utapao
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United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:35 am

Reuters Article

Quote:
United argues that JetBlue's request, which was filed with the Federal Aviation Administration last week, doesn't follow proper procedures and should be denied, according to a filing on Wednesday with the FAA.

"JetBlue must operate in accordance with the regulatory rules of the road, just as all other carriers must do. Because its current request ignores those rules, it must be denied," United says in the filing.
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N328KF
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:37 am

This is a shocker; block B6 on a technicality. Sounds like AA vs. WN at LUV.
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atrude777
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:38 am

and what rules would this be that B6 is not following according to United?

Alex
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SLCUT2777
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):
and what rules would this be that B6 is not following according to United?

Oh! Mr Tilton and UA don't want any more competition at ORD since he won't get as big a bonus in overly bloated stock options!  sarcastic   gnasher 
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mymiles2go
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Atrude777 (Reply 2):
and what rules would this be that B6 is not following according to United?

Alex

Seems like that's probably in thier filing - which I'm sure is public and could be looked up.

In the meantime, I'm not sure why anyone is surprised. This is business - not "let's all play nicely in the sandbox and share the tonka trucks".
 
scaledesigns
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:04 am

The problem UA has is that the slots JETBLUE will be getting are part of the
slots UA/AA gave up to make things less congested at ORD.Now the FAA is giving them to another airline to allow competition?
I have no problem with Jetblue coming to ORD,but I also understand why UA and AA might be a little upset if they get the ex AA/UA slots.
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JetBlueAUS
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting Mymiles2go (Reply 4):
Seems like that's probably in thier filing - which I'm sure is public and could be looked up.

In the meantime, I'm not sure why anyone is surprised. This is business - not "let's all play nicely in the sandbox and share the tonka trucks".

Well, so much for free market competition?   

I understand why UA doesn't want another carrier at ORD, but at the same time, every business is trying to make money. Chicago is a vital market and it is a money maker for many airlines. JetBlue wants to take this oppurtunity to enter Chicago. I'm not at all surprised that UA filed these complaints though. Oh well - the best will thrive.

[Edited 2006-10-06 02:22:31]
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PanAm747
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:19 am

The Reuter's article is very lacking in details. We need more information to make our decision as to who has the better case.

Here's the solution: make ORD totally slot controlled. X number of take-offs and landings per day. period. Until massive runway and terminal improvements are made, capacity should match reality. Congressmen who fret about losing their district's RJ flights to ORD can make do with whatever is available. And no "grandfathering in" RJ routes like LGA - airlines get a certain amount each day, whether they use a 50-seat RJ or an A380.

No "voluntary" reductions - an outside, neutral force needs to make sure if a slot becomes available, everyone has an equal opportunity, be it an RJ, B6, or an A380 - so no one can claim "foul!!"

I still think if B6 was smart, they'd fly into Gary (GYY). Since virtually all of B6's traffic will be O&D, free parking would go over well, in addition to the fact that ORD congestion would be nonexistent.

If they're determined to do ORD and ORD only, I wish them luck. AA and UA will do everything they can to protect their turf!!
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mymiles2go
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:23 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 6):
I understand why UA doesn't want another carrier at ORD, but at the same time, every business is trying to make money. Chicago is a vital market and it is a money maker for many airlines. JetBlue wants to take this oppurtunity to enter Chicago. I'm not at all surprised that UA filed these complaints though. Oh well - the best will thrive.

Why don't they fly to MDW then?

I guess it comes down to your own statement about carriers trying to make money - that's all United is doing. When United gave up slots along with AA, they did so to free up congestion - not to allow JetBlue to wander on in and start making money. JetBlue would do the exact same thing if they were in the same position.
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:23 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
The Reuter's article is very lacking in details. We need more information to make our decision as to who has the better case.

Agreed. Anyone know what rules UA claims B6 is circumventing?
 
B6DC10
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:24 am

It's funny...if you read the filing, United doesn't have an opposition to B6 flying out of ORD...that is, as long as they pay for the slots from either UA or AA...I don't think anyone should be shocked by UA's opposition, but I doubt it will hold up.
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JetBlueAUS
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:29 am

Quoting Mymiles2go (Reply 8):
Why don't they fly to MDW then?

I guess it comes down to your own statement about carriers trying to make money - that's all United is doing. When United gave up slots along with AA, they did so to free up congestion - not to allow JetBlue to wander on in and start making money. JetBlue would do the exact same thing if they were in the same position.

B6 wants to expand in Chicago, and basically they stay away from WN like the black death. Which is definitely understandable... one reason why they aren't flying into MDW. UA is also trying to make money. However, so is B6. Besides UA doesn't even fly ORD-JFK. Its not going to affect them that much.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:36 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 9):
Agreed. Anyone know what rules UA claims B6 is circumventing?

If I recall correctly from the filing, it's something about the current version of the "slots" expiring in late-October, whereas jetBlue doesn't want to start their services until November. Basically, United is saying that jetBlue should wait until after that late-October date (I forget the exact date) and apply again.
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luv2fly
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I still think if B6 was smart, they'd fly into Gary (GYY). Since virtually all of B6's traffic will be O&D, free parking would go over well, in addition to the fact that ORD congestion would be nonexistent.

