KELPkid
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What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:59 am

Hi folks,

Just wondering if anyone has the inside scoop on why AA dumped their F100 fleet ~3 years ago. I was suprised that they were able to hang on to their F100's as long as they were after Fokker ceased to exist as a manufacturer.

I miss boarding from jetways that are kneeled down as low as they will go and looking out from the oval-shaped window flying from ELP to DFW.

I also find it interesting that AA flew the jet using mainline crews. Creates an interesting speculation point: if AA were to bring E190's into the fleet, would mainline crews be flying it?

Thanks!

Brent
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ExRUAgentatDAL
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:54 am

From what I have heard....they were MX hogs and were costly to upkeep.

Chris
"The views expressed are mine alone and do not reflect the views of AirTran Airways"
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:08 am

The big Fokker!  Smile I think some are in Europe and more still out in the bone yard not too far away from you.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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American 767
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:09 am

The last F100 aircraft was retired just two years ago, the final flight arrived in ORD. The reason those were retired was not only because the manufacturer had gone out of business, spare parts can still be available from another company (I don't know what it is but there are spare parts surely), the other reason was American still being at the time not profitable to reduce the number of fleet types as much as it was possible to do so. From 2001 to 2005, American reduced the number of fleet types from, I don't know how many I think 14, to as little as 6. Gone also are the B727's, ex-TWA B717's and the older DC-9's, ex-Reno MD-87 and MD-90's, DC-10 and MD-11 aircraft.
I think that if an aircraft has at least 100 seats, it is considered as a mainline aircraft. Not sure if the E190 would be considered as a mainline aircraft but even if American were to order it and make it part of the Eagle fleet, American would use it partially on former F100 routes and the remaining former F100 routes would be flown with MD-80 equipment, all that of course depends of the economy and the yields. For example, if a route flown with MD-80 aircraft isn't too profitable, it will be taken over by the regional subsidiary American Eagle. I think PIT and ALB are airports that no longer see AA mainline equipment, and there must be other airports in AA's whole system that no longer see AA mainline jets.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 2):
I think some are in Europe and more still out in the bone yard not too far away from you.

Ah, so they've started a boneyard up here in the Pacific NW these days, eh?  scratchchin 

I moved away from the Southwest about 5 years ago...  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
bohica
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
if AA were to bring E190's into the fleet, would mainline crews be flying it?

An AA pilot I know told me that this issue is being negotiated between AA and their pilot's union.
 
aa61hvy
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:17 am

I took the F100 frequently back when from DFW-DAY.... It didn't care for it much, a bit tight, a bit slow. I was happy when the MD82 was put on the route.
Go big or go home
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:17 am

Helvetic in switzerland has about 5 I believe.
They were shipped through Norwich (I think) and painted into their lurid CS
Thanks
Alex
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 4):
Ah, so they've started a boneyard up here in the Pacific NW these days, eh?

Yeah you haven't heard of it! How dumb do I feel now, just read your ELP-DFW stuff and off I went! Thanks
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
mjlhou
Posts: 149
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:18 am

well...if my memory serves me correctly...the F100 had F8 and Y89. I know this ac became an MX nightmare as

Quoting ExRUAgentatDAL (Reply 1):
ExRUAgentatDAL

has said, and therefore, they were retired for fleet simplicity. I've worked with this A/C for AA in the past and it honestly was always breaking down. I wish they would find another solution for and retire the A300 as well, as this A/C has also plagued the airline with high MX costs.

Cheers
Don't worry about things you can't change or control
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
Yeah you haven't heard of it! How dumb do I feel now, just read your ELP-DFW stuff and off I went! Thanks

It's OK. Maybe you and I will talk on the airwaves one of these days if I ever fly cross-country to Sun 'n fun down in Orlando...(one of my dreams!)  Wink I'll have to start building my dream RV-8 first LOL
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):
I'll have to start building my dream RV-8 first LOL

I hear you can get a Fokker 100 cheap these days!  Smile
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
scaledesigns
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:24 am

I heard the F100s needed to have several upgrades to the landing
gear?Since the new parts had to be manufactured by an outside source
other than Fokker it proved to costly for most operators.Does anybody know
anything more?
F1 Tommy
 
Lumberton
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:27 am

Didn't Avianca take at least 15?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
COERJ145
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:30 am

wern't a few of those little fokkers sent off to Brasil for an airline(forget the name) there?
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 11):
I hear you can get a Fokker 100 cheap these days!

