JAM747
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When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 12:42 pm

I have seen on here comments about future fleet plans of major international carriers. However, I notice not too much comments about SA. I know they have a beautiful A340 fleet which are probably young but does anyone know any thing about SA future fleet update plans? or is too early. I was happy to hear that SA will be preserving another 747, I hope one day we will see a 747-8 in their colors. Thank you.
 
LawnDart
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting JAM747 (Thread starter):
I know they have a beautiful A340 fleet which are probably young but does anyone know any thing about SA future fleet update plans? or is too early.

Between the A340s, the A320s and the 73NGs, I think SA has done a pretty good job of renewing their fleet already. Just a replacement for the 747s, and they should be well taken care of after that. I think your idea of the 748 is pretty good, but I don't see them being the first to order the pax version.
 
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BreninTW
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:09 pm

SA has stated it's desire to become all-Airbus (but that may well have changed, originally the 744's were supposed to be gone last year, but they're still there)
 
centrair
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:36 pm

There was a link posted the other day about a Boeing Presentation that mentioned the 787-10. The front cover of the presentation was of Cape Town.

I read a little bit and it seemed to be a presentation geared toward sales in Africa. I don't know if SA would go for the 787-8 but maybe they might look at the 772LR, 748i or 787-10 for further US expansion and replacement of 744s.
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Leskova
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:11 pm

At current, SAA is most likely much more interested in getting it's finances under control again, which is also why they cancelled some of their A320-series deliveries a while back.

I wouldn't expect any aircraft orders from them for the time being - which isn't really necessary anyhow, as their fleet is quite modern and in no need to be replaced anyhow.
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Leezyjet
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:10 pm

Depends who is in control of the airline.

After the fiasco of the last few years when they ordered Airbus, then changed to Boeing when that septic tank was in charge for a while, only to go back to Airbus again must have cost the airline a fortune !!.

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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:39 pm

I still think they should get rid of the A342s, and get the highest MTOW A332 version (262 tonnes???) Will do CPT/JNB non-stop to Europe. Use the A346s to LHR, IAD, JFK and FRA, and A332s on the rest. When they get their A343s back off Jet, they can use them on the A346 routes. Perhaps get four or five A388s, and use them on the LHR run. All A319/320 short-haul fleet.
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MCOflyer
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
When they get their A343s back off Jet,

Thats how their making money. The A342's defintely need replacement and you have a variety of a/c that can replace them. I don't know how many, but 10 A332 should do it.

MCOflyer
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SA7700
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
I still think they should get rid of the A342s,

The entire A342 fleet’s J-class is being upgraded to flatbeds, with the last refitted bird expected out before year end. With this in mind I doubt you will see any A330’s in SA colours soon.

The airline is financially not in a very favorable position to obtain further planes at this stage. Word is also out that the airline is in no hurry to get rid of the remaining 6x 744’s currently in service with the airline.


Rgds

SA7700
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Leskova
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 7):
but 10 A332 should do it.

Since they only have 6 A340-200s, that would be more than they need.

I agree that A332s would most likely be better for them, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon... just as with A380s (which they certainly could fill rather easily on some routes), which I do not expect to see in SAA ordering for several years, if, indeed, at all...  Sad

As for the short-haul fleet, I certainly would prefer it if they'd standardize on the A319/A320 - but I don't expect any change before the leases on the B738s run out... although... wasn't there something about GATX getting out of the leasing business? I think that's who SAA leases from... maybe that'll influence the whole thing as well...
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TR1
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:44 pm

Apart from JNB/CPT to London, on what routes are the 747-400s used on?
 
Leskova
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting TR1 (Reply 10):
Apart from JNB/CPT to London, on what routes are the 747-400s used on?

I think HARDIW just posted a couple of days ago that they'll be used to GRU soon.
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SA7700
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting TR1 (Reply 10):
Apart from JNB/CPT to London, on what routes are the 747-400s used on?

JNB-LOS
JNB-LAD
JNB-GRU


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SA7700
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Leskova
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:33 pm

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 12):
JNB-LAD

 Wow!

Is that used as a time-filler between longhauls? Or a reaction to TAAG using B747s on the Jo'burg route? Or is demand really that high?
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warren747sp
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:55 pm

the demand between JNB-LAD is extremely high. All the flights on Angola or SAA are always over sold. There is a huge demand for transit passengers from GRU going to Angola. Angola and Brazil remains extremely close due to the former colonial influence with language and culture.
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SA7700
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 13):
Or is demand really that high?

Some dates in December on SA (JNB-LAD) are already sold out to such an extent that only full Y-fares are available. IMHO USD1100 per Y-class pax for a 2485km flight is not too shabby in terms of revenue.


