WINGS
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Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:52 am

I have been wondering for quiet some time if Airbus would be willing to ask for help from other airplane manufacturers, to help resolve the A380 issues. Maybe it's time for Airbus to swallow it's pride and ask for help.

Embraer ?
Dassault ?
Bombardier ?
Alenia ?
Saab ?
Tupolev ?

What is your view on this matter?

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
Glom
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:58 am

The A380 has issues?
 
osiris30
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
What is your view on this matter?

There's only one company on the face of the earth with experience with birds close to that size in the Pax world.. and I'm guessing they won't be too eager to help  Wink
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
NYC777
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
Embraer ?
Dassault ?
Bombardier ?
Alenia ?
Saab ?
Tupolev ?

What is your view on this matter?

Uh, you're forgetting someone.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
legoguy
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
Uh, you're forgetting someone.

LOL, as if Boaing would offer help, although it would be great to see both of the main manufacturers doing well again  Smile
Can you say 'Beer Can' without sounding like a Jamaican saying 'Bacon'?
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:06 am

Back when Boeing were behind schedule with the 747-4, they did exactly what you are suggesting.

They brought in a couple hundered Lockhead production employess (on contract from Lockhead) to help with the out of sequence work.

Cheers
 
Leskova
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:08 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 3):
Uh, you're forgetting someone.

If you're thinking of Boeing, I think Osiris30 hit the nail on the head:

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
I'm guessing they won't be too eager to help

I'm not really sure if getting outside help at the moment really would help - getting them up to speed on the project will probably take about as much time as getting them sorted out themselves... then again... an outside view can often be quite helpful - getting a fresh perspective on things can help.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
What is your view on this matter?

I'd avoid relying on half-measures and find the nearest "Eurocrats Anonymous" meeting.  Smile
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
What is your view on this matter?

You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

Now if you were to ask if they should ask for more government money, then I think you have a topic worthy of discussion.
 
Areopagus
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:10 am

Well, since the root problem is the failure to update all centers to Catia 5 and get everyone trained to use it, the obvious answer is Dassault.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:11 am

This is a classic mythical man month situation. This is (not) a problem that you can solve simply by throwing more engineers at the problem. It's a problem that is solved by training the engineers you already have to fix the problem that already exists. The classic example is that you can't have 9 women give birth to a single baby in a single month.


Airbus's only hope at this point is to fix the management problems, before it can fix the hardware problems.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting WINGS (Thread starter):
I have been wondering for quiet some time if Airbus would be willing to ask for help from other airplane manufacturers, to help resolve the A380 issues. Maybe it's time for Airbus to swallow it's pride and ask for help...What is your view on this matter?

Without knowing the actual problems, it is difficult for me to make a conclusive statement.

I imagine Airbus needs help in many areas, including whatever specific problems are affecting the A380 directly, as well as the design software, future integration of all A380-related work at Toulouse, completing and starting the second A320 production line at Hamburg, shifting of A320 production between Toulouse and Hamburg, and ramp-up on design, development, and production of the A350 program.

I imagine it's going to be a lucrative time to be a consultant...
 
mush
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 2):
There's only one company on the face of the earth with experience with birds close to that size in the Pax world.. and I'm guessing they won't be too eager to help

I would be willing to bet that you're wrong. Boeing would fly to France and Germany to help Airbus if asked to. Of course Boeing would bill Airbus for each hour that they spent on the project and of course Airbus may not get the best billable rate from Boeing...

It's all a matter of $$$$ and Euros.


Personally, I don't think Airbus will ask. How would it look if the aviation pride project of Europe needed help from the Americans.

The reason why I say aviation pride is not to start a fight, but because Airbus had PMs from some European Countries present and making speeches at the roll out of the A380. It's not often, frankly it's almost never, that you see a sitting president of the United States present, with a speaking roll, at any COMMERCIAL program. If I recall correctly, Bill Clinton was not present for the B777 roll out, please correct me if I'm wrong.


