osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:10 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...l=/money/2006/10/03/cnairbus03.xml

This is probably worthy of a new thread as a) the old one is long and b) this is some new information.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13069
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:04 am

I can understand why Hamburg's Senate is upset. If Airbus move the XFW operation to TLS, it would seem like lots of money will get lost. €750 millions isn't something you can waste.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:22 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 1):
I can understand why Hamburg's Senate is upset. If Airbus move the XFW operation to TLS, it would seem like lots of money will get lost. €750 millions isn't something you can waste.

Nope I don't blame them either. Also intersting in that article was the comment regarding the folks from the British plants being flown in for meetings regarding cuts.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
commavia
Posts: 9629
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:33 am

The most telling excerpt:

Thomas Mirow, the German finance secretary, has called for Berlin to take a direct stake in Airbus to prevent plant being switched to cheaper sites in Russia, India and China. He wants the state-bank Kfw to buy a bloc of EADS stock from DaimlerChrysler, which owns 22.5pc, a move that would amount to creeping nationalisation.

So finally it comes out: this pillar of the suposedly fantastic pan-European (anti-Anglosaxon) social/commercial model is -- big surprise -- turning to the government to bail them out because their economics don't work. Airbus has been focused too much on satisfying political interests rather than focusing on economic interests and the market.

Thus, we get the A380 which, while a technical marvel, is an increasingly-costly aircraft that, realistically, has a very small market prospect for the long-term.

Thus, we get Airbus management contemplating reductions at their manufacturing facilities to cut costs and become more efficient, only to have the impacted parties ask the government to step in and buy a part of the company.

Airbus' internal problems are no longer sustainable because a restructured and refocused Boeing -- with a dynamic sales force and an uber-attractive product (787) -- is now competitive much, much more effectively. Airbus has been sustainable up to now because state "research and development" subsidies have allowed them to lower their asking price for their planes and undercut competitor prices. But, unfortunately for Airbus, those days are now over.

There, I said it, the elephant in the room just went on a rampage.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:34 am

Unfortunately the word 'Axe' in the headline is wrong, Osiris30 - not your fault, or even probably the journalist's, probably the sub-editor's.

The story confirms what we knew, that Streiff wants to concentrate A380 production at Toulouse and switch the A320 to Hamburg. That might not be a bad deal for the Germans in the medium-term. At least they'll be building all the single-aisles, which are Airbus' only 'solid' products at the moment.

Odd how so many people - apparently including people in Airbus - see the A380 as the key project. It isn't, of course, it basically belongs to the past. The future is the A320 and the A350.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:43 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Unfortunately the word 'Axe' in the headline is wrong, Osiris30

Ya I know Nav.. just reporting it under that headline as articles seem to get carried multiple times these days due to news wires. Makes a search on the forum easier IMHO.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
Odd how so many people - apparently including people in Airbus - see the A380 as the key project. It isn't, of course, it basically belongs to the past. The future is the A320 and the A350.

Well I don't think it's the 320 either.. the 737 and 320 are both drawing to a close on their incredible careers. The 350 *is* the future of Airbus for the next 15-20 years IMHO.

As an aside the two parts of that article I found most interesting were:

Quote:
As rumours swept the sprawling Airbus network of 16 plants yesterday, British union leaders were told they would be meeting next week with Airbus chief Christian Streiff at the company's headquarters in Toulouse.

The A380s wings are built at Broughton in North Wales, a specialised task that cannot easily be moved elsewhere. But sources said there was no guarantee that all 13,000 Airbus staff in Britain would escape the cull.

Not because it was surprising, but it does seem to confirm cuts far and wide and:

Quote:
Hints that the A380 production line in Germany might be downgraded have provoked fury in the Hamburg Senate. The city has spent €750m to help secure the future of the plant, where the A380 cabins are installed with parts shipped from Toulouse.

