but never had HF radios installed since they didn't fly routes outside of VHF radio coverage. HF was not required in the Caribbean.

The 707 was designed and built along time ago, yes, but it was fully capable of, and tested and operated with, all required radio equipment of the period including HF. American, however, never needed or installed HF radios in the 100 series airplanes.
Fine: Tax for doing wrong. Tax: Fine for doing well.
 
CV990
Posts: 4224
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 3:49 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:57 am

Hi!

I don't know that if this helps but I remember late in the 70's when TAP had a contract to make great inspections to FEDEX 727's that one day one ex: Evergreen 727-100 arrived to LIS to be retrofitted to FEDEX and it had a wire antenna comming from one of the side windows ( emergency one ) to the tail. I think this was because the plane had to fly transatlantic and didn't have HF antenna then. Can I assume that maybe this TW 707-100 could have something similar to that???
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
taxpilot
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 8:29 am

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:35 am

The USAF KC-135s (from the oldest to the newest) that I flew all had HF radios. Many had the vertical fin probe antenna, but we also had them with no probe antenna. The ones without the probe, had a wire from the forward top of the fuselage to the top of the vertical fin. I never heard an explanation of why the difference.
 
duke
Posts: 1167
Joined: Tue Sep 21, 1999 9:52 pm

RE: 707 Loses Its Classic Tail

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:25 pm

I also read that some AA 707-123Bs lost the antenna when they were switched with 720-023B tails. But I thought this was done because some second hand 720 customers wanted the complete AA 720s with the antenna. Maybe this is reconcileable with the above USAF story.

I don't think AA ordered any -123Bs without the antenna. There may be more, but I know of only 3 instances of 707s/720s being delivered without it, as follows:

-United (720 launch customer)'s 29 720-022s

-American's 10 720-023 turbojets (later converted to -023Bs)

This actually may have been the original plan to have no antenna on 720s, but then some customers specified the antenna, and it seems to have become standard for the type.

-TWA's 707-131Bs (the whole run except for one which did get the antenna, don't know why).