terryb99
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Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:15 am

Did not see this posted anywhere.

From this weeks SpeedNews;

AIRBUS dropped program to add winglets to A320s after analysis (both Airbus- and WINGLET TECHNOLOGIES-designed winglets were tested) showed benefits did not offset additional weight and required structural reinforcement.
 
SkepticAll
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:20 am

Will this decison affect JBU's desire to equip their new A320's with winglets or are these modifications being done "in-house" so to speak.

I think the A320 with those NG style winglets look very nice.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting SkepticAll (Reply 1):
I think the A320 with those NG style winglets look very nice.

So do I but sadly looking nice is not a factor that airlines consider when buying planes
 
grantcv
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting SkepticAll (Reply 1):
Will this decison affect JBU's desire to equip their new A320's with winglets or are these modifications being done "in-house" so to speak.

I don't think that an in-house retrofit by JetBlue is likely. I believe that the problem was a structural one, requiring strengthening of the wing to handle the winglets. This strengthening offset the benefits and also makes a retrofit that much more difficult and costly.

I wonder how this decision affects the earlier talk of a 5% improvement in the A320 through various upgrades. This seems to be a major setback towards that goal.
 
cricket
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:57 am

A question here - since winglets were always on the BBJ series on the 737NG's the NG's wings were always strong enough structurally to deal with the winglet mods, right?
A300B2/B4/6R, A313, A319/320/321, A333, A343, A388, 737-2/3/4/7/8/9, 747-3/4, 772/2E/2L/3, E170/190, F70, CR2/7, 146-3,
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting Cricket (Reply 5):
A question here - since winglets were always on the BBJ series on the 737NG's the NG's wings were always strong enough structurally to deal with the winglet mods, right?

EXACTLY. Airbus has a habit of building their a/c to the absolute minimum to meet specs. Thats why they had to cancel the winglets for the A320 and why they most likely will not be certified. Adding winglets adds extra stress to a wing and their wings are not strong enough to handle it. They break everytime. Same problem with the A380 and why they couldn't put winglets on that. They would have to strengthen the wing even more. Boeing on the other hand builds their a/c to exceed standards. The 741/2/3 had such a strong wing initially that when the 400 came out, they were able to add the extension and the winglet and still have a strong enough wing. The problem with the general public and people on here as that they base everything on orders. When it comes to building planes, Boeing builds them better. Airbus builds a weaker plane. That is why a large majority of Airbus's are leased and now owned. Companies dont have plans to keep them very long. A high up former engineer with northwest was in a meeting with my roommate during his internship and was saying that a 10 year old 737 has the same reliability as a brand new A320.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
ukair
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:26 am

This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

You couldn't be more wrong. Southwest doesn't spend money on fashion accessories. And why do you think Airbus puts "wingtip fences" on their A320s--to make them look fugly?

Quote:
Southwest said yesterday that an analysis showed the 8-foot-high winglets, which add about 5 feet to the airplane's total wingspan, will allow its 737-700s to fly up to 115 nautical miles farther and reduce fuel burn. Southwest said it expects to save an average of up to 92,000 gallons of fuel per plane per year.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/127079_air18.html

Quote:
After flight testing on a 737-800 showed they improved mileage by as much as 6 percent or more on long-range flight, Boeing decided to incorporate them as a standard feature on the business jet.

"This is going to give the 737 a substantial performance advantage over the Airbus A320, especially in high-altitude airports.

Planes with the winglet technology will need less power on take off, he said, and that means less noise. And because of the fuel savings, airlines can put less fuel on their planes and more paying passengers, Clark said.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/wing18.shtml

[Edited 2006-10-07 01:58:22]
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
katekebo
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
They break everytime.

What are you talking about?

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
The 741/2/3 had such a strong wing initially that when the 400 came out, they were able to add the extension and the winglet and still have a strong enough wing.

Wrong. The -400 has an entirely new wing.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
That is why a large majority of Airbus's are leased and now owned.

???????? Do you have any data to back up your statement or it's just your opinion.

I'm a strong Boeing supporter, but a preference for one manufacturer or another is not a justification to making factually incorrect statements.

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

They are evolving. Boeing raked wing tips are the latest evolution of the winglets.
 
