CHIFLYGUY
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 pm

AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:52 am

I'm an AA fan and wanted to start a thread to discuss the future of this great airline.

Strengths:
- Only legacy carrier to never have filed bankruptcy. This cannot be underestimated.
- Dominant carrier to Latin America and the Carribean
- LHR carrier with good slot positions
- Good slot positions/frequencies in other controlled markets like Brazil, Argentina, NRT
- Good hub positions in DFW, MIA, and ORD, with a viable presence is almost all major US business centers.
- Appears to have the best or near best record at reducing non-financial, non-labor, non-fuel expense
- Dramatic improvement in labor relations
- Best management of the legacy carriers over the long term
- Brand new/renovated terminals in JFK and LAX
- Extremely strong brand (only United in comparable among legacies)
- Owns its predominant regional airline affiliate (American Eagle)

Weaknesses:
- Large debt load
- An aging fleet of planes
- Much poorer Asia route structure than UA and NW; no NRT 5th freedom and very limited China slots
- General costs continue to be higher than carriers, especially those in BK
- Only weakly profitable
- Lack of strong West Coast presence
- Large pension deficit
- Space or slot constrained in key markets of LAX, ORD, and LGA.
- Lack of long haul (777) aircraft for any significant expansion
- Relative lack of dominant positions in top business markets versus competition. AA is not #1 in many of its large markets, including NYC, LAX, ORD, BOS, etc. Compare with UA which is #1 SFO, #1 LAX, #1 ORD, #1 IAD. AA only really dominates two major markets, DFW and MIA.
- Inferior alliance (no antitrust immunity with One World)
- Inferior product to compete for premium traffic vs. non-US carriers.

Opportunities:
- New China frequencies and other Asian expansion
- Potential acquisition of Asian routes from UA, NW, especially NRT 5th freedom rights.
- Potential acquisition of other carriers/assets such as AS
- Restructuring of financial obligations and/or labor agreements outside of bankruptcy.
- 787 and 737RS offer opportunity to leapfrog rivals fleets
- Strong negotiating position with Boeing to get slots as needed, obtain/restructure financing, etc.
- DL and NW being in bankruptcy puts AA in a strong position if key assets like NRT hubs come "in play".
- Snatching gates from DL in LAX
- Merging with BA in the event of open skies and a regulatory change.

Threats:
- Lower cost competitors resulting from bankruptcy
- Industry consolidation that disadvantages it (e.g., UA/CO)
- Aggressive expansion by bankrupt carriers attacking key AA markets and eroding international yields (e.g., DL expansion in JFK and to Latin America)
- A labor force that is likely to demand that any future profits be given to them.
- UA (an airline with superior assets) getting it act together.
- Botching the transition to EU "open skies" and deepening a relationship with BA (e.g., losing much of your premium traffic to BA)

AA is focusing on optimizing its financial performance with its current assets, and even downsizing where appropriate. This has kept them out of bankruptcy. I think this is key because it means that AA has been forced to focus on controllable costs (non-fuel, non-labor, non-financial) and better labor relations as opposed to the type of financial re-engineering their competitors in bankruptcy have done. I believe this is a key advantage they will retain.

In the short term, I don't see AA doing much differently than they are now. They are not going to make decisions because I or anyone else wants them to be the biggest or baddest. Rather, they are going to make hard nosed financial decisions. This is a good thing, actually. What's next in terms of changes for AA then? Here's what I development I potentially foresee.

1. AA will "sweat its assets" for a few more years, while working with Boeing to secure delivery slots for aircraft that will allow them to leap frog to next gen technology. I expect AA to be a launch customer of the 737RS, locking up with WN a large chunk of the early production slots. I expect AA to buy a large number of 787's, potentially being the driver of a second production line. AA may take delivery of a limited number of planes between now and then to support critical replacements and expansion needs.

2. AA should defend its competitive advantages against other carriers. This means aggressively going after precious assets that come on the block (e.g., frequencies to restricted markets, NRT hub, potential carriers on the block) as well as trying to disrupt competitors which attempt to either dilute AA assets or build competing platforms. In this regard, DL and CO are the biggest threats. I, unfortunately, see no indication that AA has an answer to expansion by those two carriers. AA is seeing its position in NYC substantially diluted, for example.

3. AA should look to restructure its debt outside of bankruptcy. The window of opportunity here is closing as their profitability recovers. Some type of debt-for-equity swap or some such to reduce unsecured debt would greatly improve AA's financial flexibility. Otherwise, bankruptcy is always an option should their cost base prove out of line. The bottom line is that AA's debt is just too high.

4. AA needs to find a win-win approach to upcoming labor negotiations. I think the key is productivity. They should focus more on getting productivity improvements rather than salary give-backs. I think AA can pay market leading salaries if they are getting WN like productivity. Getting through the next round of negotiations without either getting raped by the unions or poisoning labor relations is critical.

5. Look to focused expansion, especially to fill key gaps in Asia and the US West Coast.

Right now AA is pretty much in a holding pattern. That's good for the time being, but eventually doing nothing will erode their competitive position as other carriers are more aggressive. This is true even if those other carriers do stupid things.

I will post more specifics here later, but wanted to get what I though the "strategic context" to set the table for what AA has to work with.
 
SESGDL
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:17 am

Many of these points are excellent, but I tend to think that things will only get harder for AA as DL and NW exit bankruptcy with lower costs. AA's aging MD-80 fleet will be in need of replacement and will require upwards of $10 billion to completely replace all 300+ airframes. AA has been very slow as of late with expansion, this may prove to be a problem in the long-run as CO and DL have been expanding rapidly into markets that AA has long dominated. While people on here will tend to state that AA's Latin American market in untouched and unchallenged it can not be ignored that CO and DL are now just as viable options to most people in the United States. While the market has grown, it hasn't grown as much as service levels have, and AA knows this.