Just further demonstrates the issues that Strieff has to deal with. (As well as being again, new information)
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
BOE773
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:47 am

I would think that the awkard and time consuming surface transportation of the A380 fuselage shells also is a deciding factor in the consolidation of production. Moving these big shells by barge then having to truck them along narrow roads and thru little old villages with minimal clearances is not a modern way to assemble an aircraft.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 5):
Well I don't think it's the 320 either.. the 737 and 320 are both drawing to a close on their incredible careers.

Yes - didnt want to mention the A320's looming problem. The 737 is currently out-selling Airbus' single-aisles by a factor of nearly three to one (503 to 186 this year).

Worse that that for the A320 in isolation. Incredibly, the 787 has outsold it this year (110 to 99).
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
There, I said it, the elephant in the room just went on a rampage.

Wrong elephant. Or wrong room. Even NAV20 -

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 4):
The future is the A320 and the A350.

- admits that the A320 is a critical part of Airbus' future, so if Hamburg gets that, they should be very happy.

It makes very little sense to have the A320 manufactured in Toulouse, and the rest of the family (A318, A319 and A321) at Finkenwerder.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
So finally it comes out: this pillar of the suposedly fantastic pan-European (anti-Anglosaxon) social/commercial model is -- big surprise -- turning to the government to bail them out because their economics don't work.

What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

The "creeping nationalism" is more a reflection of the political views - and profound anti-European-ism - at the Telegraph than political reality at Airbus or in Germany.

 confused 

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:14 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

Whatever you call it, government intervention is sometimes unavoidable. But it shouldn't just 'reinforce failure', it should be aimed at setting up a new viable structure.

This is getting to be like 'watching old movies' to me. Increasing similarities to the case of 'Rolls-Royce 1971.' Minus, of course, any 'game-changing' product in the class of the RB211 engine (now known as the Trent).
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 9):
But it shouldn't just 'reinforce failure', it should be aimed at setting up a new viable structure.

I would be disinclined to call the A320 - or what has happened at Finkenwerder - "a failure".

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
BOE773
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:22 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
So finally it comes out: this pillar of the suposedly fantastic pan-European (anti-Anglosaxon) social/commercial model

So is Britain not European ?
It did join the EU, didn't it ?
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:27 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

I respectfully disagree. That's starting to dance with some very thinly veiled euphemisms.

The government is taking a stake in industry as casuality for the mis-management of the A380 program. More bluntly, the political interest of the German state are at odds with the commercial realities of the EADS/Airbus conglomerate, and state control of industry is necessary to insure those political interest are met.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
- admits that the A320 is a critical part of Airbus' future, so if Hamburg gets that, they should be very happy.

Aparently the German government doesn't think so...

Let's say they do get the entire A320 line, but what about the A320 replacement? If Airbus is still struggling when it comes time for A320 replacement (a possibility that cannot be denied), Airbus may turn to final production outside Europe. That leaves France with the widebodies and Germany with.... nothing.

Why else would the German government take a direct stake in EADS?

Thomas Mirow, the German finance secretary, has called for Berlin to take a direct stake in Airbus to prevent plant being switched to cheaper sites in Russia, India and China. He wants the state-bank Kfw to buy a bloc of EADS stock from DaimlerChrysler, which owns 22.5pc, a move that would amount to creeping nationalisation.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

Thanks Mariner. It seems bail-out must have a different meaning in the N Hemi. This shuffle is about ownership. As Astuteman keeps pointing out in other threads, EADS does not seem to be short of money just at present. The future, well that might not be as rosy as they had hoped. But they still have a huge and profitable business even in the midst of their current woes.

Away from Airbus, this discussion also comes at a time when privatization is starting to hit a few "bumps". So triumphalists for for that process should also have a care.

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 11):
So is Britain not European ?
It did join the EU, didn't it ?

Depends who is asking! And also who you are asking in Britain. Reminds one of the old saying of what happens to those who try to sit on a fence!
 
commavia
Posts: 9629
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:38 pm

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 11):
So is Britain not European ?