I'll bet the type rating would cost more than the airframe  Wink
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vfw614
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:52 am

Thanks to US Airways and American retiring the Fokker 100s, they have enjoyed some sort of renaissance over here in Europe. They nowadays fly with airlines such as dba, Air Berlin, HLX, Helvetic, Spanair, Girjet, Austrian Arrows etc. and some of those have sizeable fleets. Most ex US/AA aircraft bought dirt cheap, refurbished and put into good use.
 
a300aa
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 14):
wern't a few of those little fokkers sent off to Brasil for an airline(forget the name) there

Ocean Air And Avianca,.

But the question is How are they doing with these planes?
 
cgagn
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:00 am

I know Jetsgo bought several AA F100s before they went bankrupt. I don't know where they ended up after the airline went bankrupt.


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FoxBravo
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:09 am

As others have noted, a large number went to the Synergy Group in Latin America (owner of Avianca, OceanAir, Wayra Peru, etc.).
Common sense is not so common. -Voltaire
 
gigneil
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:11 am

Lets not skip the AD on the Tays. What like $2m per plane (per engine?)

N
 
commavia
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:14 am

AA's F100 fleet (74-strong at time of retirement) was dispersed all over the world. A substantial number were sold to now-defunct Canadian LCC JetsGo, and another large chunk were sent to South America with Synergy Group (Avianca, Ocean Air, etc.). A few others ended up in Europe with Helvetic Airways, etc.

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
Just wondering if anyone has the inside scoop on why AA dumped their F100 fleet ~3 years ago. I was suprised that they were able to hang on to their F100's as long as they were after Fokker ceased to exist as a manufacturer.

The planes had major maintenance issues and were very expensive to maintain so intensively. In addition, because the OEM (Fokker) went belly-up in the late 90s, AA was forced to manufacturing many of the planes parts in order to keep it flying, which was exceedingly costly.

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
I also find it interesting that AA flew the jet using mainline crews.

The planes, from the beginning, were conceived as mainline planes. While they were small for mainline, they were way, way too big for Eagle.

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
Creates an interesting speculation point: if AA were to bring E190's into the fleet, would mainline crews be flying it?

AA mainline pilots would get the flying on anything over 70 seats as long as it is "cost neutral" for the company to give them the flying over Eagle pilots.
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
AA mainline pilots would get the flying on anything over 70 seats as long as it is "cost neutral" for the company to give them the flying over Eagle pilots.

Wonder how an E190 would look in bare metal...  cloudnine 
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vv701
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:39 am

The thread title is somewhat at odds with KELPkid's post. I have no idea why AA chose to get rid of their f-100 fleet. However I can help provide some of the answer to the question in the title:

