B2443
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NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:57 pm

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art.../20061005/OPINION01/610050308/1008

Detroit News Editorial reasoning:
1) NW's Asia experience
2) DTW facility

NW's reasoning:

"At the end of the day, this is going to be based on economic and public benefit," says Andrea Fisher Newman, senior vice president of government affairs for Northwest. "I think we accomplish that better than anyone."

I don't think many at a.net have give NW any hope in getting the non-stop authority...Is NW talking "non-sense"?
 
azjubilee
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:07 pm

No, the armchair quarterbacks at airliners.net are talking "non-sense." Let's not forget that NWA flew both PEK and SHA nonstop from DTW in the past. Due to SARS and 9/11 the routes became uneconomical. Now in a different environment NWA can make it work again and most definitely has the where-with-all to do it and do it well.






AZJ

[Edited 2006-10-05 16:13:34]
 
dtwclipper
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:07 pm

Quoting B2443 (Thread starter):
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art.../20061005/OPINION01/610050308/1008

Detroit News Editorial reasoning:
1) NW's Asia experience
2) DTW facility

NW's reasoning:

"At the end of the day, this is going to be based on economic and public benefit," says Andrea Fisher Newman, senior vice president of government affairs for Northwest. "I think we accomplish that better than anyone."

I don't think many at a.net have give NW any hope in getting the non-stop authority...Is NW talking "non-sense"?

First of all, I would love to see Detroit/NW get the route.

Secondly, this is the Detroit News speaking, I would expect the same spin from Houston, Newark, Dallas, and Chicago papers regarding their respective hub airlines, not really news of any kind here.
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boslax
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:23 pm

NW has the authority to operate the route right now, but they choose to use their authority to serve China from Tokyo. There are always behind the scenes lobbying efforts in these route cases and sometimes the route that benefits the most people and creates the largest economic benefits does not win. Cheer leading at its best from the Detroit Free Press.
 
JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:44 pm

I think that NW will do very very well if they get the route. What they said in the article makes sense. I know that when I have flown CO, I have had to make a double connection from CLE-ERW before reaching the destination. When I fly NW, I just connect through DTW and am on my way.

By far, IMO, the Northwest World Gateway is one of the most impressive hubs I have been through. It is not that hard to navigate through and easy to get from point a to point b
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LH417AF025
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:58 pm

personally i think that in terms of economics and most importantly polictical benefit, united has it in the bag. its the politicians that are going to decide. UA offering the route from our nations capital, nonstop to one of the worlds most booming economies i think makes them kind of have it in the bag.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:21 am

The arguement can be made that if this route was so important to Detroit, NW airlines and the travelling public, they could launch it tomorrow. They have the rights to do so - they could easily dedicate their NRT-PEK frequency to Detroit. The same logic applies to UA - they could launch IAD-PEK tomorrow if they wanted. And I wouldn't be surprised if either (or both) will if they are not selected in the current round of China frequencies.

I still believe the decision will come down between AA and CO...
 
boslax
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:27 am

United currently holds the most China route rights with Northwest a close second. If the USDOT is looking to even the playing field, then its between American and Continental.
 
ord
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 6):
The arguement can be made that if this route was so important to Detroit, NW airlines and the travelling public, they could launch it tomorrow. They have the rights to do so - they could easily dedicate their NRT-PEK frequency to Detroit. The same logic applies to UA - they could launch IAD-PEK tomorrow if they wanted.

AA could also launch DFW-PEK tomorrow. Simply shift their flight from ORD. Same thing for CO. The point is UA, AA or CO would have to sacrifice a current USA-China flight to start a new one. There would be no net gain of nonstop USA-China service.

NW, on the other hand, could start a USA-China flight by shifting a Tokyo-China flight. That would greatly benefit USA-China travel by increasing nonstop options, but NW chooses not to do so. NW is not helping nonstop travel between the USA and China because they choose not to use their rights on nonstops from the USA.
 
commavia
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:06 am

Of course they're confident. So was American about getting China in '05, and Delta in '06. If Northwest wasn't confident, then what are they in business for? The reality, though, of course, is that Northwest probably has about the slightest chance of all four of actually getting the authority because, as others have already said, they already have triple the frequencies of American and Continental, and already "waste" their authorities -- for lack of a better word -- by using them for Tokyo-China flights instead of nonstop U.S.-China flights.
 
unitednrt
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting ORD" class=quote target=_blank>ORD (Reply 8):

AA could also launch DFW-PEK tomorrow.

