N701AA
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Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:08 pm

Brazil seizes passports of US pilots tied to crash
Tue Oct 3, 2006 7:34 PM ET

By Andrei Khalip
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil, Oct 3 (Reuters) - Brazilian authorities confiscated the passports of two American pilots on Tuesday who were flying a business jet that apparently collided with a commercial airliner that crashed last week deep in the Amazon jungle, killing all 155 people on board.

Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane went down, told Reuters police had seized the passports of U.S. citizens Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino on his orders for the duration of the investigation. "That's a cautionary measure. If they returned to the United States it would require a lot of time and effort for us to collect their testimony," the judge said, adding that the investigation should not take long.

The two pilots, who were flying a newly built executive jet that authorities believe clipped the Boeing 737-800 in midair, arrived on Tuesday in Rio de Janeiro for medical and psychological tests as part of the investigation.
They face more questioning on Wednesday. "They are being interviewed by the authorities and are giving their total cooperation with the investigation," said Glauco Paiva, a U.S. consulate official in Rio.

The business jet, a Legacy 600 made by Brazilian manufacturer Embraer, was recently purchased by ExcelAire Service, a charter company based in Ronkonkoma, New York. The pilots were flying it to the United States when it apparently hit the airliner flown by low-cost Brazilian carrier Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes. The business jet was able to land safely at a military base in the jungle. None of the seven people on board were hurt.

DEVIATION FROM FLIGHT PLAN
Air Force commander Luiz Carlos Bueno said on Monday both planes were flying at 37,000 feet (11,300 metres), which means that one of them had strayed from its flight plan. Investigators want to know why modern collision avoidance equipment installed on both planes did not prevent the accident, local aviation authorities said.

Brazilian news reports have offered a range of conflicting theories about the accident's cause, some speculating that the Legacy jet may have deviated from its flight plan. Christine Negroni, with U.S. law firm Kreindler & Kreindler which is not involved in the investigation, said all planes heading west in Brazil fly at even multiples of 1,000 feet, and those hading east at odd multiples.
"Since the American pilots were flying northwest, they should not have been at 37,000 (feet). That's very odd," she told Reuters.

A message asking for comment left with an ExcelAire official was not immediately returned.

At the crash site in a dense, remote area in the rain forest, salvage crews had recovered the remains of about 50 victims by Tuesday, including the airliner's two pilots. "Parts of the plane and many bodies are scattered over an area of some 20 square kilometers in the forest and searchers have to scare away wild animals, especially at night, by burning large fires," an air force spokesman said.

A badly damaged black box from the Boeing will probably be taken for analysis to the United States or Canada, after which it will be compared with the data from the business jet, aviation authorities said. As it often does, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board sent investigators to help with the probe in Brazil.

Grieving relatives were asked to provide dental records or descriptions that could help identify the bodies, as well as blood samples for DNA tests.
 
N701AA
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:24 pm

"Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane went down, told Reuters police had seized the passports of U.S. citizens Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino on his orders for the duration of the investigation. "That's a cautionary measure. If they returned to the United States it would require a lot of time and effort for us to collect their testimony," the judge said, adding that the investigation should not take long."

"Brazilian news reports have offered a range of conflicting theories about the accident's cause, some speculating that the Legacy jet may have deviated from its flight plan. "

I hope the investigation and the actions of Brazilian authorities remain guided by facts, and not by emotions or media speculation. It is obvious that a thorough and complete investigation could take months. Not sure what makes the judge think the investigation should not take long.

The two pilots may be in for a long ride!
 
richm
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:24 pm

Quoting N701AA (Thread starter):
searchers have to scare away wild animals, especially at night, by burning large fires

Not that it's that relevant, but I don't understand this bit..
 
N701AA
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:34 pm

Quoting RichM (Reply 2):
Not that it's that relevant, but I don't understand this bit..

The job of the rescuers in this area of Brazil must be extenuating. This accident happened in a very isolated part of the Brazilean jungle. If anyone has traveled in this part of the world, they will certainly understand the challenges they face.
 
Gary2880
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:41 pm

Quoting RichM (Reply 2):
Not that it's that relevant, but I don't understand this bit..

well if they haven't removed the 150 odd body's yet...

i guess relatives would be sad enough having to deal with their next of kin dieing in a plane crash, i think having to tell them the body has been eaten by a whatever in the jungle may put the icing on the cake?
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
antiuser
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:47 pm

Quoting N701AA (Reply 1):
I hope the investigation and the actions of Brazilian authorities remain guided by facts, and not by emotions or media speculation.