N1400H became C-FKZC of Jetgo and then YR-FKA of Carpatair
N1401G became C-GKZB of Jetgo and was then bought by RSM Richter and was stored at YQB
N1402K, N1403M, N1404D and N1405J were stored at Mojave CA
N1406A is now OE-LVJ of Tyrolean Airways operated in Austrian Arrows colours
N1407D became C-GKZH of Jetgo
N1408B and N1409B became PH-ZFN and PH-ZFO of Fokker Services BV
N1410E became C-GKZL of Jetsgo and then OE-IID of International Jet Management
N1411G went to Jetsgo as C-GKZK and was then stored at Dinard, France
N1412A went to Oceanair as PR-OAD
N1413A and N1414D were leased by Wayra and registered OB-1821-P and OB-1816-P
N1415K was stored at Mojave CA
N1416A became C-GKZD and F-WQVS of Jetsgo and was then went to Modovian Airlines as ER-FZA
N1417D became C-GKZJ of Jetsgo and then went to Fokker Services BV as PH-ZFP
N1418A became C-GKZV of Jetsgo, PH-ZFQ of Fokker Services BV and OE-LVK of Tyrolean
N1419D was damaged beyond repair in a landing accident at DFW in 2001
N1420D became C-GKZA of Jetsgo and then OE-IIB of International Jet Management
N1421K became PH-ZFR of Fokker Services BV and then OE-LVL of Tyrolean Airways
N1422J went to Fokker Services BV
N1423A became C-GKZP of Jetsgo and is now OE-IIC with International Jet Management
N1424M went to Trade Air as 9A-BTD
N1425A became C-GKZM of Jetsgo and was then went to Werner Air Services
N1426A went to PF One Ltd
N1427A and N1428d went to Oceanair as PR-OAG and PR-OAH
N1429G went to Wayra as OB-1831-P
N1430D went to Oceanair as PR-OAF
N1431B went to Trade Air as 9A-BTE
N1432A and N1433B went to Oceanair as PR-OAI and PR-OAJ
N1434A went to PF One Ltd
N1425D and N1426a went to Oceanair as PR-OAK and PR-OAE
N1437B went to by PF One Ltd
N1438H became C-GKZG of Jetsgo and then JU-8428 of Aero Mogolia
N1439A became C-GKZX of Jetsgo and was stored Quebec
N1440A and N1441A went to Oceanair as PR-OALK and PR-OAM
N1442E became C-GKZW of Jetsgo and was stored Quebec
N1443A became PH-ZFF of Fokker Services BV and is now operated by Tyrolean Airways as OE-LVC
N1444N and N1445B were stored at Mojave CA
N1446A went to PF One Ltd
N1447L became PH-ZFL of Fokker Services BV and is now operated by Tyrolean as OE-LVH
N1448A became HK-4419X with Avianca
N1449D went to PF One Ltd
N1450A became HB-JVE of Helvetic
N1451N became HB-JVA of Helvetic and then OM-AAC of Slovak Airlines
N1452B went to PF One Ltd
N1453D went to Avianca
N1454D became HB-JVF of Helvetic
N1455K went to Fokker Aircraft N1455K Trust and was stored in the Netherlands
N1456D became PH-ZFL of Fokker Services BV and is now operated by Tyrolean as OE-LVI
N1457B is now owned by PF One Ltd
N1458H became HB-JVG of Helvetic
N1459A went to Fokker Aircraft N1459A Trust and was stored in the Netherlands
N1460A is stored at Mojave CA
N1461C is owned by PF One Ltd
N1462C became HK-4420X of Avianca
N1463A became PH-ZFI of Fokker Services BV and is now operated by Tyrolean as OE-LVF
N1464A became PH-ZFB of Fokker Services BV and is now operated by Tyrolean as OE-LVA
N1465K became HB-JVB of Helvetic and then EC-JRV of GirJet
N1466A became HB-JVD of Helvetic and then EC-JOM of Gestion Area Finance for lease to Spanair
N1467A became PH-ZFH of Fokker Services BV and then OE-LVE of Tyrolean
N1468A became HB-JVC of Helvetic
N1469D became PH-ZFE of Fokker Services BV and then OE-LVB of Tyrolean
N1470K went to Avianca
N1471G was stored Mojave CA
N1472B went to Avianca
N1473K went to Fokker Services BV as PH-ZFG and then Tyrolean as OF-LVD
N1474D went to Fokker Services BV as PH-ZFJ, then to Tyrolean as OE-LVG and was leased by Slovak Airlines before being returned to Tyrolean

(I believe all the above aircraft registered to Tyrolean Airways are operated in Austrian Arrows livery.)
 
scaledesigns
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:25 am

Its really simple why AA got rid of the F100s.As already pointed out ,they
were getting very expensive to maintain.They needed major landing gear and
engine mods..Since Fokker gave up after Benz took them over parts are
no longer available from the manufacturer.Plus AA wanted to simplify the fleet .I dont think many F100s will still be flying in 10 years.
F1 Tommy
 
willyj
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
I think PIT and ALB are airports that no longer see AA mainline equipment, and there must be other airports in AA's whole system that no longer see AA mainline jets.

HPN (westchester county) used to see 4/5 F100s a day. I believe the last F100 flight was from HPN to ORD. After they were retired a few 738s with a mix of Eagle flights did the ORD HPN route. Unfortunately now it's just A Eagle. The 738s stopped coming when they moved them out of ORD. Can M80s not serve HPN? Perhaps they are too long for the ramps?? They should be able to land and take off without a problem - shouldn't they??
 
commavia
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Willyj (Reply 25):
Can M80s not serve HPN? Perhaps they are too long for the ramps?? They should be able to land and take off without a problem - shouldn't they??