Economically, not really.

Britain's economy (and Ireland's) operate much more like America's than like Europe's. Continental Europe is a socialist haven with stagnant economies and high unemployment.

One needs look no further than Msr. Chirac's nearly continual criticism of the "Anglo-Saxon model" to recognize that at least when it comes to economics, Britain is decidedly not like its E.U. neighbors.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

Thanks Mariner. It seems bail-out must have a different meaning in the N Hemi. This shuffle is about ownership. As Astuteman keeps pointing out in other threads, EADS does not seem to be short of money just at present. The future, well that might not be as rosy as they had hoped. But they still have a huge and profitable business even in the midst of their current woes.

Away from Airbus, this discussion also comes at a time when privatization is starting to hit a few "bumps". So triumphalists for for that process should also have a care.

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 11):
So is Britain not European ?
It did join the EU, didn't it ?

Depends who is asking! And also who you are asking in Britain. Reminds one of the old saying of what happens to those who try to sit on a fence!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
I respectfully disagree. That's starting to dance with some very thinly veiled euphemisms.

You can think that. I don't. Europe has a long history of investment in private enterprise.

It may not be the American way, but that doesn't make it wrong. That's why it is Europe.

It may be preferable to what is happening to (say) the Thatcher-ised airlines in Australia and New Zealand, but that's a politcla debate.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
and state control of industry is necessary to insure those political interest are met.

I didn't read "state control". And I am not clear how a minority stake can be "control".

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Let's say they do get the entire A320 line, but what about the A320 replacement?

What indeed? It is really jumping the gun to suggest it won't go to Finkenwerder.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Why else would the German government take a direct stake in EADS?

As a counter balance to the investment games the Russians are playing, perhaps?

To keep parity with the French - or even surpass it?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
BOE773
Posts: 413
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:02 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:45 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
Britain is decidedly not like its E.U. neighbors.

Then why did it join the EU ?

Sorry for the little bit of thread creep here guys, but we will get back on track.
 
commavia
Posts: 9629
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 17):
Then why did it join the EU ?

It's a topic left for another thread, but I think anyone who lives in the U.K. -- regardless of their personal political and/or ideological orientation or personal opinion regarding European integration -- would readily tell you that the U.K. is one of the most "Eurosceptic" countries in the E.U. The U.K. is perhaps the most reluctant western European E.U. member when it comes to the union -- poll after poll shows that Britons don't want the Euro and, oftentimes, don't want to deal with the E.U.'s bureaucratic politics and being told what to do by unelected officials in Brussels. The U.K. also has one of the most active and impassioned anti-E.U. ("Independence") movements in all of Europe.
 
airfrnt
Posts: 1992
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:05 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:50 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
What bail out? An investment is not a bail-out.

I respectfully disagree. That's starting to dance with some very thinly veiled euphemisms.

Bail out definitely has a particular connotation. As in, if you don't bail the boat, you are going to sink. I don't think anyone here is arguing that Airbus won't be around on January 1st 2007 unless this happens.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):

The government is taking a stake in industry as casuality for the mis-management of the A380 program. More bluntly, the political interest of the German state are at odds with the commercial realities of the EADS/Airbus conglomerate, and state control of industry is necessary to insure those political interest are met.

This is more a reflection of the tug of war over Airbus's identity. EU governments have propped Airbus up for the last 30-40 years, only since the introduction of the A320 have they been solvent as a actual enterprise. Now the question becomes should Airbus work in the interest of their shareholders, or the interest of their governments.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):


Let's say they do get the entire A320 line, but what about the A320 replacement? If Airbus is still struggling when it comes time for A320 replacement (a possibility that cannot be denied), Airbus may turn to final production outside Europe. That leaves France with the widebodies and Germany with.... nothing.