TAP340
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
When it comes to building planes, Boeing builds them better. Airbus builds a weaker plane.

This is the typical difference between American engineering and European engineering. We optimize, you build large. Take the Dodge Viper for example: It has a 8.3 liters and produces 500hp!!! That is less hp per liter than my mom's Saab 9.5! Now take an European car with a similar engine: The Veyron. It has 8 liters and produces over 1000hp! That is the double! European optimization in a nut shell. In cars it is stupid, but in planes, as you have proven, it is worth the initial price.

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

What?!? They are an engineering feit! Reducing fuel burn without messing with the engine, and not much with center eing box/eing

BTW: Airbus is developing new technologies to compensate/complement the fences.

[Edited 2006-10-07 02:17:39]

[Edited 2006-10-07 02:20:10]

[Edited 2006-10-07 02:20:52]
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

Part of the problem for Airbus is that they already use fences to reach their goals. Boeing didn't use anything on the NG to match the Airbus for efficiency. So, adding the blended winglets gave them gains in efficiency over having nothing.

But for the A320, adding the winglets would only give them incremental gains over the fences, not as cost effective.

Further, from the pictures, Airbus looked to be working with smaller winglets, maybe to save weight and not have to add strengthening, but those didn't provide much benefit.

I never understood the small winglets in the pictures. Seemed like they were doing a half-assed job to just prove they don't work.

But Embraer, Boeing, Airbus and MD and others disagreed on other, non-A320 aircraft. Boeing is using the winglets to increase range on the 739ER over the 739, so if it were a fad, it would be detracting from range and Boeing would not be making it standard.

It's just that they don't work on the A320 in the way they were applied.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
Take the Dodge Viper for example: It has a 8.3 liters and produces 500hp!!! That is less hp per liter than my mom's Saab 9.5! Now take an European car with a similar engine: The Veyron. It has 8 liters and produces over 1000hp! That is the double! European optimization in a nut shell.

The Viper is made by Daimler Chrysler, a European company.  Smile

Seriously, you can't take an automobile example and extrapolate to airplanes.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
TAP340
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 12):
The Viper is made by Daimler Chrysler, a European company.

Seriously, you can't take an automobile example and extrapolate to airplanes.

True, but: "Completely redesigned a year ago, the Dodge Viper continues to symbolize extreme performance and extreme attitude. Blending brute power with classic yet outrageous styling, the Dodge Viper SRT-10 retains its title as the Ultimate American Sports Car - and as the icon of the Dodge brand."

But if you want to be pedantic: Shelby GT500 500hp in a 5.4L; M5 575hp in a 5L

Furthermore, I was not extrapolating to airplanes, I was just trying to make a point about the main difference between American and European engineering. Anyway, apreciated the comment!
 
2H4
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:36 am




Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

Total crap. If you think, in your opinion, that winglets are a passing fad, that's one thing. Professing this as fact, however, is absolutely ridiculous.



2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
We optimize, you build large.

How do you explain the size of the A380 wing then?
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
dank
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:43 am

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
Same problem with the A380 and why they couldn't put winglets on that. They would have to strengthen the wing even more.

I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the wingspan is already at 79.8m, putting regular wingtips on it would have not allowed the plane to fit into an 80m box.

cheers.
 
PVG
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
This is the typical difference between American engineering and European engineering. We optimize, you build large. Take the Dodge Viper for example: It has a 8.3 liters and produces 500hp!!! That is less hp per liter than my mom's Saab 9.5! Now take an European car with a similar engine: The Veyron. It has 8 liters and produces over 1000hp! That is the double! European optimization in a nut shell. In cars it is stupid, but in planes, as you have proven, it is worth the initial price.

A reasonable analogy IMHO!
 
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LTU932
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:46 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 9):
Wrong. The -400 has an entirely new wing.

How new? Granted, part of that could be the winglets and the wingbox with the current wing to body fairing which was introduced on late built -300s, but I don't see what's so new about the 744's wing? For example, it still retains the old slats (are those Kruger Flaps?) and the triple slotted flaps and doesn't have, what could be considered now as Boeing widebody standard, double slotted inboard and one slotted outboard flaps and the slats similar to those of the 767 or 777.
 