If I remember correctly, AA badly wanted to put MD80s into HPN from ORD, but the local NIMBYs there balked because it would be too loud. Idiots.
 
777jaah
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 13):
Didn't Avianca take at least 15?



Quoting COERJ145 (Reply 14):
wern't a few of those little fokkers sent off to Brasil for an airline(forget the name) there?


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AV has 10, according to their website. I actually took one of them 2 weeks ago CTG-BOG, and it was a nice ride, specially climbing, they felt more powerful than expected, and were good enough for the job, its only 1.15 hr trip. And what I've heard, AV is pretty happy with those fokkers (sorry..........), as replacements for the F50, which have let them upgrade some routes and start very short ones that doesn't require jets. Besides, short hops are a real cash pot for AV, so they're getting as much abuse as they can handle.

Cheers


JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
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zippyjet
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:57 am

Believe it or not, I remember seeing plenty of the sort of ugly (in my opinion)
F100's at ATL! I heard they were noisy and uncomfortable and not a big hit with passengers. Just my 2 cents on this thread.

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Check out the photographer's coments: (cabin pic of this FUGLY duckling;I'm not a fan of oval shapes.)

N1460A (cn 11480) Oddly enough this is the first cabin pic of an AA F-100 (in standard 2 class config). My first time to fly on one...lets just say I don't have the urge to fly on another one,  Wink
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akizidy214
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:07 pm

Doesn't TAM have a few of the AA birds?
DCA
 
akizidy214
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 4:38 pm

I talked to a mechanic recently and he said the F100 was by far the most difficult plane to work on major pac and rudder problems to name a few.

But AA dropped the F100's due to extremely high MTX cost compared to the 737 and S80. Also I think this was about the time AA stared the "rolling hub" to increase fleet productivity and simplification this allowed AA to more efficiently use the S80's and the eagle EMB'S. While allowing them to cut cost drastically by retiring the F100.
DCA
 
ha763
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:39 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 20):
Lets not skip the AD on the Tays. What like $2m per plane (per engine?)

The AD was most likely the last straw. IIRC, it was $1mil per engine. The cost of complying with the AD plus the cost of having to provide their own support for the aircraft during a time when they were losing a lot of money probably sealed the F100s fate at AA. Too bad they couldn't work out better lease terms on the 717s.
 
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BreninTW
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:16 pm

Quoting Zippyjet (Reply 28):
I heard they were noisy and uncomfortable and not a big hit with passengers

Mandarin Airlines (AE) has a fleet of 6 -- must be the most uncomfortable jet I've been in, if I get a window seat, I end up sitting with my head bent at an angle (I'm 6'2"). The seats seem to be exceptionally narrow as well -- not enjoyable. I'm looking forward to the day when they get shot of them (should start happening next year) and replace them with Embraers.

They do, however, go like the clappers ...
 
AMSSFO
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:17 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 3):
spare parts can still be available from another company (I don't know what it is but there are spare parts surely)



Quoting Commavia (Reply 21):
AA was forced to manufacturing many of the planes parts in order to keep it flying, which was exceedingly costly.



Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 24):
Since Fokker gave up after Benz took them over parts are
no longer available from the manufacturer.

AA was not forced to get their parts from other sources. It was their own decision not go obtain parts from Fokker Services. This company was part of Fokker and was kept alive because Stork bought it. It takes care of the maintenance of all Fokkers (if the airline closes a deal).

Quoting Cgagn (Reply 18):
know Jetsgo bought several AA F100s before they went bankrupt. I don't know where they ended up after the airline went bankrupt.



Quoting Akizidy214 (Reply 29):
Doesn't TAM have a few of the AA birds?

no, see the list of:

Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
However I can help provide some of the answer to the question in the title:

some additions:
N1401G became C-GKZB of Jetgo and was then bought by RSM Richter and was stored at YQB, now JU-8452 Aero Mongolia
N1402K, N1403M, N1404D and N1405J were stored at Mojave CA; all frd to ROW; for Click Mexicana but repo NTU

N1407D became C-GKZH of Jetgo
N1425A became C-GKZM of Jetsgo and was then went to Werner Air Services
N1439A became C-GKZX of Jetsgo and was stored Quebec; s06.06 many parts missing
N1442E became C-GKZW of Jetsgo and was stored Quebec;
All 4 repo wfu for spares