Mush
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
norcal
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

That is rather insulting to Boeing and the 747, which was 2x the size of anything built before it (much bigger size jump than the A380 is). Boeing built their a/c in much less time without the help of computers, I'd say that is a pretty amazing accomplishment. They also delivered on time (the only delay being of a month was caused by Pratt). It is also rather insulting to aircraft like the C-5, the AN-124 and AN-225.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 9):
Well, since the root problem is the failure to update all centers to Catia 5 and get everyone trained to use it,

Are you sure this is the real issue?
Take off and live
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

Of course there is. Boeing was doing three projects the size of the A380 without any computers at the same time. (747, 737 and SST). The 747 was around 300% larger then the 707, the first airliner with high bipass fans, and the first wide body to boot.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

Within the realm of jet-powered aircraft, Boeing, Lockheed, Antonov, and Hughes are examples of companies that did. Within the realm of engineering in general, there are many projects of larger size and scope. Saturn V, any large civil engineering project, etc, even EADS' own affiliate, Arianespace...
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:55 am

The A380 has a few problems that are being corrected now and is in good hands. Soon the A380 will be just like the A320 only bigger. We all know that the A320 is a nice, quiet, safe, reliable plane and the A380 will be the same.

Personally, I am beginning to wonder why this type of threads keep showing up, even though I usually enjoy watching the "A" team fight the "B" team. How long before someone starts a thread on Boeing needing airbus help for the B787?
 
osiris30
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 6):
I'm not really sure if getting outside help at the moment really would help - getting them up to speed on the project will probably take about as much time as getting them sorted out themselves... then again... an outside view can often be quite helpful - getting a fresh perspective on things can help.

Overall I give outside help a 30/70 chance of help vs. hinder. I don't think Airbus's problems are solely technical, so outside help would be of limited usefullness.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
This is a classic mythical man month situation. This is (not) a problem that you can solve simply by throwing more engineers at the problem. It's a problem that is solved by training the engineers you already have to fix the problem that already exists. The classic example is that you can't have 9 women give birth to a single baby in a single month.


Airbus's only hope at this point is to fix the management problems, before it can fix the hardware problems.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 

Quoting Mush (Reply 12):
I would be willing to bet that you're wrong. Boeing would fly to France and Germany to help Airbus if asked to. Of course Boeing would bill Airbus for each hour that they spent on the project and of course Airbus may not get the best billable rate from Boeing...

The reason I don't see Boeing going near it isn't pride/or $$, it's Y3. Boeing doesn't need their people exposed to Airbus trade secrets. That is a pandora's box that's not worth going near even for $B.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 13):
That is rather insulting to Boeing and the 747, which was 2x the size of anything built before it (much bigger size jump than the A380 is).

 checkmark 

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):
Of course there is. Boeing was doing three projects the size of the A380 without any computers at the same time. (747, 737 and SST). The 747 was around 300% larger then the 707, the first airliner with high bipass fans, and the first wide body to boot.

And don't forget the 747 made money, the 737 is the best selling plane of all time and well their SST was an abismal waste of time LOL
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting NorCal (Reply 13):
That is rather insulting to Boeing and the 747, which was 2x the size of anything built before it (much bigger size jump than the A380 is). Boeing built their a/c in much less time without the help of computers, I'd say that is a pretty amazing accomplishment. They also delivered on time (the only delay being of a month was caused by Pratt). It is also rather insulting to aircraft like the C-5, the AN-124 and AN-225.



Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 15):


[quote=N328KF,reply=16]

with respect none have had to incorporate, the latest most advanced technologies from IFE to electronic flight systems, into as innovative a structure as the 380 is.

That is not to take away from their respective achievements.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 17):
The A380 has a few problems that are being corrected now and is in good hands.