And why would it happen any other way? The Air Force and the DAC are being really careful with what they say or imply, the pilots are under the custody of the US consulate in Rio and are not under arrest. Brazil and the US have a very tight diplomatic relationship and the last thing they want after such a tragedy is a diplomatic incident. The NTSB sent some of its own personnel down to Brazil to assist the investigation and so far nothing has happened to imply the investigations weren't being handled fairly. Had this accident occurred with a foreign crew in any other country, the situation would probably be the same.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
antiuser
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 6:15 pm

Quoting RichM (Reply 2):
Not that it's that relevant, but I don't understand this bit..

You don't want one of these walking around a crash site with bodies everywhere...
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:55 pm

There is no doubt there is a great deal of emotion involved in this case but there also is nothing coming to light that would exonerate the Excelaire pilots. Brazil will do a very thorough job investigating and they have invited the US’s NTSB to join the investigation. But from the very beginning of this crash, some things just didn’t add up and they still don’t. I don’t know what the punishment in Brazil is for being the cause of an airplane crash that claims 155 lives but Excelaire lawyers should be asking that question.
 
zschocheimages
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting N701AA (Thread starter):
Since the American pilots were flying northwest, they should not have been at 37,000 (feet). That's very odd

I thought the same thing when I first started to read about the crash. There are many things that are still out of place in this whole situation.
Why fly with 2 engines when you can have 3?
 
Dtw757
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:23 pm

My thoughts go out to everyone involved in this crash from the families of the victims to the people trying to conduct a recovery and investigation. They all have a difficult road ahead.
721,2,732,3,4,5,G,8,9,741,2,3,4,752,3,762,3,4,772,3,788,D93,5,M80,D10,M11,L10,100,AB6,319,20,21,332,3,346,388,146,CR2,7,
 
N701AA
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 5):
And why would it happen any other way?

Having Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, make declarations to the media that "We know that the transponder was turned off," "A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," is very inappropriate, simply wrong, and only adds fuel to the emotions of already devastated people. "The Legacy could have" should be a scenario for the investigators. When they find that "The Legacy did" then it becomes a fact, and then he should tell the world. Speculation is great for this forum, that is what we do best, but not in Pereira's statements to the media.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 7):
for being the cause of an airplane crash that claims 155 lives but Excelaire lawyers should be asking that question.

Since You already seem to know what caused the crash maybe you should fgly down there and help them
Stand Up and Be Counted Visit Site Related to Voice your opinion
 
antiuser
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting N701AA (Reply 10):
Having Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, make declarations to the media that "We know that the transponder was turned off," "A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," is very inappropriate, simply wrong, and only adds fuel to the emotions of already devastated people.

I didn't know he made those statements. In that case, yes, I agree with you - these statements are completely out of place and do nothing but veer the media towards one side or the other. However, I don't think Infraero is a key player in the investigation - they administer the airports, they don't (usually) deal with crashes and accidents unless they're on airport grounds. The Brazilian Air Force still has a note up on their site saying it's much too early to draw any sort of conclusion and the investigations are ongoing, and the DAC hasn't updated their press section since yesterday. These are the people who actually matter, the ones conducting the investigation.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
ANother
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:29 am

Quoting N701AA (Reply 1):
The two pilots may be in for a long ride!

Possibly, but I am sure they won't be locked up in a secret prison, tortured or put to death - whatever they MAY have done. Brazil is a civilised country.
 
N701AA
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 13):
I am sure they won't be locked up in a secret prison, tortured or put to death

I lost you. Are you still talking about this topic? Hmm!

Quoting ANother (Reply 13):
Brazil is a civilised country.

No doubt about it!...not that inexplicable things don't happen in civilized countries, though!
 
antiuser
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting N701AA (Reply 10):
Speculation is great for this forum, that is what we do best, but not in Pereira's statements to the media.

It'd also be good to point out that Mr. Sharkey has said to the press that "ATC in Brazil is terrible" - an equally misleading and speculative statement...
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
B777fan
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:49 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 13):
Possibly, but I am sure they won't be locked up in a secret prison, tortured or put to death - whatever they MAY have done. Brazil is a civilised country.

?????