The route is not transferable IIRC. It'll stay ORD-PVG.
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MAH4546
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:16 am

Quoting ORD" class=quote target=_blank>ORD (Reply 8):
AA could also launch DFW-PEK tomorrow. Simply shift their flight from ORD. Same thing for CO. The point is UA, AA or CO would have to sacrifice a current USA-China flight to start a new one. There would be no net gain of nonstop USA-China service.

No, they can't. US-China routes are no longer transferable, and, IIRC, NW's routes are only transferable in that they just have to be direct or non-stop from Detroit.
a.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:45 am

I wish the new China route was at MSP.  Sad How come NW proposed the route to be from DTW-Shangai?
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incitatus
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 9):
Of course they're confident. So was American about getting China in '05, and Delta in '06.

Any vice president of a large corporation can state they are confident without being so. That was taught in the MBA, or in this case, law school.  wink 

If Northwest's leadership is indeed confident they will get a route award to China it shows they have difficulty looking cooly into their own position in competitive situations.
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dtwclipper
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 12):
How come NW proposed the route to be from DTW-Shangai?

Oh, I don't know, perhaps the Billion dollar investment in the Worldgateway!


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QFSYD744
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 14):
Oh, I don't know, perhaps the Billion dollar investment in the Worldgateway!

DFW spent as much as DTW, and they have what to show for it?

DEN spent as much as DTW, and they have what to show for it?

Northwest Airlines has been flying to Peking, Canton, and Shanghai daily from Narita. Why should they be given Detroit nonstop to China in addition to what they already have? As much as I enjoy Northwest Airlines. I think they are presuming a bit to much. The strongest applications would seem to be United Airlines, and American Airlines . Both airlines are offering service in markets without service to China and a strong demand for both O/D and transit. How does DTW compare to DFW, and IAD for O/D?
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dtwclipper
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:35 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 15):
Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 14):
Oh, I don't know, perhaps the Billion dollar investment in the Worldgateway!

DFW spent as much as DTW, and they have what to show for it?

DEN spent as much as DTW, and they have what to show for it?

Northwest Airlines has been flying to Peking, Canton, and Shanghai daily from Narita. Why should they be given Detroit nonstop to China in addition to what they already have? As much as I enjoy Northwest Airlines. I think they are presuming a bit to much. The strongest applications would seem to be United Airlines, and American Airlines . Both airlines are offering service in markets without service to China and a strong demand for both O/D and transit. How does DTW compare to DFW, and IAD for O/D?

The question was why DTW over MSP, nothing more nothing less. DTW is the international gateway for NW.
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102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:56 am

The DoT is one of the most political institutions in the U.S. government, so I wouldn’t be surprised one bit if NW was awarded the route. There’s no doubt that on paper, CO has the best proposal. No other application comes close. Period. But that being the case CO EWR PVG route was denied last go around for no other reason than politics. So who’s to say it won’t happen again this time?

Last go around the DoT was put in a tough political situation, they knew that CO’s EWR PEK and EWR PVG routes were superior but awarding both routes to CO would mean that this go around only CO, UA and NW would be eligible to apply for a new authority.

Imagine if CO only had to compete against UA and NW this go around? CO likely would have proposed IAH PVG service. IMO the DoT probably would have awarded such a route, but the implications for AA and DL in 2008 would have been significant.

All I’m saying is to think that the worst application will be so easily denied is a bit naive.
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:00 am

CO and AA. NW has no chance at all. Not even a little. For the reason that keeps coming up: They can serve the route tomorrow, they choose not to. Same with UA. AA provides a great feed through DFW and CO provides point to point to NYC. I will be personally shocked if CO or AA doesnt get it. But of all the airlines NW has the least chance.
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commavia
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:04 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 17):
There’s no doubt that on paper, CO has the best proposal. No other application comes close. Period.

Um, yes, there is doubt, and for people other than you, there are other applications that "come close." Period.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 19):
Um, yes, there is doubt, and for people other than you, there are other applications that "come close." Period

CO is proposing connecting the most populace city in the U.S. with the most populace city in China and connecting the business capital of the world with the business capital of China.

Please explain how any other application comes close?
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 20):

CO is proposing connecting the most populace city in the U.S. with the most populace city in China and connecting the business capital of the world with the business capital of China.

Please explain how any other application comes close?

Multiple reasons why CO's application is weaker than others. Among them are that it is of minimal benefit to travelers outside the East Coast and parts of the interior Eastern US, that New York City already has multiple daily non-stops to China and Hong Kong, including non-stop service to Shanghai starting this winter on China Eastern, and that CO already offers two daily Newark-China flights, to Beijing and Hong Kong.

