gf-a330
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Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:54 am

The quick thinking and skill of a Gulf Air captain avoided a mid-air collision with a military aircraft over Iraq.

The drama unfolded early on Saturday morning as Gulf Air's flight to London with 156 passengers on board was crossing Iraqi airspace, said an airline spokesman.Radar and the plane's hi-tech sensors revealed that an object was hurtling towards it. The captain was forced to change both route and altitude suddenly to avoid a collision, said the spokesman. He had only 10 seconds to manoeuvre.

"As the airspace over Iraq is controlled by allied forces, this had to be a military aircraft which should not have been flying at that altitude," said the spokesman.

The flight continued to London without any problem.
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting Spokesman:
"As the airspace over Iraq is controlled by allied forces, this had to be a military aircraft which should not have been flying at that altitude,"

I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way. Also who right now are the controllers in Iraq?
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
ordflier
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:26 am

Right of Way? Maybe as far as priority with ATC Controllers, but when aircraft are hurtling thru the
skies issues such as this should already be figured out.

Either the Gulf Air flight or the other aircraft were at the wrong altitude or wrong track or the ATC responsible for the
sector screwed up.
ORDflier
 
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STT757
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:46 am

Im wondering if it was an unmanned drone or perhaps a surveilance platform of some sort.
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LTU932
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 8:54 am

Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace? I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.
 
Qantas767
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
Also who right now are the controllers in Iraq?

The RAAF controlled Baghdad International for a while, Im not sure if that coverage extended to the whole country, or if they are still in country
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bond007
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way.



Quoting ORDflier (Reply 2):
Right of Way? Maybe as far as priority with ATC Controllers,

I don't think you'll find transient military aircraft have any more 'right of way' than any other aircraft, except when using certain callsigns.

Now, it may well be that in Iraq airspace all military traffic have priority (would make sense), but this not US standard practice.

Not really relevant to the discussion anyway.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
jben
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:26 am

I too thought civilian aircraft were flying around Iraqi airspace... I recall some trip reports showing skymaps with a dog leg to avoid entering Iraqi airspace.
 
Qantas767
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:45 am

Remember the DHL A300 which was nearly shot down a couple of years ago. They were contracted by the military so Im not sure whether they fall into civil or military? I would say civil.
IF IT DON'T HOVER - DON'T BOTHER
 
trvyyz
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over I

Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace? I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

I thought the same but not exactly what I saw in my last trip to India by KU (LHR-KWI leg).

 
N754PR
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:53 am

Military have the right of way.. well I'm sure the US Military does, I mean the US has the right of way in everything!!

I remember many years ago at Kai Tak, there was a greyhound getting ready to depart back to a carrier in the SCS when on radar a pilot started telling the controller there was a UFO on his radar, later he comes back saying its a military plane (he can see it) flying from anything from 5000 to 35000 feet. Turned out it was US Navy jets from the carrier.

The tower controller informed the greyhound to get back to his carrier ASAP and tell his people to get their aircraft out of commercial air corridors and in future to tell them when they are playing about.
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3MilesToWRO
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way. Also who right now are the controllers in Iraq?

I think the most important thing to remember is that, despite efforts, Iraq is not in US :->
 
BAtriple7
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way

1. Iraq is not in the US

2. Even if they have right of way, risking flying into a civilian airliner (if that was indeed the case) is no way to prove it.
 
JJJ
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting Jben (Reply 7):
too thought civilian aircraft were flying around Iraqi airspace... I recall some trip reports showing skymaps with a dog leg to avoid entering Iraqi airspace.

Two years ago I took a KL flight AMS-BAH, then returning Kuwait - AMS and both overflew Iraq.

I'm pretty sure my MEA flight Kuwait - Beirut this January did, too.

Airliners at cruising altitude don't have much to fear from manpads (the DHL A300 was either landing or taking off, IIRC).

J.
 
bond007
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting N754PR (Reply 10):
Military have the right of way.. well I'm sure the US Military does,

Not in the USA...except for certain special callsigns or circumstances.

Quoting N754PR (Reply 10):
The tower controller informed the greyhound to get back to his carrier ASAP and tell his people to get their aircraft out of commercial air corridors and in future to tell them when they are playing about.

Right, what you're saying is they DIDN'T have right of way at Kai Tak...they just thought they did!

Like I said, Iraq may have special rules regarding military flights...but again, 'right-of-way' has nothing to do with the initial post.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Boeing744
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:59 pm

Back on topic...

Kudos to the Gulf Air pilot! His quick thinking and experience probably saved many lives. I am assuming this would be an A330, right?
 
