zschocheimages
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:21 am

Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:47 am

I was thinking today about the GOL crash last week and how the airline will be affected. Some things that I came up with:

- New scheduling conflicts. With the new plane came increased frequencies on certain routs. Until the plane is replaced, they will need to rework part of their schedule.
- Bad publicity for the airline. We still don't know who was at fault (pilots, equipment and so on), but even if it was the Legacy's fault, GOL has the blemish in the consumer's eye.
- Company wide distractions. Rather than continue to focus on company growth and public relations, they now will need to devote time and resources to finding out what happened, and make things right.
- Distress within the company. Employees of the company, especially the top officials will be left forever with the thought the the company that they worked for was involved in the deaths of 155 people.

These were the ones I could think off the top of my head. I'm sure that these are the same for every crash, which is a shame. My thoughts and prayers are with the vicims and their families of this crash and all crashes.
Why fly with 2 engines when you can have 3?
 
planesailing
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:06 am

I hate to say it, but I would suspect this kind of thing is planned for.

No one likes to think of these things, but in an airline world, contingency plans must be there should the worst case scenario happen.
 
ual757
Posts: 745
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:58 pm

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:12 am

Didn't Valujet shutdown after the everglades crash?
 
planesailing
Posts: 563
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:14 am

Not sure they shut down, but didn't they get their rear kicked for carrying oxygen cannisters?
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:22 am

TWA800 and PAA103 killed their respective companies.

Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
dampfnudel
Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:28 am

ValuJet merged with another company in 1997 and was renamed AirTran (thanks in part to the May 1996 crash). TWA and Pan Am were already in a downward spiral and those events just accelerated that process.

[Edited 2006-10-04 03:32:22]
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 4):
TWA800 and PAA103 killed their respective companies.

Pan Am 103, occurred in December 1988. Pan Am ceased operation in December 1991, almost three years later.

TWA 800 occurred July 1996. TWA ceased operations April 2001, almost five (5) years later..

If the crashes killed them, it tool a long time for them to actually die.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting UAL757 (Reply 2):
Didn't Valujet shutdown after the everglades crash?

They did, for awhile...

An accident can really knock the wind out of an airline's sails, especially if the airline involved already has other problems ongoing, and in addition to the TW800/TW and PA103/PA examples, you can add Air Florida's flight 90 as another example.

I think the eventual degree of "forgiveness" that the traveling public gives an airline is in part determined by how much they liked the airline to begin with, and how much they think (rightly or not) the airline's actions were to "blame" in the accident. In the case of the Legacy/GOL, if (and I want to stress "if" purely for the sake of example) the investigation determined that GOL was at fault, folks might be less forgiving than if the Legacy was at fault and GOL was a victim of that.

Based on what I've heard/read of the way that GOL has been handling things (excellent), that also leaves a positive impression on folks. I think they'll be fine...

[Edited 2006-10-04 03:50:00]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
User avatar
zippyjet
Posts: 5089
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:32 pm

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:47 am

Depends on the airline, and the country. The news media can make or brake an airline's future. With the GOL tragic crash, it had very little press time here in the states because of two national stories that dealt with sexual deviant behavior.

  • Tragic mass murder at the Amish school. The nutcase tuned out to be a perv dealing with molestation issues from back in the day. He abused two young girls in his family. Then massacared innocent school girls because of this.
  • The holier than though GOP Florida congressman who had a thing for underage boy congressional pages.


Now, if this air disaster was stateside and the other two stories were non-existant, the press would do their spin and hound the airline disaster story to the point of saturation.
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
F9Animal
Posts: 3649
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting Dampfnudel (Reply 5):
ValuJet merged with another company in 1997 and was renamed AirTran (thanks in part to the May 1996 crash). TWA and Pan Am were already in a downward spiral and those events just accelerated that process.

The crashes did not help the financial problems for TWA and Pan Am. Valujet was doomed after 592 went down. Their only option was to change their names, and try and rid the horrible publicity they got from it.
I Am A Different Animal!!
 