That being said, all the applications have their weak points, but CO is far from being a shoe-in. I say it's AA or UA. Until recently I would have said AA or CO, but UA's application has too much political connection to not be a strong contender.
a.
 
commavia
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 20):
Please explain how any other application comes close?

Those that offer:

a) a new gateway to China
b) a new Chinese market for a weaker U.S. carrier
c) service in a market that has no other nonstop flights
d) domestic distribution within China
e) the first ever nonstop link to a rapidly-developing/globalizing region of the U.S.
f) service to the sight of the Olympics coming up in less than two years
g) service to the second largest hub on earth
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
Multiple reasons why CO's application is weaker than others. Among them are that it is of minimal benefit to travelers outside the East Coast and parts of the interior Eastern US, that New York City already has multiple daily non-stops to China and Hong Kong, including non-stop service to Shanghai starting this winter on China Eastern, and that CO already offers two daily Newark-China flights, to Beijing and Hong Kong.

Would you not agree that the largest O&D market in the U.S. is being underserved by not having any U.S. flag service to PVG?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
Until recently I would have said AA or CO, but UA's application has too much political connection to not be a strong contender.

Are you referring to House Speaker Hastert? The same guy who’s about to be ousted from congress.

[Edited 2006-10-06 01:31:19]
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 20):
CO is proposing connecting the most populace city in the U.S. with the most populace city in China and connecting the business capital of the world with the business capital of China.

Please explain how any other application comes close?

O&D is only one side of the arguement. The feed is POOR at EWR compared to DFW. Service at EWR neglects so much of the country. I will definately acknowledge that EWR will produce the most O&D, but there are other factors to consider as well.

MU is also starting service from JFK-PVG. While its true that the DOT doesnt care about foreign carriers, but that doesnt change the fact that the route will get served. If CO get that route, there will be two nonstops from NYC to PVG and maybe the DOT thinks that route to China will be better elsewhere.
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102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:42 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):

a) a new gateway to China

This is a good point. But unfortunately your only good point.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
b) a new Chinese market for a weaker U.S. carrier

Weaker carrier? Isn’t AA the largest carrier on Earth?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
e) the first ever nonstop link to a rapidly-developing/globalizing region of the U.S.

For all the globalizing you speak of the DFW area doesn’t have a Chinese Consulate, well not many consulates at all.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
f) service to the sight of the Olympics coming up in less than two years

Why would the DoT give a rats a** about the Olympics?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
g) service to the second largest hub on earth

DL proposed China service via the largest hub on Earth but that didn’t help them very much.
 
commavia
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 25):
Weaker carrier? Isn’t AA the largest carrier on Earth?

I was referring to weaker carriers in the U.S.-China market, which includes both AA and CO.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 25):

For all the globalizing you speak of the DFW area doesn’t have a Chinese Consulate, well not many consulates at all.

I was referring to the southern United States, not just the Metroplex. The south currently has no nonstop service to China, while every other region of the country -- the west coast, midwest and northeast -- do.

Sure, you might say, "there's a reason for that -- the south doesn't generate enough demand." However, this falls flat because the south is one of the most rapidly-growing areas in the U.S. in both economic activity and population and one of the most open and welcoming to global commerce and trade. New York is still the capital of the world -- I'm not disputing that -- but economically, the southern U.S. is far, far more dynamic than the north.

Not to mention that D/FW was recently rated as the world's best cargo airport, and cargo capacity there is booming and rapidly expanding. Texas is now the largest exporter among all 50 states.

102IAHexpress, please, just get real. Just because you hold a certain opinion doesn't mean that debate ceases. You may think Continental has the strongest bid -- fine, no problem, you're completely entitled to that opinion. However, there are hundreds, upon hundreds, of thousands of people throughout the U.S. who think there is at least one other U.S. carrier who deserves the U.S.-China frequences in 2007 more than Continental. So, obviously, it's not as simple as you saying, "No other application comes close. Period."
 
Zone1
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
UA's application has too much political connection to not be a strong contender.

I agree. Mike Boyd has his chips on UA winning this round because of the politics involved.
/// U N I T E D
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 26):
You may think Continental has the strongest bid -- fine, no problem, you're completely entitled to that opinion. However, there are hundreds, upon hundreds, of thousands of people throughout the U.S. who think there is at least one other U.S. carrier who deserves the U.S.-China frequences in 2007 more than Continental. So, obviously, it's not as simple as you saying, "No other application comes close. Period."

I think you’re not getting what I’m saying. It shouldn’t be about opinions it should be about facts. And in this matter the facts clearly have CO as the hands down choice.

