af773atmsp
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Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:31 am

NW has said that they will probably replace their DC-9s with 100 seat ERJ jets. The two jets are the 190 and 195. Which will NW order the 190, 195, or both?
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:48 am

For Minnesota Twins fans out there here is a message.
Noooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I know that wasn't an aviation thing but I just wanted to type it. Big grin
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
burnsie28
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:24 am

More or less likely both, but if its one or the other it would more likely be the 195's
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1937
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:26 am

How many seats does the DC9's have on average and what sectors do they fly? Short hops or medium hauls or both?

What will suit them best? A two-class 100-seat E190 for longer sectors or two-class 110-115-seat E195 for short hops?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:26 am

I would think the E195 would be the jet to replace the DC-9s. The only other jet I can think of is the A318. I want NW to order the 195. I think they have enough baby buses.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
I would think the E195 would be the jet to replace the DC-9s. The only other jet I can think of is the A318. I want NW to order the 195. I think they have enough baby buses.

Second that...it would make a great replacement.
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:54 am

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2750766

They've been eyeing the E190 for over a year. The industry analysts say it's going to be the E190. I'm willing to bet it's all E190's.

It's a good match for the 36 E175's they ordered for Compass.



Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:01 am

I'm fine if its the 190 or 195. Both look like very good regional jets. Is there a date when the E190s will start service?
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
YVRlonghauler
Posts: 106
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:29 am

So much for guessing...

Bombardier lands $1.35B order for regional jets

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/st...06/10/06/qc-bombardiernewdeal.html
 
AsstChiefMark
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:30 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 7):
Is there a date when the E190s will start service?

They haven't been ordered yet. That should happen any day now.


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Mark
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:16 pm

Aren't the 190 and 195 aircrafts mainline. AC has there E190's and E195's in mainline not Jazz. So if NW did order one of these aircrafts wouldn't they be in mainline not with XJ or Pinnacle?
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
gregarious119
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting YVRlonghauler (Reply 8):
So much for guessing...

Bombardier lands $1.35B order for regional jets

This is a different order. These are 76-seat jets, an order which was shared with EMB.

As for whether the 100-seat order will be filled by the EMB 190/195, i'm not sure which type fits best for a DC9 replacement.
 
Squid
Posts: 192
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:02 am

NWA mainline will fly the 190's but the employee's will only be paid regional wages, the FA's still to negotiate the payscale. But it should be in line with MESA, which in turn will keep NWA's operating costs way down. NWA's employee's flatly refused to allow Compass to fly up to 110 seat AC, and unfortunately NWA management caved in on this. However, NWA management did let the mainline employee's operate this AC, but only if they agreed to regional wages. I really wish NWA management could have won that 110 seat regional battle, it really would have brought their seat cost's down. With most of the employee's being on the one year pay scale at Compass, NWA could have basically paid for the AC with their redused wages alone. But it is good to see that NWA stood firm with their mainline employee's about the regional pay scale for the 190.
 
ksupilot
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:05 am

Should be interesting to see how the 190 works for them. How does B9 handle the 190 payscale? Is a 190 exployee on the same scale as a 320 employee?
 
m404
Posts: 1875
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:48 pm

Squid

When you say NW employees are you only thinking about the flight crew and FAs? These will be ground operated by NW mainline personnel at stations where available (not outsourced). Those contract employees will be at your regional scales (or less) and the mainline have taken considerable concessions and OKd the substantial increase in Part-Time employees, many of which were the formal full time agents. That dilution will help subsidize the operation you want.
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
okie73
Posts: 303
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:09 pm

Quoting Squid (Reply 12):
NWA's employee's flatly refused to allow Compass to fly up to 110 seat AC, and unfortunately NWA management

if NW employees will be flying a 190 for regional wages, why do you care if Compass or NW flies it?
 
bobnwa
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Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:15 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
I think they have enough baby buses.

What baby buses are you talking about?
 
af773atmsp
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Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:37 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:11 am

The A319s and A320s. I thought a lot of people nicknamed them baby buses. And the A318 is just a little bit shorter than the 319. The ERJ 190 and 195 will probably take over the DC-9 routes.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4460
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 17):
I thought a lot of people nicknamed them baby buses

Have never heard the 320 and 319 referred to as baby buses. I must be hanging out with the wrong crowd!!
 