2H4
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:47 am




Quoting Dank (Reply 16):
I think it has a lot more to do with the fact that the wingspan is already at 79.8m, putting regular wingtips on it would have not allowed the plane to fit into an 80m box.

Actually, the primary reason for the A320-style wingtips is to reduce wing bending moments.



2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
Glom
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 9):
They are evolving. Boeing raked wing tips are the latest evolution of the winglets

Yes, yes. Raked wingtips are good. That's why all this talk about A350s and 787s is all stupid, when we know that aviation achieved perfection in 2002 with the rollout of the 777-300ER.
 
rj777
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:33 am

Not to turn this into another A vs. B war, but it looks like this is yet ANOTHER thing Boeing does better!
 
WMUPilot
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:38 am

RUMOR: B6 May Convert Some 320 Deliveries To 319's (by JerseyGuy Sep 25 2006 in Civil Aviation)

The word was out on flyertalk on the 25th of september and nobody believed it. Adds some credit to the fact that JetBlue knew about this before hand and is looking at 319s for transcon flights!
JetBlue - Bringing humanity back to air travel
 
manni
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
A high up former engineer with northwest was in a meeting with my roommate during his internship and was saying that a 10 year old 737 has the same reliability as a brand new A320.

Is that why he's a former NW engineer? I bet, the NW A320 fleet has become a lot more reliable since he left.  duck 
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
katekebo
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:09 pm

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
This is the typical difference between American engineering and European engineering.

Have you ever owned an American car? Most Europeans talk with their a**es instead of their brains when it comes to American cars. They have this perceived air of superiority because they don't know what they are talking about. In my well-over-a-million kilometers driving life, I have owned:
- European cars: BMW, Opel, Renault, Fiat, VW
- American cars: Ford (several models)
- Japanese cars: Toyota, Nissan, Suzuki

The best cars are, without contest, Japanse, followed by Americans, with Europeans last. Any Toyota or American Ford will outlast a BMW - easily. Toyota engines are at least one generation ahead in terms of technology compared with anything that European cars offer in similar price range (ALL Toyotas have VVTi engines, tell me how many European economy cars come with equivalent technology? Yes you can get it in a Porsche or a BMW, but what about a cheap compact or economy family car?). On top of that European cars polute more - don't believe? - check this study commissioned by EU government that compares motor vehicle standards of Europe, USA and Japan - link attached. Not only the standards for new vehicles are tighter in the US, the cars must be quaranteed to maintain these standards for 8 years.
http://www.cemt.org/online/council/2000/CM0006Fe.pdf
An before you make any statement about my nationality based on the flag next to my name, let me tell you that I'm EU citizen, currently living in the US (and hence the flag). By profession I'm a mechanical engineer with 20 years experience, and yes, I have professional experience with car industry.

When in comes to design optimization, American engineering is as good, if not better, that European. Some examples:
- B737 models are lighter (empty weight) than equivalent A32x models
- B777 is much lighter than equivalent size A340

There is no "fat" in American design, on the contrary, if anything, Boeing airplanes are more optimized (lighter) than equivalent Airbus models.

[Edited 2006-10-07 05:14:32]
 
Confuscius
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:23 pm

...why do you think Airbus puts "wingtip fences" on their A320s--to make them look fugly?

Nope, so mechanics won't fall off the wingtip.  Wink
Ain't I a stinker?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:34 pm

Quoting Ukair (Reply 7):
This just goes to show that winglets are nothing more than a passing fad, an aviation fashion accessory if you will.

I'm not sure saving money is a "passing fad".  Smile

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
This is the typical difference between American engineering and European engineering. We optimize, you build large. Take the Dodge Viper for example: It has a 8.3 liters and produces 500hp!!! Now take an European car with a similar engine: The Veyron. It has 8 liters and produces over 1000hp! That is the double!

Do note the Veyron is a W-16 vs. the V-10 in the Viper and the Veyron also
has four turbochargers where the Viper is naturally-aspirated.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting PVG (Reply 17):

A reasonable analogy IMHO!