Often times when it comes to politics and in particular transportation appropriations, opinions instead of facts win the day. This past year congress passed the largest transportation bill ever, filled with so much pork it made me sick. And I have no doubt that some had very favorable opinions about spending hundreds of millions of dollars on bridge to no where but what facts supported such a big appropriation at the expense of other regions of the country?

Bringing it back to this transportation matter, what facts would warrant the largest O&D market in the U.S. to be denied at the expense of DET, IAD or DFW?

[Edited 2006-10-06 02:09:11]
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:09 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 23):
Would you not agree that the largest O&D market in the U.S. is being underserved by not having any U.S. flag service to PVG?

No, I would not, because it has non-stop service to China already, and various cities in Asia, on US and Asian airlines. Also, Los Angeles is America's largest O&D market.

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 23):
Are you referring to House Speaker Hastert? The same guy who’s about to be ousted from congress.

No, I am referring to the fact that a non-stop between DC and Beijing is going to have strong political clout from just about anybody who is anybody in DC.
a.
 
commavia
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 28):
It shouldn’t be about opinions it should be about facts. And in this matter the facts clearly have CO as the hands down choice.

Do you honestly not hear what your words sound like?

Indeed it should be about "facts." The problem, however, is that you are only picking "facts" that selectively support your biased opinion.

Sure, it's a "fact" that New York is America's largest city. Sure, it's a "fact" that Continental has a big hub there.

But it's also a "fact" that the South doesn't have any flights to China, while the New York area will soon have 11 per week, not counting Hong Kong.

It's also a "fact" that American at D/FW is the second largest hub on earth, more than double the size of Continental's Newark hub.

Again, you can keep saying "facts" all you want -- but the point is that it's not "just about facts," but about which facts.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
No, I would not, because it has non-stop service to China already, and various cities in Asia, on US and Asian airlines

Using that logic, do you think it was wrong of the DoT to award AA the ORD PVG route?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 29):
No, I am referring to the fact that a non-stop between DC and Beijing is going to have strong political clout from just about anybody who is anybody in DC.

Sorry, I still don’t know who you’re referring to specifically. Could you elaborate on the anybody who is anybody? Do you think President Bush favors UA IAD PEK service? How about Sen. Clinton?
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 30):
It's also a "fact" that American at D/FW is the second largest hub on earth, more than double the size of Continental's Newark hub.

Again, you can keep saying "facts" all you want -- but the point is that it's not "just about facts," but about which facts.

Agreed. The facts would suggest that AA’s DFW hub is better at serving markets like Wichita Falls, Texas and Shreveport Louisiana than say CO’s EWR hub, but what facts suggest that those markets and markets like those are relevant to the DoT decision making process?
 
BigGSFO
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 31):
Do you think President Bush favors UA IAD PEK service? How about Sen. Clinton?

President Bush probably still calls it "Peking" and can't find it on a map.  Wink

No doubt the lobbiests are hitting the Hill aggressively over this one. Obviously those representing Dallas/Metroplex, AA (an WN which isn't relevant to this thread) did their jobs since they got Wright pushed through. Nevermind if it gets implemented, my point is, Texas still has a lot of clout in DC. I might be naive on this one, but I still think AA has the strongest shot. We all shall see though...
 
LAXdude1023
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:45 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 33):
President Bush probably still calls it "Peking" and can't find it on a map.

HAHAHA!!! Loving it!!!

Both CO and AA have strong arguements. To say that CO has the best arguement hands down is not right. They have a very good shot and have a good arguement, but so does AA. DFW provides better service to the some areas of the South, certain western areas, Mexico and other Latin American Markets.

To say that CO has the best arguement hands down is WRONG!!! They have a good arguement, but not the best hands down.
It is what it is...
 
commavia
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 32):
The facts would suggest that AA’s DFW hub is better at serving markets like Wichita Falls, Texas and Shreveport Louisiana than say CO’s EWR hub, but what facts suggest that those markets and markets like those are relevant to the DoT decision making process?

Once again, the concept of "facts" seems to break down whenever you type.

Sure, D/FW would offer connections to Wichita Falls and Shreveport. It would also offer immensely more convenient and faster connections to cities like Houston, Austin, San Antonio, Fayeteville, etc. Ever heard of those cities?

