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SLCUT2777
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SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:29 am

This just in on the KSL website from the AP wire:
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=540317
SALT LAKE CITY (AP)

Quote:
-- Utah probably won't have a direct flight to Europe in 2007, despite personal lobbying at Delta Air Lines by Gov. Jon Huntsman and other leaders.
"It's not an impossibility, but it's improbable at this point that we will get service to Paris in 2007," Salt Lake County Mayor Peter Corroon said.
"2008 is certainly something we would be shooting for," said Corroon, who was part of a Utah delegation that visited Delta headquarters in Atlanta this week.
Delta spokeswoman Gina Laughlin said the airline remains interested in creating the flight.
Roy Williams, executive director of Salt Lake City International Airport, said the request for service by next summer was a "long shot."
The Utah Board of Tourism Development, Salt Lake City Airport Authority and Salt Lake Convention & Visitors Bureau have pledged $650,000 to promote a new flight to Europe.
Delta has been expanding international service as part of a restructuring plan. The airline filed for bankruptcy protection in September 2005.
"They want to feel comfortable that going down this path makes financial sense," Corroon said of new flights.

What I think Roy Williams is saying that SLC isn't quite ready to accommodate such flights yet, and some significant airport improvements MUST be made before such flights can be offered by DL. Despite what many naysayers here on a.net have said, the market demography is here for SLC to have such flights, just the lack of physical facilities.
I think this is just Delta's way of telling SLC: "If you prepare for it and build it; it will come."
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:11 am

I saw this yesterday on the Tribune's website. Fairly disappointing as I was looking forward to using this flight next summer if it were started. Still, it's nice to see that DL is indeed still interested in the route.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
Despite what many naysayers here on a.net have said, the market demography is here for SLC to have such flights, just the lack of physical facilities.

What facilities do you mean?
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 2):
What facilities do you mean?

SLC lacks the terminal space for such flights (although some will say the current International gates in the D Concourse will work for now). They do fine with the Mexican and Canadian flights but to Europe? Not ready for such. Further; they also lack a long enough runway to allow a fully laden DL 763ER to depart without weight restrictions during the heat of the height of the summer when temps are typically 100+ F (39+ C).
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
Further; they also lack a long enough runway to allow a fully laden DL 763ER to depart without weight restrictions during the heat of the height of the summer when temps are typically 100+ F (39+ C).

not just the heat, but the combo of the heat and the altititude. SLC will need a longer runway and this is probably the improvement which will take the longest leed time to be accomplished.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:35 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):

SLC lacks the terminal space for such flights (although some will say the current International gates in the D Concourse will work for now). They do fine with the Mexican and Canadian flights but to Europe? Not ready for such. Further; they also lack a long enough runway to allow a fully laden DL 763ER to depart without weight restrictions during the heat of the height of the summer when temps are typically 100+ F (39+ C).

These improvements won't be made by 2008, so this doesn't sound like the reason. I think it has more to do with DL lacking the aircraft to do the route, as they have a commitment to additional international flying from JFK and ATL. In 2008 DL will begin to receive new 737-800s and 777s, which will allow for aircraft repositioning which would, in turn, allow for SLC-CDG.

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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:41 am

DL could be wanting SLC to kick in more $$ too.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
DL could be wanting SLC to kick in more $$ too.

It looks like the $$$ and the interest from local and state government were clearly there for the route and if anything I think Delta was testing the waters to see what they could get from SLC and the State of Utah as far as incentives, hence the rumors about an unnamed city which sent all of the PIT supporters nuts on a.net thinking DL was their golden flight-path back to trans-Atlantic service.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 5):
I think it has more to do with DL lacking the aircraft to do the route, as they have a commitment to additional international flying from JFK and ATL. In 2008 DL will begin to receive new 737-800s and 777s, which will allow for aircraft repositioning which would, in turn, allow for SLC-CDG.

I agree that this is likely the scenario for 2007, but airport improvements being at least underway are something DL will be looking for before they try such a route from SLC in 2008 or thereafter.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7):
It looks like the $$$ and the interest from local and state government were clearly there for the route and if anything I think Delta was testing the waters to see what they could get from SLC and the State of Utah as far as incentives, hence the rumors about an unnamed city which sent all of the PIT supporters nuts on a.net thinking DL was their golden flight-path back to trans-Atlantic service.