I would argue that it's not just the specter of the A380 orders going away but the specter of a second line opening in China worries them greatly. Remember that the A380 was supposed to be the flagship of a dominate Airbus. Given Airbus's political nature, Germany was not about to be let out of the most prestigious project. Germany and France split the prestige, ensured problems for the A380, and the UK got to fight over the scraps... All for plane not likely to make it's backers a single cent of profit.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Yes - didnt want to mention the A320's looming problem. The 737 is currently out-selling Airbus' single-aisles by a factor of nearly three to one (503 to 186 this year).

Worse that that for the A320 in isolation. Incredibly, the 787 has outsold it this year (110 to 99).

Both the 320 and 737 are nearing the end of their successful lives. We all know it's coming. They are both fairly evenly matched competitors and really it's a toss up between the two of them. I expect orders will ebb and flow between the two camps until they are both retired.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
It makes very little sense to have the A320 manufactured in Toulouse, and the rest of the family (A318, A319 and A321) at Finkenwerder.

 checkmark 

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
The "creeping nationalism" is more a reflection of the political views - and profound anti-European-ism - at the Telegraph than political reality at Airbus or in Germany.

Important to note that as someone who isn't in the UK I don't know the politcal leanings of the source. And that is relevant information.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 10):
I would be disinclined to call the A320 - or what has happened at Finkenwerder - "a failure".

His comment was with regards to the 380 and you knew that. Disagree with his calling the 380 a failure, but you know he wasn't referring to the 320. Furthermore I think Nav was even hoping for a better Airbus in the future with that comment.

Quoting BOE773 (Reply 11):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 3):
So finally it comes out: this pillar of the suposedly fantastic pan-European (anti-Anglosaxon) social/commercial model

So is Britain not European ?

Commavia was referring to the fact that the UK is much more about open markets than the rest of Europe. The whole open market, capitalism at all costs thing was started under Margarette Thatcher. The balance of Europe is largely more socialist in terms of economics.

However, please, let's not turn this thread into a discussion of the merits of both systems (and both have benefits LOL)
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 14):
Britain's economy (and Ireland's)

For what it is worth, Ireland has had a financial bonanza since they joined the EU.

And yes, Britiain can be said to be more "Euro-sceptic" than others - for long historical reasons, some of which are far from desirable.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
commavia
Posts: 9629
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 21):
Ireland has had a financial bonanza since they joined the EU.

By advocating the exact opposite economic policies of most of their western European E.U. neighbors.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:59 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 20):
His comment was with regards to the 380 and you knew that.

No, I did not know that. I read it again, and I still do not know that.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:01 pm

I would have no objection to 'nationalisation', in the sense of a government or governments taking a majority shareholding in EADS. I don't myself think that that would produce a successful company, but that's only my opinion.

But what MUST stop is three governments running the company through the back door. At present only 20.5% of EADS shares are directly held by governments.

To put it another way, Chirac and Merkel appear to be calling all the important shots on EADS/Airbus - including, as we found out recently, who runs it, what their nationalities must be, and where the company locates its manufacturing plants.

While 80 cents in every Euro they're risking (losing?) belongs to a private investor.

[Edited 2006-10-03 06:04:53]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 23):
No, I did not know that. I read it again, and I still do not know that.

Well you should have been able to infer it then :P No one, not matter how anti-Airbus would claim the 320 was a failure.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 25):
Well you should have been able to infer it then :P No one, not matter how anti-Airbus would claim the 320 was a failure.

I should "infer"?

Wow.

Then I guess I should "infer" that the A380 is a failure. Why don't I do that?

mariner

[Edited 2006-10-03 06:04:35]
aeternum nauta
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5806
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 24):
To put it another way, Chirac and Merkel appear to be calling all the important shots on EADS/Airbus - including, as we found out recently, who runs it, what their nationalities must be, and where the copmany locates its manufacturing plants.

To be fair, Merkel is vehemently hands-off. She is most unlike Chirac (or Schroeder, for that matter.)
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:06 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
By advocating the exact opposite economic policies of most of their western European E.U. neighbors.

