WINGS
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Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:46 pm

Airbus is studying a bigger version of its largest A350 XWB variant, the -1000, to improve its competitiveness against the Boeing 777. But the manufacturer may be forced to delay the formal launch of the entire A350 XWB family as it battles with the more pressing problems that surround the A380.

As unveiled at the Farnborough air show in July, the A350-1000 will seat 350 passengers in a three-class configuration – around 15 fewer seats than the largest 777 variant, the -300ER – with service entry set for 2014. But according to airline sources, Airbus is studying a larger A350-1000, partly due to pressure from Lufthansa, which is evaluating the A350 along with the Boeing 787 for its long-haul fleet needs. The larger -1000 could compete more effectively with the -300ER, and extend the trip cost advantage over the baseline 777-200ER.



http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+on+A350+XWB+formal+launch+at.html



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Wings
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2wingtips
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:53 pm

And be launched when? 2020?

Here we go again, the A350 goes through another round of reincarnation.
 
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PM
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:57 pm

It always amazes me how Airbus and Boeing end up having to modify their planes (usually make them bigger) after their initial announcement. I assume they talk exhaustively to airlines to see what the market wants before they go public. Then they do go public and immediately the airlines (presumably the same ones they were speaking to earlier) tell them to make it bigger or give it more range or whatever.

It happened to the 787. It happened to the 747-8. Now it's happening to the XWB.

I really don't get it.

Still, good news for Airbus (in the long run) and for RR (I assume) if this bigger, better version is launched.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:00 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 1):
Here we go again, the A350 goes through another round of reincarnation.

Didn't see any comments in the article regarding re-designs of the A350-900 - the launch variant.

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 1):
And be launched when? 2020?

Therefore I don't see this particular news (which is just a study BTW) impacting the 2012 launch date at all.

FWIW, Boeing are still (according to todays Flight International) playing around with the length and weight of the 748i, which is already launched and has a customer.
And I'm fairly comfortable with that (1 year AFTER launch....).

Thanks for the link WINGS  checkmark 

Regards
 
2wingtips
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:12 pm

Sorry Astuteman, I couldn't resist the jibe after all the derivatives and changes of the A350 program over the last 2 or so years. Tinkering is fine as long as the product is basically solid. The 787 does appear to be a solid product. I'm not so sure on the A350. EK haven't yet engaged with Airbus or seen a formal A350 presentation and they want to buy around 100 787/350. That's strange IMO.
You correctly point out what FI did not; that the 350-900 is the launch model and not the -800.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:24 pm

I dont think it should have come to any surprise that the 350 line have a 332/333/342/343 replacement as well as a 346 replacement.

I was half expecting the a 350 fuse with the 346 length, giving slightly larger capacity than the 773ER. Maybe that will come.
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EI321
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:28 pm

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 4):
The 787 does appear to be a solid product. I'm not so sure on the A350.

Your jumping the gun, we wont really know how capable A350 is until its launched and we have the specs. In anycase, they are both very similar planes. If the A350 is not a solid product SQ would not have picked it.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:38 pm

Apology not neccesary, but accepted anyway, 2wingtips  Smile

Quoting 2wingtips (Reply 4):
You correctly point out what FI did not; that the 350-900 is the launch model and not the -800.

Thanks for this, although this comment still puzzles me, as the article related to the -1000 - the last pax variant in the timeline, and not the -800  Smile.
Not to worry.

I'm sure most of these designs get "tinkered" with until the last minute, as the airframers try to get as close to the latest demands from the airlines as possible (as with the 748i at this time).

Regards
 
2wingtips
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:40 pm

I'm talking about current perception in the marketplace. The 787 is the undeniable leader here over the A350. The A350's capabilities may very well change with time. The rumblings that 350 delays are imminent due to Airbus putting more resources into the 380 are worrying for the 350 IMO. Airbus don't really want to lose much more time getting a viable 787 competitor into revenue service IMO. I wouldn't be so sure about SQ. They would have signed on performance guarantees and watertight get-out clauses, as well as brokering a very favourable financial deal. The marketplace does not appear to have been inundated with formal A350XWB proposals and EK persistently say they have heard nothing from Airbus in this regard, even though they are 6 to 12 months away from ordering around 100 787/350.
 
wingman
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:57 pm

Well, the article at least makes one thing clear-LH is desperate to not take any passenger aircraft from Boeing ever again. I think some of us have understood this for a long time so it still shocks me to see long threads debating Boeing's chances. They're absolutely nil folks. Cargo jets maybe, but passenger jets never again. Airbus is LH's sole source provider on that front.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:07 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
It always amazes me how Airbus and Boeing end up having to modify their planes (usually make them bigger) after their initial announcement. I assume they talk exhaustively to airlines to see what the market wants before they go public. Then they do go public and immediately the airlines (presumably the same ones they were speaking to earlier) tell them to make it bigger or give it more range or whatever.

