VgnAtl747
Topic Author
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 3:59 am

Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:57 am

I did a search and didn't see this posted...

In a new memo to employees this morning, President Don Bornhorst said Comair's response to Delta's RFP for components of its Delta Connection flying will be based in part on pilot costs that have not been restructured and that reflect where we are in negotiations. Comair's bid is due to Delta today, Monday, October 2.

"Today marks the deadline for Comair's response to Delta's request for proposal for components of its Delta Connection flying, including flying on 70- and 50-seat jets currently in our fleet. In communications last week, I said it was "highly unlikely" that Comair would be in a position to submit a competitive bid because we have not completed our restructuring with our organized labor groups. We have made little progress on our pilot negotiations since that time, and we will be forced to reply with pilot costs that have not been restructured and that reflect where we are in negotiations. This certainly will not win new aircraft nor retain the existing fleet."

"Despite discussions held over the weekend with ALPA, we have made little progress toward achieving competitive pilot costs and, as a result, will be bidding with contract terms that actually increase our cost disadvantage and almost certainly prevent us from winning or retaining flying," according to the memo.

The memo goes on to thank those employees and pilots that have made sacrifices and stuck with Comair through this time. It also mentions that Comair will continue to look for growth in areas that we have a quality product and competitive costs, such as Maintenance and Airport Customer Service operations.

I guess I personally would say to those arrogant pilots and flight attendants that thought they didn't deserve a cut that I hope you find unemployment more conducive to your daily life, since we obviously won't be needing you all much past November.

[Edited 2006-10-02 18:00:13]
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
Zone1
Posts: 894
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:47 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:16 am

Does this mean that Comair will be liquidated?
/// U N I T E D
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:08 am

I have the same question as Zone 1 - this morning Cincinnati Enquirer tone was OH would lose flying. Obviously, this article was written prior to this mornings memo. Are those DL jets and can they be redeploy accordingly?
 
akjetBlue
Posts: 777
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:59 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:26 am

Well I ahve a little experience with OH and know a little...

Now OH stared as a commuter carrier and then decided to buy the CRJ - this was before Big D bought Comair outright. So some of the CRJs may belong to Comair Holdings - the 70 seaters however would prob have been purchased by Big D.

Big question is how many CRJs they do own - will they downsize? operate for another airline? take the indy air route?
Save a horse! Ride a Cowboy!
 
VgnAtl747
Topic Author
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 3:59 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:29 am

In answer to your question of liquidation, no. Of our fleet, the aircraft that will most likely be leaving include the 70- and 50-seat variants of the CRJ. We will most likely be retaining our 40-seat flying.

Management has made it quite clear that despite the reduction in the fleet, Comair will not cease operations, but rather grow in other sectors. As an example, we have a very well developed maintenance program with maintenance bases in several cities. In addition, our Airport Customer Service is very cost competitive and has a very good reputation. It is likely that the company will grow in those areas by performing maintanance work for other carriers and acting as a ground contractor in some areas.

There are quite a few stations right now that are Comair staffed but receive ASA flights, as has been the case since the last major schedule overhaul. I would expect to see a lot of the stations with Comair personnel remain Comair staffed even if the aircraft flying in are not Comair.

To clarify, the aircraft leaving the fleet are the aircraft owned directly by Delta. There is a portion of the fleet which is owned by Comair- these aircraft Delta has less control over. Looking at it from a business angle it makes perfect sense. Delta owns the aircraft in question, so it makes sense that they'd put the most economical airline in them. We won't be loosing the entire fleet, just those 70- and 50-seaters owned directly by DL. Although I would expect to see some serious job cuts in the areas of Flight Control and In-Flight, as you certainly wouldn't the volume of crews and such that we have now to operate a fleet of half the size.

Don't quote me but the last figures I remember was that we have somewhere in the area of 120 aircraft. Of that 120 I believe somewhere around 50 of them are owned by DL, but as I said don't quote me.

[Edited 2006-10-02 19:32:58]
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
phollingsworth
Posts: 635
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 6:05 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:35 am

Can Comair justify keeping the aircraft that are directly controlled by OH if they loose the DCI contract, i.e. are there any other contracts currently inplace that justify keeping those aircraft? I would think it will be almost impossible for OH to secure a contract with another airline given that it cannot put together a competetive DCI bid. It seams to me that the flight crews may have negotiated (or non-negotiated) themselves out of a job.
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 4):
We will most likely be retaining our 40-seat flying.

CMR 40 seat flying is doomed. CMR owns now 40 seat aircraft, simply 50 seaters outfitted with only 40 seats. Add to that, I suspect most 50 seat flying will disappear. The 50 seater is no longer cost efficient.
 
VgnAtl747
Topic Author
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 3:59 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 5):
Can Comair justify keeping the aircraft that are directly controlled by OH if they loose the DCI contract

Just to clarify once again, and maybe I should have worded the thread title differently, Comair is not loosing the DCI contract completely as my understanding is, but rather Delta is removing the aircraft they own from the Comair fleet and replacing the operator of those aircraft with a more competitive airline. The complete outcome of this won't be known until November when DL has reviewed the proposals from all of the carriers.

The memo's from management say nothing about us loosing the 40-seat flying, only the 70- and 50-seat flying (on those aircraft owned by Delta).
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
VgnAtl747
Topic Author
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 3:59 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 6):
CMR 40 seat flying is doomed. CMR owns now 40 seat aircraft, simply 50 seaters outfitted with only 40 seats. Add to that, I suspect most 50 seat flying will disappear. The 50 seater is no longer cost efficient.