All-in-all, AA's management has done an excellent job in keeping American competitive and profitable. Also as the world's largest airline, AA is in a position that every company would love to be in. If rumors of a UA-CO merger are true, however, AA will be in a distant 2nd. But we'll see what happens with that.

I agree with most of your points but also disagree with some. Most notably:

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
- LHR carrier with good slot positions

It's only a matter of time before U.K. open skies is allowed, and then LHR will be fair game.

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
- Dramatic improvement in labor relations
- Best management of the legacy carriers over the long term

Labor relations are only going to get worse as airlines return to profitability. The cuts that have been made are now being unimportant. I would argue that US and DL management could also be contenders for best management, as well as CO. US and DL management have completely turned their companies around, US is now the most profitable legacy carrier, something they never achieved in the past.

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
- Extremely strong brand (only United in comparable among legacies)
- Owns its predominant regional airline affiliate (American Eagle)

Brand recognition is far less important today as it was 5 years ago. People know often fly whoever has the most convenient schedule and the lowest price. In MSP, I know numerous World Perks members who try to fly NW, CO, or DL but will fly FL, SY, AA, UA, etc. if things are right. Service is so poor on US carriers that no one is any better than the other, and people recognise this.

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
- Merging with BA in the event of open skies and a regulatory change.

Never going to happen. BA is the U.K.'s national carrier, the British government would never allow their hometown airline to be headquartered by some Texans in Fort Worth, and vice-versa. Also their would be huge lawsuits, and it wouldn't be approved by the DOT. Just look at how long it took and at the opposition AA/BA faced when they wanted to codeshare across the Atlantic.

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
- Potential acquisition of other carriers/assets such as AS

I don't think AA is likely to acquire too many assets of other carriers in the future, which the recent financial woes of US carriers they know what a risk this can be. If AA hadn't acquired TW in 2001, I think AA would have been MUCH stronger today than they are, albeit slightly smaller, but much more profitable.

Jeremy
 
727LOVER
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:26 am

You didn't mention Wright.

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
- Lack of strong West Coast presence

Hey, they bought, not 1,... but 2..west coast carriers. Not a strong West Coast presence, their own fault.

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
- Only legacy carrier to never have filed bankruptcy.

But one day away, don't forget that.
Love Trumps Hate
 
commavia
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:40 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
Many of these points are excellent, but I tend to think that things will only get harder for AA as DL and NW exit bankruptcy with lower costs.

If AA can get their unions to agree to more concessions and/or productivity improvements, they should be just fine. AA already has the lowest non-labor unit costs of any legacy carrier. It's the enormous labor concessions that Delta, Northwest, United and USAirways were able to extract in bankruptcy that have given those companies an economic edge in the current environment. However, on the other hand, even with their unit cost advantage, AA is still doing quite well because it is generating a unit revenue premium to most of its peers.
 
CHIFLYGUY
Topic Author
Posts: 133
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:41 am

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):

Many of these points are excellent, but I tend to think that things will only get harder for AA as DL and NW exit bankruptcy with lower costs. AA's aging MD-80 fleet will be in need of replacement and will require upwards of $10 billion to completely replace all 300+ airframes. AA has been very slow as of late with expansion, this may prove to be a problem in the long-run as CO and DL have been expanding rapidly into markets that AA has long dominated. While people on here will tend to state that AA's Latin American market in untouched and unchallenged it can not be ignored that CO and DL are now just as viable options to most people in the United States. While the market has grown, it hasn't grown as much as service levels have, and AA knows this.

Thank you. I agree with your points to some extent. But consider: DL and NW have fleet problems of their own. Once DL gets done re-allocating equipment to international routes and taking delivery of the handful of 777's they have on order, they will effectively be in the same position as AA with regards to expansion. Neither carrier has the type of assets and market position that AA does either.

I believe bankruptcy leads carriers to focus on the "easy" costs: loans, leases, labor agreements, etc. rather than the "hard" problem of actually running an operationally efficient airline. Bankruptcy may give DL and NW great cost advantages over AA, but UA and US went through BK and didn't exactly emerge as juggernauts. The former two appear to be doing a much better job of using BK, but at the end of the day, there aren't a lot of great examples of companies coming out of BK as world dominators.

I do expect things to get tougher for AA, but the challenge is not insurmountable.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):

It's only a matter of time before U.K. open skies is allowed, and then LHR will be fair game.

Agreed, but then AA/BA will get anti-trust immunity. And access to LHR does not equate into great slots. Other airlines will pay a fortune to buy what AA already has.
 
CHIFLYGUY
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:02 am

Regarding Asian expansion, I will reprise thoughts I have posted elsewhere.

AA presently serves NRT 5x from LAX, DFW, ORD, and JFK. It also serves ORD-DEL and ORD-PVG. It recently terminated or announed the termination of SJC-NRT and DFW-KIX. JL is joining the OneWorld alliance.

AA's typical international strategy is to focus on major business hubs, flying to them from multiple US gateways. This has been the approach taken to LHR, CDG, NRT, GRU, and EZE, for example. Keep this in mind.

Where could AA expand? I see the following possibilities:

1. Additional NRT expansion. I don't see this as highly likely in the short term, but going double-daily from ORD or JFK is not out of the realm of possibility.

2. Additional India service. This market is wide open and AA already has a foothold. Other airlines are clearly going after this, however. AA could look for additional routes to DEL, or look to diversify with routes to BOM. A big problem is the lack of planes that can make these routes. 777LR's, which AA doesn't have, would likely be required. JFK-DEL would have been ideal, except that CO got there first.