It happened to the 787. It happened to the 747-8. Now it's happening to the XWB.

I really don't get it.

Airbus and Boeing want to distinguish their products from each other but the airlines want them to be interchangable because to the extent they are interchangable, they compete purely on price and the airlines get optimal deals at the expense of the manufacturers. To the extent that the products are differentiated, they compete on factors other than price, resulting in higher margins for Airbus and Boeing at the expense of the airlines (and passengers). This sets up a conundrum of Airbus and Boeing having a good business reason to not give their customers exactly what they are asking for. This is one reason why it takes so long for Airbus and Boeing to decide on exact configurations.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
I dont think it should have come to any surprise that the 350 line have a 332/333/342/343 replacement as well as a 346 replacement.

I was half expecting the a 350 fuse with the 346 length, giving slightly larger capacity than the 773ER. Maybe that will come.

Good insight Zeke! I would be surprised if Airbus didn't eventually offer an A350 model with at least the capacity of the A340-600. The tricky part is that an A350 larger than the A340-600 would offer substantially lower CASM than the WhaleJet and kill it off the same way the B787-10 will kill off the B777-300ER.

Quoting EI321 (Reply 6):
If the A350 is not a solid product SQ would not have picked it.

SQ have signed a firm order for the B787, but they have signed only a LoI for the A350. We'll have to wait and see whether or not SQ firm their A350 order. An order for both types is possible.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:09 pm

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
Well, the article at least makes one thing clear-LH is desperate to not take any passenger aircraft from Boeing ever again.

 Yeah sure

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
I think some of us have understood this for a long time so it still shocks me to see long threads debating Boeing's chances.

Some of you still haven't understood that LH orders the aircraft which suits most. The A320 was ordered when Boeing only offered an inderior B737, the A340 was ordered as a DC-10 replacement when Boeing's B777 was years away. After these key orders LH increased these families (A319, A321, A330, A346) - adding competing Boeing types wouldn't have been rational.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
They're absolutely nil folks. Cargo jets maybe, but passenger jets never again.

They're folks who know how to run a very profitable and respected airline.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
Airbus is LH's sole source provider on that front.

 Yeah sure


PH
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Thorben
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:13 pm

My thought has always been that Airbus should make two large A350 variants that both have a larger wing than the -800/900. The larger ones shouldhave aroung 66m of wingspan and be 71 and 76m long.
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:18 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 12):
My thought has always been that Airbus should make two large A350 variants that both have a larger wing than the -800/900.

Why? Do you know how much it costs to develop a wing?
 
Rj111
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
The tricky part is that an A350 larger than the A340-600 would offer substantially lower CASM than the WhaleJet and kill it off the same way the B787-10 will kill off the B777-300ER.

I hope you're not considering sunk costs there Zvedza? Big grin
 
Thorben
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 13):
Why? Do you know how much it costs to develop a wing?

The idea is that the additional cost come back through sales when you have a competitive product. Better than doing it the cheap way and not selling. Look at the A346 for example, basically too long for its fuselage width, and I doubt Airbus will get the 3 billions it spent for development back. Same with the A318, too large for its capacity, a plane with a 5-across fuselage would have done better. Now it looks like they'll not deliver more than 100 of either type. Does that pay off?

I'm just afraid that one set of wings won't be sufficient for planes with lengths from 58 to 73m. The A359 with 64m length could do fine, but the A358 and A3510 could do badly.
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zvezda
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:33 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 14):
I hope you're not considering sunk costs there Zvedza?