The point of my previous post was to show that Delta isn't dumping Comair completely (not directly anyway). To be honest I always thought the 40 seaters, which are newer, were the ones owned by DL, but apparently not as management says we're only loosing the 70- and 50-seat flying.

[Edited 2006-10-02 19:45:31]
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
N766UA
Posts: 7843
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 6):
The 50 seater is no longer cost efficient.

Sure it is, in the right markets. That's why every major airline flies them. If you do it like DH did, then it's not cost efficient.
This Website Censors Me
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:52 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 9):
Sure it is, in the right markets.

the number of right markets for the 50 seater is shrinking. The 50 seat RJ will disappear very quickly.
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:54 am

I don't want to start another argument about unions. But this argument by Comair that the labor groups are at fault is bogus.

I work for a regional airline that also has an "expensive" labor group. The company wants concessions and makes no bones about it. I think the pilot group is willing to be flexible, but not until the company maximises its assets.

Labor is an asset, not a liability, even if it is just an expense on the balance sheet. I am not naive enough to think otherwise.

Why should the pilots give concessions when aspects of the contract which are completely in the control of the company are not optimised? Why do I have 3-hour sits at outstation airports? Why do we have 4-day trips constructed to 16 hours? Do we really need 20-hour layovers? There is no reason a standard 4-day trip cannot be constructed to 20-24 hours of block time and be legal at the end of the month. Doing this would reduce staffing and not require concessions.

When my schedules are built to maximise the contract and FARs and the company still needs help I am more than willing to talk. But until then, forget it.

There is lots of flexibility built into pilot contracts where the company can use us, but for whatever reason (incompetence in schedule planning?) chooses not to.

I feel bad for every company like Comair and Mesaba, where labor is being blamed for something which is not their fault.

I have said before and I will say it again, labor is sometimes their own worst enemy. But to blame them for the financial problems of poorly run companies is a weak argument.
smrtrthnu
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:55 am

Comair is owned by Delta. The main source of revenue is a fee per flight by Delta.
OH was unsuccessful in picking up NW flying due to cost issues.
I do not see sourcing DCI station ops and contract maintenance contributing significantly to Comair's revenue stream. Comairs maintenance cost are not competitve especially regarding heavy maintenance.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 9):
Sure it is, in the right markets. That's why every major airline flies them. If you do it like DH did, then it's not cost efficient.

Actually, when JET-A is above $2.00/gal the efficiency is lost. Some analyst show CASM above .19. The thing to remember, the CRJ-100/200 was the transition aircraft to move regionals to the jet age.

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 11):
I work for a regional airline that also has an "expensive" labor group.



Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 11):
Why do I have 3-hour sits at outstation airports? Why do we have 4-day trips constructed to 16 hours? Do we really need 20-hour layovers? There is no reason a standard 4-day trip cannot be constructed to 20-24 hours of block time and be legal at the end of the month. Doing this would reduce staffing and not require

I agree with you 100% on efficency. I think RP does this correctly with the EMB's. However, Regional's are not the primary carrier and utilized to meet market demands for there code sharing partners. We are experiencing a business evolution of the industry. Unions like companies must be flexible in these times. As we are experiencing, the major's have a lot of options in the area of partners and will probably have more in the next few years. What's going to get the industries attention is when a number of employees from regional carriers like Comair and Express Jet are forced to the street.

Personally, I think their is a conflict of interest in the same union representing major and regional carriers. Also, every legacy carrier has changed leadership since 9/11, but the unions have not. This is a completely different landscape since 9/11.
 
docchaos
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2004 2:35 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:35 am

And just to clarify, this is NOT for all the 50-seat CRJ flying (The 40 seat jets are bundled into the flying as well. Comair, with help from Bombardier, has been fitting them with the additional 10 seats).

Request for Proposal (RFP) components of DConx, including up to 50 new 76-seat aircraft, up to 43 70-seat aircraft, including the 27 70-seaters currently in Comair’s fleet, and up to 50 50-seat aircraft that are currently in operation by various DLConx including Comair. Delta sent this RFP to all existing DLConx
carriers, as well as some regional jet operators not currently flying for Delta Connection.

This is by far the end of Comair, just the shrinking of it's flying operation. Comair is a HUGE ground handler for Delta, DLConx, even other carriers in some stations. Comair operates these services at a very competitive cost. Heck, even in a station as big as MIA, Comair has the ground handling contract for Delta.

Just my $0.02.
DocChaos
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 4018
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:58 am

"I guess I personally would say to those arrogant pilots and flight attendants that thought they didn't deserve a cut that I hope you find unemployment more conducive to your daily life, since we obviously won't be needing you all much past November."

Don't post before counting to 10 please. This is an emotionally-charged statement that is rather immature.

As you are seeing with Mesaba, regional employees are not going to take concessions to make it work. This isn't 2001, and they're not UAL pilots making $250,000 a year.

Most of the flight attendants make a wage that is at the poverty level. Most of the pilots make far less than $100,000 a year. Most of the new pilots at regionals make less than $30,000 a year.

You won't get concessions from these people. It's ridiculous to ask.

PJ
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 15):
"I guess I personally would say to those arrogant pilots and flight attendants that thought they didn't deserve a cut that I hope you find unemployment more conducive to your daily life, since we obviously won't be needing you all much past November."

Don't post before counting to 10 please. This is an emotionally-charged statement that is rather immature.

As you are seeing with Mesaba, regional employees are not going to take concessions to make it work. This isn't 2001, and they're not UAL pilots making $250,000 a year.

Most of the flight attendants make a wage that is at the poverty level. Most of the pilots make far less than $100,000 a year. Most of the new pilots at regionals make less than $30,000 a year.

You won't get concessions from these people. It's ridiculous to ask.