3. HKG. Cathay is a OneWorld carrier. AA could deepen the relationship there and fly to HKG, potentially from multiple gateways. Starting ORD-HKG would be the logical place. Can AA get 5th freedom in HKG? UA seems to have it. This might allow AA to do limited beyond flying on its own metal, such as serving some of those Tier 2 China cities with frequencies going to waste. But AA seems very content in general to rely on partners for beyond connections.

4. China. Obviously the DFW-PEK route is a given - if AA gets the frequencies.

Beyond that, I don't see real growth opportunities. Australia is adequately covered with OneWorld partner Qantas. Other cities such as ICN do not have the traffic to justify a route with no code share on the other end. Also, AA is severely lacking in planes, and thus has only limited possible expansion.

The most likely scenario in my mind:

1) DFW-PEK if the frequencies are awarded
2) ORD-HKG if they are not not

Beyond that, I'm not sure AA would have the appetite for expansion.

The wildcard here is either UA or NW ending up in play. If that happend, AA would be an aggressive bidder for the NRT hub of either carrier.
 
commavia
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 5):
1) DFW-PEK if the frequencies are awarded
2) ORD-HKG if they are not not

Not likely. A daily ORD-HKG rotation requires more than two aircraft. DFW-PEK is currently planned to utilize only two, and AA doesn't have any more 777 capacity to spare to make ORD-HKG work. However, I completely agree that once AA does have the planes to make the route work, it is a no-brainer and would be immensely successful. I think a daily ORD-HKG-SIN rotation would work quite well.
 
AirSpare
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:22 am

What positive (or negatives) would occur if JJ were to join One World?

I would love to see a JJ/AA hub in northeastern Brazil, NAT or FOR.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
atlflyer
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:39 am

I would say that the biggest downfall to AA is their aging fleet...and people are beginning to notice it. I recently had a business trip to DFW and several of my colleagues took AA. Almost all of them complained to me that the cabins were falling apart..ripped cloth seats with old yellowish lighting. One even pointed out that in the lavatory there were ashtrays that had "No Smoking" stickers placed on them. You start to realize just how many MD80s AA has when you are delayed 3 hours at DFW (as I was) and almost every plane you see is an MD-80!

I meanwhile flew Delta on a 737-800 with new leather seat covers. The cabin was very clean and smelled new too. The Flight Attendants had their new uniforms on and looked great. Glad to see one airline actually upgrading!
 
BigGSFO
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 5):
Beyond that, I'm not sure AA would have the appetite for expansion.

There was a thread a few weeks ago suggesting that if AA does not get awarded DFW-PEK, they would look to South Africa.

As far as international expansion, I do think it will be conservative. Northeast Brazil is probably one market that is on the hot list vs. more service to Europe, although I would like to see them expand more into Spain (to integrate more with IB) with JFK-MAD, MIA-BCN, or DFW-MAD. ORD-SVO could also be a good route for them. Service to Asia, with the exception of DFW-PEK, will need more 777's. Unless they order more or shift some from Heathrow (unlikely) and South America (unlikely), they might just hold off until they order the 787.

One thing that hasn't been discussed is the role Eagle will play in AA's future. Just a few thoughts:
1. Could the current AA pilot contract be amended to allow for more larger RJ flying from Eagle?
2. If so, could we see larger RJ's pick up some MD80 flying?
3. If some MD flying is moved to Eagle, then AA could better utilize their exsisting fleet to expand domestically to support current or potential international ops at MIA, JFK, LAX, etc.
4. At some point, Eagle will have to replace the Saabs. How old are the ATR's?
 
commavia
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 8):
I would say that the biggest downfall to AA is their aging fleet...and people are beginning to notice it. I recently had a business trip to DFW and several of my colleagues took AA. Almost all of them complained to me that the cabins were falling apart..ripped cloth seats with old yellowish lighting. One even pointed out that in the lavatory there were ashtrays that had "No Smoking" stickers placed on them. You start to realize just how many MD80s AA has when you are delayed 3 hours at DFW (as I was) and almost every plane you see is an MD-80!

I think that generally most AA FFs are happy with the MD80s. AA sunk millions into them in the last 10 years to update their interiors, and I'd say that they are some of the most comfortable planes flying in the U.S. today as long as you aren't in the last 5-10 rows, and especially if you are in First, where there is just about no noise at all.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
Could the current AA pilot contract be amended to allow for more larger RJ flying from Eagle?

It doesn't need to be amended. Eagle can grow much, much more before it even begins to approach its capacity restrictions. In the rewritten AA-APA contract from 2003, Eagle's system ASMs are allowed to grow to, IINM, somewhere in the neighborhood of 105-110% of AA domestic ASMs. Currently, Eagle is at about 10-15%, by my estimate.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
If so, could we see larger RJ's pick up some MD80 flying?

The AA-APA contract says that AA mainline pilots get flying on any jets over 70 seats (i.e., bigger than the CRJs) but smaller than the MD80s as long as it is "cost neutral" to the company -- meaning that as long as, say, the EMB-190 (just an example, not a prediction) could be flown by AA pilots at the same price as Eagle pilots, AA pilots get the flying.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
If some MD flying is moved to Eagle, then AA could better utilize their exsisting fleet to expand domestically to support current or potential international ops at MIA, JFK, LAX, etc.

No MD80 flying will ever go to Eagle, and no Eagle pilots will ever be flying MD80s. Not to mention, there isn't much more cutting mainline can do with MD80s and shifting over to Eagle. Major former AA markets like CLE, PIT and BDL/PVD-ORD have now moved to all-Eagle, whereas some markets that everyone thought were headed for RJs like DFW-CMH/MEM are mainline.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 9):
At some point, Eagle will have to replace the Saabs. How old are the ATR's?