Earth to SJCRRPAX: are you even slightly aware of what's going on with the A380? That they now intend to deliver only 1 by the end of 2007?  wideeyed 
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
Shenzhen
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 19):
with respect none have had to incorporate, the latest most advanced technologies from IFE to electronic flight systems, into as innovative a structure as the 380 is.

Yes, running 115 VAC and/or 28VDC to a vendors box is a huge accomplishment.

Cheers
 
mush
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 18):
The reason I don't see Boeing going near it isn't pride/or $$, it's Y3. Boeing doesn't need their people exposed to Airbus trade secrets. That is a pandora's box that's not worth going near even for $B.

I didn't think of that...

Quoting Mush (Reply 12):
I would be willing to bet that you're wrong.

Glad you didn't take my bet...by the way, it's off the table now  Wink

Thanks,
Mush
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 21):
running 115 VAC and/or 28VDC to a vendors box is a huge accomplishment.

WOULD BE a huge accomplishment. They haven't succeeded.  Smile
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
osiris30
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Mush (Reply 22):
Glad you didn't take my bet...by the way, it's off the table now

As much as I love winning a bet, I don't take a sucker bet (either way  Wink ).. it's this silly code of ethics I have LOL.

Quoting Mush (Reply 22):
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 18):
The reason I don't see Boeing going near it isn't pride/or $$, it's Y3. Boeing doesn't need their people exposed to Airbus trade secrets. That is a pandora's box that's not worth going near even for $B.

I didn't think of that...

I'm sure most wouldn't have, which is why I brought it up. I'm painfully aware of trade secret/patent issues given I've been in high-tech for years.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
SJCRRPAX
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:38 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 20):
Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 17):
The A380 has a few problems that are being corrected now and is in good hands.

Earth to SJCRRPAX: are you even slightly aware of what's going on with the A380? That they now intend to deliver only 1 by the end of 2007?

I am pretty sure I have seen pictures of four of A380's flying in formation, so I'd say they have solved 99% of the technical issues. So what issue can't they solve? I think they can handle rewiring the airplanes. It's not like they invented a C-5 that has stress issues on the wings and had to be limited in hours flown, or an F-111 that crashed all the time because the low terrain radar did not work correctly, or a Comet that had windows blown out because they were square, or a Osprey that took Boeing how many years to fly without crashing? .... I've seen plenty of software projects fall behind a year or more (Microsoft Vista ... or what's that Apple OS?), I've seen plenty of Microchips be delayed a year or more... OK, they delay a year on an Airframe that will be around 30 years, not such a big deal. I am certain that the A380 will be like every other airbus and the A320 is a perfect example. Everytime I fly in the A320, I always say to myself this is a nice airplane, maybe even nicer than a 737NG , but not enough to make me spend more money for the ticket --- but that's another story. I'm all about cost when it comes to flying.

[Edited 2006-10-03 20:40:04]
 
osiris30
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25):
I'd say they have solved 99% of the technical issues.

Wrong. They aren't final frames and they aren't certified for commercial flight OR serial production. They could have duct tape holding them together at this point and it would be 'ok' for formation flying.

Anyone that's ever worked with prototype *anything* know that prototype->final is often as painful as concept->prototype.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
Ken777
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:48 am

Airbus is probably using consultants right now for suggestions on restructuring the company and on the software side, but I doubt if they will bring in outside help for the engineering side.

Let's face it, Boeing is too busy right now even if Airbus asked. they are going full speed on the 787 program, the 748 programs are demanding as many engineers as they can get and Y1 is going to take every engineer they can get. Add in a few extra engineers (if available) to keep Y3 active (if on a back burner) "just in case" and Boeing is fully tied up.

Airbus has a few problems, but they are their problems to work through. I have no doubts, by the way, that they will get through the 380 issues and get it operational.
 
norcal
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 19):
with respect none have had to incorporate, the latest most advanced technologies from IFE to electronic flight systems, into as innovative a structure as the 380 is.