PJ

BRAVO!!!!

When I tell people that I earn about $35K annually they are stunned. And I am close to upgrade in my third year at my current job.
smrtrthnu
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:15 am

As the Comair MEC pointed out, the cuts demanded by Comair management would have put some Comair FO's at such a low-pay, that they would qualify for food stamps!! Something is fundamentally wrong with your business model, when skilled labor (like pilots) have to be paid at those levels.
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
As the Comair MEC pointed out, the cuts demanded by Comair management would have put some Comair FO's at such a low-pay, that they would qualify for food stamps!! Something is fundamentally wrong with your business model, when skilled labor (like pilots) have to be paid at those levels.

And the flying public is largely unaware of this.
smrtrthnu
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18263
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:27 am

Well, now, look-ee here - Frontier is looking for someone to fly CR7's, to replace Horizon.

A place for Comair?

But if the costs are too high, they'd be out of the frying pan into the mud.

 Smile

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MarkATL
Posts: 486
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:07 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 11):
I feel bad for every company like Comair and Mesaba, where labor is being blamed for something which is not their fault.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
The only thing this workgroup can be blamed for is shooting tthemselves in the foot after the the Comair strike a few years ago. the majors have since learned to lower their vulnerability to any one feeder/conex/express carrier ever being able to damage a hub again (CVG). The majors ever since then have been "diversifiing" their conex flying. Even Skywest with it's inhouse bitch ASA is doing this for DL. This also creats logistical scheduling issues for the schedules and crews.

God know in todays environment I'd never want to work fo an airline especially a regional.
"...left my home in Georgia, 'n headed for the "Frisco" Bay...
 
higherflyer
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:14 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Thread starter):
I guess I personally would say to those arrogant pilots and flight attendants that thought they didn't deserve a cut that I hope you find unemployment more conducive to your daily life, since we obviously won't be needing you all much past November.

Don't you think that is a little harsh!?

The pilots agreed to cuts earlier but they weren't implemented due to the stalemate with the flight attendants. Now, it appears there may be movement with the flight attendants and the pilots are saying that they aren't going to lay down and take whatever cuts that management wants them to take. The whole process is a negotiation... among all the work groups.

In 2000, the pilots stood firm and made major contract gains. Now, they have been asked to give a large part of the gains back. There will be some agreement and Comair will survive.

Any dealings I have ever had with the ground ops, flight crews and gate staff have been professional. I think that all of us wish them well.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Reply 7):
Just to clarify once again, and maybe I should have worded the thread title differently, Comair is not loosing the DCI contract completely as my understanding is, but rather Delta is removing the aircraft they own from the Comair fleet and replacing the operator of those aircraft with a more competitive airline. The complete outcome of this won't be known until November when DL has reviewed the proposals from all of the carriers.

The memo's from management say nothing about us loosing the 40-seat flying, only the 70- and 50-seat flying (on those aircraft owned by Delta).

This is largely true but remember Comair is a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta. while there are no indications DL intends to do so, they could easily dissolve Comair and distribute the assets as DL sees fit. Wholly owned subsidiaries exist solely at the pleasure (in a purely business sense of the word) of their parent.

It is very likely that leases or the 50 seaters which are removed from OH will be rejected by Delta and returned.

Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 11):
I have said before and I will say it again, labor is sometimes their own worst enemy. But to blame them for the financial problems of poorly run companies is a weak argument.

There are very few places where regional airlines can differentiate themselves. Comair runs a good operation but so does Republic which operates for much lower costs.

Regional airlines that sell their capacity to major airlines make few strategic decisions. Again, they exist for the "pleasure" of the major carrier they serve. Cost is often the biggest deciding factor between carriers.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Something is fundamentally wrong with your business model, when skilled labor (like pilots) have to be paid at those levels.

It"s called competition> I don't like it that some airlines pay their employees such low wages but they do and they are Comair's competitors. Comair is fortunate that CVG is a pretty low cost place to live.... the salaries at Comair go alot farther in CVG than they would if those same jobs were based elsewhere.
 
saab2000
Posts: 1216
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 6:19 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
It"s called competition> I don't like it that some airlines pay their employees such low wages but they do and they are Comair's competitors. Comair is fortunate that CVG is a pretty low cost place to live.... the salaries at Comair go alot farther in CVG than they would if those same jobs were based elsewhere.

I understand that argument. And it is valid. Competition requires more efficient operation. All I am trying to say is that there is a lot a company can do improve efficiency before cutting salaries. I have worked in both ground operations and as a pilot now for nearly 6 years and I see a lot of places where there are terribly wasteful things going on.

I would just like to see management take some responsibility to improve efficiency rather than just blaming already underpaid workers for financial problems that the underpaid workers did not cause. Trust me, efficient operations can and do exist. Look no further than Southwest.
smrtrthnu
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:01 am




Quoting Saab2000 (Reply 23):
Look no further than Southwest.

In addition to running an efficient operation, Southwest management leads by example, and treats coworkers as equals.

I remember once, during my flight ops internship at Southwest, I was sitting with a few very senior management folks, having an informal chat. At one point, I was asked for my opinion on a matter (impressive in it's own right), and started to preface my reply with "Well, I'm just an intern, but..."

Upon hearing that, one of them interrupted me, and sternly reminded me that my opinion...as an intern...was just as important as that of a member of management.

After I went on to answer, he again reassured me that I should never, not even for a second, think of myself as in any way inferior to or less important than any other employee, including management.

That particular gentleman was also known for refusing to park in his convenient reserved parking place up by the building entrance. Instead, he made a statement by parking in the very back of the lot.