The SAABs are not going anywhere anytime soon. Back around 1998-1999, everyone thought it would be such a great idea for Eagle to go all-RJ, and then everyone figured out that the RJs had astronomical unit costs and were virtually impossible to fly profitably on the really short flights Eagle was using SAABs on, particularly out of DFW and LAX. The SAABs will remain, as they are the perfect plane for these shorter, thinner markets out of these two hubs. The only way I can see them going away is if Eagle outsources flying to really small markets to a third-party like what they have in St. Louis, but that would violate multiple union contracts, or if they got rid of the LAX hub and moved all SAABs to DFW and let Horizon take over the intra-California stuff. I personally find neither eventuality too likely, though.

As for the ATR72s, they are not going anywhere either. While they are pieces of sh*t and people can't stand them (myself included), they are perfect for the markets they serve out of MIA and SJU -- high density, lots of cargo/bag room, etc. Long-long-term (I'm talking another 10-15 years from now) I could see Eagle (Executive) replacing them with 70-seat Q400s.
 
B6DC10
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 8):
I meanwhile flew Delta on a 737-800 with new leather seat covers. The cabin was very clean and smelled new too. The Flight Attendants had their new uniforms on and looked great. Glad to see one airline actually upgrading!

It may seem like a minor thing, but I think this is a huge hole in AA's "brand". DL's flight crews look sharp, like in years past. AA's uniforms are old, and out dated. I see AA pilots everyday, and they mainly look like slobs. I think this is an easy, quick, and cheap way to make your brand, or in this case your airline more attractive...The seat covers wouldn't hurt either, but why not start w/ the face of your airline.
TriJet or No Jet At All...
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:21 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):

I think that generally most AA FFs are happy with the MD80s. AA sunk millions into them in the last 10 years to update their interiors, and I'd say that they are some of the most comfortable planes flying in the U.S. today as long as you aren't in the last 5-10 rows, and especially if you are in First, where there is just about no noise at all.

 checkmark ...flying on AA MadDog's every month, I agree...the MD80's are very comfortable, and I have yet to see even one MD80 in "bad" shape....the interiours are in excellent condition...now about those 757's..that's a different story... spin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
commavia
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting B6DC10 (Reply 11):
AA's uniforms are old, and out dated.

Yes, they are, but does updating them really add value for customers and the company? Is a traveler going to choose another company over AA because AA's uniforms are old? Not likely.

Quoting B6DC10 (Reply 11):
I see AA pilots everyday, and they mainly look like slobs

I think that some of the more senior geriatric flight attendants have that problem then the pilots. I'll definitely give you that -- some of those people have just completely lost any committment to personal appearance whatsoever because they know they'll be gone in a few years anyway.

Quoting B6DC10 (Reply 11):
I think this is an easy, quick, and cheap way to make your brand

It's not cheap. Delta spent millions (that, I might add, they didn't have) on their new uniforms, and while your friends may have been impressed with how the flight attendants on Delta looked in their new clothes, I'd be willing to bet that many, if not most, of Delta's flight attendants would much rather get some of their hundreds of millions in concessions back rather than get new uniforms. Perhaps a happier flight attendant -- even if in an older uniform -- is worth more than a pissed off, bitter flight attendant with Richard Tyler on.
 
morrirvolando
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:31 am

What a ridiculous turn this thread has taken...uniforms and aircraft interiors determine an airline's future.

Hey ATLflyer, out of curiosity, have you passed recently through the Delta facilities at JFK?
 
Evan767
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:34 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
Perhaps a happier flight attendant -- even if in an older uniform -- is worth more than a pissed off, bitter flight attendant with Richard Tyler on.

I have no idea what you are talking about. The flight attendants love their new uniforms and have a renewed spirit about Delta ever since the turn-around. If anything it was the old uniform with the pissed off flight attendant, and the Richard Tyler uniform now with the perky happy flight attendant. They LOVE their new, beautiful uniforms. The best in the legacies.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
Is a traveler going to choose another company over AA because AA's uniforms are old?

It sure as hell makes a better impression on the customer when they see new uniforms on happier flight attendants instead of old uniforms on sloppy flight attendants. Isn't that partly how customers choose their airlines? Appearance? I'd say so.

[Edited 2006-10-01 22:35:15]
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
AirSpare
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:35 am

I made the mistake once, of complaining about "I gotta fly on this antique?" to a ORD based AA FA on a Mad Dog.

The FA looked at me and said "Don't diss my airplane! I love flying and working on this plane! It's a great machine!".

I fell in love with her and the Mad Dog!  Smile
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
CHIFLYGUY
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting B6DC10 (Reply 11):

It may seem like a minor thing, but I think this is a huge hole in AA's "brand". DL's flight crews look sharp, like in years past. AA's uniforms are old, and out dated. I see AA pilots everyday, and they mainly look like slobs. I think this is an easy, quick, and cheap way to make your brand, or in this case your airline more attractive...The seat covers wouldn't hurt either, but why not start w/ the face of your airline.

Well, I agree with you on the uniform thing, except that the traveling public has shown repeatedly over the last few years that the only thing that matters is the price of the ticket. AA has recognized this and is not going to be investing money in items with no financial returns.

What I would argue is that AA has made far too many cuts in its premium offerings. There price is not the issue, and things I've complained about in the past such as warm moist towelettes instead of real hot towels in International First Class will chase customers away. I probably should indicate that investments in the premium cabins is something that needs to be done. I believe AA recognizes this as evidenced by, for example, their new business class seat. (No, it is not SQ, but that's not their brand image anyway).

Oh, and I guess another strength I should have added is that AA is one of only two USA based carriers with a true international first class product.
 