Please explain. What do sunk costs have to do with it? A B787-10 would have substantially lower CASM than the B777-300ER and thereby kill it. An A350 with more capacity than the A340-600 would have substantially lower CASM than the WhaleJet and thereby kill it. Airlines will almost always choose the smaller plane if it has both sufficient range and a lower or equal CASM than a larger model. (Some here have referred to this as Zvezda's Law.)
 
Johnny
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:38 pm

That looks good for Airbus , but not for Boeing.

A bigger -1000 would not only kill the B777-300ER, it would also put more pressure on potential B748I-sales!

It is not the same size, but it will attack that new B747 from the lower end with much better CASM.

There are a lot of airlines which could better buy that new version instead of buying a seperate airplane type.

 Smile
 
katekebo
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:48 pm

I think there are two reasons for which the A350 is growing in size:

1) Airbus knows that the B787 is more advanced and has superior economics than equivalent sized smaller versions of the A350. Consequently, the smaller A350s will have hard time gaining market share against smaller B787 versions, so Airbus is sizing the A350 up to avoid a direct confrontation.

2) Airbus knows that they have a huge gap in their product line-up between the original, smaller A350 and the A380 (for any practical purpose the A340-600 is dead by now), so sizing the A350 up makes sense from their product line-up standpoint.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
I doubt Airbus will get the 3 billions it spent for development back.

Most of that was spent on the new wing.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
I'm just afraid that one set of wings won't be sufficient for planes with lengths from 58 to 73m.

If there was a chance of selling several thousand, it would make sense to spend the additional billions to have two different wings that were better optimized for different missions or fuselage lengths. However, if there is only the chance of selling several hundred, then it is clearly better to keep development costs down by having one compromise wing. Prospective A350 sales are somewhere in between where it's not obvious to me that two wings are justified.

Quoting Johnny (Reply 17):
A bigger -1000 would not only kill the B777-300ER, it would also put more pressure on potential B748I-sales!

It is not the same size, but it will attack that new B747 from the lower end with much better CASM.

 checkmark  Much better CASM is probably an overstatement, but the smaller airliner (if it has sufficient range) only needs equal or lower CASM to win over a larger airliner. An A350 with the length of the A340-600 should have substantially (perhaps as much as 5 to 10%) lower CASM than the B787-8.
 
Johnny
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:07 pm

@Zvezda

I believe if Airbus goes ahead with that version, it will kill the B748I...

...and will put pressure to Boeing to improve their B777-300ER very quickly.

It could be THE perfect B744-Replacement for Lufthansa

You wrote:
"The tricky part is that an A350 larger than the A340-600 would offer substantially lower CASM than the WhaleJet and kill it off "

Zvezda, its EIS is 7 years later, so everybody would be concerned if the CASM wouldn´be better!

[Edited 2006-10-02 15:22:52]
 
Rj111
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
Please explain. What do sunk costs have to do with it?

I'm pretty certain you know full well what i'm talking about but I'll spell it out. You stated....

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 10):
The tricky part is that an A350 larger than the A340-600 would offer substantially lower CASM than the WhaleJet and kill it off

The A380s costs are already sunk so why would it matter if you kill it off but make more money selling A350-"600"s?

Relax though, It was a semi-humourous remark.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 21):
I'm pretty certain you know full well what i'm talking about

I really wasn't sure.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 21):
The A380s costs are already sunk so why would it matter if you kill it off but make more money selling A350-"600"s?

You're right. It doesn't matter. The question is whether or not Airbus expect to be more profitable if they do or do not develop such a large A350. What they've already spent in the past is not relevant.

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 21):
Relax though, It was a semi-humourous remark.

I wish I had gotten it.  blush 
 
CHIFLYGUY
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:48 pm

When it comes to the A350, Airbus has basically been throwing numbers at the wall to see what sticks. I have no doubt that they would promise anyone nearly anything to sell that thing, but can they deliver it? That's the question. Airbus' over-promising on the A380 got them into trouble bigtime.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 23):
When it comes to the A350, Airbus has basically been throwing numbers at the wall to see what sticks. I have no doubt that they would promise anyone nearly anything to sell that thing, but can they deliver it? That's the question. Airbus' over-promising on the A380 got them into trouble bigtime.