It's amazing to me how so many major airlines fail to realize (or accept) what can be gained from simply treating employees with respect and dignity.



2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 22):
It"s called competition> I don't like it that some airlines pay their employees such low wages but they do and they are Comair's competitors.

Easy excuse, but it just doesn't hold water. If competition alone was the reason, then everybody in every industry would see their pay spiral down toward the cheapest employee. Yet, this doesn't happen.

Companies find ways to innovate and differentiate themselves. They find ways to be more efficient and deliver a better product. Unfortunately, Comair/DL's management team hasn't been willing to do this with Comair (or ASA when it was wholly-owned). Comair has suffered the price and DL will suffer too.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:05 am

Let me ask, what's to say Daddy Delta won't be simply transferring all of Comair's jets to their ownership and leaving Comair over the runway without a plane?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
Easy excuse, but it just doesn't hold water. If competition alone was the reason, then everybody in every industry would see their pay spiral down toward the cheapest employee. Yet, this doesn't happen.

OH has the oldest RJ fleet in the industry and employees who are long term employees similar to Mesaba. These two carriers are in the worse shape. OH salaried emlpoyees have had 2 pay cuts they were not allowed to vote on. OH has cut their HQ staff tremendously. I do not know the numbers, but do know they're looking to lease a floor and a half of their corporate office.

It is competition b/c newer companies are better able to meet market demands by learning from older/established carriers mistakes inorder to compete against them. Thus the more established carriers with higher labor cost are more suceptiable to the more flexible competition.

Do not forget this industry is cyclical. Same day different paint scheme.
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:01 pm

I hope Comair doesn't take the tumble that Mesaba appears to be taking. Some of the folks at my dispatch school, you could say, have ties w/Comair. I hope they're going to be alright.

But, it stinks, though, having to deal with labor issues. From the majors to the regionals (and I'm sure elsewhere), the different labor groups often do sacrifice in order to help cut costs. Fortunately, up 'til now, I've not really had to deal with that. Maybe Comair will be able to compete competitively with other regionals down the road soon. I don't like that DL owns them, though. IMO, DL could (over a bit of time) just cause Comair to evaporate, like (I've been reading here http://www.airliners.net/discussions...ion/read.main/3015703/6/#ID3015703 ) how NW is doing to Mesaba. I wouldn't put it past them, and then they farm out flying at rock-bottom prices. It'd be a shame.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
727forever
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 12:50 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Thread starter):
I guess I personally would say to those arrogant pilots and flight attendants that thought they didn't deserve a cut that I hope you find unemployment more conducive to your daily life, since we obviously won't be needing you all much past November.

Oh, piss off. I say to those crews, "Way to go. Stand up for what you bring to the table." You tell a guy who just spent $120,000 on his education and training who makes $38,000, for the fourth going on fifth year in a row, to take a 22% paycut and see what he says. Would you ask your doctor or your attorney or your stock broker to do this? This is all baloney negotiating tactics to improve profit margins, not save a company. If it were legit why are they still negotiating past the deadline and why did they have these negotiations planned well before the deadline. Arrogant, no. Courageous, yes. Deserving of a paycut, absolutely absurd.

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 10):
The 50 seat RJ will disappear very quickly.

I agree that the 50 seat RJ is no longer a viable option. Question, where are they going to go? They have leases on most, others are owned. Who is going to buy the owned airplanes? Who is going to take the leases on CRJ-100s? There is still half of the DH fleet of CRJ-200s sitting in Rockford, Zephryhills, and Tuscon that nobody wants. Do you think the leasers are just going to let OH out of their leases. They've already been burned on the default trick by other carriers. This won't be easy for OH management to just "make them disappear very quickly."

727forever
727forever
 
milesrich
Posts: 1508
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2003 2:46 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Thread starter):
I did a search and didn't see this posted...

In a new memo to employees this morning, President Don Bornhorst said Comair's response to Delta's RFP for components of its Delta Connection flying will be based in part on pilot costs that have not been restructured and that reflect where we are in negotiations. Comair's bid is due to Delta today, Monday, October 2.

"Today marks the deadline for Comair's response to Delta's request for proposal for components of its Delta Connection flying, including flying on 70- and 50-seat jets currently in our fleet. In communications last week, I said it was "highly unlikely" that Comair would be in a position to submit a competitive bid because we have not completed our restructuring with our organized labor groups. We have made little progress on our pilot negotiations since that time, and we will be forced to reply with pilot costs that have not been restructured and that reflect where we are in negotiations. This certainly will not win new aircraft nor retain the existing fleet."

"Despite discussions held over the weekend with ALPA, we have made little progress toward achieving competitive pilot costs and, as a result, will be bidding with contract terms that actually increase our cost disadvantage and almost certainly prevent us from winning or retaining flying," according to the memo.

The memo goes on to thank those employees and pilots that have made sacrifices and stuck with Comair through this time. It also mentions that Comair will continue to look for growth in areas that we have a quality product and competitive costs, such as Maintenance and Airport Customer Service operations.

I guess I personally would say to those arrogant pilots and flight attendants that thought they didn't deserve a cut that I hope you find unemployment more conducive to your daily life, since we obviously won't be needing you all much past November.

I don't want to get banned, but the guy who wrote the above lists his age at 16-20 years old and claims he is a part time CSA for Comair.