So which planes are analogous to the Viper and Veyron?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
Tom_EDDF
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:41 pm

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 24):
The best cars are, without contest, Japanse, followed by Americans, with Europeans last. Any Toyota or American Ford will outlast a BMW - easily.

Agreed on the Japenese. In Europe I owned Nissans, several Volkswagens and now an Audi. I spend a lot of my time in the US, and have driven an 05 Volvo XC70, 06 Subaru Outback, 99 Ford Taurus, 07 Pontiac G6 (most recently, heading back to Germany after 3 months tomorrow), 06 Ford Mustang Convertible, 04 Chevy Trailblazer, 04 Buick Rendezvous, 02 Ford Expedition, 97 GMC Safari over extended periods. The most crappy cars I ever drove were Fords, especially - the nightmare Taurus aside - the current model Mustang V6 is a disaster, cheap plastics all over, rattles everywhere and a weak structure (convertible).

I love the US, but you can't build cars. Your trucks and SUVs are decent though, but your cars suck... at least most of them. Liked the G6 though, was a GTP.

And now, back to topic  Wink
 
usair320
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:46 pm

I am honestly happy about this as an Airbus guy. I always thought winglets looked better on Boeing(737/57).But sad as this is a sign of how bad airbus is doing at the moment with these A380 deleys are really screwing them over.
 
ha763
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:48 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 5):
A question here - since winglets were always on the BBJ series on the 737NG's the NG's wings were always strong enough structurally to deal with the winglet mods, right?

No. The blended winglets were first only offered on the BBJ help improve performance and to differentiate the BBJ from a regular 737NG. Only after the benefits of the winglets emerged from use on the BBJs did Boeing start the process of certifying the winglets for use on the regular 737NG, starting with the 737-800. The regular 737NG wing needs strengthening in order to install winglets. Early 737NGs need this done during the retrofit and later ones have it done during production.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:31 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
Adding winglets adds extra stress to a wing and their wings are not strong enough to handle it. They break everytime.

Really - so how many times do they break every month?  Yeah sure

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
Same problem with the A380 and why they couldn't put winglets on that.

Source?

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
When it comes to building planes, Boeing builds them better. Airbus builds a weaker plane.

Sure, I'm only wondering how a company with "better" planes was overtaken by the the other in deliveries...  Yeah sure

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
That is why a large majority of Airbus's are leased and now owned.

Source?

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
Companies dont have plans to keep them very long.

"Companies" - which ones? Air France or British Airways with their 19 years old A320-100s (frequently used on European SHORT HAUL routes)? Or maybe FedEx with 22 years old A310s? Or how about Astar Air Cargo and their A300s built in 1979?

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
A high up former engineer with northwest was in a meeting with my roommate during his internship and was saying that a 10 year old 737 has the same reliability as a brand new A320.

That must be the ultimate source...  Yeah sure

Well, reality suggests a different story, with more than 2800 A32X family aircraft in service.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
Seemed like they were doing a half-assed job to just prove they don't work.

 Yeah sure


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
hb88
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
EXACTLY. Airbus has a habit of building their a/c to the absolute minimum to meet specs. Thats why they had to cancel the winglets for the A320 and why they most likely will not be certified. Adding winglets adds extra stress to a wing and their wings are not strong enough to handle it. They break everytime. Same problem with the A380 and why they couldn't put winglets on that. They would have to strengthen the wing even more. Boeing on the other hand builds their a/c to exceed standards. The 741/2/3 had such a strong wing initially that when the 400 came out, they were able to add the extension and the winglet and still have a strong enough wing. The problem with the general public and people on here as that they base everything on orders. When it comes to building planes, Boeing builds them better. Airbus builds a weaker plane. That is why a large majority of Airbus's are leased and now owned. Companies dont have plans to keep them very long. A high up former engineer with northwest was in a meeting with my roommate during his internship and was saying that a 10 year old 737 has the same reliability as a brand new A320.

Excuse my language, but this post has to take the prize for the most inaccurate, opinionated piece of crap I've read on a.net for a while.

Where do you start with responding to such garbage - you can't. Either the poster is trolling or is a cretin.

As an aside, the original poster was mostly right except that the decision reduced to the aerodynamic advantage difference between the candidate winglets being so minimal that a commercial case couldn't be made for modifying the 320 to swap the wing-tip fences for either the Airbus winglet or the WT design.