Good luck SLC, I don't see it anytime soon!
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:45 am

This is all about the money. Delta will try to squeeze every last dime out of the Salt Lake City community before they fly to Paris. Delta is claiming they need over $6 Million to begin the route and continue to use PDX as the barometer of community support. SLC does not have a company like Nike that can kick in financial support to appease the disingenuous wishes of the hubbing carrier. I find it hard to believe that Delta would consider serving a market if they knew huge financial losses would be incurred. What happens in year two, does the market lose $4 million? Delta is too smart to serve a market that has no long term potential of financial return. Delta is clearly in the drivers seat in these negotiations. We have a community that is desperate for its first transatlantic nonstop service and a carrier that is willing to provide that service at a steep price. Does the community meet Delta's demands? My guess is that Delta would operate Paris at something less than $6 million, but the SLC community, including the Chambers of Commerce, Visitors Bureau, Ski Utah, etc will have to come to the table with more cash than what has been reported.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 8):
Good luck SLC, I don't see it anytime soon!

SLC will see it LONG before PIT sees it again!

Quoting Boslax (Reply 9):
Delta is claiming they need over $6 Million to begin the route and continue to use PDX as the barometer of community support.

This is typical when starting service more often than not, especially domestic routes nowadays. Look at what Wichita, KS offered FL to come in and compete with DL. Logistics and aircraft availability dictated this one for 2007. I'd wait for 2008 to pass final judgement on SLC for this service. The problem with PDX for international flights is they are in close proximity to SFO, SEA and YVR, so the litmus test for service is going to be higher. SLC on the other hand is considerably more removed from DEN, PHX, LAS and LAX so hence such a threshold won't be the same.

Quoting Boslax (Reply 9):
SLC does not have a company like Nike that can kick in financial support to appease the disingenuous wishes of the hubbing carrier.

SLC has enough small high-tech companies and other larger corporations that would go all out to get service. It isn't like SJC trying to get something that can more easily be served by SFO just up the road.

Quoting Boslax (Reply 9):
Delta is too smart to serve a market that has no long term potential of financial return.

Delta would not have built up the hub operations to the level that they have at SLC, if they did not have plans for International routes from there since International routes are such a big part of their restructuring program.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:25 pm

The thing about a SLC-CDG service is that there would really need to be a lot of O&D between that city pair for it to be overwhelmingly successful, and I don't think there is.

Even if SLC-CDG were to start, key markets like LON, FRA, AMS, FCO, BRU, etc. would still require a connection somewhere. In that sense, passengers going to these and other destinations can just as easily connect in JFK, ATL, or CVG. And you might mention the case of smaller communities in the Mountain States that might gain easier access to Europe, but again, that isn't necessarily the case because anywhere other than CDG would still require at least two connections.

We may be surprised in the next few weeks, but I doubt DL would launch this route given the remaining untapped potential in Europe and Africa. With all the expansion lately, they're starting to run short of 767 capacity. That remaining precious capacity will be put somewhere in Europe that can generate higher yields than SLC.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:11 pm

It's too bad the US-UK is not open skies, because I think the SLC community would be better off with London service instead of Paris. The local SLC-London market has 37,500 annual O&D passengers as compared to 17,990 Paris O&D. The SLC - London route would have a better chance of long term success and would not require the $6 million that Delta demands.

The concept of community based incentives seems so seedy. I know it's all the rage now and the economic benefits of new nonstop service are well documented. I just think it sets a dangerous precedent for a community since once you pay a carrier millions of dollars, every other carrier that looks at your market will demand the same.

By the way, I noticed in one of the recent articles about the SLC/Delta meeting, they listed the participants. I did not see the Mayor of SLC listed. Do you think Rocky is a little miffed he was not part of these meetings?
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 1:39 pm

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 8):
Good luck SLC, I don't see it anytime soon!

SLC has a better chance than PIT for ANY transatlantic service. SLC is a full-fledged hub, PIT is not, nor will it be for anyone anytime soon. Bayer tried to create an incentive-based proposal for PIT-FRA and it fell through. That is the only way transatlantic service will return, period. It has been discussed through and through.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:23 pm

Quoting Boslax (Reply 12):
It's too bad the US-UK is not open skies, because I think the SLC community would be better off with London service instead of Paris. The local SLC-London market has 37,500 annual O&D passengers as compared to 17,990 Paris O&D. The SLC - London route would have a better chance of long term success and would not require the $6 million that Delta demands.

You're VERY right. A DL SLC-LGW flight would work MUCH better than SLC-CDG, all the SkyTeam connectivity aside. But that said, three are high O&D numbers between SLC and Europe's major hubs which lend SLC to be under the scope for future service.

Quoting Boslax (Reply 12):
The concept of community based incentives seems so seedy. I know it's all the rage now and the economic benefits of new nonstop service are well documented. I just think it sets a dangerous precedent for a community since once you pay a carrier millions of dollars, every other carrier that looks at your market will demand the same.

It's the newest form of corporate welfare. Unlike Europe, the U.S. does not routinely subsidize air carriers except for small rural service communities that would be adversely impacted with out air service.