I think Airbus have learned from that mistake. The top people who made undeliverable promises about the WhaleJet are gone. I see no reason to expect the same for the A350.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:55 pm

Quoting Johnny (Reply 20):
believe if Airbus goes ahead with that version, it will kill the B748I...
...and will put pressure to Boeing to improve their B777-300ER very quickly.
It could be THE perfect B744-Replacement for Lufthansa

Agreed, if Lufthansa is willing to wait that long. Also note that if the A350-1000+XWB is the B744 replacement, where does that leave A380?
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
Johnny
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:00 pm

@TeamAmerica

"...where does that leave A380?"

On Top of it !


 Wink
 
StickShaker
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
1) Airbus knows that the B787 is more advanced and has superior economics than equivalent sized smaller versions of the A350. Consequently, the smaller A350s will have hard time gaining market share against smaller B787 versions, so Airbus is sizing the A350 up to avoid a direct confrontation.

 checkmark 
The 350 is also much more competitive against the 772/3 then the 787.
Airbus also had little choice in upsizing the 350 to 773 size after the mauling the 346 received from the 773ER in sales.

Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
I'm just afraid that one set of wings won't be sufficient for planes with lengths from 58 to 73m. The A359 with 64m length could do fine, but the A358 and A3510 could do badly.

Its also quite a large range to cover with one engine - will be interesting to see how they do it.

Cheers,
StickShaker
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 23):
When it comes to the A350, Airbus has basically been throwing numbers at the wall to see what sticks. I have no doubt that they would promise anyone nearly anything to sell that thing, but can they deliver it? That's the question. Airbus' over-promising on the A380 got them into trouble bigtime.

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting Johnny (Reply 17):
That looks good for Airbus , but not for Boeing.

A bigger -1000 would not only kill the B777-300ER, it would also put more pressure on potential B748I-sales!

Somehow Johnny I doubt it. The reality is that even if Airbus manage to build a twin as good or even better than the 777-300ER it will be introduced so long into the future that the market will be saturated with 77Ws and they won't introduce sub fleets they will await the composite Y3.

The A350-1000 beating the 77W on payload uplift on 40K less thrust (95K RRs v 115K GEs on 77W... I don't think so.

The biggest problem for Airbus is the fact that Boeing has a huge order backlog for 787. They can go into 787/A350 contests with a sharper pencil making it difficult for A to recover developement costs. Airbus will win contests with the A350 but Airlines will use Boeing to negotiate a good price.
 
beech19
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 2):
It happened to the 787. It happened to the 747-8. Now it's happening to the XWB.

I really don't get it.

See... the manufacturers THINK they are building a plane to sell but in reality they are being told what to build by the airliners (smart business). Things have surely changed in the past 20 years.

Quoting Wingman (Reply 9):
They're absolutely nil folks. Cargo jets maybe, but passenger jets never again. Airbus is LH's sole source provider on that front.

And you are the LH president right? Cause i'm pretty sure that is the only person who could make such a definitive comment. You seem extremely guaranteeing in that statement. Can you back it up? I doubt it... or do you just use a magic 8 ball?
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TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:38 pm

 point  This Flight Global article also says:

Quote:
"Meanwhile, industry sources say that the October launch target set at the A350XWB's Farnborough unveiling could now slip into next year as the bulk of Airbus's engineering resources have been deployed into resolving the ongoing A380 production delays."

I know there is another thread discussing delayed EIS, but this is the first I've heard of the launch being delayed. Yet another delay!?!
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting Beech19 (Reply 30):
And you are the LH president right? Cause i'm pretty sure that is the only person who could make such a definitive comment. You seem extremely guaranteeing in that statement. Can you back it up? I doubt it... or do you just use a magic 8 ball?

I would have to agree with you. LH would look at everything on the market for its business if it wants to stay in business.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:56 pm

Delaying the A350XWB is dangerous. The longer they put things off, the more time it buys the 777 variants, and the closer it brings them to having to face Y3.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
I think there are two reasons for which the A350 is growing in size:

There might be a third, like "Airlines are asking Airbus for it".....  Smile

Regards
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting PM (Reply 2):

It happened to the 787. It happened to the 747-8. Now it's happening to the XWB.

Not really with the 787. Boeing's 787-8 with 300 orders hasn't really changed since launch, and is responsible 75% of the overall 787 orders. Boeing has looked at going all the way to the -10, but nothing so far.