To call skilled pilots and flight attendants "arrogant" because they won't work for poverty level, or near poverty level wages is, IMHO, arrogant, especially when it comes from someone that is just a kid. This race to the bottom, where the airlines demand more and more cuts from their employees is disgusting, and anti family. Before you call someone arrogant because they don't want to take a huge cut in pay, walk in their shoes. If Comair's pilots and flight attendants take these big cuts, in a few years or less, there will be yet another new carrier offering to fly these routes for even less. Maybe some carrier can recruit pilots and flight attendants from India or China and really outsource the flying. They can cut down on crew expenses by building dormitories to house the crews at CVG, and make them share one big room on layovers. Why offer any benefits if you can get people to work without them? Like someone else posted, Comair's problem is their workforce is too experienced, so they make too much. Walmart just announced that they are increasing their part time work force from a current 28% to 40% in order to be more competitive. If that is what competition is all about, then eventually the government will have to step in. The GOP will be removed from power in about four weeks, and while the Democrats agenda won't be interference in labor negotiations, the pendulum has swung too far to the right, and it will have to be corrected. Treating employees in this manner is unAmerican, it truly is.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:14 pm

What can the pilots expect? They have priced their services at a non-competitive rate in an e-x-c-e-e-d-i-n-g-l-y competetive business.

There are thousands of men and women out there willing to do RJ flying for $20,000 a year. They just want to fly. The existing pilots can very easily be replaced...albeit not instantaneously, but in very short order.

It happened with the mechanics at NWA. It happened with ramp services as AS. American Eagle contracted out Catering Services. All of these because the employees did not have the vision to realize that they had to work at a competitive rate...either through wage or productivity.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ca2ohHP
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:14 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:43 pm

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 30):
The GOP will be removed from power in about four weeks, and while the Democrats agenda won't be interference in labor negotiations, the pendulum has swung too far to the right, and it will have to be corrected.

I knew it was only a matter of time until politics got thrown in. Democrat or Republican, there is no excuse for the mis-management at Comair. Overall they have a great team of employees, but in my humble opinion, before you go asking your front line employees for huge cuts...senior management needs to step up and lead by example.

As far as the pilot pay goes...ALPA won't do jack for these folks...unfortunately ALPA just sucks up their union dues and when it comes down to it...leaves them high and dry.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:58 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 13):
I think RP does this correctly with the EMB's.

FutureFO can verify this. He works for CHQ.

Frontier has established Lynx Air as their wholly own subsidiary for regional flying. I think this replaces Horizon CR7 service.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
RandyWaldron
Posts: 215
Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2006 9:40 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting VgnAtl747 (Thread starter):
I guess I personally would say to those arrogant pilots and flight attendants that thought they didn't deserve a cut that I hope you find unemployment more conducive to your daily life, since we obviously won't be needing you all much past November.

What an absolutely ridiculous statement to make. Considering what you've said, I would like to see you try and rub two nickels together after paying through the nose for student loans to finance your Professional Pilot Flight Training, or, for that matter, live on a Flight Attendant's salary; then be asked to take a paycut to finance management's golden parachute. You seem uneducated and ignorant - you'll definitely make a great CEO at Northwest, Delta, United, et al one day!
"Flaps 20, gear down, landing checklist please..."
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 30):
The GOP will be removed from power in about four weeks, and while the Democrats agenda won't be interference in labor negotiations, the pendulum has swung too far to the right, and it will have to be corrected. Treating employees in this manner is unAmerican, it truly is

There is nothing political about competition. If you think that Democrats are going to save the airline industry from bruising competition, you are sorely mistaken.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
Easy excuse, but it just doesn't hold water. If competition alone was the reason, then everybody in every industry would see their pay spiral down toward the cheapest employee. Yet, this doesn't happen.

Every industry doesn’t act like airlines. Airlines have some of the lowest long-term financial indicators of any industry. Why? Airlines are labor and capital intensive. Competition is intense and pricing is more transparent than any other industry. Highly taxed and regulated. Need I go on? Airlines are far from just like every other industry.

Also, airlines are seniority based which makes shrinking to profitability impossible (and the reason this imminent shrinkage of Comair is only the first step in its ultimate failure. You can’t lay off the bottom third of the workforce and keep unit costs constant… which Comair has to do to retain even the flying it does have.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 25):
Unfortunately, Comair/DL's management team hasn't been willing to do this with Comair

Tell me what Comair has done or should have done? Comair has been a quality, well-run company. What it has not done to keep costs down is grow. And its high wages even for the oldest employees are not competitive with airlines that start up flying the same planes and bid for the same flying from major carriers.

There will never be mature regional airlines as long as they bid for flying with younger carriers. Unlike network carriers, regional airlines cannot change their revenue profile enough to compensate for the older, more expensive workforce at mature carriers.

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 27):
Do not forget this industry is cyclical. Same day different paint scheme.

Yes, it is. Remember also that Delta bought Comair because there were rumblings in the 90s that Comair would buy jets bigger than CRJs and become a competitor to DL. DL had the cash, bought Comair, and kept them where DL needed them to protect its hub.

When Comair’s pilots struck demanding mainline pilot rates, DL let them strike and then has allowed Comair labor to hang themselves.

It’s a sad story but I will repeat once again…. Regional carriers exist solely for the pleasure of the major carriers they serve. Any regional airline that doesn’t understand that fundamental concept will fail.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
Tell me what Comair has done or should have done?

Diversify it's business away from being reliant on one carrier. Look at the regionals that are doing the best right now....its the likes of Republic and SkyWest who do business for multiple majors. Then, look at Comair or Mesaba who are strapped to one carrier. Unfortunately, DL would not allow Comair to diversify itself until recently....and by then it was too late.

Or how about invest in technology to make the company more efficient? The meltdown of December 2004 was a prime illustration of how little investment has been made into making Comair run efficiently.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
What it has not done to keep costs down is grow.