Quoting Boslax (Reply 12):
Do you think Rocky is a little miffed he was not part of these meetings?

Rocky has decided not to seek a third term next year, so I think that more than anything is why he wasn't involved.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:55 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
What I think Roy Williams is saying that SLC isn't quite ready to accommodate such flights yet, and some significant airport improvements MUST be made before such flights can be offered by DL. Despite what many naysayers here on a.net have said, the market demography is here for SLC to have such flights, just the lack of physical facilities.
I think this is just Delta's way of telling SLC: "If you prepare for it and build it; it will come."

Connection service to Europe from SEA, PDX, LAX, SAN, OAK, and SJC among others would be rather palatable.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 15):
Connection service to Europe from SEA, PDX, LAX, SAN, OAK, and SJC among others would be rather palatable.

SEA: Very Good, but proximity to YVR hurts it for some possibilities.
PDX: To close to SEA and YVR, but LH is working
OAK: Much too close to SFO
SJC: Ditto above
SAN: Too short of a runway, and too many NIMBY's fighting the proposed move to Miramar.
LAX, SFO, YVR: The prime markets for Pacific entry to the North American west coast.
The bottom line for SLC is that they are much more removed from DEN, PHX and LAS than any of the above communities and catchment areas. They are also a major hub for DL.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:18 pm

connectivity at SLC due to AF more than makes up for the larger size of the London market. Even if DL could fly SLC-LHR but w/o a partner hub there, SLC-CDG would still do better. CDG is an enormously powerful hub.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:38 pm

Agree that CDG is a powerful hub. However, compare the London O&D vs. Paris O&D in the potential markets that would flow thru SLC. The London demand combined is nearly 3 times larger than Paris. And even though very little traffic if any would be connecting beyond LGW, this difference in behind traffic out weighs the beyond Paris advantage.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:04 am

Well regardless, the timeline for 2007 service has already passed. If they were to launch service next summer, it would need to be announced now, and cleared at the IATA scheduling conference in November. Trans-Atlantic routes are generally announced 6 months in advance to generate enough PR, advertising, etc. to gauge advanced bookings. Plus, as said, aircraft availability is a major issue for next summer.

When DL announces SLC-CDG (probably summer seasonal initially), it will be done well in advance in order to generate enough PR.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
SLC lacks the terminal space for such flights (although some will say the current International gates in the D Concourse will work for now). They do fine with the Mexican and Canadian flights but to Europe? Not ready for such. Further; they also lack a long enough runway to allow a fully laden DL 763ER to depart without weight restrictions during the heat of the height of the summer when temps are typically 100+ F (39+ C).

SLC does have large enough customs facilities to handle such flights to Europe. The facilities were also recently expanded to allow three flights at a time. There are many airports with smaller custom facilities with wide-body trans-oceanic service.

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 5):
I think it has more to do with DL lacking the aircraft to do the route, as they have a commitment to additional international flying from JFK and ATL. In 2008 DL will begin to receive new 737-800s and 777s, which will allow for aircraft repositioning which would, in turn, allow for SLC-CDG.

I agree with this being one of the reasons. In addition, there is simply not enough time to get government approval for the route, market it, and sell seats in time for Summer 2007.

Bottom line is it WILL happen, just not likely in 2007. I am very confident the route would be successful. There is strong O/D from SLC-Europe, while not as strong as other cities, SLC more than makes up for with connecting passengers. Delta has expressed its interest, but needs more time.

On a side note, the new SLC-MEX and SLC-GDL have been available to book for less than a month and the flights are selling seats quite well. There are a few flights in December that are already oversold.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 20):
SLC does have large enough customs facilities to handle such flights to Europe. The facilities were also recently expanded to allow three flights at a time. There are many airports with smaller custom facilities with wide-body trans-oceanic service.

It still SUCKS when compared to DEN, ATL or SFO. While I doubt SLC will ever see the trans-oceanic traffic those three see, it still could be improved substantially.
But the runway issue is something the SLC Department of Airports had better address and do it soon. 12,000' just won't cut it for a fully laden 763ER to get off the ground during a hot July day. Too many reduce the weight by eliminating the cargo will not make any route from SLC to Europe profitable.

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 20):
Bottom line is it WILL happen, just not likely in 2007. I am very confident the route would be successful. There is strong O/D from SLC-Europe, while not as strong as other cities, SLC more than makes up for with connecting passengers. Delta has expressed its interest, but needs more time.

Very much agreed, it isn't a matter of IF but WHEN. Given the growth of this market and hub it is coming soon.

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 20):
On a side note, the new SLC-MEX and SLC-GDL have been available to book for less than a month and the flights are selling seats quite well. There are a few flights in December that are already oversold.