OB1504
Posts: 3003
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:47 am

For the record, ValuJet voluntarily ceased operations. They did so after realizing that it would be harder for them to get things back to normal if they had to shut down as a result of an FAA mandate, especially because they had already prohibited ValuJet from increasing its fleet or network.

They merged with a small charter outfit named AirTran that flying 737-200s based out of Orlando. ValuJet kept the AirTran name and introduced a new livery.

Sabretech, the company that supplied the canisters (and packaged them improperly) was taken to trial, and was indicted on 110 counts of manslaughter and 110 counts of third-degree murder. They went out of business in 1999, but court proceedings didn't end until 2001.


Another crash that one could argue killed an airline was that of AeroPeru's flight 603 in the Pacific Ocean. The airline permanently ceased operations in 1999. I flew on the aircraft only a few weeks before it crashed.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © JetPix

 
Cessna057
Posts: 417
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:24 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:54 am

Quoting Planesailing (Reply 1):
I hate to say it, but I would suspect this kind of thing is planned for.

I agree with you but it is very hard to totaly prepare for a crash.

Take the GOL for example. They may have prepared, but still they lost an aircraft which was bought for what $30m with 220 hours on the airframe. Also they have publicity because people always thing "oh well it happened once it will happen again", so they have to convince people its safe again.
Hold it . . . Hold it . . . HOLD THE FREAKIN NOSE UP!!
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:00 pm

The investigations will show whose at fault. GOL is still a respectable airline and is expanding.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting UAL757 (Reply 2):
Didn't Valujet shutdown after the everglades crash?



Quoting Planesailing (Reply 3):
Not sure they shut down, but didn't they get their rear kicked for carrying oxygen cannisters?

ValuJet WAS shutdown by the federal government. They had to completely overhaul their maintenance and operating standards. The merger with AirTran was one in which a non-operating carrier, ValuJet, purchased an operating carrier, Airtran. It was done so they could quickly change their name to disassociate themselves with the ValuJet brand, which had been pretty much destroyed in the press.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 4):
TWA800 and PAA103 killed their respective companies.

Absolutely correct. As indicated in other posts, both were in a downward spiral at the time of the accidents, but these occurrences caused a dramatic shift by travelers away from these two airlines. They were seen as "targets" and high-revenue business and a steady flow of government travelers simply booked other airlines. Pan Am 103 probably did more to kill Pan Am than did TWA 800's accident. TWA had more potential for recovery at the time of that accident than did Pan Am. Pan Am was practically a corpse at the time of 103. If you don't know anything about airlines, know this...because of the tremendous cash flows airlines generate, they can continue to operate long after their viability as an on-going concern has past. That was the case with Pan Am...they were already dead. TWA had tremendous merger potential with it's fairly large (at the time) domestic operation and was rich in unused international route authorities.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
alaska737
Posts: 867
Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:19 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:58 pm

Didnt the second PSA crash pretty much shut down the airline?


dont most crashes in general make the airline/aircraft type safer?
 
tonytifao
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 pm

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:05 pm

TAM had lots of accidents and is still pretty respectable.
 
dc863
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 1999 10:52 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 14):
Didnt the second PSA crash pretty much shut down the airline?

You mean the nutjob who shot and killed both pilots? Nah PSA was already in talks with USAir when that 146 crashed.
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting Alaska737 (Reply 14):
Didnt the second PSA crash pretty much shut down the airline?


dont most crashes in general make the airline/aircraft type safer?



Yes, I think so. Air travel is incredible safe, after each accident new things are learned. But they are also very hard financially on the Airline involved. After the AS261 crash not many people I know of in SJC wanted to take an Alaska flight to Mexico. I think the fact that a very popular financial talk show host, Cynthia Oti, was on board made that crash personal for a lot of people in the San Francisco Bay Area. Alaska is a great Airline now and I'm sure they learned a lot from the crash.