Ireland had those same economic policies in place before they joined the EU - and they were a financial basket case.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:14 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
I should "infer"?

Wow.

Then I guess I should "infer" that the A380 is a failure. Why don't I do that?

You know I had an equally arogant and snotty reply all typed up for you, then I realized, why lower myself to that level.

Quote:
in¡Efer  /ɪnˈfɜr/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-fur]
5. to draw a conclusion, as by reasoning.



Quote:
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 20):
His comment was with regards to the 380 and you knew that.

No, I did not know that. I read it again, and I still do not know that.



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 25):
Well you should have been able to infer it then :P

You should have been able to 'draw a conclusion, as by reasoning' that he wouldn't call the 320 a failure, as no one would call the 320 a failure. If you want to be an a** about the whole thing fine. You'll also notice I put a :P after my post indicating I was being cheeky and it was posted in good humo(u)r.

Maybe if you tried to infer meaning, rather than throwing up red herrings by picking up on subtle language based flaws we could have more constructive discussions.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:16 pm

Agree that Chirac is the most powerful (and awkward) figure, N328KF.

If it DOES come to nationalisation I'd think that the best solution would be for the French Government to buy out all the other main shareholders.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:23 pm

ing frpom what oen read -

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 29):
You know I had an equally arogant and snotty reply all typed up for you, then I realized, why lower myself to that level.

I am sorry you think that taking meaning from what one reads is "arrogant and snotty".

And telling me that I knew something from what I had read - when clearly I did not and do not - may not be arrogant and snotty, but it is curiously condescending.

I don't "infer" anything from what is posted here. Especially not in debates about Airbus.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:27 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
By advocating the exact opposite economic policies of most of their western European E.U. neighbors.

Ireland had those same economic policies in place before they joined the EU - and they were a financial basket case.

mariner

Mariner he's too young to remember, and definately to have seen Ireland suceed basically because it all of a sudden become a cheap place to do business. (kinda like spain). Anyway back to the topic. Airbus needs to restructure, everybody in Airbus knows this and that's why they're trying to do it. Like Boeing, they're not adverse to the idea of outsourcing etc... funny the Boeing De hallivand plant in Melbourne makes parts for both Airbus and Boeing!!! Anyway, point is, All politicians come under pressure when there are job losses in their country and obviously there is pressure to 'step in' and stop it. In this case I'd say there is litle hope. This is one of the problems with the single currency... if this area wants to function as one economy part of that is restructuring and the shifting of manufacturing bases to other areas with better 'opportunity costs'.... which means some job losses in some areas.

I think some of you guys are jumping up and down on Merkel too much. she hasn't indicated that she wants to throw money away at any expense to save face and jobs... even if the city of Hamburg feel like they've been cheated (and they probably have been). But that in some ways is their own fault. Jumping up and down on Germany and accusing it of being "anti-anglosaxon" isn't seeing the full picture. It is more likely than not guys, that this move will go ahead. Now if the Russians get a piece of Airbus, well that could do wonders for its competitive position... food for thought.
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:29 pm

Marnier:

Oh well, your loss really. Have a good one.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 4:21 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 24):
But what MUST stop is three governments running the company through the back door. At present only 20.5% of EADS shares are directly held by governments.

We can agree on Airbus Nav, must mark it down. Joking aside, that seems fair enough, especially as they seem to have a number of doors of different sizes.

As Mariner points out, it is ownership that is being discussed (as far as we know) and not subs as some others wish to infer. The ownership, in turn, will influence the extent to which governments can try to influence Airbus.

One way or another, you would think that no government would be keen to have the possibility of being associated with the current A380 woes. But then again, this world is full of surprises and many of them unpleasant.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
- admits that the A320 is a critical part of Airbus' future, so if Hamburg gets that, they should be very happy.

It makes very little sense to have the A320 manufactured in Toulouse, and the rest of the family (A318, A319 and A321) at Finkenwerder.