Until 2005, Comair experienced a lot of growth. Comair picked up a huge number of RJ's from 2002 to 2005. Unfortunately, the growth came to a screeching halt when DL took Comair into bankruptcy with it.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 35):
There will never be mature regional airlines as long as they bid for flying with younger carriers.

Then how is SkyWest competing? They are an even older carrier than Comair. They have lots of senior employees and while they're pay is not as high as Comair, it is far higher than the bottom feeders at Mesa.

The bottomline is that Comair isn't dying because of high labor costs. It's dying because the business model of using regional jets on low-yield routes doesn't work. Had the regional affiliates stuck to the higher-yield smaller markets where they belong....they'd be doing fine. Unfortunately, the majors have decided to use RJ's on low-yield routes (often against LCC's) to the detriment of the regional employees.
 
VgnAtl747
Topic Author
Posts: 1333
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2001 3:59 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Milesrich (Reply 30):
I don't want to get banned, but the guy who wrote the above lists his age at 16-20 years old and claims he is a part time CSA for Comair.

To call skilled pilots and flight attendants "arrogant" because they won't work for poverty level, or near poverty level wages is, IMHO, arrogant, especially when it comes from someone that is just a kid. This race to the bottom, where the airlines demand more and more cuts from their employees is disgusting, and anti family. Before you call someone arrogant because they don't want to take a huge cut in pay, walk in their shoes. If Comair's pilots and flight attendants take these big cuts, in a few years or less, there will be yet another new carrier offering to fly these routes for even less. Maybe some carrier can recruit pilots and flight attendants from India or China and really outsource the flying. They can cut down on crew expenses by building dormitories to house the crews at CVG, and make them share one big room on layovers. Why offer any benefits if you can get people to work without them? Like someone else posted, Comair's problem is their workforce is too experienced, so they make too much. Walmart just announced that they are increasing their part time work force from a current 28% to 40% in order to be more competitive. If that is what competition is all about, then eventually the government will have to step in. The GOP will be removed from power in about four weeks, and while the Democrats agenda won't be interference in labor negotiations, the pendulum has swung too far to the right, and it will have to be corrected. Treating employees in this manner is unAmerican, it truly is.

At least the pilots have a union. We were just handed a note that basically said here's your new pay scale, enjoy your pay and benefits cuts. I was cut from full time to part time via memo. They didn't even have a meeting, they just handed us a memo that said due to cuts we were now part time with no insurance, and at a lower pay scale. Not as bad of a cut as the flight crews were asked for I know, but you don't think some of us Customer Service Agents live at below poverty levels. My point is that the unionized labor groups cannot continue to argue against taking a pay cut. Everyone else in the company has, and it's their turn. I'm sorry, it is. Noboy likes cuts, but they happen.

I'm not saying that they should accept the cut they were told to take. But I've had many crews tell me they didn't think they deserved a cut, and that is wrong. If management announces a company wide cut from the top down, then guess what, that includes you.

Don't give me this garbage about education costs. We all have student loans, and we all make less than we want to. I'm not saying and haven't said that the cuts are good... none of us want them. What pisses off all of the other employee groups is when IBT or ALPA says they don't think they should take a cut. I've heard flight attendants winging about it, I've heard pilots winging about it. 28% is excessive, I don't deny that, however I don't think you can justify saying they should be immune to cuts.

Next time you fly, try complaining to the check-in agent that pilots make below poverty... see what nice seat on the airplane you get... right next to the lav, 2 UM's and 2 familys with kids.

Oh and FYI, I'm 22... apparently this doesn't update itself. And if you have a problem with that then tough.

[Edited 2006-10-03 19:06:52]
Work Hard. Fly Right. Continental Airlines
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:30 am

The fundamental problem with Comair is that Delta Airlines has mismanaged its relationship with Comair. This started back in 1999 when Delta and Comair were renegotiating their contract with one another.

The problem that stemmed from that negotiation was pure and simple: greed. Comair was a very profitable airline, in fact, they were one of the most profitable airlines in the world based on profit margin (around 22%). Delta wanted a piece of that profit and Comair didn't want to give it up. Thus, a battle ensued with the ultimate outcome of Delta buying Comair outright. Comair was never serious about going out on their own. They did the market research and came to the conclusion that they would last a few years and die. They knew they couldn't do what Independence tried years latter.

It was at this point in time that Delta started Comair's downward spiral. Lets look at what Delta did to ruin Comair:

First, Delta took away one of Comair's biggest assets. It's marketing department. Before Delta bought Comair, the capacity purchase agreement allowed Comair to take risks if it wanted to start a new market that Delta thought otherwise. Comair was very good in finding the right markets to fly its product. It made Comair lots of money and Delta didn't have to share the risk. A win-win situation. Did you know that (recalling this out of my old gray matter) over 40% of Comair passengers back then connected to another Comair flight. They never touched a Delta airplane. But when Delta bought Comair, all of this went out the window. Comair started flying to markets that were not fit for its product because Delta misused the RJ. They ran Comair like an airline instead of a business. They used the RJ's for filler in their schedules to increase market share. Remember when the call of the day was that frequency was king! Thank Fred Reid and Leo Mullin.

Second, they lost upwards of $700 million dollars on a needless strike. Why? Ego. Comair management wasn't going to let a bunch of pilots dictate to them what their pay and benefit package should be. This animosity was prevalent at Comair long before the buyout by Delta. The CRJ and ERJ took the airlines that owned them and put them on a new playing field. These airlines weren't puddle jumpers any longer and the pilots that flew these planes realized this and wanted to be compensated accordingly. Comair pilots never tried to get mainline rates. They always believed that their pay should be in line with the revenue that the airplane generated. Remember that in those days the RJ's were called flying ATM's. Thus the struggle for what the regional industry landscape should look like. Management on one hand wanted to keep the mom and pop wages and benefits, and the pilots wanted a piece of the action that they saw being generated by this new phenomenon: the RJ. I guess management was willing to bet $700 million for their cause, because Comair's total contractual package was only worth about $110 million. Makes you wonder why David Seibenbergen got put out to pasture. Even ol' Leo said it was a mistake.