N1408B and N1409B became PH-ZFN and PH-ZFO of Fokker Services BV
N1417D became C-GKZJ of Jetsgo and then went to Fokker Services BV as PH-ZFP;
All 3 stored at WOE and will go to Austrian Arrows

N1411G went to Jetsgo as C-GKZK and was then stored at Dinard, France; now YR-FKB Carpatair

N1415K was stored at Mojave CA
N1419D was damaged beyond repair in a landing accident at DFW in 2001
N1460A is stored at Mojave CA
N1471G was stored Mojave CA;
All 4 are likely scrapped

N1444N and N1445B were stored at Mojave CA; derelict

N1422J went to Fokker Services BV
N1426A went to PF One Ltd
N1434A went to PF One Ltd
N1437B went to by PF One Ltd;
All 4 for Wayra; now at TUL

N1446A went to PF One Ltd; now HK-4445-X Avianca Colombia/SAM
N1449D went to PF One Ltd; now HK-4444X Avianca Colombia/SAM
N1452B went to PF One Ltd; now HK-4451X Avianca Colombia/SAM
N1453D went to Avianca; HK-4430-X
N1457B is now owned by PF One Ltd; now HK-4437-X Avianca Colombia/SAM
N1470K went to Avianca; as HK-4431X
N1472B went to Avianca; as HK-4438X

N1455K went to Fokker Aircraft N1455K Trust and was stored in the Netherlands; never went to The Netherlands; now at TUL for AV
N1459A went to Fokker Aircraft N1459A Trust and was stored in the Netherlands; never went to The Netherlands, now HK-4443-X Avianca Colombia/SAM
N1461C is owned by PF One Ltd; at TUL for AV
 
commavia
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:23 pm

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 33):
AA was not forced to get their parts from other sources. It was their own decision not go obtain parts from Fokker Services. This company was part of Fokker and was kept alive because Stork bought it. It takes care of the maintenance of all Fokkers (if the airline closes a deal).

Well, apparently AA didn't get that memo, since the company clearly stated at the time of the fleet's retirement that they were being forced to manufacture some parts for the aircraft because now OEM was available to source spares from. While I don't have an article to link to, as this was over two years ago, that was AA's words, not mine.
 
stylo777
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:48 pm

I miss the birds of Air Berlin and dba in this list. Are they former AA jets as well? I know that Germania operated them before going bankrupt. I have been once in a Germania jet with leather seats and a very spacious legroom compared to some Boeing, Airbus or MD jets...
 
AMSSFO
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting Stylo777 (Reply 35):
I miss the birds of Air Berlin and dba in this list. Are they former AA jets as well? I know that Germania operated them before going bankrupt. I have been once in a Germania jet with leather seats and a very spacious legroom compared to some Boeing, Airbus or MD jets...

Those are former US aircraft.
Germania did not go bankrupt; they still operate the F100s for DBA, Air Berlin and Hapag-Lloyd Express
And passenger comfort indeed depends for a large part on the airline's choice of configuration
 
scaledesigns
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:57 am

I had heard that the company that made parts for the Fokker 100s was requiring more money from the aircraft operators.In order for AA to get the parts they would have to invest in the that manufacturing company.AA
decided it was to costly as the Aircraft needed alot of mods.So it was not
as simple as AA just not wanting to pay for new parts from that source.
F1 Tommy
 
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AA777223
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:30 am

How long were they in the fleet? It doesn't seem like they lasted very long at all. The first pic in the database is from 2002, and there is nothing before 1999, whihc makes me wonder. Did they just have them for about 5 years? That seems like an awfully quick turn around. How soon did Fokker go defunct after AA's final order? Were they the last customer? I flew on one once, not a fan!
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
N1120A
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
I was suprised that they were able to hang on to their F100's as long as they were after Fokker ceased to exist as a manufacturer.

Fokker Services survived to provide MX support

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
I also find it interesting that AA flew the jet using mainline crews.

Nothing interesting about it. The aircraft are about the same size as a DC9-30.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
AA badly wanted to put MD80s into HPN from ORD, but the local NIMBYs there balked because it would be too loud.