The bottom line is really this, 102 -- you think whatever you want. I could honestly not care less -- you're fully entitled to your opinion and I have no intention of trying to change it. All I'm saying is that it is really scary that you continually repeat this "facts" line about how, clearly, obviously, without any debate, without any question, Continental's application is the best, and the "facts" support it. The reality, of course, regardless of whether you can see it or not, is that there are other people -- here on A.net and hundreds of thousands more in this great country you and I both share -- that have a different opinion than you.

And, 102, I assure you -- they are just as certain of their "facts" as you are of yours.

As this has become boring and a complete waste of my time, this will be my last post on that issue.
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 31):
Using that logic, do you think it was wrong of the DoT to award AA the ORD PVG route?

No, because it was stronger than the other applications at that time.
a.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:58 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 35):
As this has become boring and a complete waste of my time, this will be my last post on that issue.

Commavia, I tip my hat to you; it takes a big man to bow out of a debate with courtesy and respect.
 
102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:11 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):
No, because it was stronger than the other applications at that time.

So, 14X weekly ORD PVG was better than 0X weekly EWR PVG?
 
luv2fly
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:13 am

Myself I see CO or NW getting the route. Though in time we will find out just who wins this race.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:18 am

Just out of sheer morbid curiousity, does anybody know what each airline's timings of their flights are going to be? I could find for AA and NW, but not for CO and UA based on their applications (actually, CO didn't even submit an application, which I find TRULY humorous)
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102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 40):
(actually, CO didn't even submit an application, which I find TRULY humorous)

Actually they filed a petition for reconsideration.

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p86/405608.pdf
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 41):
Actually they filed a petition for reconsideration.

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p86/4...8.pdf

Good catch...I remembered that that filing included the specify-route clause (bullet three), but didn't realize that that included the application (or petition for reconsideration) as well...
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MAH4546
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 38):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 36):
No, because it was stronger than the other applications at that time.

So, 14X weekly ORD PVG was better than 0X weekly EWR PVG?

It had more to do with that.

The 14 frequencies that were up for grabs for 2005 and 2006 were up to grabs to new entrant carriers. DOT was not going to award both entries to the same airline and pass up the oppurtunity to open US-China to four US airlines.
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PVG
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 1):
Let's not forget that NWA flew both PEK and SHA nonstop from DTW in the past. Due to SARS and 9/11 the routes became uneconomical.

Outrageously short-term thinking on NWA's part. Think of the money they'd be printing these last 2 years or so if they still had routes (although I understand that part of the reason they stopped the PEK flights was that they had to share so much with Air China that it wasn't worth it?). The connection through DTW to the east coast was by far the best available connection at the time. You'd get on the plane at 9am in Beijing, and if you were a little lucky, could be home for lunch in New York on the same day.
 
N501US
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:04 am

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 15):
DEN spent as much as DTW, and they have what to show for it?

A great baggage handling system?
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102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:06 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 43):
DOT was not going to award both entries to the same airline and pass up the oppurtunity to open US-China to four US airlines.

I can buy into the DoT’s political assessment, but why 14x weekly ORD PVG instead of 7x weekly EWR PEK and 7x weekly ATL PEK (it might have been ATL PVG I don’t remember)?

Why duplicate service at the expense of opening a new southern gateway via ATL?
And if DL’s fortress hub in the South with massive feed was denied, would it not be inconsistent of the DoT to award a China route authority to AA’s relatively smaller Southern hub?
 
MAH4546
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:09 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 46):

I can buy into the DoT�s political assessment, but why 14x weekly ORD PVG instead of 7x weekly EWR PEK and 7x weekly ATL PEK (it might have been ATL PVG I don�t remember)?

Because Delta's application was weaker than AA's. The Chicago market is significantly larger than Atlanta, and provides better hub connectivity than Delta's hub on a national scale, and, with so little US-China service, back then it was actually a slighlt plus to compete head-to-head with United, because it created at least one US-China route, which is arguably one of the, if not the most, important, with two US airlines.

Also, a lot changes between 2004 and 2007, and both AA's Dallas and DL's Atlanta hub are in much better positions for China service today than in the past.
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102IAHexpress
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:34 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 47):
The Chicago market is significantly larger than Atlanta, and provides better hub connectivity than Delta's hub on a national scale,

I agree with that.

But assuming the DoT makes a similar assessment this time, would you not also agree that the Newark/New York market is significantly larger than the Dallas, Detroit or Washington DC markets?
And assuming the route to China is a polar one, does EWR not offer better hub connectivity on a national scale, than say DFW, DTW or IAD?

[Edited 2006-10-06 04:42:57]
 
isitsafenow
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RE: NW Confident In Getting The China Route

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:16 pm

The route will go to the carrier that is "sickest" financially.
Watch and heed.
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