Evan767
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Morrirvolando (Reply 14):
Hey ATLflyer, out of curiosity, have you passed recently through the Delta facilities at JFK?

I admit, that is a sh**hole. It's a disaster. Employees that don't speak english, customers getting on wrong buses to wrong planes (CRJ's), and dark, confusing terminals. I completely agree.
The proper term is "on final" not "on finals" bud...
 
mpdpilot
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
Lack of long haul (777) aircraft for any significant expansion

so someone should explain this to me because AA has over 45 777. I think that if they wanted to they could make some changes and free up some of those. if delta can do it with less than 10 I'm sure something could be worked out.
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
CHIFLYGUY
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 8):

I would say that the biggest downfall to AA is their aging fleet...and people are beginning to notice it. I recently had a business trip to DFW and several of my colleagues took AA. Almost all of them complained to me that the cabins were falling apart..ripped cloth seats with old yellowish lighting. One even pointed out that in the lavatory there were ashtrays that had "No Smoking" stickers placed on them. You start to realize just how many MD80s AA has when you are delayed 3 hours at DFW (as I was) and almost every plane you see is an MD-80!

Given your handle, are you a Delta flyer? I ask because DL also has a large MD-80 fleet, second only to AA I believe.

The only problems with AA's aging fleet is fuel efficiency and maintenance. The interiors are not a major factor in whether or not customers actually buy a ticket.
 
N174UA
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RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:43 am

A good SWOT analysis...you must have some business background to organize it the way you did in your thread-starter.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 1):
It's only a matter of time before U.K. open skies is allowed, and then LHR will be fair game

Well...EU-US open skies is there, in principle. However, the EU won't implement it until the US Gov't. lifts the foreign ownership %-age, from 25-49.9%+, along with allowing execs. from European airlines to play an active role in the daily management of US airlines. Even the GOP congress is having reservations about that, despite the fact that GWB is all for it. With it becoming increasingly likely that the Dems will retake Congress, it's uncertain as to whether these issues will get worked out, and it's entirely possible that the late 2005 agreement may put on the shelf to gather dust.

We'll see. AA is a great airline and a tough competitor, and for that reason, a long-term survivor. They've been able to fly above a lot of the industry turbulence the last few years by avoiding Ch. 11 and actually communicating with their employees. How long that lasts for is anyone's guess, but it seems to be serving them well for the short term.
 
CHIFLYGUY
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 19):

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
Lack of long haul (777) aircraft for any significant expansion

so someone should explain this to me because AA has over 45 777. I think that if they wanted to they could make some changes and free up some of those. if delta can do it with less than 10 I'm sure something could be worked out.

I believe DL was flying a lot of 767's domestically, which let them redirect that capacity to international flying to replace 777's, then redeploy the 777's to the longest haul markets.

AA has a large 777 fleet. It needs this both for long haul flying and other routes that support an international first class product (which DL lacks), notably LHR. AA also doesn't have a lot of 767's ready to be easily re-deployed. If anything, AA is running short on 777's, as they should probably run all of their EZE, GRU, and GIG flights with them which they currently can't do today.
 
jfk777
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:52 am

MPD Pilot,

AA has 45 777 which are mostly spoken for. 17 flight a day to LHR require well 17 777's. Double Daily Miami - EZE require 4 777's. Jfk and Miami to GRU daily each another 4 777's. I'm up to 25 and haven't even crossed the Pacific yet. Tokyo, Shanghai and India eat up all the rest of the 777 capacity. AA needs 777-200LR, then we can talk expansion.
 
Wsan581
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:52 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:56 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
If AA can get their unions to agree to more concessions and/or productivity improvements, they should be just fine.

This will be a challenge if they continue to be profitable, also i read somewhere that the pensions are under budgeted by over 2 billion dollars.

AA deserves credit for everything they have done without the help of bankruptcy, something all legacys cant say.
Blue Skies Ahead!!
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 13):
It's not cheap. Delta spent millions (that, I might add, they didn't have) on their new uniforms, and while your friends may have been impressed with how the flight attendants on Delta looked in their new clothes, I'd be willing to bet that many, if not most, of Delta's flight attendants would much rather get some of their hundreds of millions in concessions back rather than get new uniforms. Perhaps a happier flight attendant -- even if in an older uniform -- is worth more than a pissed off, bitter flight attendant with Richard Tyler on.

Better to be paid crap and wear nice uniforms than to be paid crap wearing 20 year old uniforms right?

After all, AA's F/As had to give concessions too...

[Edited 2006-10-01 23:01:40]
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
BigGSFO
Posts: 2214
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:27 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
No MD80 flying will ever go to Eagle, and no Eagle pilots will ever be flying MD80s.

I meant would any current MD80 markets be replaced by larger RJ's flown by Eagle. However this information:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
The AA-APA contract says that AA mainline pilots get flying on any jets over 70 seats (i.e., bigger than the CRJs) but smaller than the MD80s as long as it is "cost neutral" to the company -- meaning that as long as, say, the EMB-190 (just an example, not a prediction) could be flown by AA pilots at the same price as Eagle pilots, AA pilots get the flying.

...gave me the answer I was looking for. Thanks.
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:14 am

Quoting Evan767 (Reply 15):
I have no idea what you are talking about. The flight attendants love their new uniforms and have a renewed spirit about Delta ever since the turn-around.

My mistake then, I meant no offense. However, the fact remains that for 95% of air travelers in 2006, the uniform the employee is wearing is the last thing on their minds. Schedule frequency, on-time reliability and of course, most importantly, price, are top of the mind for most passengers.

Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 19):
so someone should explain this to me because AA has over 45 777.