Rgds

SA7700
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NZ8800
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:41 pm

That's fascinating about Luanda... I'm far away from Africa but that city and country have so many travel warnings on them from various governments... maybe it is safer than it is portrayed to be? Otherwise I can't see why so many people would go... Perhaps someone can enlighten me!
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karan69
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:44 pm

I have one question ??--
why do they operate both A319/320s as well as 737-800s in their fleet would not that make the crew costs real expensive.--how many of each do they operate.[Sorry if this has already been discussed before--if so please direct me to that thread as it dint come up in a search]

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 8):
The entire A342 fleet’s J-class is being upgraded to flatbeds, with the last refitted bird expected out before year end. With this in mind I doubt you will see any A330’s in SA colours soon.

Thanks for the information on the update--could you also be kind enough to tell us if the economy class cabin will be upgraded with PTVs or is it just a Biz class upgrade.

Karan
 
Leskova
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 17):
why do they operate both A319/320s as well as 737-800s in their fleet would not that make the crew costs real expensive.

It's a result of several acquisitions - before the fleet modernisation began, SAA had a fleet of B732s and A320s; they then decided that they wanted to buy around 20 120-to-180-seaters... ending up with a fleet of B738s.

Then, after a change of CEO, the decision was taken to have a complete fleet-rollover to Airbus, thus replacing the B732s and B738s with A319-A321s (though I'm not absolutely certain they had A321s on order, though I think I remember something about that type also being ordered).

In any case, management problems at SAA continued, and one CEO later, the decision was taken that taking deliveries of all ordered Airbusses would, currently, simply be too expensive for SAA, so some deliveries were cancelled (or deferred), leaving SAA with a fleet of A319s/A320s and B732s/B738s (though I think the B732s are either already completely gone, or very close to being gone).
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SA7700
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 17):
Thanks for the information on the update--could you also be kind enough to tell us if the economy class cabin will be upgraded with PTVs or is it just a Biz class upgrade.

Y-class will remain in the old LH-config with no changes. The only changes being made are in J-class.

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 17):
why do they operate both A319/320s as well as 737-800s in their fleet would not that make the crew costs real expensive.--how many of each do they operate.[Sorry if this has already been discussed before--if so please direct me to that thread as it dint come up in a search]

SA took delivery of and currently operate 21x 738's and 11x A319's. IIRC the A320's were cancelled mainly due to the airline's massive fuel hedging losses at that time.


Rgds

SA7700
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jfk777
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:52 am

SA has 738 because in the early 1990 SAA ordered 777's, they were never delivered. SAA ordered Airbus A340's instead. The deposits from the 777 was going to stay with Boeing with no benefit to SAA so the money was applied to the 738 fleet. This all happened when SWISSAIR owned a minority of SAA because 738 are(were) leased from FLIGHTLEASE, a subsidiary of Swissair group. Swissair went bankrupt and sold their stake back to the South African Government.
 
speedbird128
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:14 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 20):
SA has 738 because...

... Coleman Andrews was CEO at the time... SAA got rid of everything with Airbus on it... The A320's were fine for SAA. They had 6 (ZS-SHA/B/C/D/E/F/G).
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
jfk777
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:57 pm

Speedbird 128,

Coleman Andrews was CEO and did get rid of the First bunch of A320 before the much bigger order to Airbus the whole fleet was made. The business about the deposits was from a book written "JETLAG" by Denis Beckett describing the Coleman Andres era fron 1998 to 2001 at SAA. The deposit was for $30,000,000 dollars, for 4 777. the deposit would have been Boeing on 12/31/00 if the 737-800 were not ordered.
 
speedbird128
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:11 pm

JFK777,

At the end of the day - many, many millions were wasted, by an airline that hardly is ever (if ever) out of the red. Just look at the mess with their involvement with Air Tanzania.

30mil deposit for the 777's converted to 19 738s? Hardly a big percentage, and to be honest, if SAA lost that 30million to Boeing by not taking those 777's, the airline would have save much more than by taking the -800's, and then going on to get A319's (and ordering and then cancelling the A320's). The Airbus spares, pilot ratings & aircraft engineer ratings and sim would probably have amounted to more.

Somebody was on the make. They could rather have negotiated for using the deposit against an additional 744. Or it could have been used for the BBJ the Gov went on to get.

But anyway, I am not a CEO of an airline, merely a person of which 40% of my salary is used by the goverment to fund the mistakes (?) of others lining their nest.
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
Johnny
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:40 pm

What should be the advantage of replacing 257tons A342s with 233tons A332s?

The A342 in combination with the A343/346 is not that bad in ops costs at all.

AND you do not need ETOPS on the european routes!!!

 Smile
 
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N328KF
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:43 pm

I'm guessing SA would want their next move to be an A380 order. However, I don't see that happening any time soon.  Wink
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 24):
What should be the advantage of replacing 257tons A342s with 233tons A332s?