KingAir200
Posts: 668
Joined: Sun May 28, 2006 1:37 pm

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:32 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 12):
NWA's employee's flatly refused to allow Compass to fly up to 110 seat AC, and unfortunately NWA management caved in on this.

Don't you just hate that when NW employees stand up for their jobs?  Silly

[Edited 2006-10-08 18:36:54]
 
Squid
Posts: 192
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 15):
if SA)">NW employees will be flying a 190 for regional wages, why do you care if Compass or SA)">NW flies it?

Well if the 190 could have been flown by Compass, an entirely new regional airline, the Compass employee's will all be starting at first year pay on a payscale set by Compass. Compass will not have the union's to contend with which will allow Compass to set pay-scales at market-rate, not the bloated pay-rates at the major airlines which only in turn drives the overall CASM up. NWA was unable to win the 190 regional battle completely, instead allowing NWA mainline to fly it on negotiated regional-like wages. However, the regional-like wages for the pilots is higher at NWA mainline than they are at Compass, and the NWA flight attendants have yet to negotiate a payscale. The only thing that NWA management has is a side letter of agreement in the back of the flight attendant contract stating the company and the union will meet to negotiate a 77-110 seat payscale similar to a large regional airline i.e. MESA, Trans States, Air Wisconson, etc. However as long as NWA management must deal with the union, the wages will be unnecessarily higher than market-rate. Also, the employees at NWA mainline have many years of seniority, they will not be paid at year one wages when they do fly that AC. An NWA pilot with 9 years and a flight attendant with 12 years will be paid at the 9 year, and 12 year paysteps, instead of 1 year paysteps like they would at Compass thus in turn preventing NWA from capturing the absolute lowest CASM possible when operating the 190.

[Edited 2006-10-08 21:26:47]
 
Squid
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 4:21 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting KingAir200 (Reply 19):
Don't you just hate that when NW employees stand up for their jobs?

I believe in a completely free market, I think unions should be illegal. They do nothing but keep prices higher than they need to be. If a company is satisfied with the caliber of employee they are attracting and retaining with the pay and benifits they are providing, then why should the company be forced to pay highter wages than is required? Unions do nothing but drive up the cost of doing business thus keeping the price of goods and services higher than they need to be.

[Edited 2006-10-08 21:28:14]
 
SESGDL
Posts: 2613
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:34 am

NW will definitely order both the E-190 and the E-195, as they have different capacities, which would fit for the 3 DC-9 variants NW still operates. Would have been nicer if NW had ordered the 717 to replace the DC-9 though. One can dream...

Jeremy
 
KingAir200
Posts: 668
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:38 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 21):
I think unions should be illegal

Well, aside from protecting some current DC-9 pilots' jobs down the road, ALPA didn't really help NW pilots with their last contract, so I guess you got part of your wish.

[Edited 2006-10-08 21:41:29]
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2251
Joined: Sun Jul 30, 2000 1:17 pm

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:20 am

Wouldn't the E190 make more sense for minimising labour costs? Fitted out for 99 pax, the E190 would only need 2 FAs, I believe, or are pax/crew ratios different in the US? If it's as I suspect (1 FA per 50 pax), then going for the E195 would only give you an extra 15 or so seats for the extra FA you'd have to hire. So costs per pax would increase.

A pretty crude calculation, but if I were NW, I'd go down the E190 route for that very reason.
 
Jano
Posts: 744
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 1:48 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting Aerokiwi (Reply 24):
A pretty crude calculation, but if I were NW, I'd go down the E190 route for that very reason.

Depends what they want to replace.
DC9-30 is F16Y84 = 100 seats
DC9-40 is F16Y94 = 110 seats
DC9-50 is F16Y109 = 125 seats.

So if NW intends to replace all DC9s with Embraers then the'd go with both Embraers. But if NW decides that A319 (F16Y108=124 seats) is a replacement for DC9050 then they'd buy more A319.