AA's 777s are already all being used. AA's massive amount of lift to the London market alone requires the equivelant of 21-22 777s per day, and Tokyo alone requires another 8-9, and that's before you even account for Frankfurt, Shanghai, Delhi, Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires, etc. In addition to all this, AA has leased a 777 to Boeing for an entire year. Bottom line: AA has no 777 capacity to spare whatsoever, and if they get the DFW-PEK route (which I think they have just as much chance of as any of the other contenders, if not a bit of an edge), they are going to pull the 777s from the JFK-EZE route to operate it.

Quoting Wsan581 (Reply 24):
This will be a challenge if they continue to be profitable, also i read somewhere that the pensions are under budgeted by over 2 billion dollars.

AA's pensions are not actually "underfunded." They are considered "underfunded" in the eyes of the law because the government requires the company to account for the fund's asset growth using an incredibly conservative funding formula. AA's pension funds are superbly managed and are actually generating asset growth returns of around 10-12% annually, while the company -- for accounting purposes -- is only allowed to assume growth of around 7-8% annually, IINM.

Quoting Wsan581 (Reply 24):
AA deserves credit for everything they have done without the help of bankruptcy, something all legacys cant say.

It's a point that's often overlooked. AA is now the only major legacy airline in the United States that has not declared bankruptcy, and has managed to do so while:

. fully funding all of its employees' pension plans, one of only 2 legacies to do so
. keeping all heavy maintenance in-house, the only U.S. airline to do so
. paying its employees what are now, amazingly, among industry-leading compensation

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 25):
After all, AA's F/As had to give concessions too.

Not as much as what Delta's did.

AA's Flight Attendants are, incredibly, now among the highest-paid in the industry. It's amazing because, back in '03 when the contract turmoil occured, the Flight Attendants were flipping out (understandably) because they were moved to essentially the bottom in the industry. Now, with the previously-unthinkable compensation concessions that Delta, Northwest, United and USAirways have been able to extract from their unions (or non-union workers, in Delta's case) through the bankruptcy process, AA's workers are now once again at the top-end of the industry's payscales in many instances.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13763
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 8):
I meanwhile flew Delta on a 737-800 with new leather seat covers. The cabin was very clean and smelled new too.

You really wear your bias on your sleave.

I'm no fan of either DL or AA after flying both for so long, but to single out the newest DL narrowbody as proof that their fleet is in better shape is ludicrous.

Many DL jets are in equally poor shape. They also have a huge fleet of MD80s like AA, and didn't spend all the money AA did to update them. DL has really run down 763s on domestic runs, including sealed over ashtrays, etc.

I applaud DL for spending the money to upgrade their 757s, though, and AA needs to do the same.

And further, AA has BEAUTIFUL 738s in their fleet, with really nice F seats. Compare the 738s of DL, AA, CO and you'll find them all similarly well kept and appointed. The DL has leather covers, which is great if you prefer that over cloth (I don't care as long as the seat is nice). AA's F seat is the best, but not remarkably so. None of them are so great you'd pledge never to fly the competitor's 738 again...  Wink

[Edited 2006-10-01 23:19:17]
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2614
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2001 6:25 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):

Many DL jets are in equally poor shape. They also have a huge fleet of MD80s like AA, and didn't spend all the money AA did to update them. DL has really run down 763s on domestic runs, including sealed over ashtrays, etc.

DL has refurbished MD-80s, MD-90s, and 767s with new lighting, signage, and seats. Having flown on both AA and DL MD-80s in recent months, I can say easily that DL's MD-80s look newer than AA's as they are though (on average), so that can be expected. Either way AA's didn't look bad at all, just a little older than DL.

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 20):
I ask because DL also has a large MD-80 fleet, second only to AA I believe.

DL's oldest MD-80 was delivered in 1987, the newest in 1993. AA's oldest was delivered in 1984, and the newest in 1999. So AA has a larger number of aircraft that are at either end on the age spectrum. AA's MD-80 fleet averages about 16 years while AA's average 18. The issue however, is that AA owns 3 times as many MD-80s as DL. It is likely, however, that AA will slowly retire the older MD-80s but will keep the newer ex-TW aircraft for the next 10-15 years.

Jeremy
 
jfk777
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:10 am

AA strategy of going to the main financial center of the world is working. I would like to see Hong Kong, I think not flying to another ONEWORLD members hub is a major deficiency.
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:15 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 27):
Not as much as what Delta's did.

AA's Flight Attendants are, incredibly, now among the highest-paid in the industry. It's amazing because, back in '03 when the contract turmoil occured, the Flight Attendants were flipping out (understandably) because they were moved to essentially the bottom in the industry. Now, with the previously-unthinkable compensation concessions that Delta, Northwest, United and USAirways have been able to extract from their unions (or non-union workers, in Delta's case) through the bankruptcy process, AA's workers are now once again at the top-end of the industry's payscales in many instances.

But they gave concessions none-the-less. And one would think that given they're the highest paid in the industry that their attitudes would show it. Yet last time I flew AA the F/A was wearing a screw-head pin as a show of mgt screwing them over...
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
DBCooper
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:51 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:17 am

As an AA frequent flyer (Exec Plat), let me tell you some concerns I have:

* AA's long-haul business class product is simply not competitive - or even close. Mind you, I have not yet had the chance to sample the new biz-class seats which I hope are an improvement. I will stick with BA and JL until AA gets it together.
* the terminal at JFK is *not* finished. I just conected DFW-JFK-Europe and had to transfer from the new terminal (nice, but very sterile) to the old wing (flew out of Gate 4X). I am not keen to repeat that experience. (walk through a construction site, re-clear security, hang out in a dark and dilapidated gate area and then board from the hallway (unique to gate 4X)). I would normally take BA, but not since the August liquid scare and the over-reaction in the UK. I should have taken LH (but not all of their aircraft have the new biz class seat installed, either).
* the interior condition of many of their aircraft is awful. I will no longer fly on the A-300 and the B-757 is getting very shabby, too.
* they continue to charge monopolistic fares from DFW. I can only hope that the Wright Amendment mods will help bring these ridiculous fare levels down. Until this happens, I will continue to fly on other airlines - or even drive to OKC and/or AUS to save huge $$

On the bright side, AA does seem to be trying hard.