Structural modifications actually had relatively little to do with it.

Quoting Usair320 (Reply 29):
I am honestly happy about this as an Airbus guy. I always thought winglets looked better on Boeing(737/57).But sad as this is a sign of how bad airbus is doing at the moment with these A380 deleys are really screwing them over.

This isn't a sign of anything other than the results of a flight test!!! Jeepers people, get a rein in on the anti-A stuff, you're looking a little, er, silly.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:13 pm

Give it time, I'm sure Aviation Partners was just waiting for this momment to steal the spotlight.
Good Luck to all Skyway Pilots! It's been great working with you!
 
sk736
Posts: 519
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:17 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
EXACTLY. Airbus has a habit of building their a/c to the absolute minimum to meet specs. Thats why they had to cancel the winglets

Much more likely to be that Airbus wings are better than Boeing wings and don't need to have enhancements fitted.

Quoting Grantcv (Reply 4):
I wonder how this decision affects the earlier talk of a 5% improvement in the A320 through various upgrades. This seems to be a major setback towards that goal.

As you don't know what was included to get that 5% you can't possibly know that this is a setback.
 
ZeroTwoGrass
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting Cricket (Reply 5):
A question here - since winglets were always on the BBJ series on the 737NG's the NG's wings were always strong enough structurally to deal with the winglet mods, right?

The original 737NGs required strengthening to the ends of the wings. This is before Boeing invested in Aviation Partners Boeing (just Aviation Partners then). Boeing then integrated winglets into production. Prior to that, anyone adding the winglets required taking the top and bottom panels of the outer wing off and strengthening the structure below.

Virgin Blue, as an example had it's 737s done at Christchurch, until the winglets were integrated into production.

Regarding the winglets on the BBJ, the BBJ in itself is different due to the fact its an -800 wing and landing gear on the fuselage of a -700.
 
wing
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:49 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
wing and their wings are not strong enough to handle it. They break everytime.

Based on the fact that you work at Disneyland, I can guess you must be the "Goofy" by looking at your comments.  rotfl 
follow me on my facebook page" captain wing's journey log"
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:11 pm

Quoting Manni (Reply 23):
Is that why he's a former NW engineer? I bet, the NW A320 fleet has become a lot more reliable since he left.

allow me to correct myself, he was a former CHIEF-engineer and since leaving the company (for whatever reason), he has now become an engineer with a brand new cargo company that is actually making money flying cargo in and out of Korea.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 31):
Really - so how many times do they break every month?

I'm not talking about fences, I'm talking about the winglet program which they have just dropped (thus the reason this thread exists). Ok, so maybe they dont break, but they obviously failed in something as simple as a winglet (while Boeing succeeded wonderfully).

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 31):
Sure, I'm only wondering how a company with "better" planes was overtaken by the the other in deliveries...

Because their planes are cheaper, plain and simple. As I said in my post, seems like everyone on this site bases quality of an aircraft on orders received (no matter what company it is). Which of course is the wrong thing to do.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 31):
That must be the ultimate source...

Well, reality suggests a different story, with more than 2800 A32X family aircraft in service.

I already addressed your first comment above. As for the second, Boeing has delivered more 737's than Airbus has total aircraft, so whats your point?
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/1999/news_release_990107a.html

Quote:
Orders for the Boeing 737, the world's best-selling commercial jetliner, soared beyond 4,000 in 1998.

And that was 8 years ago!

Quoting HB88 (Reply 32):
Where do you start with responding to such garbage - you can't. Either the poster is trolling or is a cretin.

I'm just waiting for everyone to realize and admit that Airbus made a HUGE mistake undertaking the A380. There must have been a reason that BOTH Boeing and MD came up with similar concepts and abandoned them more than 10 years ago. I could also list many reasons why it was a mistake, but I think the numerous delays (never before seen in commercial aviation) speak for themselves. But I know I'll get flamed for this so... whatever, go ahead
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kappel
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RE: New Cathay Pacific F/J/Y Seats Announced

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:18 pm

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 24):
B777 is much lighter than equivalent size A340

Well, not really, the a343 is much lighter than the 772ER, as is the a333. The a345 and a346 are indeed heavier than their Boeing counterparts.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
FlyUSCG
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting Wing (Reply 36):

Fair enough that that statement wasn't the best. However, they are obviously flawed whether it be in construction or in cost to convert and Airbus failed with them.
Go Trojans! Fight On!
 