That is very good news to show that Mexico has more of a market than just the beach resort cities; PVR, SJD, MZT or CUN. Service to MEX and GDL will be an overall winner and work in the Mountain Time Zone in a place other than DEN or PHX.
Lets see if DL looks at seasonal service to some Caribbean resorts or cruise hubs for winter 2007-2008 like SJU, MBJ or perhaps even PUJ or POP.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 20):
SLC does have large enough customs facilities to handle such flights to Europe. The facilities were also recently expanded to allow three flights at a time. There are many airports with smaller custom facilities with wide-body trans-oceanic service.

That is for darn sure. I went thru Memphis' customs facilities after the KL/NW AMS flight arrived and it was absolutely ridiculous. We were so far back in the line after arriving from MBJ that we were waiting on the stairs down to the customs area.

Quoting Jkudall (Reply 20):
Bottom line is it WILL happen, just not likely in 2007. I am very confident the route would be successful. There is strong O/D from SLC-Europe, while not as strong as other cities, SLC more than makes up for with connecting passengers. Delta has expressed its interest, but needs more time.

Yeah that pretty much seems like a given at this point. It will definitely be interesting to see whether it has a serious adverse affect on CVG-CDG.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:00 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 16):
SEA: Very Good, but proximity to YVR hurts it for some possibilities.

Maybe for Asia flights but not transatlantic...is AF looking at YVR, no they are not, are they looking at SEA? Yes they are.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 23):
Maybe for Asia flights but not transatlantic...is AF looking at YVR, no they are not,

Due to Canada's bilateral agreement with France more than anything. AF goes into YUL and YYZ, but not out west. BA flys LHR to SEA-TAC and they do great, they also fly LHR-YVR and do fine. As for the Asia flights, you see many more Asian flag carriers at YVR than SEA-TAC.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:47 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 24):
Due to Canada's bilateral agreement with France more than anything. AF goes into YUL and YYZ, but not out west. BA flys LHR to SEA-TAC and they do great, they also fly LHR-YVR and do fine. As for the Asia flights, you see many more Asian flag carriers at YVR than SEA-TAC.

I know about the asian flights and I agree with you there, however, you made it sound like European carriers were giving preference to YVR over SEA, which they are not.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:16 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 16):
SEA: Very Good, but proximity to YVR hurts it for some possibilities.
PDX: To close to SEA and YVR, but LH is working
OAK: Much too close to SFO
SJC: Ditto above
SAN: Too short of a runway, and too many NIMBY's fighting the proposed move to Miramar.

SLCUT777, he said connecting flights which would mean something like a 737 with containerised luggage would arrive from one of the above cities and park next to a bigger airplane at SLC that is already fueled and half-full of SLC O/D traffic. The passengers would change planes, the luggage containers would move from the smaller plane to the bigger plane, and if everything goes good the stop would be 30 minutes or less...

SAN and PDX would be perfect candidates for a connecting flight because SEA and LAX are quite a drive from those cities. You are probably correct about OAK and SJC as people will avoid plane changes, BUT SFO can easily add an hour drive time, plus parking hassles for the SJC people, so SJC could work as a connecting flight -- especially if a RJ was used. The number for O/D traffic quoted above, 18,000 per year on SLC-CDG, only works out to 49 pax's per day, so SLC would need connecting flights to make the CDG flight work and SAN would be a great candidate because it is a two hour drive to LAX, and SAN could almost make this route work almost on its own if it had a longer runway.
 
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting EVA777SEA (Reply 25):
however, you made it sound like European carriers were giving preference to YVR over SEA, which they are not.

As I pointed out, BA serves both and it works great. AF would likely DO BOTH, but because of a ludicrous bilateral agreement between Canada and France, they can't. Both YVR and SEA have great terminal facilities, although the runway setup at YVR is logistically better.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 26):
SJC could work as a connecting flight -- especially if a RJ was used.

 checkmark  I actually think an MD-90 or 738 works best between SJC and SLC.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 26):
SAN could almost make this route work almost on its own if it had a longer runway.

SAN lost BA service to LGW due to this issue thanks to all of the NIMBY's there who don't want a bigger airport or relocated facility  banghead ! But that's a whole different argument for another thread.
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RE: SLC-CDG/LGW On Delta Unlikely Until 2008

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:20 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 27):
SAN lost BA service to LGW due to this issue thanks to all of the NIMBY's there who don't want a bigger airport or relocated facility banghead ! But that's a whole different argument for another thread.

SAN lost the service to LHR because yields sucked not because of NIMBY's. While BA was able to fill the back of the aircraft, they had a difficult time attracting enough first/business passengers to make the route work.
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