Well they incorporated the latest and greatest from 1960s....kind of hard to incorporate IFE when pong wasn't even on the horizon, or the PC, and you were considered rich if you had two televisions in your house.  Wink No DVD (not even VHS), no internet, no CDs, no laptops.....I could keep going but I think you've got the idea.

Shame on Boeing for not incorporating yet to be invented technology into their planes!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:51 am

Airbus website:

""Airbus will this year deliver around 430 aircrafts, the highest ever, with a plan to deliver even more next year"

I belive it when I see the 2006 years end report!

A380 EIS October 2007!! C´moooon.....

WTF are those snails doing down there in To Loose?

A pi$$ed off Micke//  

[Edited 2006-10-03 20:52:56]
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
mush
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:55 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 29):
""Airbus will this year deliver around 430 aircrafts, the highest ever, with a plan to deliver even more next year"

So with the A380 in late 2007 will it be 431 aircraft for next year?

Just kidding...  Wink
Sprung from cages out on highway 9
 
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:59 am

@ Mush

You´re soooo right, maybe 430 ½ a/c..

Micke   *about to throw this effing PC out the window*

[Edited 2006-10-03 21:02:52]
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:05 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25):
I am pretty sure I have seen pictures of four of A380's flying in formation, so I'd say they have solved 99% of the technical issues.

So how do you explain the failure to deliver any of these aircraft?

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25):
It's not like they invented a C-5 that has stress issues on the wings and had to be limited in hours flown, or an F-111 that crashed all the time because the low terrain radar did not work correctly, or a Comet that had windows blown out because they were square, or a Osprey that took Boeing how many years to fly without crashing?

None of these are relevant. The first wheel probably wasn't quite round; so what?

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25):
I've seen plenty of software projects fall behind a year or more

This isn't a software project, and it isn't a software problem.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25):
OK, they delay a year on an Airframe that will be around 30 years, not such a big deal.

I have 30 years to pay my mortgage, and my banker isn't willing to let me go a year without paying. As for the A380, it's not a year late, its TWO YEARS late, and even then only one is going to be delivered before 2008. Is that a big deal yet?
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
hb88
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 24):
Quoting Mush (Reply 22):
Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 18):
"The reason I don't see Boeing going near it isn't pride/or $$, it's Y3. Boeing doesn't need their people exposed to Airbus trade secrets. That is a pandora's box that's not worth going near even for $B."

I didn't think of that...

I'm sure most wouldn't have, which is why I brought it up. I'm painfully aware of trade secret/patent issues given I've been in high-tech for years.

Quite apart from the issues you point out above - which are absolutely correct - IMO the delays in properly engaging a completely new partner into the business would probably negate any advantage in pouring more engineering resources into the organisation.

Also, from where I sit, the issues are less engineering per se than project management and business operations.
 
osiris30
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 33):
Quite apart from the issues you point out above - which are absolutely correct - IMO the delays in properly engaging a completely new partner into the business would probably negate any advantage in pouring more engineering resources into the organisation.

Also, from where I sit, the issues are less engineering per se than project management and business operations.

I pointed that out as well  Wink Usually when I've been behind schedule on project the best way to speed it up is to cut out outside parties, not add more.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
jacobin777
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 32):
I have 30 years to pay my mortgage, and my banker isn't willing to let me go a year without paying. As for the A380, it's not a year late, its TWO YEARS late, and even then only one is going to be delivered before 2008. Is that a big deal yet?

That actually makes it THREE years late before the carries will be getting the planes
"Up the Irons!"
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Shenzhen (Reply 21):
Yes, running 115 VAC and/or 28VDC to a vendors box is a huge accomplishment.

Don't know what you are talking about. Illuminate, share your knowledge.

Quoting NorCal (Reply 28):
Shame on Boeing for not incorporating yet to be invented technology into their planes!