Third, the whipsaw effect. Brought to you by: Fred Burtrell. This further put pressure on Comair by introducing competition. But wait, competition is good right? Well, not if it is at the expense of your own product taking a dive. Comair had one of the lowest CASM in the industry when they were in growth mode between 2001 and 2004. Ask any business professional and they will tell you that a business that is not growing is one that is dying. The competition that was brought into the portfolio did just that. It awarded planes to other Connection carriers at the expense of the wholly owned. Therefore, in a short period of time, the wholly owned carriers started to reverse course and got more expensive to operate. Why anyone would shoot itself in the foot like that is beyond me. But Delta Airlines did it. Funny how American and Continental never got into this silly game. And they were rewarded with profitable wholly owned Regional's.

Forth, Innovation. Comair was always a step ahead of the competition throughout its history. They were the launch customer of the Saab 340 and the CRJ. Two airplanes that had profound effects on shaping the Regional industry. This put Comair ahead of it's competition and gave them a competitive edge. All of this was lost with Delta running the show. I am sure that Comair would have been one of the first airlines to operate the new Embraer's 170-190's. This would have put them ahead of the curve that they were always so good at doing. But, without their own cash flow, this was not to be the case. Instead, Delta let an outside source reap the benefits of this new generation of jet. Notch another one up for Delta.


Therefore, to put this on the backs of Labor is dishonest at best. This is what gets media play. Comair has dropped their lease rates per plane from $110k a month down to $50k a month. They also have been able to rework all of their vendor contracts for considerable savings. Yet, they still can't compete because their pilots and flight attendants are paid a few dollars an hour more than the competition? This is an opportunity for management to take advantage of being in bankruptcy. Do you honestly think that the few million dollars that Labor and management are apart is enough to close the doors at Comair?

P.S. The idea that Comair has a mature workforce is laughable. 75% of their pilots have been there less than 8 years. Flight Attendants even less. Compare that to any industry and call that a senior workforce and they would laugh you out of the building.
 
RJNUT
Posts: 1182
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 1999 1:58 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:51 am

RJ
You are now on my most respected list...
That was an honest and correct assement of Regional flying today..
I am surprised how man on this board take management poistions ,

I remeber we ground handled COmair at MDW in 1993 and we thought they were pretty cool...Their CRJ's were impressive and the were very profeesional...9/11 is when the Majors started to mis-use the regional by back filling...now they have created a big mess with musical spoons with the regionals..as some on here say,,race to the bottom!!!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Then how is SkyWest competing?



Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Unfortunately, the majors have decided to use RJ's on low-yield routes (often against LCC's) to the detriment of the regional employees

So Delta gives Skywest advantageous pricing since they don't have to fly LCC routes but Comair has to so they get dinged? Sorry, but the logic is just plain (and plane) flawed.

RJ,
it's a nice defense but it simply escapes alot of reality and denies alot more. No one told Comair's pilots to strike except themselves. Removing the marketing dept. is exactly what happened at every other regional airline (if they ever had one).

My point remains the same. Those regional airlines that have succeeded have done so - including Skywest - because they realize that they exist to serve their major airline partners. They don't have visions of deciding their own strategy or allow their employees to think they can make market-leading or mainline competitive payrates. It's a mighty hard concept for egotistical people to accept but it's reality.

Comair thought too highly of itself for its own good...and it will be dismantled because it can no longer deliver the service its owner expects of them. And there is no other alternative either.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:06 am

I concur RJ, and RJNUT. Question: would Comair even be in BK themselves, had DL not bought them, all other things being equal?
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ca2ohHP
Posts: 657
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:14 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Then how is SkyWest competing? They are an even older carrier than Comair. They have lots of senior employees and while they're pay is not as high as Comair, it is far higher than the bottom feeders at Mesa.

Most of the people I talk to at Skywest don't like their pay, but stick it out. Skywest is also really big on internal programs to prevent unions from gaining a foothold inside their company. Mesa does not have senior employees like Comair...in my opinion, comparing Mesa to Comair is like comparing a lemon to a banana. Skywest also utilizes a much more efficient station and staffing model than Comair typically had.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
The bottomline is that Comair isn't dying because of high labor costs. It's dying because the business model of using regional jets on low-yield routes doesn't work. Had the regional affiliates stuck to the higher-yield smaller markets where they belong....they'd be doing fine.

So, how does United, US Airways, Continental and American view your theory on regional jets in relation to low-yield routes?
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 41):
would Comair even be in BK themselves, had DL not bought them, all other things being equal?

You don't get it! Comair is not cost competitive. Who owns them is immaterial. Airlines that aren't cost competitive eventually fail. ALWAYS.
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 43):
You don't get it!

I think he does. What he wants to know is if the changes Delta made at Comair helped make them uncompetative. I think it is an unanswerable question because there are too many variables involved.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 43):
Who owns them is immaterial

Perhaps, but once, Comair was self governing, and was pretty successful. Those numbers speak for themselves. There are many at Comair that think the Delta purchase was the worst thing that ever happened there. Those being led can generally tell if leadership is doing a poor job. And they will resent it.
Proud OOTSK member
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 44):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 43):
You don't get it!

I think he does. What he wants to know is if the changes Delta made at Comair helped make them uncompetative. I think it is an unanswerable question because there are too many variables involved.