Funny thing about that, I don't find MD80s to be loud, just deep

Quoting Commavia (Reply 34):
Well, apparently AA didn't get that memo, since the company clearly stated at the time of the fleet's retirement that they were being forced to manufacture some parts for the aircraft because now OEM was available to source spares from. While I don't have an article to link to, as this was over two years ago, that was AA's words, not mine.

They did, because a support company definately exists and no one has resorted to gutting F100s for parts.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
scaledesigns
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:19 am

The problem was
from what I understand,the aircraft needed updates.Not just OEM part replacements.The engines and landing
gear needed mods.AA would have had to invest in the design and manufacture of the new parts.They decided it was cheaper to retire them.
Does anyone know if any of the still flying F100s have had the landing
gear mods?Maybe someone from AA MTX can make a comment.
F1 Tommy
 
aviopic
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:58 am

Reading this topic I get the feeling that some people just returned from their holiday to Mars. Big grin

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 40):
the aircraft needed updates.

Every A/C needs updates, if you check with the FAA you will quite a few AD note's for the E170/190 already as well.
That's how it goes.

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 40):
They decided it was cheaper to retire them.

It was to expensive to pay the mainline pilots is a more accurate description.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
They did, because a support company definately exists and no one has resorted to gutting F100s for parts.

 checkmark 
I am sitting right here at work ready for to serve, just ask.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 38):
Did they just have them for about 5 years?

The oldest probably around 15 years or so.

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 37):
I had heard that the company that made parts for the Fokker 100s was requiring more money from the aircraft operators.

As far as I know we never asked anybody for extra money just a normal service contract.
Some operators thought they knew better which is not our problem of course.

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 37):
AA
decided it was to costly as the Aircraft needed alot of mods

They did not need a lot of mods and in any case it would have been cheaper then bying new.
If it was true they would not have been sold away like hot cakes.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 34):
since the company clearly stated at the time of the fleet's retirement that they were being forced to manufacture some parts for the aircraft because now OEM was available to source spares from.

As mentioned, their own choice.
And I can ensure you the OEM is more alive then ever, never have had a problem with my pay check in the last 26 years.
In fact we even produce parts for several A/C's like Boeing, Airbus, Gulfstream to name a few. Of course not to mention the JSF F-35.
Also the engineering, customer support, component + A/C maintenance and spares departments never went through the bankrupcty, only aircraft manufacturing did.

The disposal of the F100 from both US operators was the best that happened to us which is why I said "we are doing better then ever".
All but a few frames have been sold for around 1.5 mil $ brought up to standard and serviced for another 1.5 mil $.
The bulk done by Fokker Services and all but a few with a services contract.
The new users are probably laughing in their fist as they have a fully serviced A/C for the next 15 to 20 years with fixed costs for about 3 mil $ and nobody with a new up to 20 Mil $ A/C is able to compete.

All in all...... we are not unhappy either  Wink
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
vv701
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:57 am

Quoting AMSSFO (Reply 33):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 23):
However I can help provide some of the answer to the question in the title:

some additions:

Thanks for the updates and corrections.

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 38):
How long were they in the fleet?

N1400H was delivered to AA on 11 July 91 and withdrawn ferom use in January 04. So the oldest was in service for 12.5 years.
 
aviopic
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:02 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 42):
So the oldest was in service for 12.5 years.

So my estimate of 15 years was pretty accurate  Smile

Quoting VV701 (Reply 42):
N1400H was delivered to AA on 11 July 91

Now operated by Carpatair as YR-FKB
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
scaledesigns
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:21 am

Aviopic,

Since we have your attention,what major mods are required for an F100
nearing 15 years of service?
F1 Tommy
 
aviopic
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:54 pm

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 44):
Since we have your attention,what major mods are required for an F100
nearing 15 years of service

All the standard stuff all A/C's had to suffer Big grin
I am sure the AD notes can be found on the FAA website but a few concerning my own work.
FM Immunity, Channel Spacing, Tcas, Enhanced GPWS and of course the reinforced cockpit door with camera.
I am sure there are a few more which I can't think of at the moment, also not all are mandatory for all countries(think channel spacing applies only to the EU).

Then as development never stopped we have hundreds of improvements including Electronic Flight Bag and stuff, it's up to the operator whether to install them or not.

The most updates are the result of changing regulations but also as a result of incidents also in most cases we are talking about software mods like different indications and so on.

