AeroMaxx
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F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:46 am

Howcome F9 chose Airbus over Boeing for their 737-300 replacement? Would it have been cheaper for F9 to order the 73G to replace the 733 so they wouldn't have to train the pilots to fly the A319? Did Airbus give F9 a good deal for the A318/A319s? Any info would be GREATLY appreciated!  Smile

P.S. Please do not turn this into an A vs B thread...  flamed 
 
futurecaptain
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting AeroMaxx (Thread starter):
Did Airbus give F9 a good deal for the A318/A319s?

Yes.

End of Discussion.
 Smile
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mariner
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:05 am

This is an old story, which has been posted here several times. This is pretty much how is was described by the then CEO of Frontier.

Frontier expected to go with Boeing for their fleet replacement. But in those days, Boeing wasn't very interested in a (small-ish) order from a relatively new LCC.

They told Frontier what planes they could have and how much they would to pay. The price was more than Frontier wanted, and Boeing would not cut a deal.

So Frontier went to Airbus - who almost showed 'em the door. Airbus said they were interested in being used just to get a lower price form Boeing.

In the end they worked it out, and Frontier got a better deal from Airbus than Boeing was offering. It was been a very happy relationship, and continues with the purchase of the A320's.

By lucky timing, Frontier also became the launch customer for the A318, and got a very good launch customer discount on the first five aircraft.

Somehting similar happened with Spirit Airlines. Boeing publicly said they would not even bid for the contract. So - again - it went to Airbus.

I believe tha since then the Boeing sales team have changed their attitude.

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 1):
End of Discussion.
 

Why?

 

mariner

[Edited 2006-10-02 02:06:28]
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zsx81
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:11 am

Would anyone happen to know what is the profit margin for Airbus and Boeing? How much money do they make from the sale of one A319 or 737
 
roseflyer
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
Somehting similar happened with Spirit Airlines. Boeing publicly said they would not even bid for the contract. So - again - it went to Airbus.

Interesting. Do you have a link or source for that? That seems like a horrible thing for the company to do. Investors would not be happy with that attitude unless there is a reason.
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mariner
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
Do you have a link or source for that?

I suppose it is on tape somewhere. (Ex CEO) Sam Addoms told the tale at either a sharehoders meeting or on one of the conference calls.

Obviously, a lot of shareholders where very interested as to why they went with Airbus.

There have been several threads about it - all archived now I guess - with others adding verious other details.

But you may recall, there was a big shake up at the Boeing sales department. It was thought the loss of the Easyjet order might have been the deciding factor in the change of attitude.

But I think - stress "think" - that the Spirit thing happened after Easyjet. There was quite a lot of press about it at the time. I remember being surprised that Boeing made the formal announcement not to tender.

mariner
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mariner
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
Do you have a link or source for that?

Here you go:

http://www.aero-news.net/Community/D...ussTopic.cfm?TopicID=974&Refresh=1

"We did not have any proposal with them," said Boeing spokeswoman Sandy Angers "It was decided early on not to pursue the business." Boeing cited "strategic reasons" for not going after a deal with Spirit.

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gigneil
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
Airbus said they were interested in being used just to get a lower price form Boeing.

Were NOT interested, rather.  Smile

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mariner
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
Were NOT interested, rather.  

Ooops! Thanks, N. Can't edit it - too late. But of course, youy are correct.

cheers

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jacobin777
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:22 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):

In the end they worked it out, and Frontier got a better deal from Airbus than Boeing was offering. It was been a very happy relationship, and continues with the purchase of the A320's.

I have to admit, the A319/A320's in F9 colours look beautiful..


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Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
Interesting. Do you have a link or source for that? That seems like a horrible thing for the company to do. Investors would not be happy with that attitude unless there is a reason.

That's is one of the reasons Phil Condit, 2 previous CEO's ago was shown the door.....at the time, they had a very poor sales team and lost out on a lot of potential contracts..