Are suggesting that's what would happen somewhere else?
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting ZschocheImages (Reply 8):
Quoting N701AA (Thread starter):
Since the American pilots were flying northwest, they should not have been at 37,000 (feet). That's very odd

I thought the same thing when I first started to read about the crash. There are many things that are still out of place in this whole situation.

Apparently the investigation is focused on the fact that the Legacy pilots "ignored" the ATC instructions to fly at 36,000 feet. The FDR of the Legacy and the 737-800, and the CVRs should confirm this. The next question is why did the TCAS not go off? if it did, then why the lack of action? There could be all kinds of other issues such as incorrect altimeter settings, "no communicato..."
Only the paranoid survive
 
antiuser
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 17):
The next question is why did the TCAS not go off? if it did, then why the lack of action?

The information published so far states the transponder might have been turned off or malfunctioning, in which case TCAS wouldn't work. However, the authorities involved in the investigation have not confirmed that info.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
dellatorre
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 17):
Apparently the investigation is focused on the fact that the Legacy pilots "ignored" the ATC instructions to fly at 36,000 feet. The FDR of the Legacy and the 737-800, and the CVRs should confirm this. The next question is why did the TCAS not go off? if it did, then why the lack of action? There could be all kinds of other issues such as incorrect altimeter settings, "no communicato..."



Quoting N701AA (Reply 10):
Having Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, make declarations to the media that "We know that the transponder was turned off," "A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," is very inappropriate, simply wrong, and only adds fuel to the emotions of already devastated people. "The Legacy could have" should be a scenario for the investigators. When they find that "The Legacy did" then it becomes a fact, and then he should tell the world. Speculation is great for this forum, that is what we do best, but not in Pereira's statements to the media.

Why don't we all wait and see what's the result od this investigation will be! To have everybody making all kinds of assumptions is really boring!!!!!

And if in the end the American pilots turn out to be guilty, so be it! They must suffer the consequences!!!!!!! Simple as that!!!!!
 
ANother
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:43 am

Quoting B777fan (Reply 16):
Are suggesting that's what would happen somewhere else?

No, I'm suggesting that in Brazil there would be due process. The pilots have not been arrested but the courts (not the police or the investigators) have decided that they should remain in Brazil until further notice. This is due process, is it not?
 
F22KA
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To C

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:43 am

AHA! I see OHLHD..., Guantanamo Bay is the place where foreign pilots are brought as a result of plane accidents committed against American airliners.
I learned something new today. You are good!!!
 
VEEREF
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:00 am

I would stay and be cooperative, but under NO circumstances would I surrender my passport to any government without my country's embassy getting involved.
That's a good way to have your identity stolen. There's a huge market for stolen US passports. I've had "government officials" try to shake me down for things like that in quite a few countries. Brazil is a very modern and civilized country, but there's always a few rotten apples no matter where you go.

There are plenty of other ways to keep the pilots there.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 13):
Possibly, but I am sure they won't be locked up in a secret prison, tortured or put to death - whatever they MAY have done. Brazil is a civilised country.

Actually, it is fairly well known the Brazil has some of the toughest prisons around. That said, they are a very civilized country and these are not common criminals and will be treated well. Unfortunately, they MAY have committed a fatal mistake.

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 18):
It might be a cross reference to Guantanamo Bay..... oh he forgot that nobody is tortured anymore... as there are no secret prisons

As much as I disapprove of the current administration, to say that Guantanamo is worse than prison in other countries would be incorrect. There are prisons that are horrible places, where people have no rights, and where there are tortures happening every day. Guantanamo is probably mild in comparison.

Quoting ANother (Reply 21):
No, I'm suggesting that in Brazil there would be due process. The pilots have not been arrested but the courts (not the police or the investigators) have decided that they should remain in Brazil until further notice. This is due process, is it not?

If two Brazilian pilots had been involved in a fatal accident in the US, their passports would have been confiscated as well. It's only normal, and definitely part of due process.

Quoting F22KA (Reply 22):
AHA! I see OHLHD..., Guantanamo Bay is the place where foreign pilots are brought as a result of plane accidents committed against American airliners.
I learned something new today. You are good!!!

Actually, I believe all the pilots that were involved in plane accidents committed against American airliners died in the execution of such actions. Gitmo is full of suspected terrorists, isn't it?

FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
antiuser
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 23):
I would stay and be cooperative, but under NO circumstances would I surrender my passport to any government without my country's embassy getting involved.

The US embassy is involved. The pilots are under the custody of the US Consulate in Rio de Janeiro.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
DMAJ7TH
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 20):
Why don't we all wait and see what's the result od this investigation will be! To have everybody making all kinds of assumptions is really boring!!!!!

And if in the end the American pilots turn out to be guilty, so be it! They must suffer the consequences!!!!!!! Simple as

once again, someone fails to see the point of this forum. its a hobbyists website. folks should be invited to speculate left and right, as long as it stays confined to forums such as these. thats what a.net is here for. any objections?
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting DMAJ7TH (Reply 26):
once again, someone fails to see the point of this forum. its a hobbyists website. folks should be invited to speculate left and right, as long as it stays confined to forums such as these. thats what a.net is here for. any objections?

 bigthumbsup 
Only the paranoid survive
 
FLY2LIM
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting DMAJ7TH (Reply 26):
once again, someone fails to see the point of this forum. its a hobbyists website. folks should be invited to speculate left and right, as long as it stays confined to forums such as these. thats what a.net is here for. any objections?

Nope, no objections at all. No one here expects anyone in these forums to solve the world's problems of hunger, poverty, and torture. We just love airplanes and flying.  Smile

FLY2LIM
Faucett. La primera linea aerea del Peru.
 
N701AA
Topic Author
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To C

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting DMAJ7TH (Reply 26):
once again, someone fails to see the point of this forum. its a hobbyists website. folks should be invited to speculate left and right, as long as it stays confined to forums such as these. thats what a.net is here for. any objections?

Right on!

As I said before "Speculation is great for this forum, that is what we do best."
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Dellatorre (Reply 20):
And if in the end the American pilots turn out to be guilty, so be it! They must suffer the consequences!!!!!!! Simple as that!!!!!

Anytime a person commits a crime in a country that is not his own, it becomes a bigger deal. There is every indication that Brazil is handling this investigation fairly and accurately – and with the assistance of the US and its technical resources.

But the Brazilians do have an obligation to their citizens to tell them what they believe happened and explain this horrific loss. It wasn’t very long after the Comair crash that the NTSB began releasing evidence that made it very apparent there was pilot error involved. Sure, there’s no formal report and there is a clear understanding that there were other factors at work in the Comair crash so the NTSB has issued no final determination yet. The Brazilians are doing the very same thing.

Remember it was people on this board that clamored saying in the first hours after the accident that the Brazilians should be saying something. Now that they are and it implicates Americans, people aren’t so interested in hearing the truth.

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 23):
There's a huge market for stolen US passports.

Please. If your US passport is so precious to you, I suggest you stay at home in BUMXUK county where it won’t be necessary for you to display it. As long as you travel in another country, expect to be required to display it – and surrender it on request. You can call the US Embassy or Consulate if your host country doesn’t call them first.

Quoting DMAJ7TH (Reply 26):
once again, someone fails to see the point of this forum. its a hobbyists website

Yes, and how many people here were throwing all kinds of theories out in the first few hours, including that this was a drug running plane?
 
B777fan
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:06 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 21):
This is due process, is it not?

It is due process and I appreciate your clarification.

I am not alarmed that individuals who are involved in the deaths of 155 people, whether culpable or not are detained pending an investigation.
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting Antiuser (Reply 6):
Quoting RichM (Reply 2):
Not that it's that relevant, but I don't understand this bit..

You don't want one of these walking around a crash site with bodies everywhere...

Ah, the good ol' Onça! Seen them in the wild down there and while they aren't that big...they are formidable. Lighting fires, having a firearm at your side is academic in this situation...
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:28 am

Brazilian Federal Police also include their names on the list of people forbidden to leave Brazil.
They are suspect of a murder as per Brazilian Law, also it seems that they not respected Brazilian Civil Aviation rules and pending further investigation, they will stay in Brazil.

I'm sure they will receive all the opportunities to defend themselves as our Law respect both sides and until anyone is declared guilt, is just a suspect with all their civil rights.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting FLY2LIM (Reply 28):
Quoting DMAJ7TH (Reply 26):
once again, someone fails to see the point of this forum. its a hobbyists website. folks should be invited to speculate left and right, as long as it stays confined to forums such as these. thats what a.net is here for. any objections?