PlaneHunter
Posts: 6512
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:17 am

RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 37):
Because their planes are cheaper, plain and simple.

If "plain and simple" is your only argument, then search for a better one...

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 37):
As I said in my post, seems like everyone on this site bases quality of an aircraft on orders received (no matter what company it is)

Of course you need to have a quality product in order to sell it.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 37):
I already addressed your first comment above. As for the second, Boeing has delivered more 737's than Airbus has total aircraft, so whats your point?

Have you ever noticed that Boeing has been around longer than Airbus? Fact is Airbus delivered more than 2800 A32X family aircraft to countless carriers and has overtaken Boeing in overall deliveries - that would be impossible by offering a product which is not reliable.

Why don't you just present a reputable source which supports your argument?


PH


P.S.: You haven't yet replied to my examples of older Airbus aircraft still in service...I'm wondering why.
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Alessandro
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
EXACTLY. Airbus has a habit of building their a/c to the absolute minimum to meet specs. Thats why they had to cancel the winglets for the A320 and why they most likely will not be certified. Adding winglets adds extra stress to a wing and their wings are not strong enough to handle it. They break everytime. Same problem with the A380 and why they couldn't put winglets on that. They would have to strengthen the wing even more. Boeing on the other hand builds their a/c to exceed standards. The 741/2/3 had such a strong wing initially that when the 400 came out, they were able to add the extension and the winglet and still have a strong enough wing. The problem with the general public and people on here as that they base everything on orders. When it comes to building planes, Boeing builds them better. Airbus builds a weaker plane. That is why a large majority of Airbus's are leased and now owned. Companies dont have plans to keep them very long. A high up former engineer with northwest was in a meeting with my roommate during his internship and was saying that a 10 year old 737 has the same reliability as a brand new A320.

Can you explain why the brand new Boeing 737 crashed in Brazil and the SAM hit A300 didn´t in Bagdad?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:02 pm

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 41):

Can you explain why the brand new Boeing 737 crashed in Brazil and the SAM hit A300 didn´t in Bagdad?

To be fair, we still don't know much about the GOL crash, so let's not bring it into any discussion. It's very unlikely anyway that crash is somehow related to the B737's design.

However, the incident in Baghdad tells a lot about the A300's design...


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
Gary2880
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 15):
How do you explain the size of the A380 wing then?

My guess is to hold the middle bit with the people up in the air?
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
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autothrust
Posts: 1455
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:43 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
EXACTLY. Airbus has a habit of building their a/c to the absolute minimum to meet specs. Thats why they had to cancel the winglets for the A320 and why they most likely will not be certified. Adding winglets adds extra stress to a wing and their wings are not strong enough to handle it. They break everytime. Same problem with the A380 and why they couldn't put winglets on that.

   LMAO, I never readed such a stupid post. Lol how funny. The A320 Wing is so good efficient (unlike to the 737 Wing), that a winglet doesnt make a resonable diffrence at the economics. It seems you dont have a clue, so did you know the A380 has one of the most advanced and aerodinamic Wings ever made ? It produces much more lift then a other Wing in the World and for example an A380 can land with this Wing at min. 131kt.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
Boeing builds them better. Airbus builds a weaker plane. That is why a large majority of Airbus's are leased and now owned.

If the Airbusses are weaker build, tell me why the 737NG suffers serious bucklings at the end of the aircraft.  

Quoting RJ777 (Reply 21):
Not to turn this into another A vs. B war, but it looks like this is yet ANOTHER thing Boeing does better!

With such a untrue statement the only thing you do is turn it to a Avs B war.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 24):
- B737 models are lighter (empty weight) than equivalent A32x models
- B777 is much lighter than equivalent size A340

  Silly comparisons doesnt represent the whole European engeneering know how.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 32):
Excuse my language, but this post has to take the prize for the most inaccurate, opinionated piece of crap I've read on a.net for a while.