No body wants GYY, not even the people there.
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mymiles2go
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting JetBlueAUS (Reply 11):
Besides UA doesn't even fly ORD-JFK. Its not going to affect them that much.

Huh? JFK is coterminus with LGA and EWR. Of course ORD-JFK will cut into ORD-LGA. Since we're talking the low-cost crowd here the people are more likely to drive/train out of thier way to get a cheaper flight. Otherwise JetBlue's JFK hub would have failed long ago.
 
roseflyer
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 1):



This is a shocker; block B6 on a technicality. Sounds like AA vs. WN at LUV.

I don't think you can compare the two. United was cut down on flights in order to relieve congestion upon them being asked to. That obviously hurt their operations since it limited their flexibility, but the improvement was lower delays. By letting jetBlue come, more flights will come. The traffic levels will increase, and thus United only gets hurt. They have to cut down flights and open themselves to more competition in their biggest hub.

I'm a big fan of competition, but I can understand how this isn't fair to the incumbant. ORD is at capacity. MDW is pretty close to capacity and has gate issues, but there are airports in the vicinity of Chicago that would happily take on jetBlue. RFD, GYY and MKE would love new airlines. Some would go as far as offering profit guarantees and subsidies to get more service.
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Cactus739
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 9):
Agreed. Anyone know what rules UA claims B6 is circumventing?

Well, if you read this very recent thread on jetBlue asking for ORD slots, you'll see there's a link to United's filing with the DOT.
JetBlue Applies For Slots At O'Hare (by Charlipr Oct 4 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Here's a link to make it easier for you.

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p87/416545.pdf
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting Cactus739 (Reply 16):
you'll see there's a link to United's filing with the DOT.

Thanks very much. It's an interesting read and seems like UA's position is legitimate.
 
ca2ohHP
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting Scaledesigns (Reply 5):
The problem UA has is that the slots JETBLUE will be getting are part of the
slots UA/AA gave up to make things less congested at ORD.Now the FAA is giving them to another airline to allow competition?
I have no problem with Jetblue coming to ORD,but I also understand why UA and AA might be a little upset if they get the ex AA/UA slots.

I agree..almost. The last thing ORD needs is more congestion. Plus, why is Jetblue getting so far away from their low-cost business model? Wouldn't landing fees and user fees at any one of the alternate airports be lower?

You can bet that IF Jetblue at ORD ever comes to fruition, UA and AA will not stand back and watch.
 
tsaord
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:05 pm

Well if AA and UA gave up slots to easy congestion(which don't mean much when a storm barrels in lol) then B6 should wait untill ORD is complete with its expansion and renovations.
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B6DC10
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Luv2fly (Reply 13):
No body wants GYY, not even the people there.

***THIS JUST IN***

THE ENTIRE POPULATION OF GARY, INDIANA HAS MOVED TO AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION. APPARENTLY, ALL OF THE FREE PARKING SENT THEM RUNNING FOR THE HILLS....

I don't think that B6 is going into the Chicago market with the intent of only having 8 flights forever. I think that O&D traffic will only dominate this market in the beginning. Remember, connections are available through both JFK and LGB.
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ORDagent
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I still think if B6 was smart, they'd fly into Gary (GYY).

If you look at B6's cities they avoid secondary airports like the plague. They have a nice mix of leasure and business flyers. No widgit salesman from the hinterlands is going to fly into Gary. It's hard enough for many of them to even consider MDW which is a very nice facility!
 
Cactus739
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:38 pm

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 17):
Thanks very much. It's an interesting read and seems like UA's position is legitimate.

You're quite welcome. Their position is quite legit I'd have to say. I can honestly say I could care less if jetBlue got the slots they asked for or not, but they have to play by the rules. They aren't, so no slots for them. United says basically if they play by the rules they'll be "welcome".

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
I still think if B6 was smart, they'd fly into Gary (GYY).

You're entitled to your opinion of course. jetBlue thinks they're doing the right thing.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 7):
free parking would go over well

Score.
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SHUPirate1
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting ORDagent (Reply 21):
If you look at B6's cities they avoid secondary airports like the plague.

Long Beach, party of one, your table is ready, you'll be sitting with Hobby, party of one tonight.
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GoBlue
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:07 pm

United should be a little nervous, however B6 cannot compete with it internationally, nor can it compete on volume, but B6 can compete on inflight experience, and budget conscious consumers. For the few destinatinos that JetBlue will be able to serve from ORD to begin with United, can slowly figure out its plan of attack. AA is also at ORD, and somepeople forget about them vs. B6 at times.

However in a perfect world they will all run flights from ORD, and everyeone will make there revenue!
 
B6DC10
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:42 pm

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 23):
Long Beach, party of one, your table is ready, you'll be sitting with Hobby, party of one tonight.

Joining them would be Miss Oakland, with her children San Jose, Ontario, and Burbank. Sitting at the bar is Mr Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood.
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ORDagent
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RE: United Opposed JetBlue At ORD

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:41 am

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 23):
Long Beach, party of one, your table is ready, you'll be sitting with Hobby, party of one tonight

Point taken.

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