F9, B6, and AB were amongst some of the majour ones.....
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airfrnt
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):

Interesting. Do you have a link or source for that? That seems like a horrible thing for the company to do. Investors would not be happy with that attitude unless there is a reason.

It's very well known in the industry. Boeing really had the attitude that they wanted to cater to the legacy airlines. The legacy airlines at the point were competing against the smaller LCC upstarts, and Boeing believed it was better to cater to their existing large clients (The legacies) then to the upstart Low Cost Carriers.

They were wrong. The legacies completely dried up as a order source, while F9 and EasyJet have been solid performance
 
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antoniemey
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
I have to admit, the A319/A320's in F9 colours look beautiful..

Any plane in F9's colors looks beautiful.  Smile
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jacobin777
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 11):

Any plane in F9's colors looks beautiful. :0

I guess you are right.. Smile
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AeroMaxx
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:46 pm

What if Boeing did take up F9's order... what would have F9 picked? The 73G/738?
 
gregtx
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
Investors would not be happy with that attitude unless there is a reason.

As a Boeing shareholder (and no, not just a single share to get the annual report), the distinct reason for the Spirit debacle is that the margin was so low as be selling the aircraft at cost. While in theory, it would make sense to increase their market share, it was more prudent to allow those delivery positions be available for units that would allow a return---even if a marginal one. (it's not like the 737 needed to be introduced as a LLC plane...).

Boeing is run for profit. While market share is important--it is secondary to it's owner's share price and return on those shares.

Airbus has always had the price advantage because they hold the single largest advantage (and threat) over Boeing---that being the ability to build an aircraft at less cost. It's what makes these battles interesting
 
AirEMS
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 9):
I have to admit, the A319/A320's in F9 colours look beautiful..



Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 11):
Any plane in F9's colors looks beautiful.

I would love to see a set of F9 retro jet's (My favorite is the 1980's colors) even more so I would have loved to have seen a 752 in the 80's colors!! But alas I think that I never will.... I guess that I will hopefully have to settle for a A320  irked  Freeking Boeing

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futurecaptain
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 15):
I would love to see a set of F9 retro jet's (My favorite is the 1980's colors) even more so I would have loved to have seen a 752 in the 80's colors!!

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00000392
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mariner
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting AeroMaxx (Reply 13):
What if Boeing did take up F9's order... what would have F9 picked? The 73G/738?

In the case of Frontier, Boeing was either convinced they had the order, or certain that Frontier would not go anywhere else.

Tucked away in the archives, it is probable that Frontier still has copies of their old in-flight magazine.

At least one edition has a full page ad by Boeing - a 737NG in old Frontier colors - with a legend (from memory) "A proud bird with a beautiful tail." The text suggests that the new Boeing aircraft will be flying for Frontier.

The date would be around winter or early Spring 1999. Maybe someone has a copy somewhere.

Quoting Gregtx (Reply 14):
the distinct reason for the Spirit debacle is that the margin was so low as be selling the aircraft at cost.

Given there are always back room discussions, I am not sure how Boeing would have known. They never tendered for the order - see link above. How could they know their price would be an issue if they had not offered a price?

Spirit had just received a huge injection of capital - and some new management - anything was possible.

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WesternA318
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
So Frontier went to Airbus - who almost showed 'em the door. Airbus said they were interested in being used just to get a lower price form Boeing.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
Somehting similar happened with Spirit Airlines. Boeing publicly said they would not even bid for the contract. So - again - it went to Airbus.

Didnt the mighty Boeing also say the same thing when jetBlew came around?
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AeroMaxx
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 am

There is a photo on MAP that shows what a 738 would look like in the old F9 colors.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00000369

And here is what a 73G would look like in new F9 livery.

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00003918

Regards,

AeroMaxx

[Edited 2006-10-02 23:17:16]
 
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mariner
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting AeroMaxx (Reply 19):
And here is what a 73G would look like in new F9 livery.