Thank you, world traveler. It's a pretty simple question. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Comair in 'de-facto' BK because it's parent company is? ASA was sold before the BK filing IIRC (again correct me if Im wrong) so they avoided being where Comair is now. A line has to be drawn somewhere. And when pilots and flight attendants stand up for their profession which means safely transporting millions of human lives everyday safely in a tube that goes 500mph, 5 miles up in the sky and ask for compensation that doesn't allow them to qualify for foodstamps, that is not greed or unreasonable.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18263
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 33):
Frontier has established Lynx Air as their wholly own subsidiary for regional flying. I think this replaces Horizon CR7 service.

Sorry, no. Lynx (dba Frontier Express) is a separate issue. They will use Q400's to fly regional routes (up to 650 miles from DEN - but not necessarily just from DEN).

http://www.frontierairlines.com:80/f...e-are/news-media/press-releases.do

Separately, Frontier has an RFP out for 20 x CR&'s (or similar 70 seater) to fly as Jet Express, and to replace the 9 x CR7's that Horizon was using for this.

For various reasons, Horizon declined to tender for the new flying:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/business/story/6114810p-5357058c.html

It is tough to think of anyone who has 9 x CR7's (or E170's) sitting around doing nothing, so those of us who follow Frontier are not sure how this will resolve.

CEO Pinneo (of Horizon) has said that the changeover (from Frontier) could take up to a year, but that the first CR7 would return to pure Horizon service in the first quarter of 2007.

Mr. Pinneo has also told his staff that Horizon's costs are higher than most regional providers.

I have no idea if those costs are higher than Comair's, but the Frontier CFO has said that Jet Express has been stand alone profitable in the heavy traffic months. With lower costs (than Horizon) it could be more proftable for a longer period.

mariner

[Edited 2006-10-04 02:37:26]
aeternum nauta
 
DashTrash
Posts: 1266
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:44 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 40):
No one told Comair's pilots to strike except themselves.

WRONG!!!!! By refusing to agree to the need for retirement plans, duty / trip rigs, and various other things that are needed to make this job worth doing, Comair management forced the strike. The Comair pilots recognized that they were doing the same type of work for substantially less money than their mainline counterparts, and rightfully demanded equal compensation.

The Comair strike and subsequent contract should have been a starting point for every other regional during their negotiations. Instead, regional pilots at most airlines traded off better workrules and pay rates for growth with the idea it would ensure a faster upgrade, thus getting them to the majors quicker.

The end result is the downward spiral of this career since those jobs at the majors have been replaced with RJs. With the current working conditions at most regionals, I'm continuously surprised that anyone wants the job anymore.

Sure, there are many people who would do this job cheaper. When that happens, you can look for the overall experience level in the cockpit to drop significantly, as the senior pilots move out of the industry and let high performance aircraft be flown by inexperienced kids. Rather than watching airplanes take off and land, you airline nuts can watch the aluminum showers that will result from lack of experience in the cockpit. It's already happened once, and if we don't approach flying an airliner as a profession, it will happen again.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:59 am

Comair, like any other airline, cannot shrink its way to profitability. The lowest paid employees are the ones that will be laid off, thanks to seniority. Unit costs will go up while DL will still hold Comair to its cost targets.

DL simply doesn't want to be the bully that shuts Comair down in one fell swoop. Instead Comair will do it to itself but it is a certainty that unless a highly disproportionate number of higher paid Comair employees leave, the company will end up completely shutting down.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 45):
Thank you, world traveler. It's a pretty simple question. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Comair in 'de-facto' BK because it's parent company is? ASA was sold before the BK filing IIRC (again correct me if Im wrong) so they avoided being where Comair is now. A line has to be drawn somewhere. And when pilots and flight attendants stand up for their profession which means safely transporting millions of human lives everyday safely in a tube that goes 500mph, 5 miles up in the sky and ask for compensation that doesn't allow them to qualify for foodstamps, that is not greed or unreasonable.

ASA was sold to provide some of the liquidity DL needed.

Comair isn't defacto in BK. It's a reality. And it was as of Sept 14, 2005 or whatever the date of the combined BK filing was.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 47):
Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 40):
No one told Comair's pilots to strike except themselves.

WRONG!!!!! By refusing to agree to the need for retirement plans, duty / trip rigs, and various other things that are needed to make this job worth doing, Comair management forced the strike. The Comair pilots recognized that they were doing the same type of work for substantially less money than their mainline counterparts, and rightfully demanded equal compensation.

No. I'm exactly right. You and Tin Pusher right above both validate my point that OH's labor decided to put a line in the sand which meant refusing to help the company and instead walked off the job. What the company asked is not the issue when it comes to who brought the company down. The issue is who did the economic harm - and that award goes to Comair's labor.

the "fun" of these forums is that they are supported by airline employees whose personal interests transcend their ability to understand the economics of the industry or their company. Every post after mine validates what I am saying although everyone is attempting to defend labor.

The reality is that Comair's employees have brought the company down because they refuse to work for the wages the company is willing to pay. In the American free enterprise system, management controls the resources of production. That means they have the right to pay labor what they believe is appropriate. If labor won't work for what is offered, the firm shuts down and the resources are reallocated to other companies. That is management's prerogative and the sooner Comair's labor understands it, the faster Comair's slide can be reversed. There will be a point of no return that will be reached and it is approaching very quickly.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Comair Unlikely To Retain DCI Flying.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:18 am




Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 48):
The reality is that Comair's employees have brought the company down because they refuse to work for the wages the company is willing to pay.

As I see it, management brought the company down because they refuse to pay the wages pilots are willing to work for...



2H4


Intentionally Left Blank