If we can come back to this point without worrying about how the Irish run their economy, this seems an eminently sensible comment. Without the A32x, Airbus would be in a pickle. Other things being equal, consolidating the 32x in one location sounds a good idea.

Apart from its production, the development of improved versions right through to the eventual replacement will also be of key importance. Other things being equal, it should be easier to maintain an advantage (large or small, however you view it) than trying to fight for a new one.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:36 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
Aparently the German government doesn't think so...

The "German government"?? This is the finance secretary speaking out of his a... well... voicing his opinion - it's not even the finance minister, so this is not even the person calling the shots in that particular part of the government.

Hardly the "German government" talking...

Quoting N328KF (Reply 27):
To be fair, Merkel is vehemently hands-off. She is most unlike Chirac (or Schroeder, for that matter.)

... and thank goodness for that... especially the "unlike Schröder"-part!!!
Smile - it confuses people!
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:49 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
If we can come back to this point without worrying about how the Irish run their economy

Oh, all right, if you want.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
Without the A32x, Airbus would be in a pickle.

Perhaps, but this is true of many manufacturing companies. Who knows where Ford would be if they hadn't come up with the Model T?

I remember Rolls Royce as a sacred name, but this didn't stop their bankruptcy.

Wasn't there a loan guaranteed by the US government - $250 million or some such, a lot of money then - something to do with the engine for the Lockheed 1011?

And were Rolls Royce not nationalized by the the British government, becoming a state corporation?

Looking on the bright side, Airbus does have the A320. They also have the (often forgotten) A330, too.

mariner

[Edited 2006-10-03 10:50:46]
aeternum nauta
 
astuteman
Posts: 6340
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 7:05 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 34):
it is ownership that is being discussed (as far as we know) and not subs

What's wrong with discussing subs ?.... biggrin 

If I had anything constructive to add relative to the thread I would.
Sorry guys.

Maybe if I leave you with this thought:-

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
The "creeping nationalism" is more a reflection of the political views - and profound anti-European-ism - at the Telegraph than political reality at Airbus or in Germany.

On the very day back in 1986 that our wonderful shipyard was (re)privatised and became, by Management Buy-Out,
Vickers Shipbuilding and Engineering Ltd (VSEL),
the Telegraph was just one of a number of supposedly quality broadsheets that carried the front-page headline:-

"Ministers Accept Trafalgar Bid for Vickers Yard"

Headlined on the VERY day our Management Buy-Out was successful.

Always have a care when debating something written in a newspaper, or any other publication.

Regards
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:05 pm

The arguments between France and Germany over EADS/Airbus show the truth behind a lot of the pan European rhetoric. Airbus has always been a European showpiece, but especially a showpiece for the 2 main countries, and they will fight hard to maintain their country's share.

It makes entire sense for all the narrowbodies to be assembled in Hamburg and widebodies in Toulouse. That it hasn't happened yet, reflects badly on the organisation.

Incidentally, RR has recently transferred it's V2500 assembly line to it's German subsidiary, to concentrate all it's 2 shaft turbfans there. It must be a joy to make decisions based on economic and industrial reasoning!
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
Ireland had those same economic policies in place before they joined the EU

What total rubbish. Ireland joined what was then the EEC 33 years ago in 1973. Then the world was a very different place to what it is today. No developed country would have survived let alone economically prospered as the Republic of Ireland has by maintaining unchanged economic policies for that length of time.
 
User avatar
USAF336TFS
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:42 pm

For all those who believe, wrongly IMHO, that LH fleet decisions are based on what's built in Germany, I'm curious how they think this will effect LH's pending widebody order. I have always doubted that it has any affect one way or another. I do believe however, that the delays in EIS are of far greater concern to LH.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
warren747sp
Posts: 979
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 7:51 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:47 pm

Didn't Airbus plan to move the A320 production line to China.? So what would they build in Germany? Maybe parts for Boeing like the Japanese...
747SP
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:28 am

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2191995,00.html

Airbus Set to Announce Massive Restructuring

Quote:

France's economics minister, Thierry Breton, has come out in support of Streiff and EADS management, saying the restructuring would be "good for customers, employees and shareholders." But the changes could have dramatic effects for workers at Airbus' 17 European production facilities.