Nope, no objections at all. No one here expects anyone in these forums to solve the world's problems of hunger, poverty, and torture. We just love airplanes and flying.

FLY2LIM

Not aiming this at you FLY2LIM, but then why do many a.netters here on this forum always have to resort to flaming someone for their opinion? I guess the other name for this site should be FLAMESOMEONE.NET. At times it's exasperating to just try and read the posts and gain information...someone always flaming someone else because..1) they want to "oneup" someone else, 2) they don't agree with someone else and can't stand the fact that someone else has another opinion and God forbid...they could be right!  cry  then throw a  hissyfit 

Oh well...
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
N701AA
Topic Author
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To C

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):

Anytime a person commits a crime in a country that is not his own, it becomes a bigger deal.

Fact - the F/O in the Comair crash in KLEX was the flying pilot on an aircraft that took off from the wrong runway. Knowing well that a final NTSB Accident Report hasn't been issued in that accident, I don't recall reading anywhere that a crime was committed in that case, or the pilot is a criminal, or that jail awaits him. I am definitely not suggesting so.

Why are you suggesting this case is a crime? What makes it different? What do you know that I don't?

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
Nowrnthatrnthey are and it implicates Americans, people aren't so interestedrninrnhearing the truth.

Nothing that we speculate in this forum regarding this accident can be classified as "the truth." We are counting on the authorities to come up with the truth. This accident happened in Brazil. Brazilians, Americans, and people from other nationalities are implicated. However, conditions that lead to it may exist and take place anywhere in the world. We hope for the truth, so that factors that led to this accident can be prevented from ever happening again.
 
DMAJ7TH
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 30):
Yes, and how many people here were throwing all kinds of theories out in the first few hours, including that this was a drug running plane?

yup, as ridiculous as something like that sounds, the person saying it has every right to say it on this forum. most of the time, though, i truly believe that people on here say stuff just to get folks riled up. they just want to illicit some type of reaction from people. some of us take a forum such as this seriously, others don't. i dont know what else to say - it is what it is. but, in the meantime, it provides us all with hours (minutes) of entertainment. kind of like an x-box for airplane freaks.
 
CcrlR
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:03 am

The journalist was on ABC World news Tonight talking about his experience. They said something about the pilots arrested in the incindent.
"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
 
ULMFlyer
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To C

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 33):
They are suspect of a murder as per Brazilian Law

Just a correction here. The right translation to English would be manslaughter and not murder.

I think it's way too early for the federal police to get involved.

Quoting N701AA (Reply 35):
Fact - the F/O in the Comair crash in KLEX was the flying pilot on an aircraft that took off from the wrong runway. Knowing well that a final NTSB Accident Report hasn't been issued in that accident, I don't recall reading anywhere that a crime was committed in that case, or the pilot is a criminal, or that jail awaits him. I am definitely not suggesting so.

Why are you suggesting this case is a crime? What makes it different? What do you know that I don't?

The difference would be between an honest mistake or error and willingly not complying with ATC instructions or turning off the transponder, which by the way I find it hard to believe such a professional crew would do.
Let's go Pens!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting N701AA (Reply 35):
Fact - the F/O in the Comair crash in KLEX was the flying pilot on an aircraft that took off from the wrong runway. Knowing well that a final NTSB Accident Report hasn't been issued in that accident, I don't recall reading anywhere that a crime was committed in that case, or the pilot is a criminal, or that jail awaits him. I am definitely not suggesting so.

ULM nailed it but there is no evidence that the Comair pilots intentionally did anything that would be criminal. There are indications that might have happened by the crew of the LEGACY>

And people can break the law without anyone being killed or even an accident occurring. The fact that the two possibility occurred together is what makes this a much bigger deal.

If you are in an automobile accident and someone is killed, there will not be charges if you did nothing wrong. If you were drunk or, thankfully in some jurisdictions now, talking on a cell phone, you could be charged with murder.

Quoting N701AA (Reply 35):
Brazilians, Americans, and people from other nationalities are implicated.

Actually, no. Only Americans are implicated in the case at this point.
 
N701AA
Topic Author
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 39):
Actually, no. Only Americans are implicated in the case at this point.

You must be kidding me!
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:48 am

have the Brazilians indicated that any other nationalities are involved? I sure haven't heard anything. PERHAPS you could sift through something I missed and let me know.
 
thegooddoctor
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting F22KA (Reply 22):
AHA! I see OHLHD..., Guantanamo Bay is the place where foreign pilots are brought as a result of plane accidents committed against American airliners.