Thomson735
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:05 am

Last time i flew out to Goa India, on FCA we flew through Iraq albeit the Northern borders but we still corssed Iraqi airspace, i dont think its really a threat, Terrorist over there dnt have the ability to shoot an airliner down from for eg FL350 the only people who do are the allies,  Wink so with that i think its relatively safe Big grin

Thomson735
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:11 am

Ok, I'm going to give it to you straight. I was a controller at Balad AB, Iraq last summer (returned September 2005). I worked Baghdad Center, which later became Balad Center. Iraq is broken up into three different centers, Kirkuk (now Baghdad North Center) which controls the north 1/3 of the country, Balad Center controls the middle 1/3 of the country, and Talil Center (now Ali Center) controls the south 1/3 of the country.

EDIT: I took out some stuff that probably shouldn't have been in here...sorry.

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
Also who right now are the controllers in Iraq?

USAF ATC controls all airspace in Iraq except for Basra. Certain areas in Iraq have Army and Marine controllers.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace?

Several airlines fly into Iraq. Jordanian and Iraqi Air fly into Baghdad. KLM, Kuwaiti, Gulf Air, CargoLux, British Airways, Giant, Martinair, and several others overfly Iraq...including all the rotator flights into Al Udied Air Base in Qatar.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

Not in terms of ground to air fire (for transiting flights). But yes, flights that land in Iraq will occasionally take small arms fire and the occasional C-130 will report RPG fire.

Quoting Qantas767 (Reply 5):
The RAAF controlled Baghdad International for a while, Im not sure if that coverage extended to the whole country, or if they are still in country

Nope, not true. At least as of 2005.

[Edited 2006-10-03 17:42:23]
 
David L
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting N754PR (Reply 10):
I remember many years ago at Kai Tak, there was a greyhound getting ready to depart back to a carrier in the SCS when on radar a pilot started telling the controller there was a UFO on his radar, later he comes back saying its a military plane (he can see it) flying from anything from 5000 to 35000 feet. Turned out it was US Navy jets from the carrier.

Some things never change.  Smile

When I was there in 1969-1971, a civil airliner to/from Kai Tak had a near miss with some A-7s from the USS Saratoga. I went past her on the ferry across the harbour a couple of days later but I don't know where she was during the incident.
 
bond007
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 17):
Not in terms of ground to air fire (for transiting flights). But yes, flights that land in Iraq will occasionally take small arms fire and the occasional C-130 will report RPG fire.

Yes, from the NOTAM is appears FL 200 is the minimum transit altitude:

"2. Flight prohibition. No person may conduct flight operations over or within the territory of Iraq except as provided in paragraphs 3 and 4 of this SFAR or except as follows:

(a) Overflights of Iraq may be conducted above flight level (FL) 200 subject to the approval of, and in accordance with the conditions established by, the appropriate authorities of Iraq.

(b) Flights departing from countries adjacent to Iraq whose climb performance will not permit operation above FL 200 prior to entering Iraqi airspace may operate at altitudes below FL 200 within Iraq to the extent necessary to permit a climb above FL 200, subject to the approval of, and in accordance with the conditions established by, the appropriate authorities of Iraq."


Jimbo
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AirWillie6475
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting CRGsFuture (Reply 1):
I think the most important thing to remember is that in the US, transient military aircraft have right of way.

Actually in the U.S hot air balloons have the right of way before any type of aircraft.
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 20):
Actually in the U.S hot air balloons have the right of way before any type of aircraft.

Actually, an aircraft in distress has the right of way over any other aircraft!
 
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United787
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace? I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

Won't United also be flying over Iraq when they start flying to Kuwait from IAD?

Quoting BAtriple7 (Reply 12):
1. Iraq is not in the US

You didn't hear? Things are going so well in Iraq, W has decided to annex Iraq as our 51st state. Sorry Puerto Rico and D.C., you will just have to wait a little longer.
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:22 am

Quoting United787 (Reply 22):
Won't United also be flying over Iraq when they start flying to Kuwait from IAD?

I'd say most likely they will. Unless they choose to fly over the Mediterranean and over Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and then into Kuwait. It'd most likely be more economical to fly over Iraq however.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 4):
Why would the GF aircraft fly over Iraqi airspace? I thought it was still dangerous to overfly Iraq.

What possible danger can there be flying over Iraq at FL300+? RPGs aren't saturn v rockets.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
PADSpot
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Im wondering if it was an unmanned drone or perhaps a surveilance platform of some sort.

Drones often have the same systems as a "normal" aircraft. They just relay all radio communication to the operator/pilot on the ground. I don't know about TCAS. Do military aircraft (especially those comparable to civil airliners like KC-135s, KC-10, B-52 etc ...) have TCAS at all? They are not required to have it as far as I know ...
 
BladeLWS
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 24):
What possible danger can there be flying over Iraq at FL300+? RPGs aren't saturn v rockets.