In Hamburg, 2,500 of Airbus' 12,000 employees were hired directly to work on the A380. If production of that model were transferred exclusively to France, they could find themselves out of a job.



Meanwhile, workers in Toulouse fear losing the A320 model, which accounted for 80 to 90 percent of Airbus' orders in 2005. French unions are demanding that Germany bear the brunt of the restructuring, arguing that Airbus in France is already using foreign labor to meet 50 to 70 percent of its needs. Hamburg's senator for economics, Gunnar Uldall, on the other hand, has dismissed the idea of transferring production of the A380 away from his city as "nonsense."


I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22927
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 41):
Didn't Airbus plan to move the A320 production line to China.? So what would they build in Germany? Maybe parts for Boeing like the Japanese...

I imagine completion of the second Hamburg line would have preference over the first Chinese one.
 
Leskova
Posts: 5547
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 3:39 pm

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 43):
Quoting Warren747sp (Reply 41):
Didn't Airbus plan to move the A320 production line to China.? So what would they build in Germany? Maybe parts for Boeing like the Japanese...

I imagine completion of the second Hamburg line would have preference over the first Chinese one.

Especially since the decision about the Chinese line was recently moved to a later date... and the Chinese line was not supposed to be the only line, but an additional one. With hindsight, that could have already been a sign of things to come, the decision to not add another layer of complexity (i.e. a production line at the far end of another continent) before the "local" (i.e. European) production lines have been re-arranged.

And in any case, Hamburg already has - and will (obviously keep) the A318, A319 and A321.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
jfk777
Posts: 5816
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:43 am

If its best for the A320 to be in Hamburg and the A380 to in Toulouse then so be it. Airbus reminds me a bunch of Latin American nations fighting over scraps.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18098
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 39):
No developed country would have survived let alone economically prospered as the Republic of Ireland has by maintaining unchanged economic policies for that length of time.

The basic Irish economy followed the British model. Britain imposed the financial structure. Even the unit of money was called the pound.

It made Ireland the financial basket case that it was. Ireland was not Britain.

Of course, they changed when they went into the EU - why else join? - but they did not abandon the underlying attitude to national economics - the balance of state and private. Just as Britain has not.

???

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
osiris30
Posts: 2310
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 10:16 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:46 am

Quote:
STUTTGART, Germany, Oct. 3 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Within the context
of preparing its financial statements for the third quarter of 2006,
Daimler Chrysler will determine to what extent the issues announced today
by EADS will have an impact on the operating profit of DaimlerChrysler in
full-year 2006.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...story/10-03-2006/0004444572&EDATE=
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
pilot21
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 1999 8:28 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 46):
Even the unit of money was called the pound.

Actually it was called the Punt, but the English speaking world translated that into Irish Pound. You may have more yrs on me, but please don't try and give an economic history lesson on Ireland from the far side of the World.

Sticking with the thread discussion, Airbus is a viable company that isn't being Nationalised overnight. It has very big issues with the A380 , but every company has set backs, this one is large and how the Company deals with it over the next 3 yrs will show us if Mgt can face up to the challenge. (My initial assessment is that they are on the road to fixing it.)
Secondly, it must be remembered that the article quotes 1 Finance Secretary who has called for the State Bank to purchase shares. The entire Govt. has not spoken on the matter as 1 voice, and mostly likely his statement won't be acted upon anyway.
Perhaps a lot of people are getting a little heated over 1 article?
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
Glom
Posts: 2051
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2005 2:38 am

RE: Airbus Plan To Axe German Plant Sparks Crisis Talk

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:25 am

Oh dear! Keynes just won't die!