Salomon
Topic Author
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Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:46 pm

The Globe and mail has released over 100 pages of internal emails related to the lawsuit with Air Canada that is now settled. The Westjet executives were using some ex-Air Canada employee passwords to get route loads on the employee website.
Click here
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yow
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:46 am

Thanks Salomon, this is an interesting read.
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:54 am

Awesome read, thanks sharing
Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
 
Salomon
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:20 am

No problems!
Some sections are pretty interesting. Especially when Marc Hill wrote that Michel Leblanc was lying about load factors (page 29).
Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
 
CXH
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:29 am

Skimming through the PDF I notice a lot of future load factors for Air Canada, including asian routes, and the oversold seat counts. If there was any doubt, it shows this case was far beyond counting pax at gates!

BTW, here's the full article:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl....w2westjetmain03/BNStory/Business/
I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
 
swissy
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:17 am

Thanks Salomon,

I guess there goes the "Friendly neighbourhood Airline" slogan...  scratchchin 
and yes these e-mails are very interesting, have met most of these people in person, wow I am kind of speechless.............

Cheers,
 
chewingplastic
Posts: 62
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:43 am

Wow, I wouldn't expect so many of these emails to be written so informally.
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:33 am

Very intersting read indeed! Thanks to original poster, as it sheds some light on the case ...
 
swissy
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:55 am

Quoting ChewingPlastic (Reply 6):
Wow, I wouldn't expect so many of these emails to be written so informally.

And most of the "confidential" stuff was done trough a ISP and not the WS e-mail..... wow..........

Cheers,
 
Salomon
Topic Author
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:29 am

Takeoffs are optional; landings are mandatory.
 
jamincan
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:37 am

I'd say that his e-mails speak pretty clearly on their own without the Globe & Mail article. It's also obvious from the e-mails that he knew what he was doing was wrong. That said, corporate espionage is a fact of life these days, and he just happened to be one of the ones that got caught. Does it paint a bad face on him? Yeah, but then I'm pretty sure most corporate executives have their skeletons as well.
 
commavia
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:56 am

If real -- which I don't see any reason it isn't -- this document is pretty disturbing. It looks like the WestJet people -- all the way to, incontrovertibly, the CEO -- knew what they were doing was wrong and want to keep it "hush hush" so as "not to tip [their] hand." They also actively sought out private, confidential internal data from Air Canada on flight loads and acted on them by discussing schedule changes on routes like YYZ-YYJ to combat Air Canada/Zip flights.

This is just absolutely, completely, and in every way disgraceful.

[Edited 2006-10-04 04:58:57]
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:19 pm

This really has changed my view of Westjet's leaders. Reading through all 99 pages, I could not believe that the espionage had gone to this extent and for so long, and that it had such detailed information. They were making decisions based on their findings through the "hole", as their IT guy described it. It also appears that not only did they know what they were doing was wrong, but they had also taken steps to make their conversations "off the record" through the use of their ISPs. Then there was also that message about being able to get data out of Westjet and into one of the guys' home systems, and trying to get clearance from the company's internal audit...

And of course, this was not limited to Air Canada. They appear to have had info on Jetsgo as well.

Oh, and how could I forget the "brown bag"?
 
YWG
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:21 pm

From my past expirences of non-reving with AC, those flight loads RARELY reflect actual loads. Often they're about 10% higher.

I've been bumped....alot!
Contact Winnipeg center now on 134.4, good day.
 
9252fly
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting YWG (Reply 13):
From my past expirences of non-reving with AC, those flight loads RARELY reflect actual loads. Often they're about 10% higher.

I've been bumped....alot!

You're wrong! They are 100% accurate as the information comes from a direct link to AC reservations system.
 
ETStar
Posts: 1850
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:08 pm

Quoting 9252fly (Reply 14):
You're wrong! They are 100% accurate as the information comes from a direct link to AC reservations system.

Hhahahah can't refute that!
 
swissy
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting Jamincan (Reply 10):
That said, corporate espionage is a fact of life these days, and he just happened to be one of the ones that got caught

For sure, we are in the 21 century, however if "you" (WS) are pretending to be the clean, white, innocent sheep in public and then you get hit with sh.. like that..... Remember there is a difference between having an WS employee on AC gates and count the pax versus using illegal access to the AC computer system.....

Cheers,
 
yow
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting Salomon (Reply 3):
Some sections are pretty interesting. Especially when Marc Hill wrote that Michel Leblanc was lying about load factors

We all knew Leblanc was a fibber, but Hill actually knew exactly by how much he was skewing his numbers.

Quoting ETStar (Reply 12):
And of course, this was not limited to Air Canada. They appear to have had info on Jetsgo as well.

And CanJet too.

Quoting YWG (Reply 13):
From my past expirences of non-reving with AC, those flight loads RARELY reflect actual loads. Often they're about 10% higher.