I quite like the Tu-154, too, although the rego is in the wrong place and there is no US flag:

http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00002021

I've always had a secret hope that a US airline would order one of the Russian aircraft. I know that it isn't going to happen - at least, in my lifetime.  Smile

But the surprise at MAP is they have the A380, the DC-10 the B717 and the B757 in Frontier livery - none of which are going to happen - and they don't have the A320 in Frontier livery.

And the A320 is going to happen. In about 14 months.

 confused 

mariner
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David_itl
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting Gregtx (Reply 14):
Boeing is run for profit.

And Airbus is run for losses?
 
JetBlueAUS
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:00 am

Mariner,

I thought it had something to do with American's large 738 order at the time... and Frontier (if they ordered Boeing) wouldn't get their planes when they wanted. Or something along those lines. Though - I heard that that was a rumor so I wouldn't be surprised if it was untrue.

[Edited 2006-10-03 00:03:25]
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mariner
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 22):
I thought it had something to do with American's large 738 at the time

I assume you mean "Boeing's large 738", not "American's large 738" but you might have put your finger on the revisionism that goes on.  Smile

There were other 737 models apart from the 738 (too much aircraft), such as the 700, a backbone of Southwest's fleet.

The 738 would not have been on Frontier's original (and subsequent) shopping list, just as the A320 was not - too much aircraft.

Remembering too that Frontier bought the much maligned A318 in that original order, stayed with it and ordered more, and more again.

I believe the direct Boeing equivalent is the much maligned 737-600.

If Frontier's order had gone to Boeing, it is possible (probable) that the 737-600 would have been in there as well.

mariner
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JetBlueAUS
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
I assume you mean "Boeing's large 738", not "American's large 738" but you might have put your finger on the revisionism that goes on.

Sorry man, I typed it out wrong. I revised it to be "American's large 738 order." See - I had heard that the reason why Frontier didn't settle its orders with Boeing was because AA had ordered a large number of Boeing 737-800's and the 737 manufacturing was maxed out at Boeing. If Frontier were to order Boeing - they wouldn't get their planes when they wanted.

[Edited 2006-10-03 01:15:55]
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mariner
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 24):
I had heard that the reason why Frontier didn't settle its orders with Boeing was because AA had ordered a large number of Boeing 737-800's and the 737 manufacturing was maxed out a Boeing.

That's the revisionism I meant. The same is now (sometimes) said about the JetBlue A320 order.

If Boeing could not supply the aircraft, why did they take the ad in the Frontier mag?

Obviously, Boeing thought they could supply 'em, and they had no trouble with the Ryanair order, soon after, for many, many planes.

I'll stay with what the then Frontier CEO said. He was there. I guess he knew. And, as he pointed out, there was some debate inside Frontier as to whether they should order a "foreign" aircraft.

 Smile

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jacobin777
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting AirEMS (Reply 15):
Freeking Boeing

The got what they deserved.... Wink
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AirEMS
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 16):
http://www.cardatabase.net/modifieda...earch/photo_search.php?id=00000392

I've seen that one before it was my computer wall paper for a while I would have liked to have seen on for real..... but thanks for the link anywho


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gregtx
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RE: F9 And Boeing?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 17):
Given there are always back room discussions, I am not sure how Boeing would have known. They never tendered for the order - see link above. How could they know their price would be an issue if they had not offered a price?

They were clear on what the order of magnitude had to be in order to get the amount of airframes Spirit was seeking. If Boeing thought there was a chance to turn a profit---they would have done it (submitted the bid).

Quoting David_itl (Reply 21):
And Airbus is run for losses?

If you took the time to read the post, you'd see that Airbus can manufacture for less cost, hence, sell for less money--and still make a profit. And you're in banking, right????

There was no reason for Boeing to submit any solid offer after the initial RFQ was issues/released/leaked.

It appears Spirit is happy with their Airbuses...and Boeing is likely happy to have airframes move at a profit. Seems like a good decision for both.