[Edited 2006-10-04 06:23:08]

[Edited 2006-10-04 06:23:35]
 
tonytifao
Posts: 788
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:22 pm

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:26 pm

how does insurance work for airlines? anyone know? in terms of getting the equipment back?
 
ptugarin
Posts: 214
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:09 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:29 pm

Gol is a big and healthy airline, and I doubt a crash can cause major disruptions and/or airline bancruptsy; this is what insurance is for. Even a much smaller airline, Armenian Air who lost two airframes this year (including one in a fatal crash) has not ceased its existence and I doubt it will.
 
SkyexRamper
Posts: 1952
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:31 pm

For those who may not know, back in the very early days of Midwest Express, now Midwest Airlines, they lost a DC-9 just off the departure end of 1R, hitting houses, killing 60 and 3 people on the ground.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 18):
how does insurance work for airlines? anyone know? in terms of getting the equipment back?

The airline has hull insurance and gets paid for the loss of the aircraft, and they can then spend it on buying/leasing another aircraft (or not).
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4962
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 3:27 pm

Well, it depends what the black boxes find and the autopsy of the Gol pilots?
The worst case scenario for an airline is that their airplane have design errors
in them which caused the crash. I think of the MD-11 and Swissair.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
sideflare75
Posts: 417
Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 2:30 pm

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:06 pm

[quote=Skyexramper,reply=20]For those who may not know, back in the very early days of Midwest Express, now Midwest Airlines, they lost a DC-9 just off the departure end of 1R, hitting houses, killing 60 and 3 people on the ground.[/quote

It was 31 people and they were all on the aircraft. It crashed in the woods just off of runway 19R just across College Ave. due to engine failure on takeoff. But anyway it's hard to believe a small carrier like they were at the time could survive something like this only a little more than a year after starting operations. I wasn't working here yet but people still talk about it.
 
SeeTheWorld
Posts: 1090
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2005 2:46 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 10):
For the record, ValuJet voluntarily ceased operations. They did so after realizing that it would be harder for them to get things back to normal if they had to shut down as a result of an FAA mandate, especially because they had already prohibited ValuJet from increasing its fleet or network.

Crashes can be serious problems if there are other larger systemic problems with the airline. In the case of ValuJet, there were many systemic problems, and it was the worst kept secret in the aviation industry. Many of the aviation professionals I worked with at the time (prior to the Everglades crash) were extremely concerned about what they were hearing and seeing with regard to the ValuJet operation. In fact, two months before the crash, one of my colleagues said, "It's only a matter of time before something really bad happens there."

And, as stated above ValuJet WAS shutdown for several months by the FAA.

Quoting Cessna057 (Reply 11):
Take the GOL for example. They may have prepared, but still they lost an aircraft which was bought for what $30m with 220 hours on the airframe. Also they have publicity because people always thing "oh well it happened once it will happen again", so they have to convince people its safe again.

If often depends on the type of crash. In the GOL case, it's pretty apparent that whatever went wrong will likely be attributed to the Legacy jet and not anything with GOL or its aircraft. When it becomes a tragic mistake (not due to the airline), it's usually not a long term problem. It's much murkier if it is unclear. A case in point was the US Air crash in PIT in 1994. US Air had had several crashes in previous years (one that was ATC's fault, two involving weather, and a runway overrun that cost the lives of two or three people), but it turned into a financial disaster for US Air because it took so long to figure out what happened. As the days, weeks, and months moved on, there was some real question as to whether they may be a systemic problem at US Air.
 
zschocheimages
Posts: 141
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 6:21 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 4):
TWA800 and PAA103 killed their respective companies

DL191, NW255, and AA191 all happened with the media spotlight shining right on the company. Albeit DL191 was weather related, but still, those companies ended up being ok.

Quoting Planesailing (Reply 1):
I hate to say it, but I would suspect this kind of thing is planned for

Good point. American lost two aircraft in 9/11 and then a third a month later (AA587) and they haven't been in bancrupcy.