Remember, this is data 'stolen' from 2003/2004, AC's loads have grown +10% since then. Also, many of Hill's e-mails were referring to seat load factor versus ASM/RPM LF which is what the airlines report to the public on a monthly basis. Seat LF is generally 3-7% lower.
 
fly_yhm
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:42 pm

This is pratty sad. Thats was a line in there that said something like lets show them who the real low fare leader is. Ya right guys the only reason your still around is because you cheat. Oh well like someone else said its a common practice now a days.
Where will you spend eternity? He,s more real then you think!!!!!
 
A332
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:25 am

Very interesting to be able to get a read of the original emails circulating through the WestJet executive team.

Quoting Swissy (Reply 16):
Remember there is a difference between having an WS employee on AC gates and count the pax versus using illegal access to the AC computer system.....

Well... whatever tools you end up utilizing, competitive intelligence is nothing new in the world of business.

AC left a hole wide open and WS exploited it and were caught in the process... lessons learned on both sides.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
swissy
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting A332 (Reply 19):
AC left a hole wide open and WS exploited it and were caught in the process... lessons learned on both sides.

Agree the hole was there, but if you have "values" you leave it were it is....... not buts and ifs or it is also called respect............

Cheers,
 
A332
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Swissy (Reply 20):
Agree the hole was there, but if you have "values" you leave it were it is....... not buts and ifs or it is also called respect............

It's business... values take a backseat to profitability. It's nothing new.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
smokescreen
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:51 am

Quoting A332 (Reply 21):
It's business... values take a backseat to profitability. It's nothing new.

Fair enough, but I think it will harm WestJet in the minds of those who thought of them as the plucky little guy standing up to the big bully (AC).
 
robsawatsky
Posts: 477
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:26 am

You do all realize that the revelation that Westjet knew about this spying at the highest levels is old news as covered by a press release from May 29, 2006"

"In 2003-2004, certain members
of WestJet management engaged in an extensive practice of covertly accessing a
password protected proprietary employee web site maintained by Air Canada to
download detailed and commercially sensitive information without authorization
or consent from Air Canada. This practice was undertaken with the knowledge
and direction of the highest management levels of WestJet and was not halted
until discovered by Air Canada. This conduct was both unethical and
unacceptable and WestJet accepts full responsibility for such misconduct.
WestJet sincerely regrets having engaged in this practice and unreservedly
apologizes to Air Canada and Mr. Robert Milton.
As a full settlement, WestJet has agreed to pay Air Canada's
investigation and litigation costs of $5.5 million and has accepted Air
Canada's request that WestJet make a donation in the amount of $10 million in
the name of Air Canada and WestJet to children's charities across the country.
Air Canada has accepted WestJet's apology and withdrawn its claims in light of
this settlement. All legal proceedings between the parties have been
terminated. Both parties have expressed a desire to turn the page on this
unfortunate chapter with finality and are pleased that children's charities
across Canada will also benefit from this settlement arrangement."
 
727200er
Posts: 301
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:32 am

Don't forget Canadians willingness to forgive. Look how long the liberals stayed in power.....

With recent changes in upper management, Canadians will actually admire the western upstart.

We're a funny people.
"they who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only at night" - Edgar Allen Poe
 
multimark
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:37 am

Had Westjet not gone out of their way to portray themselves since inception as the "good guys" vs. "big, bad Air Canada" this scandal would not continue to have legs. Nobody likes a hypocrite. Perhaps its time Mr. Beddoe moved on to give Westjet a clean slate.
 
swissy
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting 727200er (Reply 24):
We're a funny people.

You guys are great people!!! I know it is just my opinion, never less....

Quoting A332 (Reply 21):
It's business... values take a backseat to profitability. It's nothing new.

I am well aware of it after 20 years in the business and that is my point, you have respect or you do not..............  Wink everyone makes his own decisions.

Cheers,
 
timeair
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:00 pm

Can you believe WS actually believes by offering "LiveTV" they are going to sway that many travellers..WOW...better find a better marketing technique!
You can't get there from here.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:16 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
This is just absolutely, completely, and in every way disgraceful.

I agree. Until I read the emails this week, I had believed that CB was not involved, as he insisted. These emails show that he must have know what was going on. It's very disgraceful.

CB remains however Canada's only successful airline CEO, so that trumps this scandal, for now. I think it's fairly safe to assume that CB and the rest of WS mgmt have learnt a lesson in ethics over this. It has already cost them $10M+.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
A332
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting Swissy (Reply 26):
I am well aware of it after 20 years in the business and that is my point, you have respect or you do not.............. everyone makes his own decisions.

I'm all for respect in the world of business... but unfortunately, an opportunity for strong growth and vast profitability will always come before respect and values.

Quoting Timeair (Reply 27):
Can you believe WS actually believes by offering "LiveTV" they are going to sway that many travellers..WOW...better find a better marketing technique!

It's been offered for a long time already... and guess what? It DOES sway customers. WestJet always gets my business, the business of my co-workers, and the business of friends and family because they DO offer this product.

Unless you are some kind of insider with WestJet who has closely analyzed their sales statistics, customer loyalty and user experience feedback.. your comments are unwarranted.  sarcastic 

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
I agree. Until I read the emails this week, I had believed that CB was not involved, as he insisted. These emails show that he must have know what was going on. It's very disgraceful.

I always figured Clive also had his fingers in the pot myself. He is definitely the type of person who knows what's going on at all times at every level of the organization... so the news does not suprise or shock me.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
CB remains however Canada's only successful airline CEO, so that trumps this scandal, for now.

 checkmark  I agree.

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 28):
I think it's fairly safe to assume that CB and the rest of WS mgmt have learnt a lesson in ethics over this. It has already cost them $10M+.

Exactly... it's time to move on.
Bad spellers of the world... UNTIE!
 
yeggerman
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:15 am

IMHO, other than people who are avid airline enthusiast like everyone on a.net, I don't think this will affect WS anymore than the original lawsuit did. It's old new, and really I doubt anyone cares about it anymore. It comes down to price of the product all over again, and if they offer a competitive price with a descent product they will stay in business, and realistically paying $15mil to settle this rather than the $200mil they were being sued for and having this done with for good now, this will be nothing more than a 1 day article that will be forgotten by most next week.

Just my 2 cents.
"All great things must come to an end"
 
skedflyer
Posts: 4
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Yeggerman (Reply 30):
I don't think this will affect WS anymore than the original lawsuit did. It's old new, and really I doubt anyone cares about it anymore.

True for most of us, other than the employees that are also shareholders. CB sat there and swore to his people that he had nothing to do with this. He will have to fight for his name. At the time of the settlement the e-mails were not public to the employees, so in most people’s eye Clive was standing strong that he did not know these actions were taking place, and they took him for his word.
 
robsawatsky
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Skedflyer (Reply 31):
... CB sat there and swore to his people that he had nothing to do with this. He will have to fight for his name. At the time of the settlement ... Clive was standing strong that he did not know these actions were taking place ...

The settlement press release clearly states "with the knowledge and direction of the highest management levels of WestJet". That surely has to include CB even if he maintained some protestation of innocence.
 
skedflyer
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Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:05 am

RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Robsawatsky (Reply 32):
The settlement press release clearly states "with the knowledge and direction of the highest management levels of WestJet". That surely has to include CB even if he maintained some protestation of innocence.

Understandable, but at the time there was no direct proof, he challenged that statement from the settlement, and nobody had anything to say otherwise, and they believed there CEO. Now it's black and white for people to see. Clive I think did that faked step down as CEO knowing this would come to light, he may have fibbed, but he is far from stupid.
 
swissy
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Skedflyer (Reply 33):
Understandable, but at the time there was no direct proof, he challenged that statement from the settlement, and nobody had anything to say otherwise, and they believed there CEO. Now it's black and white for people to see. Clive I think did that faked step down as CEO knowing this would come to light, he may have fibbed, but he is far from stupid.

Agree 100% and no one should be naive to believe CB is Mr. nice guy or he would not be were he is today......

Old news or not very interesting never less, do not care about the settlement.

Cheers,
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:24 am

Quoting A332 (Reply 29):
I'm all for respect in the world of business... but unfortunately, an opportunity for strong growth and vast profitability will always come before respect and values.

A very wise CEO (old fart) once said to my: it is a sign of weakness and insecurity............  Wink if you can't do business with respect and values.....

Quoting A332 (Reply 29):
I always figured Clive also had his fingers in the pot myself. He is definitely the type of person who knows what's going on at all times at every level of the organization... so the news does not suprise or shock me.

 checkmark 

Quoting Skedflyer (Reply 33):
Understandable, but at the time there was no direct proof, he challenged that statement from the settlement, and nobody had anything to say otherwise, and they believed there CEO. Now it's black and white for people to see. Clive I think did that faked step down as CEO knowing this would come to light, he may have fibbed, but he is far from stupid.

 checkmark 

Yes he is the leader, "keep your sheeps eyes covered" so they can not see reality...

Cheers,
 
multimark
Posts: 411
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:53 pm

RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:41 am

Reading through the e-mails it is quite interesting to see how well AC was holding its own against WS. And post-bankruptcy AC's costs are lower than the period these cover.
 
Salomon
Topic Author
Posts: 191
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RE: Westjet Emails Published In The Globe And Mail

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting Multimark (Reply 36):
Reading through the e-mails it is quite interesting to see how well AC was holding its own against WS. And post-bankruptcy AC's costs are lower than the period these cover.

Yep. Zip was actually doing good. Air Canada was going to transfer 20 A319 to Zip before they were shut down because Air Canada's costs matched Zip's costs.
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