Hmmm, I take issue with Atta and company being called "pilots"...

I love reasonable people  Smile
The GoodDoctor
 
ltbewr
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:35 am

As I suggested in other related posts in this tagedy, I am not surprised that they are still in Brazil for the early parts of the investigation. I am quite sure that in the USA, EC or many other countries they would do the same.
Until we get the recorder info from both aircraft reviewed by independent professionals, just blaiming the Leagacy crew is just convenient for now as they survivied. It is possible that the GOL a/c could have been in the wrong or even both a/c. We need to see a through investigation of the ATC tapes, transcripts, testimony of those on duty. There also has to be investigation as what some have claimed as to difficulties with ATC in the region where this happened. That the GOL aircraft debris field and the bodies of the victims are so scattered, makes investigation in that area impossible in the short term.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 41):
have the Brazilians indicated that any other nationalities are involved? I sure haven't heard anything. PERHAPS you could sift through something I missed and let me know.

A Frenchmen and a Portuguese were among the victims. I have not heard anything beyond the two.

The French citizen apparantly lived in Brazil, as do (at least part of) his relatives.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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lightsaber
Crew
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:06 am

An account from a journalist anboard the Embraer was mailed around are office today. If correct, the two pilots were very sad to hear that the plane they collided with went down. So I do not see crimnal culpability; but I do see the need for Brazil to do a throrough investigation. So it is reasonable to keep the pilots in Brazil for the initial investigation.

The fact is that crash investigations tend to be long detailed proceedures. Should the two flight plans be compared? Yes. Perhaps one or the other flights were given a wrong altitude. Perhaps one or the other was traveling at an altitude other than their flight plan.

I personally want to know why the collision avoidance electronics didn't work.  wideeyed 

Also note, the pilots are "fully cooperating." It doesn't sound like their in gitmo, rather more like they are trying to figure this out and help Brazil investigate. If I survived a mid-air, I'd want to know why it happened and how to keep it from ever happening again!

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
EXC47
Posts: 15
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:08 am

Here goes my opinion. I really don't care if it hurts someone's feeling. This person that left his friends in Brazil and took off after taking pictures for his subject about Amazon.... If he wants to sell his stuff then tell the truth... don't come up with self heroic tales. Making sensationalism on someone's shoulder, even IF they made a terrible mistake is something else. The real deal will come up after the investigations. I'm sorry for the families that lost their beloved ones in the crash. But I'm also sorry for those responsible for this cathastrofic event. They should, IF it's found it's their mistake, like disconnecting a circuit brake or something else, so they could fly higher without been detected, be accountable. I really don't believe there was any faulty equipment. I also don't believe they didn't see what they collided with. The rate of closure is very high but one can see even at last second, what's coming. If someone is flying the plane and know they are at the wrong FL wouldn't you think this person is not paying attention outside ? Would be double stupidity. Good sense only dictates if there was a problem they should land and fix it. This could be a big lesson once more, to be learned. Let's wait and hopefully see the outcome of the investigation bring the real, clean facts.
This is only my opinion.
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1426
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting ANother (Reply 13):
Possibly, but I am sure they won't be locked up in a secret prison, tortured or put to death - whatever they MAY have done. Brazil is a civilised country.

LOL. Go eat some Chocolate. Oh, and get rid of those F-18's you fly.  bored 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
bond007
Posts: 4425
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RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:26 am

This thread would be VERY different if it were Brazilian pilots flying a new Gulfstream from Savannah who hit a WN Boeing 737 in US Airspace!

We seized their passports? ....oh we'd all be making the same comments  Yeah sure


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
flyboy36y
Posts: 2897
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:45 pm

RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 23):
I would stay and be cooperative, but under NO circumstances would I surrender my passport to any government without my country's embassy getting involved.

You dont have a choice if it is a court order.
 
hamster
Posts: 135
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 11:08 am

RE: Brazil Seizes Passports Of US Pilots Tied To Crash

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:29 am

I think detaining the pilots is ridiculous. It was an accident. Flying at 36,000 feet or mistakenly flying at 37,000 feet is no reason to detain these pilots. There was no intent to injure anyone. I dont believe their actions are even reckless.

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