- DBC
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 31):
But they gave concessions none-the-less. And one would think that given they're the highest paid in the industry that their attitudes would show it. Yet last time I flew AA the F/A was wearing a screw-head pin as a show of mgt screwing them over...

Agreed. Some AA Flight Attendants just have down-right horrific attitudes, but it's always been that way. They are notoriously militant as a group, but at the same time, many are absolutely amazing at what they do.

Quoting DBCooper (Reply 32):
AA's long-haul business class product is simply not competitive - or even close. Mind you, I have not yet had the chance to sample the new biz-class seats which I hope are an improvement. I will stick with BA and JL until AA gets it together.

Over on FlyerTalk, AA FFs are commenting on an event in New York where AA invited premium passengers to test out the seats, and the response seemed to be very, very positive.

Quoting DBCooper (Reply 32):
the terminal at JFK is *not* finished. I just conected DFW-JFK-Europe and had to transfer from the new terminal (nice, but very sterile) to the old wing (flew out of Gate 4X). I am not keen to repeat that experience. (walk through a construction site, re-clear security, hang out in a dark and dilapidated gate area and then board from the hallway (unique to gate 4X)).

That will soon be fixed. After April 2007, no more walks outside security, no more third-world terminal. Everything will be consolidated in the new Terminal 9, which is a beautiful terminal, and apparently the new terminal will be getting a new Admirals Club and Flagship Lounge for international/transcon paid F customers.
 
CHIFLYGUY
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:39 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 33):

Agreed. Some AA Flight Attendants just have down-right horrific attitudes, but it's always been that way. They are notoriously militant as a group, but at the same time, many are absolutely amazing at what they do.

I agree totally. AA has some dog flight attendants; it's a huge airline and some bad apples are to be expected. But AA's best flight attendants are as good as any in the world. No, they may not be 22 year old Asian hotties, but they understand excellent service and professionalism. It's too bad the union wouldn't allow the worst of the lot to just be axed so that they don't reflect so poorly on the rest who are doing an overall good job. One of the big reasons I switched from being a primarily UA flyer to a primarily AA flyer some years back is the superior service I get on AA.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2702
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting DBCooper (Reply 32):
As an AA frequent flyer (Exec Plat), ...



Quoting DBCooper (Reply 32):
I will stick with BA and JL until AA gets it together.



Quoting DBCooper (Reply 32):
Until this happens, I will continue to fly on other airlines

I see some serious contradictions in your statements.
Stop pop up ads
 
DBCooper
Posts: 163
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2004 2:51 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:55 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 35):

A lot of my biz travel is on AA. Personal is not. Contradiction explained, not that it is any of your business.


- DBC
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:58 am

Quoting N174UA (Reply 21):
Well...EU-US open skies is there, in principle. However, the EU won't implement it until the US Gov't. lifts the foreign ownership %-age, from 25-49.9%+, along with allowing execs. from European airlines to play an active role in the daily management of US airlines. Even the GOP congress is having reservations about that, despite the fact that GWB is all for it. With it becoming increasingly likely that the Dems will retake Congress, it's uncertain as to whether these issues will get worked out, and it's entirely possible that the late 2005 agreement may put on the shelf to gather dust.

Even if there is a full open sky agreement....obtaining enough slots is difficult and expensive.....AF might help DL with some potential slots, but I'm not so sure if some of the carriers would get enough slots in critical mass to make a difference.....

To top it off, it has been shown numerous amounts of times that USA-LHR isn't the "holy grail" of service......though I think ATL-LHR would do well.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
incitatus
Posts: 2702
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Thread starter):
Right now AA is pretty much in a holding pattern.

I agree with that. Key to getting off the holding pattern is to come to an agreement with the pilots that improves the competitiveness of the company.
I doubt American will embark on any serious expansion, acquisition or fleet renewal without a good contract in place.
Stop pop up ads
 
CHIFLYGUY
Topic Author
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:14 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 37):

Even if there is a full open sky agreement....obtaining enough slots is difficult and expensive.....AF might help DL with some potential slots, but I'm not so sure if some of the carriers would get enough slots in critical mass to make a difference.....

DL might be able to get slots from AF, but I'm skeptical that AF would simply give slots worth north of $10 million each to DL out of the goodness of their heart. I'm sure there would have to be compensation somewhere.

Also, even with LHR access and slots, carriers like DL and CO don't have the planes to match AA's 16 daily 777's Where is DL or CO going to get the equivalent of 6 daily 777's to compete just with AA's JFK-LHR service? And under open skies AA could move its DFW flights to LHR, as well as have a much more integrated service with BA under a likely anti-trust immunity scenario so they wouldn't be standing still either.

Even with open skies and slots, AA and UA are going to continue to have a leg up on London service for some time. It would be a long process to catch up for the other airlines.
 
dfwagt
Posts: 72
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:39 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:19 am

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 8):
meanwhile flew Delta on a 737-800 with new leather seat covers. The cabin was very clean and smelled new too. The Flight Attendants had their new uniforms on and looked great. Glad to see one airline actually upgrading

If I am not mistaken, DL has not paid for the new improvments they have made. How is it that an airline that is Bankrupt can do so much? The have expanded like crazy, employees have new uniforms, and planes have/are being upgraded.
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:40 am

By the end of this year I will be a gold status member on AA. Here are my takes:

STRENGTHS:
--JFK/LAX routes most sucessful.
--Nice referbished terminals: JFK, LAX, MIA. And ORD and DFW are nice too.
--Friendly F/As on almost all my flights this year.
--While the fleet is ageing the S80s, 767s, and 738s are very well-kept and are comfortable to fly on.
--Interiors, in general are well-kept (pannelling, overheads, ETC.)
--Wiglets
--On-Time. (This is a big thing with me.)