Most likely below that is military airspace, helo's, fighters, cargo aircraft. They probably don't need a civvie flying around in that area while A-10's and F-16's are performing CAS missions.
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 25):
Drones often have the same systems as a "normal" aircraft. They just relay all radio communication to the operator/pilot on the ground. I don't know about TCAS. Do military aircraft (especially those comparable to civil airliners like KC-135s, KC-10, B-52 etc ...) have TCAS at all? They are not required to have it as far as I know ...

I won't pretend to know what avionics an F-16 has, but I will tell you that they must have something, otherwise how would they know where an aircraft is to shoot down?
 
Thomson735
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:52 am

as said theres no danger over Iraq from Militants they dont have the equip. allied forces do have the ability tho so only threat really is from our own guys, its rare but it has happend and its possible
 
dash8pilot
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:12 am

The US air force might have the right way. But they still have to follow ATC clearance very carefully. Right of way doesn't mean you can do whatever you feel like, it just means ATC will "TRY" to accommodate you first. ATC might decide that FL200 will be used for the US air force plane. So then Gulfair would have to choose another flight level and that would have be approved by ATC. But the air force plane must adhere to that flight level assigned in his last ATC clearance. I'm assuming Gulfair picked up a target on the TCAS and followed the resolution sequence on his TCAS. Who controls the airspace is not important (ie Civil or military), he who controls, controls all (both military or civil). Alot of airports and air spaces in the world are joint military and civil, there are airports where C152 are landing behind F18 Hornets.
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:25 am

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 26):
Most likely below that is military airspace, helo's, fighters, cargo aircraft.

Don't forget the AN-12's/24's, 737's, A300's, and other aircraft that fly into the airports around the nation. It's not just military aircraft below FL200

Quoting Dash8pilot (Reply 29):
But they still have to follow ATC clearance very carefully.

Fighters over there don't fly under ATC clearance...they're controlled by a non-control agency that gives what's called a point-out to ATC. ATC will then clear that airspace at that altitude because the radar is so unreliable over there. Non-radar procedures go into effect. It does happen often that this non-control agency forgets to tell ATC and that's where you get the problems in Iraq.

Quoting Dash8pilot (Reply 29):
But the air force plane must adhere to that flight level assigned in his last ATC clearance.

Yes, but most likely in this situation it was a fighter and they don't get regular ATC clearances over there.
 
ClearedDirect
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:42 am

I believe there are more than just American military aircraft flying above Iraq.
Arent the Canadians and British flying there as well?

I would like to see some type of reference to the story in question.
I have searched Google and cannot find anything.
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting ClearedDirect (Reply 31):
Arent the Canadians and British flying there as well?

British? Yes. Canadians? I don't think so...but not as of September 2005.
 
ClearedDirect
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:53 am

I guess they just have ground forces then.
My bad, I think they may be only in Afganistan.

[Edited 2006-10-03 20:54:31]
 
ATCGOD
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:58 am

Quoting ClearedDirect (Reply 33):
My bad, I think they may be only in Afganistan.

I think you're right on that. Remember the unfortunate friendly fire incident a few years ago?
 
Gary2880
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 34):
I think you're right on that. Remember the unfortunate friendly fire incident a few years ago?

would that be the one where one of your patriot missiles managed to shoot down one of our tornado's?

dont think the pilot and nav would agree that it was very friendly.

if they were still alive to say so anyway.

[Edited 2006-10-03 21:31:25]
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
3MilesToWRO
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting BladeLWS (Reply 26):
They probably don't need a civvie flying around in that area while A-10's and F-16's are performing CAS missions.

Because of what? Wake turbulence? :->
 
ClearedDirect
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 35):
Quoting ATCGOD (Reply 34):
I think you're right on that. Remember the unfortunate friendly fire incident a few years ago?

would that be the one where one of your patriot missiles managed to shoot down one of our tornado's?

dont think the pilot and nav would agree that it was very friendly.

if they were still alive to say so anyway.

I believe he is referring to a Canadian friendly fire incident where one of our aircraft dropped ordinance on their position when they called for close air support.
I do not recall a patriot taking down a tornado - when/where was that???
 
Gary2880
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:23 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot...ot_Fratricides_.28Friendly_Fire.29

Wasn't very long into the start of the war as far as i can remember. Month or so? No date on there i'm afraid.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
Gary2880
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:28 pm

Quoting ClearedDirect (Reply 37):
I believe he is referring to a Canadian friendly fire incident where one of our aircraft dropped ordinance on their position when they called for close air support.

Oh, they also did that to us too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2921807.stm
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
SWISSER
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RE: Gulf Air Pilot Averts Mid-air Collision Over Iraq

Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:30 am

Mmmm, According to my system the flight was operated on A40-LH A340,
and this was the crew on flight! I know some of them including the captain, let's see what they have to say about all this!

Anyway it's quite normal to fly over Iraq these days.


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