   How true.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 42):
However, the incident in Baghdad tells a lot about the A300's design...

  


Quoting Katekebo (Reply 24):
The best cars are, without contest, Japanse, followed by Americans, with Europeans last.

Offtopic but, did you know that BMW is the only manufacturer in the World wich has the Know-How to produce Magnesium made Motors? European Cars are much safer then other cars,Common Rail Diesel technology was invented in Europe, also ABS, etc...i could go on and on and on....

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 15):
How do you explain the size of the A380 wing then?

The A380 Wing is also designed for the bigger A389 as you sure know. And you need such a Wing for a 590 MTOW plane.

[Edited 2006-10-07 12:48:17]

[Edited 2006-10-07 12:51:03]
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1422
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting TAP340 (Reply 10):
This is the typical difference between American engineering and European engineering. We optimize, you build large. Take the Dodge Viper for example: It has a 8.3 liters and produces 500hp!!! That is less hp per liter than my mom's Saab 9.5! Now take an European car with a similar engine: The Veyron. It has 8 liters and produces over 1000hp! That is the double! European optimization in a nut shell. In cars it is stupid, but in planes, as you have proven, it is worth the initial price.

LOL. I'd say the A350. A380, and A400 point that out clearly. Next example please........  old 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:54 pm

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 45):
I'd say the A350. A380, and A400 point that out clearly.

What exactly?


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:05 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 6):
Airbus has a habit of building their a/c to the absolute minimum to meet specs.

I'm so glad others beat me to dealing with that one!

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 37):
I'm just waiting for everyone to realize and admit that Airbus made a HUGE mistake undertaking the A380.

And that has exactly what to do with A320 winglets not being economically worthwhile?
 
hb88
Posts: 760
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 1:25 am

RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:12 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 37):
Ok, so maybe they dont break, but they obviously failed in something as simple as a winglet

Indeed you are sort of correct. The winglets failed to provide a sufficient degree of advantage compared to equivalent designs so were downselected. How this translates into faults with Airbus designed wings is beyond me.

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 37):
Quoting HB88 (Reply 32):
"Where do you start with responding to such garbage - you can't. Either the poster is trolling or is a cretin."

I'm just waiting for everyone to realize and admit that Airbus made a HUGE mistake undertaking the A380. There must have been a reason that BOTH Boeing and MD came up with similar concepts and abandoned them more than 10 years ago. I could also list many reasons why it was a mistake, but I think the numerous delays (never before seen in commercial aviation) speak for themselves. But I know I'll get flamed for this so... whatever, go ahead

ROFLMAO....

You must cut grass for Randy Baseler... chuckle... No flaming necessary, you're doing a nice job all on your own.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 37):
Ok, so maybe they (the wings)dont break, but they (Airbus) obviously failed in something as simple as a winglet (while Boeing succeeded wonderfully).

Sorry?

Airbus was asked by a customer (Jetblue) to investigate and test whether retro-fitting their A320s with winglets would have similar benefits to the range of their planes as on the competing 737.

Airbus designed 1 and test flew 2 sets of winglets, yet neither of them showed an overall performance improvement.

Just how this can be considered a failure is way beyond me.

It simply means the basic wing is already as efficient as a reinforced wing with winglets.

Something which is as good while having less volume/weight/structural parts is generally considered a superior product by me, but then I suppose it takes Boeing glasses to see the wonderfull success in having to add winglets to a newly designed wing to match the performance of a 20 year old wing of your competitor....
 
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autothrust
Posts: 1455
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RE: Airbus Dropped Program To Add Winglets To A320s

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:33 pm

Quoting Sabenapilot (Reply 49):
Airbus designed 1 and test flew 2 sets of winglets, yet neither of them showed an overall performance improvement.

Just how this can be considered a failure is way beyond me.

I suppose it takes Boeing glasses to see the wonderfull success in having to add winglets to a newly designed wing to match the performance of a 20 year old wing of your competitor....

 point You hit the nail on his head. I couldnt agree more.

Maybe someone mind the A330/A350 have / will have Winglets. That means the A330 Wing could be improoved with Winglets unlike the A320 Wing.
“Faliure is not an option.”

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