Quoting Ptugarin (Reply 19):
Gol is a big and healthy airline, and I doubt a crash can cause major disruptions and/or airline bancruptsy; this is what insurance is for

I wasn't meaning that they would enter bancruptsy, I just wanted to bring up a few things that the airline will have to deal with over the next few months. AS didn't enter bancruptsy after the crash of flight 261, and they are a LCC just like GOL.
Why fly with 2 engines when you can have 3?
 
User avatar
deltadawg
Posts: 868
Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 2:56 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:52 pm

Any crash for an airline is bad enough, mostly for the families involved, but when it comes to bad publicity that affects the airline I believe ValuJet takes the cake.

Not only were they at fault for maintenance but it was the oxygen canisters that were on board that contributed to the crash. If that were not bad enough the images on the news from helicopters showing some of the passengers being taken under by the gators nailed the coffin shut for ValuJet. I also remember some of the police and sherrifs personnel on site talking to the news crews about having to fend off the gators and wrestle bodies away from the gators.

So, while any crash is horrific in its own way I believe it was the greed, neglect and visual horror of the site that gave ValuJet the worst blow in the end. However, today the remnants of ValuJet (AirTran) is one of the best expamples in the industry, especially on the LCC side.

Just my $.02
Thanks
GO Dawgs, Sic' em, woof woof woof
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:46 am

Quoting Planesailing (Reply 1):
No one likes to think of these things, but in an airline world, contingency plans must be there should the worst case scenario happen.

Almost all airlines around the world today have a whole dept. that is dedicated to disaster planning and recovery. It goes under various names, but it falls under the broad category of business continuity. Its their responsibility to have plans in place for everything, from initial notification of internal employees, media and press handling, employee response teams, search and rescue, etc., etc.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 7):
think the eventual degree of "forgiveness" that the traveling public gives an airline is in part determined by how much they liked the airline to begin with, and how much they think (rightly or not) the airline's actions were to "blame" in the accident. In the case of the Legacy/GOL, if (and I want to stress "if" purely for the sake of example) the investigation determined that GOL was at fault, folks might be less forgiving than if the Legacy was at fault and GOL was a victim of that.

Based on what I've heard/read of the way that GOL has been handling things (excellent), that also leaves a positive impression on folks. I think they'll be fine...

Actually this is a point that a lot of folks miss. How the airline handles the crash in the public's eye is critical. TWA800 was a case study in how not to do it. From the very first they weren't organized, left families hanging, didn't provide access to the remains when recovered, etc. The perception (not the reality I'm sure, I'm not bashing TWA) was that they didn't care, and that angered a lot of folks and left a lasting impression. As OPNL points out, GOL has been very proactive, keeping everyone informed. I'm betting that GOL employees are in direct contact if not physically with every effected family, and that GOL is covering all costs these families incur as the recover the bodies and provide appropriate services. I think one of the reasons that AS was able to recover as rapidly as they did was this exact thing. Especially considering that AS maint. practices took such a heavy hit in the investigation. Yet what stood out was how we reacted, how open we were, and how supportive we were to the families.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 17):
After the AS261 crash not many people I know of in SJC wanted to take an Alaska flight to Mexico.

I can't remember the exact time frame, but for a significant period we waived all fees and penalties for anyone wanting to switch off of an MD-80, no questions asked.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
1stfl94
Posts: 1082
Joined: Fri May 12, 2006 12:33 am

RE: Crashes And The Effects On Airlines

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:58 pm

It sometimes mainly depends on whose fault the crash is. In the case of JAL 123 the President of JAL resigned while several employers and a number of the engineers at JAL and one at Boeing who had worked on the aircraft committed suicide (flawed repair job was identified as the main cause of the crash).

However the actions of the airline bosses also play a part. Michael Bishop was knighted in 1991 for his work after the BD crash in 1989 while Niki Lauda personally tested findings from the crash of Lauda 223 in a 767 simulator, helping to clear his airline's name.