I am actually disappointed with this news. I was impressed when Airbus finally bit the bullet on the last 350 concept. But as someone pointed out then, the A350 was effectively stretched as far as possible to be able to target the whole market between the 787-9 (it doesn't even directly compete with the 787-8, Boeing's most successful model) and the 772.

I really doubt (because of aeronautics, not engineering skill) that you can stretch the 350 any farther then it already is with the 350-1000 and still get a efficient frame. I believe that it might be a stretch to far. Now they might be talking about adding a few rows, in which case it may be fine. But Airbus may be getting trapped in trying to be all things to all people, with the exception of the original 787-8 model which is what is killing them in the first place!!
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Airbus is studying a bigger version of its largest A350 XWB variant, the -1000, to improve its competitiveness against the Boeing 777.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
I dont think it should have come to any surprise that the 350 line have a 332/333/342/343 replacement as well as a 346 replacement.

Well it makes sense, as the A350-1000 is smaller in cabin floor area to both the A346 (~5%) and the 773ER (~10%). And with a little more length, a 787-10 would equal the current A350-1000's CFA.

I understand CFA is not the "end-all, be-all" of measurements, but with the 777-300ER having a payload/capacity advantage and a slightly larger 787-10 equalling the payload/capacity and probably having a CASM advantage would make the pair a serious threat to the current A350-1000 program - especially since both models will be available before the A3510.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 16):
A B787-10 would have substantially lower CASM than the B777-300ER and thereby kill it.

Yet it won't have the same capacity, so the 773ER might have the inside shot due to being available some five-years earlier and the ability to meet high-traffic demands.
 
zvezda
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 34):
I really doubt (because of aeronautics, not engineering skill) that you can stretch the 350 any farther then it already is with the 350-1000 and still get a efficient frame. I believe that it might be a stretch to far.

I'm hoping that the switch from rivets to laser welding will provide an increase in rigidity that combined with the increased cross section of the A350 relative to the A340 allows for reasonable structural efficiency at 75 meter lengths. I realize it won't have the rigidity of a CFRP fuselage and that a 75 meter B787 would be technically easier.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 35):
Yet it won't have the same capacity, so the 773ER might have the inside shot due to being available some five-years earlier and the ability to meet high-traffic demands.

For any real world demand curve, it would be more profitable to operate a 560,000 lbs B787-10 than a B777-300ER in passenger ops. Cargo might skew things toward the B777-300ER. The main advantage of the B777-300ER is earlier availability.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 36):
For any real world demand curve, it would be more profitable to operate a 560,000 lbs B787-10 than a B777-300ER in passenger ops. Cargo might skew things toward the B777-300ER. The main advantage of the B777-300ER is earlier availability.

Boeing will do everything in there power to "not kill" the 777-300ER any sooner then absolutely necessary. They dragged their feet with the 787-9, so that it wouldn't kill the 777-2er/lr too soon, and you can bet your bottom that they won't make the -10 available for delivery until they feel they will lose the order to Airbus.

They could certainly talk about it with the airlines, but why actually sign a contract with a delivery date until you absolutely have too. With the A350 potentially sliding to the right, you might say with it goes the 787-10... to the right.

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osiris30
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:30 am

Just got a wire story apparently Morgan Stanely is reporting the restructing could affect 350 EIS again. Whether this is just a repost of an old item I can't say (damn these news wires):

Quote:

Airbus' A350 XWB Plane May Face Delays

Monday, October 02, 2006 11:32:04 AM ET
Dow Jones Newswires

1413 GMT [Dow Jones] Airbus restructuring and problems on the A380 program could mean the A350 XWB airplanes are delayed beyond their 2012 expected entry into sevice, says Morgan Stanley. This would mean the plane is unable to capture sufficient market share relevant to the Boeing (BA) 787 and 777 offering, it adds. (RJS)
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Thorben
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Quoting Thorben (Reply 15):
I doubt Airbus will get the 3 billions it spent for development back.

Most of that was spent on the new wing.

Do you have figures, or is that just a guess?

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
If there was a chance of selling several thousand, it would make sense to spend the additional billions to have two different wings that were better optimized for different missions or fuselage lengths. However, if there is only the chance of selling several hundred, then it is clearly better to keep development costs down by having one compromise wing. Prospective A350 sales are somewhere in between where it's not obvious to me that two wings are justified.