I agree, yet some people on this site would never hear a bad word said about B
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 36):
I agree, yet some people on this site would never hear a bad word said about B

I heard Orville dropped his iPod at Kitty Hawk.  Yeah sure

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 29):
Airbus website:

""Airbus will this year deliver around 430 aircrafts, the highest ever, with a plan to deliver even more next year"

I belive it when I see the 2006 years end report!

A380 EIS October 2007!! C´moooon.....

WTF are those snails doing down there in To Loose?

A pi$$ed off Micke//

Jeez relax...they do make other planes than A380 and have some sort of backlog to fill, just like Boeing.

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 31):
@ Mush

You´re soooo right, maybe 430 ½ a/c..

Micke *about to throw this effing PC out the window*

The ultimate Aerospace Engineer's revenge...just pack up the A380 subassemblies into crates, ship them to the customers' hubs with the attached note:

"You think it's so f*&^ing easy, build your own damn plane!"

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 32):
This isn't a software project, and it isn't a software problem.

Having worked over the summer for a company manufacturing JSF bulkheads designed on CATIA V4, then transitioned to V5, I can assure you, software can be a problem anytime, anywhere when it comes to a complex engineering project.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
flysherwood
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

Now if you were to ask if they should ask for more government money, then I think you have a topic worthy of discussion

Yes there is!!! BOEING.
 Smile
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Glom (Reply 1):
The A380 has issues?

Under which rock have you been hiding?
One Nation Under God
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Flysherwood (Reply 38):
Yes there is!!! BOEING.
 

wrong
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):

You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

Really? 747 wasn't a bigger endeavor, or the 787 - the first primarily composite airliner and largest composite aircraft in the history of aviation? The first to use bleedless engines. No, clearly the A380 is the most ambitious airlplane ever, because it has lots and lots of seats.

A380 is ambitious, it's a big project - but by no means the biggest project. A380 is a very impressive aircraft, but it's not a game changer.

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 18):
Overall I give outside help a 30/70 chance of help vs. hinder. I don't think Airbus's problems are solely technical, so outside help would be of limited usefullness.

Exactly. I think what they need is to get outside help to run their company.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 25):
I am pretty sure I have seen pictures of four of A380's flying in formation, so I'd say they have solved 99% of the technical issues. So what issue can't they solve?

Apparently the technical issue that has delayed this aircraft now by years.... I think that's the problem they can't solve. Flying formation is great - but until the A380 is exactly the aircraft they promised, it means nothing.

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 39):
Quoting Glom (Reply 1):
The A380 has issues?

Under which rock have you been hiding?

I dunno, I think that was the official position out of toulouse for a long time...
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YULWinterSkies
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting Mush (Reply 12):
Personally, I don't think Airbus will ask. How would it look if the aviation pride project of Europe needed help from the Americans.

The reason why I say aviation pride is not to start a fight, but because Airbus had PMs from some European Countries present and making speeches at the roll out of the A380. It's not often, frankly it's almost never, that you see a sitting president of the United States present, with a speaking roll, at any COMMERCIAL program. If I recall correctly, Bill Clinton was not present for the B777 roll out, please correct me if I'm wrong.

And to me, it looks like "the aviation pride project of Europe" is getting some "help from the Americans": 1. where is Engine Alliance from? That's a joint venture created especially for the A380, not a small tidbit. 2. how about Airbus at Wichita? And, if you ask me, I see nothing wrong about that. Boeing is getting major help in Russia, Japan and Europe to develop its 787, and no one complains about that, however the 787 is still considered as "American".

So if in the USA (Boeing or others) there is a possibility to help Airbus to fix their problems, Airbus will definitely look towards the USA.