WEAKNESSES:
--Skeptical of taking the new 738 deliveries (they need them.) And deffering them back isn't going to help anything.
--757s. Seriously, F*ck the new seat covers. AA is going to have these birds for a good long while. Install the new seats like on the rest of the fleet. It would be a good investment. They are already behind the comfort levels when compared to CO, DL and UA.
--A300s. A rarity, but a pain.
--Improve B.O.B. meals. Add some lunch and dinner options.
--Please complete the JFK terminal.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
atlflyer
Posts: 573
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:13 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:41 am

Quoting Morrirvolando (Reply 14):
Hey ATLflyer, out of curiosity, have you passed recently through the Delta facilities at JFK?

I am not saying that Delta has nothing else to fix/upgrade because they do. Their JFK terminals are not great by any means, but at least they are doing something to improve the passenger experience.

I will have to say that AA had great seating in Terminal D at DFW. Nice black leather seating with granite countertops in between the seats. It was impressive!

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 28):
You really wear your bias on your sleave.

I'm no fan of either DL or AA after flying both for so long, but to single out the newest DL narrowbody as proof that their fleet is in better shape is ludicrous.

Many DL jets are in equally poor shape. They also have a huge fleet of MD80s like AA, and didn't spend all the money AA did to update them. DL has really run down 763s on domestic runs, including sealed over ashtrays, etc.

I applaud DL for spending the money to upgrade their 757s, though, and AA needs to do the same.

And further, AA has BEAUTIFUL 738s in their fleet, with really nice F seats. Compare the 738s of DL, AA, CO and you'll find them all similarly well kept and appointed. The DL has leather covers, which is great if you prefer that over cloth (I don't care as long as the seat is nice). AA's F seat is the best, but not remarkably so. None of them are so great you'd pledge never to fly the competitor's 738 again...

Sorry but DL's MD80s and 757s look much newer than AAs with the updated lighting, signage, seat covers and lavatories.

I am yet to see a BEAUTIFUL 738 on AA; I flew on one last spring and it was unfortuante that the lighting already looked yellow and some sections had bulbs burned out.

I used to always fly AA, but until they stop charging extra for everything (like their current test run of $3 for two cookies) I will not fly them.

But you feel free to fly whoever you want! If you like flying AA's MD80s and 757s, then go for it. It makes no difference to me.
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Dfwagt (Reply 40):
If I am not mistaken, DL has not paid for the new improvments they have made. How is it that an airline that is Bankrupt can do so much? The have expanded like crazy, employees have new uniforms, and planes have/are being upgraded.

DL has paid for the improvements. They were budgeted for just like everything else. Stop trying to start shit.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 10):
The SAABs are not going anywhere anytime soon.

The Saab fleet is definately on the way out. Matter of fact a deal was inked just last week for 25 AE Saabs to head to Australia starting this December.

Here is a short quote.

Australia's REX To Fly Saabs Leaving American Eagle's Fleet
Aviation Daily
09/29/2006, page 09

Saab Aircraft Leasing cinched a deal with Australian carrier Regional Express (REX) for 25 Saab 340B Plus planes exiting the American Eagle fleet during the next three years.

Deliveries of the Saabs to REX start in December and continue over three years.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Wsan581
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:52 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 43):
DL has paid for the improvements. They were budgeted for just like everything else. Stop trying to start shit.

I think what he means is that AA has had no help from bankruptcy protection unlike DL. Ok if what you say is true then they paid for the upgrades BUT have not paid for many many othr things thanks to bankruptcy protection!!

Kudos to AA.
Blue Skies Ahead!!
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting Wsan581 (Reply 45):
I think what he means is that AA has had no help from bankruptcy protection unlike DL. Ok if what you say is true then they paid for the upgrades BUT have not paid for many many othr things thanks to bankruptcy protection!!

DL is paying it's bills in bankruptcy. Ex the pension, which is being dumped. You have a warped view on what Chap 11 is my friend, you dont just get a "don't pay any of your bills card."
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
Wsan581
Posts: 174
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:52 pm

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 46):
DL is paying it's bills in bankruptcy. Ex the pension, which is being dumped. You have a warped view on what Chap 11 is my friend, you dont just get a "don't pay any of your bills card."

They get heavy discounts that they would not have seen had they not file for bankruptcy protection right? There fore they have been forgiven portions of there debt.

You fail to realize what a big chunk they save by dumping there pensions!
Blue Skies Ahead!!
 
777STL
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:22 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 43):
DL has paid for the improvements. They were budgeted for just like everything else. Stop trying to start shit.

His point still stands, though. DL's employees have paid for the improvements, not DL.
PHX based
 
akizidy214
Posts: 258
Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:10 am

RE: AA: The Future Of American Airlines

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 27):
they are going to pull the 777s from the JFK-EZE route to operate it.

Nope! That Flight always has a heavy load. Look for the 777 to come from the RDU-LGW route and the other one from Boeing when it is returned from the lease.

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 43):
I used to always fly AA, but until they stop charging extra for everything (like their current test run of $3 for two cookies) I will not fly them.

Thats funny seeing as this was only a 7 day trial that started on the 25th! While I beleive its a stupid idea its no reason not to fly AA. You should come up with a better reason.
DCA