My point is that sales will rise with the new wing.

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 27):
Its also quite a large range to cover with one engine - will be interesting to see how they do it.

There will be several engines, that should be the smallest problem.
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autothrust
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18)::

1) Airbus knows that the B787 is more advanced and has superior economics than equivalent sized smaller versions of the A350.

Oh please stop hyperboling, first we dont know the exact specs and 2nd the final freeze isnt even done. Only because the 787 has bleedless engines,etc.. doesnt mean its the ultimate technology of mankind. (sarcastic)

Maybe with the final freeze of the A350XBW, we will see some surprises.
Im sure Airbus sees the 787 as a impressive competitor, however that doesnt mean Airbus never will gone to leapfrog it.
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Johnny
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:13 am

"Airbus knows that the B787 is more advanced "

Oh really? Did we miss something here? Do you have the specs. from the A350XWB already?

 Smile
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 40):
Maybe with the final freeze of the A350XBW, we will see some surprises.

Such as what? Technology advances, but applications of new technology develop over time and are rarely a surprise.
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hb88
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
2) Airbus knows that they have a huge gap in their product line-up between the original, smaller A350 and the A380 (for any practical purpose the A340-600 is dead by now), so sizing the A350 up makes sense from their product line-up standpoint.

 checkmark  Correct. The widebody gap in the product line is an issue, particularly given the margins on WBs as opposed to SR products. If Airbus get this right (and I'm saying 'if'), they will be in a very strong long-term position as IMO the primary difference between Boeing and Airbus for quite a while has been that Airbus hasn't had enough heft at the larger end of the market. IMO, this is a very smart thing to be doing.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 18):
1) Airbus knows that the B787 is more advanced and has superior economics than equivalent sized smaller versions of the A350. Consequently, the smaller A350s will have hard time gaining market share against smaller B787 versions, so Airbus is sizing the A350 up to avoid a direct confrontation.

 thumbsdown  Huh? Exactly how do Airbus 'know' this? The XWB hasn't even been industrially launched.
 
express1
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:50 am

Here we go Airbus studies a larger A350X-1000,why dont they concentrate on the problems they have with the A380,and get back the confidence of their customers who have ordered it, and then move on.

dave
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Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:54 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 43):

thumbsdown Huh? Exactly how do Airbus 'know' this? The XWB hasn't even been industrially launched.

Firstly, not saying that one is any better the the other.... but..... you ask how Airbus might know....

One way they might know is how the A350 did in the market before they came out with the XWB. They have experienced it first hand, (therefore that is knowledge), and decided to attack one end of the 787 and mostly the 16 year old 777 (I think it launched in the 90ish time frame).

Cheers
 
hb88
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 45):
One way they might know is how the A350 did in the market before they came out with the XWB. They have experienced it first hand, (therefore that is knowledge), and decided to attack one end of the 787 and mostly the 16 year old 777 (I think it launched in the 90ish time frame).

The XWB bears very little resemblance to the 350 lite. In the context of the new 350, there isn't enough information to compare the two aircraft (787 and XWB). So saying that "Airbus knows that the B787 is more advanced and has superior economics than equivalent sized smaller versions of the A350." is incorrect unless you're comparing it with the 'old' 350 which I don't believe the poster was doing.
 
ksupilot
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:11 am

I assume this will deffinatly finalize Boeing's decision on the 787-10. And it has been talked on here more as a "What If" scenario, but maybe we will see a 787-11.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:17 am

I think this ads weight to my recent argument that LH is headed for an all Airbus fleet.

If the A350XWB 1000 becomes reality, the 777 and 787 for LH just went right out the window, and likely the 747-8I as well.
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Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus Studies Larger A350X-1000 Variant.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 46):

The XWB bears very little resemblance to the 350 lite. In the context of the new 350, there isn't enough information to compare the two aircraft (787 and XWB). So saying that "Airbus knows that the B787 is more advanced and has superior economics than equivalent sized smaller versions of the A350." is incorrect unless you're comparing it with the 'old' 350 which I don't believe the poster was doing.

Yes, I suppose a couple of years experience in dealing with what the customer wants or now expects, and what you can deliver, is completely irrelevant in placing the new XWB in its market segment. My bad... Maybe you can mark it down as a lost opportunity.


Cheers