But by looking at what are the problems Airbus is really having (see link to thread below, and read answer 14 by Astuteman), I have no clue about Boeing's skills in that domain. 16 Months Of "Wiring" Problems? Don't Think So (by Osiris30 Oct 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)

About the presence of Presidents at first rollout, this is related to a more or less established tradition in Europe that presidents are expected at major industrial launches in their country, while the Americans behave differently about this. However there are signs of national prides that the American leaders observe and the Europeans don't: GWB wears a US flag on his jacket whereas Chirac does not wear a French and European flags on his. Countries in different continents have different behaviors, accept it.
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GQfluffy
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 4):
as if Boaing would offer help

Which aircraft company did Boeing turn to for help when they were having issues keeping up with demand of the 777 and the 737 NG in the mid 90's?

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 40):

IIRC, Boeing designed a passenger aircraft about 35 years ago that was 150-200 seats bigger then anything else designed at that time AND built the world's largest building within...what was it...3 years?
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:20 am

Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 43):
Which aircraft company did Boeing turn to for help when they were having issues keeping up with demand of the 777 and the 737 NG in the mid 90's?

Toyota has developed piston aircraft engines...I guess technically that makes them an aircraft company. That's who they turned to.
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ebbuk
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 41):
Really? 747 wasn't a bigger endeavor, or the 787 - the first primarily composite airliner and largest composite aircraft in the history of aviation? The first to use bleedless engines. No, clearly the A380 is the most ambitious airlplane ever, because it has lots and lots of seats.

A380 is ambitious, it's a big project - but by no means the biggest project. A380 is a very impressive aircraft, but it's not a game changer.



Quoting GQfluffy (Reply 43):
IIRC, Boeing designed a passenger aircraft about 35 years ago that was 150-200 seats bigger then anything else designed at that time AND built the world's largest building within...what was it...3 years?

What is it with you guys? Why is it so hard for you to accept that the 380 is a BIGGER civil aviation project than anything the Americans or anyone else for that matter, have attempted?
 
GQfluffy
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 45):
Why is it so hard for you to accept that the 380 is a BIGGER civil aviation project than anything the Americans or anyone else for that matter, have attempted?

But how much BIGGER then the 747? Bigger then going from the largest 707 or DC-8?
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katekebo
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):
You're losing your mind. There isn't another company in the world that has undertaken a project of this size.

The biggest engineering project in the history (cost and resource-wise) has been the project Apollo. At it's peak, it had 200,000 engineers working simultaneously, in NASA, Lockheed Martin, McDonnell, Boeing and hundreds of contractors and subcontractors. This was before microcomputers, CAD, scheduling software, etc. It took 8 years from the speach of JFK in which he officially launched the program to the first step of Neil Armstrong on Moon surface. A380 project is piece-of-cake compared with the massive coordination and technological task of managing project Apollo.

One of the biggest contributions of project Apollo has been development of modern project management technology, as well as concurrent engineering. The know-how developed during project Apollo, as well as experience gained by the thousands of project managers ivolved has serve American industry well.
 
osiris30
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 45):
What is it with you guys? Why is it so hard for you to accept that the 380 is a BIGGER civil aviation project than anything the Americans or anyone else for that matter, have attempted?

No.. the plane is bigger not the project. You are confusing the effort required with the size of the product. By your logic the effort to develop a chair is immensly larger than a microchip.

That's the point everyone is making. Airbus had fewer unknowns, more advanced tools that Boeing did when they designed the 747. From a PROJECT perspective the 747 was 'harder' by a long shot.
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus A380, Maybe It's Time To Ask For Help.

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 48):
No.. the plane is bigger not the project. You are confusing the effort required with the size of the product. By your logic the effort to develop a chair is immensly larger than a microchip.

I'm glad you made that comparison -- I bet Intel has more engineering talent working on Itanium than Airbus has had on the A380. The capital costs of that project make the A380 look teeny. And sure, Airbus has third-party suppliers, but there are people at other companies (HP, IBM, SGI, etc.) who also work on Itanium-based systems. And Itanium has a pretty rotten outlook, probably worse than the A380 from an ROI standpoint.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt