OPNLguy
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Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:30 am

Here's Part 4 since Part 3 was getting so large (again)............................................

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:53:40]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
DeC
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:41 am

from part 3 of the discussion:

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 200):
I have no idea of the technical issues with TCAS, but wouldnt it warn much earlier, than a couple of seconds prior to impact ?
If this is the case, it sounds unlikely, that the Boeing crew didnt response until seconds before impact.


I am not sure about this, but it's my understanding (and someone who knows for sure please correct me if i am wrong) that TCAS takes at least 2 factors in mind in order to warn the pilots about a possible collision:

1) proximity, i.e. how close one plane is to another and
2) possibility of a collision according to the paths of the planes, i.e. calculating the logical extensions of the aircrafts' paths by their current status (turn, descending or climbing, speed) and resulting in a possible crossing of the 2 path-lines at one common point, i.e. a collision.

Now, IF the TCAS systems were on and working in both planes would it be possible that the 737 would be in a turn or descend / climb so tight and abrupt that the TCAS (one of the 2 or both of them) wasn;t given the time and chance to calculate the possibility of a common point (collision) between the path-lines?

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:42:52]
DEC
 
andessmf
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:41 am

"The aircraft crashed shortly after takeoff after taking evasive action to avoid a Pan American 707 which had been placed on a converging track by Air Traffic Control."
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...5®=N849D&airline=Eastern+Air+Lines

"Flying VFR at night over woodland, the crew was unable to determine that aircraft's attitude, and the wings rolled past 90° bank. The plane then entered a steep dive and broke up at approximately 13,000 feet."

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...ate=06061992®=HP-1205&airline=COPA

There are ways where the aircraft manuevers can be excessive enough to render the aircraft uncontrollable.
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:41 am

Could I suggest that the 737 had prior warning (either saw the Legacy or got a TCAS alert) then started a right bank.

It is aviation law (in the UK and Canada where I trained to fly) to bank RIGHT when faced with a possible head on collision.

The Legacy pilot did not see the 737 on time to take any avoiding action, so if any of the two aircraft banked right, it had to be the 737.

At the moment, I cannot think of any other collision angle which would cause this damage to the Legacy. ie. - the legacy striking the underneath of the 737 which was banked to the right.

Read my replies (185 + 195) towards the foot of Part 3 before responding to my theory.
 
fliguy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:44 am

I guess everyone wants to keep guessing what happened...

Unfortunately we might never know as the Brazilian news is reporting that it may take up to 90 days to complete the investigation. And none of the news agencies are reporting any new news after the crash site and all 155 suspected dead.

As indicated in my post #198, the crew of the Legacy is in serious trouble "do crime de homícidio culposo" translation Negligent Homicide.

So far the folks at O Globo are the only people keeping up with the happenings in the investigation and search efforts.

The O Globo article can be found here:

http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/01/285915797.asp

The most current article(s) can be found here:

http://oglobo.globo.com/

I know it's hard to translate, but you can figure out a good deal of what is being said...

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:51:46]
 
khobar
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:46 am

As for the speculation regarding the 737 being in a right bank, consider this. The sun was to the left of the EMB, and the EMB persons saw a shadow. This would seem to indicate that the 737 approached from the left of the EMB. If they were flying in opposite directions, a right bank would have the 737 banking away from the EMB.

“No one believes we managed to survive a mid-air collision,” Mr. Sharkey wrote. “Neither of the pilots can understand how a 737 could have hit us without them seeing it,” he added, noting that the smaller plane was “flying stable northwest at 37,000 feet with the sun off the left wing, and a 737 would have been obvious.”
...

"The corporate jet, a Legacy 600 made by Embraer, safely landed in Cachimbo. Its pilot reported seeing, "out of nowhere, a large shadow" passing his plane, clipping his wing, and forcing an emergency landing, said Defense Minister Waldir Pires."

[Edited 2006-10-02 01:48:42]
 
optionscle
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:58 am

Quoting Khobar (Reply 5):
Seems to indicate that the 737 approached from the left, though the time between the appearance of the shadow and the collision is not clear.

I think this is the key. Keep in mind that a lot was happening at the time, and while it is possible that the shaddow appeared before contact was made, it is equally possible that it occured at the same moment of or even after contact. With the speeds of the aircraft involved and the confusion in such a situation, the account of a shaken pilot on the exact timing of a split second shaddow shouldn't be taken as gospel.
 
airbrasil
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:00 am

Can anyone draw a photo of what culd have happened?

Airbrasil
 
richm
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:00 am

Are they pretty certain that it was a collision that caused this accident now?
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:01 am

Referring to reply 5 by Khobar.

By "shadow" the pilot may not have meant a literal shadow from the sun being cast on the Legacy, but simply a sudden unidentified large object flashing past the windcreen?

Also if the 737 was over the top of the Legacy, it was still possible to cast an actual shadow on the cockpit (albeit of split second duration)?

It is just that I have not found any other collision angle (besides the 737 being in a right bank) which would explain the damage to two separate areas on the Legacy which are so far apart both vertically and laterally.
 
DeC
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 6):
and while it is possible that the shaddow appeared before contact was made, it is equally possible that it occured at the same moment of or even after contact. With the speeds of the aircraft involved and the confusion in such a situation, the account of a shaken pilot on the exact timing of a split second shaddow shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Indeed. If you think of those inapprehensibly rapid moments of such a mid-air contact at those speeds, then i wouldn't be surprised if nobody, even the most experienced, could accurately define the precise time-table and order of such events.

Also, don’t forget that when relaxed at cruising altitude and straight ahead course, you’re not exactly at a point of such a high alarm where you constantly await and watch out for things like that.
DEC
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:06 am

Hi Airbrasil, this is the nearest thing to drawing a picture and it is close to what I have in mind.

If you have not already seen it, have a look at the following animation:

http://gmc.globo.com/GMC/1,,2465-p-M549154,00.html

I know it is conjecture but might be a possibility.
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting Fliguy (Reply 4):

As indicated in my post #198, the crew of the Legacy is in serious trouble "do crime de homícidio culposo" translation Negligent Homicide.

Sorry, Fliguy, but what the article you linked actually says is that at the present time the police has NO evidence of negligence on the part of the Legacy crew. Though an indictment would occur should new evidence in this regard emerge in the course of investigations.
Let's go Pens!
 
khobar
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:18 am

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 9):
It is just that I have not found any other collision angle (besides the 737 being in a right bank) which would explain the damage to two separate areas on the Legacy which are so far apart both vertically and laterally.

The damage to the Legacy's winglet could have been caused by the 737's port horizontal stablizer. The damage to the Legacy's horizontal stabilizer could have been caused by debris. No banking involved. (Coulda, maybe, might, perhaps, etc.)

Consider the following videos: http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=69569
http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=103349
http://my.break.com/media/view.aspx?ContentID=156141

Better video of the F18/A4
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0MoUZeuC9zc&mode=related&search=

Some weird stuff can happen - IOW, you don't necessarily have to have a direct match of angles, etc. when aircraft are in flight.

Doesn't mean the 737 wasn't in a right bank, of course.

[Edited 2006-10-02 02:32:23]
 
airbrasil
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:57 am

Hello everyone, I'm at work and do not have my computer.. after seeing the photos and reading some of the posts I believe that both planes were heading straight for eachother at the same level (ATC's Error)... As 737 detected Legacy, it banked to the right, hitting the winglet and tail section of rudder... as for the 737, it might have damaged the wing as well as bottom fuselage causing controls to go dead.. The Legacy captain did not see the 737 since the shadow from the sun blocked the view...

The photo below if just a handmade scenario that I believe it might have happened.. Awthompson thanks for the link but I cannot open right now at work.

Airbrasil


 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:09 am

Referring to reply 9

I wonder if at such a high speed (in excess of 1000 mph) debris from initial contact between the Legacy winglet and any part of the 737 would have been deflected so far inboard and upward to strike the horizontal stabilizer of the Legacy as well. Check the front view of the Legacy in Part 3.

I agree that your posted videos show strange things happening, however two of them show aircraft travelling in the same direction as each other.

Head on collisions and the subsequent debris emission would be on an exponentially faster timescale. I suggest that the airflow and momentum of the 737/Legacy collision would immediately carry debris rearwards and in the same path of flight of either aircraft initially.

I know of course that few head on collisions at high altitude and high speed have been documented and little is known about what may or may not happen.

I can only speculate!

Damage to the Legacy is "relatively light" although only millimetres away from being catastrophic. They certainly had fortune on their side! Loss of the horizontal stabilizer or the elevater of the Legacy would have been a different story and looking at the pictures in part 2, that almost happened.

Anyway, it is 2am here in Ireland and I must get up for work in the morning!

Regards, and may the families of those who have lost loved ones be comforted in their hour of need.
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting Airbrasil (Reply 14):
I believe that both planes were heading straight for eachother at the same level (ATC's Error)

Sorry Airbrasil, but this is highly unlikely. Not only would it involve ATC error but also pilot error from one of the aircraft. Airplanes flying in almost opposite directions should not be at the same flight level. There are specific FLs for eastbound aircraft and different ones for westbound planes. On the other hand, if ATC issued a clearance to climb or descend to one of the aircraft, then it's another story. An ANAC director, Denise Abreu, also believes at this point that an ATC error is unlikely.

Source: http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/01/285916103.asp

In the same article, ANAC's president, Milton Zuanazzi is quoted as saying that the Legacy's TCAS was working when it left SJK and also when it was tested at Cachimbo AFB. Whether it was turned off by the crew, as suggested by a quote posted by OPNLguy in Part 3, is not mentioned. As a matter of fact, I haven't seen that piece of info in the Brazilian press yet.

Debris also is spread throughout a 20 km2 area, thus the difficulty is locating the CVR and FDR.

Source: http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/01/285921583.asp

(Portuguese only, sorry)

[Edited 2006-10-02 03:12:18]

[Edited 2006-10-02 03:20:36]
Let's go Pens!
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:16 am

Hi Airbrasil

That is a possibility and close to what I have been thinking.

When two aircraft meet head on, it is aviation law to break right. The Legacy didn't, so surely the 737 did, although too late sadly. A right bank would explain the damage points on the Legacy.

Buenas Noches from Ireland. (I only know Spanish, sorry about that!)

I will check the remainder of this thread tommorrow at my work. I will sleep now.
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:18 am

Wow, if debris is spread over such a distance, then we are looking at aircraft break up well before impact with the ground. I thought that was the case when I first saw the aerial photos of some of the wreckage in the trees.
 
CPHGuard
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting ULMFlyer (Reply 16):
Whether it was turned off by the crew, as suggested by a quote posted by OPNLguy in Part 3, is not mentioned.

Can someone please clarify the following questions for me:

Is it possible to turn off the TCAS in a modern airliner? To me it seems a little like turning off your ABS brakes and Airbags in your car.

If it is possbile, what would be the reason for turning off the TCAS ?

It has been mentioned that the EMB had it's transponder turned off. I know this is possible, but wouldnt ATC contact the aircraft, when they lose the signal ?

Regads
Thomas
 
DeC
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 19):

It is, just turn the tcas operation selector to anywhere but the 'TA/RA' mode (737/757/767/777, a32x, a31x from what i know). Reason is, if i recall correctly, to protect anyone standing around the plane (or boarding pax) while on the ground, from the dangerous and very powerful signal rays transmitted from the tcas system outside the aircraft. You set it on while ready to take off and while nobody is around and outside the aircraft.
DEC
 
ikramerica
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting OptionsCLE (Reply 6):
With the speeds of the aircraft involved and the confusion in such a situation, the account of a shaken pilot on the exact timing of a split second shaddow shouldn't be taken as gospel.

Personal accounts of chain of events in an emergency are not reliable. The brain gets more information than it can process, usually because it isn't paying that much attention to the beginning of the event, only to the part after the event, but the beginning of the event was observed. The brain will then reprocess that information too, and place it in the wrong point of the timeline.

Thus, the shadow may have come before the hit, but not have been processed correctly until the hit alerted the pilots' brains that all that information needs to be reexamined.

Eye witness accounts are not overly useful for establishing timelines.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
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zeke
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:59 am

Anyone interested in seeing what the damage to the Legacy is like, please find below photos of the Legacy after it landed.





We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
EXC47
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:08 pm

IMHO...
Did you notice the white line on the broken winglet ? Looks like it broke up from inside/outside or up/down. I believe in the theory that the winglet sliced thru or under the mid wing causing it to break up because of the forces/lift acting upon it. Control was then lost.
 
Stil
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:14 pm

Does anybody know if there were any transmissions to ATC from any of the aircrafts? It seems strange that nobody noticed anything...

Stil
....... Gueropppa! ......
 
ABpositive
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:33 pm

Looking at the photo of the crash site, the nether region of the right wing appears to be much less damaged than the right wing’s. Now this could be solely due to the way it impacted with the trees, but coincidentally, it is also the wing which was allegedly struck by the Legacy. This could have resulted in the catastrophic failure which was aided by the existing lift forces acting there, as EXC47 mentioned.

http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j193/joaovitor/gear.jpg
 
deltajet757
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:34 pm

News from ATW Online...

No survivors in Brazil's worst air disaster
Monday October 2, 2006

"No survivors have been found in the wreckage of the Gol 737-800 that is believed to have collided in midair with an Embraer 600 Legacy business jet Friday afternoon.

The Legacy, operated by ExcelAire, landed safely at Cachimbo Air Base with all five passengers and two crew unharmed, according to Flight Safety Foundation's Aviation Safety Network. Embraer said in a statement that the executive jet was involved "in a midair collision."

The Gol jet was carrying 149 passengers and a crew of four. The wreckage of the aircraft, registration PR-GTD, was located Saturday in the Amazon jungle about 30 km. (18.8 mi.) from the town of Peixoto Azevedo in the state of Mato Grosso in the center of the country.

Gol Flight 1907 departed Manaus at 15:35 local time Sept. 29 on a scheduled flight to Brasilia and Rio de Janeiro, according to ASN. Contact was lost at 16:48 while the aircraft was at a cruise altitude of FL360.

The accident is Gol's first and the worst in Brazil's history, It is also the first loss of a 737-800. The dash 800 was delivered new by Boeing on Sept. 12 and had only 200 flight hours, according to the airline."


_________

I give out my condolences to the families of the victims.  tombstone 

-DeltaJet757
FLY DELTA JETS
 
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zeke
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting ABpositive (Reply 25):
Looking at the photo of the crash site, the nether region of the right wing appears to be much less damaged than the right wing's.

That photo looks wrong for an aircraft that went vertically into the ground, that is more like a pancake, inverted flat spin.

I noticed the missing engines, and the gear being extended.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 3:02 pm

I don't want to make any conjecture about this until more details become available.

However, I cannot get my head around the suggestion that a pilot, ANY pilot, when flying in a radar environment, with good R/T cover, on a published airway, would physically turn off his aircraft's TCAS and deviate from his assigned flight level. I have thought and thought about it, and only come back to the question "Why?"

One thing this terrible occurance (I even wonder if it can be called an accident yet) flags up is the fact that you cover the world with airways, nominally 10 miles wide, then squeeze everything down the middle of the damn thing. In non-radar environments, it is common practice to off-set the airway centreline to the right by 1 mile. All modern day aircraft have the technology to do this, and I wonder whether now is the time to put forward the argument for adopting such a procedure worldwide.

Shamu
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PHKLM
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:08 pm

This thread is a follow up on the crash of Gol 1907; previously discussed in Part III, to be found here:

Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 3 (by OPNLguy Oct 1 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-10-02 09:09:09]
 
workhorse
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:10 pm

Quoting CPHGuard (Reply 19):
Is it possible to turn off the TCAS in a modern airliner? To me it seems a little like turning off your ABS brakes and Airbags in your car.

He didn't turn off TCAS, he (allegedly) turned off transponder thus stoping TCAS from working. And this is more like turning off lights in your car when driving by night. It helps you not to be seen, but you better watch out. And, of course, it's illegal in just about every country.

[Edited 2006-10-02 09:12:28]
 
richm
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:19 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 28):
I have thought and thought about it, and only come back to the question "Why?"

Perhaps the 738 crew had TCAS set to "Above" or "Below" instead of the normal (N) setting. (Which would only show traffic according to where the switch is set)

EDIT: Didn't see Workhorse's reply as I had the "post message" window open.

[Edited 2006-10-02 09:23:18]
 
DeC
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:29 pm

Quoting Workhorse (Reply 30):
He didn't turn off TCAS, he (allegedly) turned off transponder thus stoping TCAS from working. And this is more like turning off lights in your car when driving by night. It helps you not to be seen, but you better watch out. And, of course, it's illegal in just about every country.

Do we know this for sure?
DEC
 
Vimanav
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:35 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 2):
"The aircraft crashed shortly after takeoff after taking evasive action to avoid a Pan American 707 which had been placed on a converging track by Air Traffic Control."
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...Lines

This accident occurred during an era when aircraft structures were not as strong as they are these days. The aircraft involved - a DC7 is not in the same league as a B737-800 in terms of structural integrity.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 2):
"Flying VFR at night over woodland, the crew was unable to determine that aircraft's attitude, and the wings rolled past 90° bank. The plane then entered a steep dive and broke up at approximately 13,000 feet."
http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/v...=COPA

The aircraft in this case was a B732 that was 12 years old at the time of the crash. The manuevre too was extreme with the wings rolling past 90 degrees and the aircraft in a steep dive.

In case of the Gol aircraft, the only violent maneuvre would have been a momentary one to avoid collision and this in itself is definitely not cause enough for a break up. AFTER the collision, with vital parts damaged, the integrity of the structure may well have been compromised and a structural break-up thereafter cannot be ruled out.

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
Qantas744er
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:51 pm

Regarding the photo, the gear on the still intact wing is down and locked...
a sign that the crew still tried to land somewere, but in the end lost lost control?

Cheers Leo
You live and you die, by the FMA
 
remcor
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part

Mon Oct 02, 2006 4:58 pm

Quoting Vimanav (Reply 33):

This accident occurred during an era when aircraft structures were not as strong as they are these days. The aircraft involved - a DC7 is not in the same league as a B737-800 in terms of structural integrity.

Are you sure? I would think as technology has improved you would find that aircraft are actually "less strong" than in the past. What I mean, is that with improvements in the technology of predicting failure you are now able to design things with smaller and smaller safety factors. With better prediction (computer simulations, ect.) you can substitute saftey factor.

For instance, if you're not exactly sure what forces the fuselage will encounter you probably will way overdesign it so that you're sure it won't fail. But as you gain knowledge of what the forces on that fuselage exactly are you can design it lighter and more efficiently.

The for instance the DC-3 never once suffered a structural design failure, but it surely wasn't as structurally efficient as a 777.

[Edited 2006-10-02 10:14:33]
 
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zeke
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:35 pm

The FDR data from the Legacy has been analysed, it confirms that the aircraft was involved in a mid-air collision.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
FlyHoss
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:18 pm

Quoting RichM (Reply 31):
Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 28):
I have thought and thought about it, and only come back to the question "Why?"

Perhaps the 738 crew had TCAS set to "Above" or "Below" instead of the normal (N) setting. (Which would only show traffic according to where the switch is set)

That's not how TCAS works. Even tilted up or down, you still have coverage at your altitude. "Above" and "Below" still includes your current altitude.
A little bit louder now, a lil bit louder now...
 
antiuser
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:52 pm

On a bit of a morbid note, Gol issued a statement shortly after the authorities confirmed there were no survivors. They will cover the costs of the funerals, plus medical, psychological and religious assistance, food, lodging and transportation for the families of the victims. A funeral home in São Paulo confirms they received an order from G3 for 155 caskets.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 28):
However, I cannot get my head around the suggestion that a pilot, ANY pilot, when flying in a radar environment, with good R/T cover, on a published airway, would physically turn off his aircraft's TCAS and deviate from his assigned flight level. I have thought and thought about it, and only come back to the question "Why?"

Well, one thing that comes to my mind (wild speculation, obiouvsly), is that the pilot wanted to show the aircraft performances to the journalist he had onboard... things like going up close to the maximum cruising altitude, going close to VNE, stall, bank limits an so on. Such things are often demonstrated when you read a bizjet review on a magazine, I remember reading one on the GV thet was really interesting, though in that case they performed the demonstration flight under ATC control and asked the permission for the altitude changes.
If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
antiuser
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:00 pm

Quoting CURLYHEADBOY (Reply 39):
in that case they performed the demonstration flight under ATC control and asked the permission for the altitude changes

Which is how it should always be done. If indeed this was the scenario (and I still find it hard to believe that a crew would turn off the transponder while flying through military-controlled airspace), they could've asked ATC for clearance to climb, ATC would have held them down until the 738 passed through and then likely clear them to climb.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:08 pm

Referring to Reply 27 (Zeke) - Since wreckage is spread over a large area, with this photo possibly showing one of the largest remaining parts ie, wing box and inboard parts of both wings (we cannot see how much of the outer wings are still attached if any) it looks like the 737 broke up in the air well before reaching the ground.

Referring to Reply 24 (ABpositive) - Also the starboard (right) wing perhaps show evidence of an explosion from within as all of the oval shaped access panels are blown out. In fact, with closer study, you can see foilage through those oval holes suggesting that only the under surface of most of the right wing remains. The left wing does not seem to have suffered the same fate.

Might this allow us to speculate that there was a fuel explosion in the right wing shortly after the collision? It would be interesting to hear some more technically minded responses on this one.
 
curlyheadboy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:19 pm

Something went very wrong with the TCAS system methinks, I have no knowledge of how the Embraer TCAS is displayed and operated, but I had the opportunity of riding in the jumpseat of a 763 years ago, and a very friendly crew explained some of the aircraft features, TCAS among them. Now, on the 767, traffic is displayed on the ND as a white diamond, next to the diamond is the indication of the altitude separation between the traffic and your airplane (in feet) and an arrow, pointing upwards if traffic is climbing, or downwards if it's descending. as you get closer to the traffic the display changes (forgive me but I don't remember exactly at what distance), first the diamond fills in, then its color changes from white to yellow and a "TRAFFIC" indication in caps is displayed next, finally the diamond changes to a square, it's displayed in red and the TCAS orders to "climb" or "descend".
I think this is likely the same way it works on the 737.

This is how traffic is displayed on the 737 ND



And this is the TCAS control on the transponder panel of a 737

If God had wanted men to fly he would have given them more money...
 
Gary2880
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:36 pm

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 38):
On a bit of a morbid note, Gol issued a statement shortly after the authorities confirmed there were no survivors. They will cover the costs of the funerals, plus medical, psychological and religious assistance, food, lodging and transportation for the families of the victims. A funeral home in São Paulo confirms they received an order from G3 for 155 caskets.

that sounds like alot!

are airlines normally so forth coming with generosity after a fatal crash?
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
swissy
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:53 pm

Here is a photo of the center section
Big version: Width: 180 Height: 247 File size: 16kb
 
photolppt
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:11 pm

http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/02/285929322.asp

First, my deepest condolences to all envolved.

Second, Brazilian newspaper O Globo now indicates that the two planes might had been handled at the moment of the collision by two diferent ATC centers (Manaus and Brasilia), and that the Manaus center cleared the Legacy to climb from FL350 to FL390 per pilot request without notifying the Brasilia center, which was handlind the GOL flight.

According to this article found here:
http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/mat/2006/10/02/285929322.asp

It appears the crash site is located at the border of both ATC centers...  Sad
 
EXC47
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:29 pm

The photo shows the wings and wing box upside down. In this case the left wing shows more damage, right ? Also the gear down and locked means that maybe the crew tried to brake the increasing speed and or stabilize the plane in a controllable descent. So far, everything is speculation, of course. We have until the investigation is over to learn the facts. Any thoughts ?
Just my 2c.
 
N701AA
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:26 pm

Why is there no fire damage on the wings? Where did the fuel go? Why it did not ignite on impact?
 
awthompson
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:27 pm

Referring to reply 46 (EXC47)

Hi, when I refer to the right wing I am looking at the front view of the aeroplane and I get what you mean.

We should really be referring to PORT and STARBOARD wings to avoid that confusion since "right" and "left" depend on ones perspective.

It is the PORT wing which seems to have the most damage based on the wing box wreckage photo shown above. You are correct.

It has been mentioned a number of times in PART 3 that the gear were likely lowered in an attempt to arrest speed in an otherwise uncontrollable dive. This may have been the only element of "control" left to the crew in the rapid descent.
 
EXC47
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RE: Gol PR-GTD Crashed While Running MAO-BSB! Part 4

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting Awthompson (Reply 48):
Hi, when I refer to the right wing I am looking at the front view of the aeroplane and I get what you mean.

We should really be referring to PORT and STARBOARD wings to avoid that confusion since "right" and "left" depend on ones perspective.

It is the PORT wing which seems to have the most damage based on the wing box wreckage photo shown above. You are correct.

It has been mentioned a number of times in PART 3 that the gear were likely lowered in an attempt to arrest speed in an otherwise uncontrollable dive. This may have been the only element of "control" left to the crew in the rapid descent

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