The A342 in combination with the A343/346 is not that bad in ops costs at all.

AND you do not need ETOPS on the european routes!!!

Far lower fuel burn and associated trip costs with the A330??
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
kappel
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RE: New Cathay Pacific F/J/Y Seats Announced

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:20 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 25):
I'm guessing SA would want their next move to be an A380 order. However, I don't see that happening any time soon

There was some talk a while ago that they wanted to lease 2 (IIRC) a380's. So who knows what might happen when the damn thing finally enters service. About the a342 vs. the a332 I guess it really depends on wether they need the extra payload (thus range) and what the operating costs are of the a342's. For example if they are leased, what are the prices? I'm guessing much lower than a332 lease prices. And if they are owned, it probably is cheaper to keep them a while, and later replace them with 787's or a350's.

[Edited 2006-10-03 17:22:43]
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Johnny
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:20 am

@CHRISBA777ER

YES, BUT ALSO LESS PAYLOAD...

But i agree.The A332 could work for them.AFAIK the has one or two already ops by BMI.

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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:26 am

Pax capacity will be the same as the A332, and the 260T A332 wont lose much to the A342 over a Europe - SA sector.

But like Keppel says, ownership costs will be lower.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
SA7700
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 28):
But i agree.The A332 could work for them.AFAIK the has one or two already ops by BMI.

The A332's was wet leased (IIRC) from BD in 2004. The planes have since been returned to BD.


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SA7700
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Johnny
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:30 am

"Pax capacity will be the same as the A332, and the 260T A332 wont lose much to the A342 over a Europe - SA sector. "

Chris, there is no 260tons-version - a 333tons-version is the maximum.That is all you can order from Airbus.


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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 31):
"Pax capacity will be the same as the A332, and the 260T A332 wont lose much to the A342 over a Europe - SA sector. "

Chris, there is no 260tons-version - a 333tons-version is the maximum.That is all you can order from Airbus.

I thought they came as 252, 256, and 260 t versions.

*scratchy head*

How have i got confused with that?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Johnny
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:39 am

Hmm, no idea.

Maybe i am wrong, but i thought:

217,230,233tons...

Who can help us, please ?


johnny  Smile
 
Leskova
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:49 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 33):
Who can help us, please ?

Airbus seems to agree with you...

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...0a340/a330-300/specifications.html
http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfam...0a340/a330-200/specifications.html

Both pages list a MTOW of 233 tonnes (metric).
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swissgabe
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 2):
SA has stated it's desire to become all-Airbus (but that may well have changed, originally the 744's were supposed to be gone last year, but they're still there)

Two 744 left the fleet around January 2006. If not mistaken, they are going to CX as Cargo plane.

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
I still think they should get rid of the A342s

Depending on the route, 342 are much cheaper to operate then 332/333/343/346s

Quoting SA7700 (Reply 12):
Quoting TR1 (Reply 10):
Apart from JNB/CPT to London, on what routes are the 747-400s used on?

JNB-LOS

that flight goes JNB-LOS-ACC-JNB for the moment.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 13):
Is that used as a time-filler between longhauls? Or a reaction to TAAG using B747s on the Jo'burg route? Or is demand really that high?

yes, it is. the route is restricted to both carriers to operate 3 times weekly only and thats why it is flown with the biggest plane available.
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SAA201
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Swissgabe (Reply 35):
that flight goes JNB-LOS-ACC-JNB for the moment.

Negative, the flight (SA060/1) operates JNB-LOS-JNB on days 2,3,5&7!

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 22):
The deposit was for $30,000,000 dollars, for 4 777. the deposit would have been Boeing on 12/31/00 if the 737-800 were not ordered.

IIRC the 777 deposits were used to buy 2 the GE engined B744's (ZS-SBK&S) which were built for Phillipines and not taken up.
 
B747-437B
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting SAA201 (Reply 36):
Negative, the flight (SA060/1) operates JNB-LOS-JNB on days 2,3,5&7!

ACC is now paired with ABJ routing JNB-ABJ-ACC-JNB on days 1,3,5 using an A342. The 744 hasn't been seen in ACC since the IAD flight was moved to DKR - and ACC/LOS have not been paired by SAA anytime in recent memory. They have paired ACC/ABJ, ACC/IAD and LOS/ABJ but never ACC/LOS.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
SAA201
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:13 pm

Stumbled upon this article today:
Long-haul flights need more planes - SAA boss

http://www.busrep.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=561&fArticleId=3471137
 
kappel
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RE: When Will SA Need To Renew It's Fleet?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:29 pm

Quoting SAA201 (Reply 38):
Stumbled upon this article today:
Long-haul flights need more planes - SAA boss

Well, airbus has some a346's they would like to sell at rock-bottom prices... Not only will EK most likely never take delivery of them, neither will Aerolineas Argentinas.
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