Outside my own scope.
There could be problem in some rare situations with the fan of the RR engines which has to be corrected.(for me it is only a different indication(N1) on MFDS, software thus)
Don't know what RR does on the engine.

If I remember correctly only early frames had mods on the gears, Fokker changed from Dowty to Menasco pretty quickly.

I am sure there is more though.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
boeing767mech
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:30 pm

At least 5 of those F-100's stored in MHV where broken up. Last time I was in Mojave I saw them up in railroad ties and striped.

David
Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
 
scaledesigns
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:46 am

Thanks Aviopic,

That was very interesting.

Well if Fokker had not gone under they might have sold 150 F100s to AA.
To bad for once very large independent Dutch airline industry.
Airbus doesnt really count,does it?
F1 Tommy
 
aviopic
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RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 47):
That was very interesting

You're welcome.

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 47):
Well if Fokker had not gone under they might have sold 150 F100s to AA

I am gonna tell you something else very interesting Big grin
At the time 40 were sold to US-Airways can't remember with how many options though, the AA order was for 75 firm with another 75 optional.
At the time Fokker was very happy they didn't take the options because if they had done so Fokker would have been broke straight away.
The truth is that Fokker never earned a dime on both US-Airways as well as AA, in fact all frames were sold with a considerable loss just to get the order in and the production line fired up.

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 47):
To bad for once very large independent Dutch airline industry.

At the time it was the oldest aircraft industry alive with the very first Fokker build in 1911 named Spin(Spider) and it looked like this:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders


So it was an A/C manufacturer with an enormous history but not so much independed.
In the early days you could do almost everything yourself but those days are long gone even for Boeing and Airbus.
Of the latest F70/100 there was maybe 20%(of the total value) Fokker content all the rest came from somewhere else like the 80% of the avionics(Rockwell Collins, Honeywell(Grimes), Sundstrand etc.) and gears(Menasco) from the US, engines(RR Tay) from the UK and so on.

By now the company isn't small either and growing almost on a daily basis.
A few things currently in process by Stork who bought the old and healthy Fokker parts.

- Boeing P-8A multi mission maritime aircraft wiring.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200511/1022053
- Engine parts for the F-35 joint strike fighter.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200511/1021766
- Wiring for the JSF as well.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200507/1001148
- Electrical equipment for the 737
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200510/1014534
- New digital flightdeck Dutch Airforce KDC-10
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200506/998134
- Northrop Grumman in flight opening doors.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200505/995843
- Rocket engine ignition systems.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200505/995450
- Boeing 747 large cargo freighter.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200504/989727
- Wiring for Airbus 400m
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200504/989727
- Dassault business jet.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200502/980732

The list goes on and on.
- Airbus A380: Glare is a Fokker product and wiring.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200605/1052537
- F16(build by Fokker anyway) updates for Dutch Airforce
- Gulfstream.
- NH90 helicopter
and of course the space program never stopped either.
- Ariane 5 and the solar panels for the space station for example.
etc.. etc.. etc.

Growing due to several take overs everywhere including the US.
- Airinc in Alabama.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200607/1063522
- Engineering in Romania.
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200511/1021882
or alliances
- Beijing
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200509/1012874
- Airbus
http://www.stork.com/page.html?ch=DEF&id=4875&pr=200504/987920
etc...etc.
So all in all we are not exactly out of work which is why I have to write this at 01:30 am  Big grin

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 47):
Airbus doesnt really count,does it?

For me no not really.
Doesn't mean they produce bad stuff and I wish them the very best but I just don't care.
The difference is that they don't have a history like Fokker, Lockheed, Douglas and Boeing(probably a little bit less).
As an aviation man inside out(if I am allowed to call myself) I miss the old Douglas and Lockheed but AB ?
They might as well go up in smoke who will miss them ? I don't.
I can hear the flaming already.  boxedin 

Let's end with a funny note:
Meet the latest build Fokker just finished 2 months ago.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders



Now don't go to Mars again, I am not gonna write the whole damn thing again in 4 years time. Big grin

Take care,
Willem
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
scaledesigns
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:12 am

RE: What Happened To AA's F100's?

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:12 am

Now thats a very nice toy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Good job Willem,and thanks for the great reply.Now I know why I joined
a.net.
F1 Tommy