However, per a.net database (I do not know how much we cen believe this data) A319 is operating empty 39,884kg, Dc9-50 is operating mpty 28,068kg; and E195 is operating empty 27,100kg. So Embraer has some advantage here, but I guess it lacks some legs comparing to A319.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
aerokiwi
Posts: 2251
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RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:44 am

I guess it all has to do with the loads on the sectors the DC9s fly, the likelihood of filling seats above 100 seats, the average fares for those seats and labour costs. An equation encompassing all 4 factors would probably be needed to determine whether the E190 or E195 would win out.

But really, a 25 seat gap that would exist between the E190 and the A319 isn't really that big of a deal. So I'd still expect an E190 order.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5027
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 12):
but only if they agreed to regional wages

Not quite, the wages will not be a DC-9 payscale, but will be above those at regionals.
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:36 am

I expect an E-190 order, as the gap isn't too big a deal. However, I am wishing for an E-195 order, so far my favorite of the E-Jets.
 
bobnwa
Posts: 4460
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 12:10 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:54 pm

Quoting KSUpilot (Reply 28):
I am wishing for an E-195 order, so far my favorite of the E-Jets.

Why do you prefer the E-195 over the E-190 with its much shorter range?
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 29):
Why do you prefer the E-195 over the E-190 with its much shorter range?

It has nothing to do with technology or anything for me. I just like the looks of the E-195. I wants NW to pick whatever they feel is best for them.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:14 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 20):
Well if the 190 could have been flown by Compass, an entirely new regional airline, the Compass employee's will all be starting at first year pay on a payscale set by Compass. Compass will not have the union's to contend with which will allow Compass to set pay-scales at market-rate, not the bloated pay-rates at the major airlines which only in turn drives the overall CASM up. NWA was unable to win the 190 regional battle completely, instead allowing NWA mainline to fly it on negotiated regional-like wages. However, the regional-like wages for the pilots is higher at NWA mainline than they are at Compass, and the NWA flight attendants have yet to negotiate a payscale. The only thing that NWA management has is a side letter of agreement in the back of the flight attendant contract stating the company and the union will meet to negotiate a 77-110 seat payscale similar to a large regional airline i.e. MESA, Trans States, Air Wisconson, etc. However as long as NWA management must deal with the union, the wages will be unnecessarily higher than market-rate. Also, the employees at NWA mainline have many years of seniority, they will not be paid at year one wages when they do fly that AC. An NWA pilot with 9 years and a flight attendant with 12 years will be paid at the 9 year, and 12 year paysteps, instead of 1 year paysteps like they would at Compass thus in turn preventing NWA from capturing the absolute lowest CASM possible when operating the 190.

Wow, I'm impressed. You win the award for the most moronic poster ever to visit airliners.net.

You might want to sit back and think about which is more important. Having your favorite airline have a lower CASM just so you can brag about it on the internet... or thousands of people being able to put food on the table every night.
 
checkraiser
Posts: 814
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:35 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:34 am

First you said:

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 31):
Wow, I'm impressed. You win the award for the most moronic poster ever to visit airliners.net.

Then you just had to beat it by saying this:

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 31):
You might want to sit back and think about which is more important. Having your favorite airline have a lower CASM just so you can brag about it on the internet... or thousands of people being able to put food on the table every night.

If NW didn't change things they'd liquidate. How's that going to feed all those families?  scratchchin 
N1120A is a camel-fucking terrorist.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7391
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 10):
AC has there E190's and E195's in mainline not Jazz.

And US will have their E90/95s on mainline as well... And I believe someone already stated this for NWA as well...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:51 am

Quoting Checkraiser (Reply 32):
f NW didn't change things they'd liquidate. How's that going to feed all those families?

If you pay your employees too much, you're screwed. If you pay your employees too little, you're screwing them. There is a good middle ground. Squid made it blatently obvious that he wishes the employees were heavily beaten into the ground.

Flying any jet air carrier aircraft is a career which commands a lot of responsibility, training, risk (stability, medicals, checkrides, etc) and it sure as heck isn't something that should pay poverty wages. If the airline has to do so to survive, the airline has screwed up beyond belief.... hardly an airline I'd want to be a fan of or proud of.
 
ksupilot
Posts: 635
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:18 am

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 33):
And US will have their E90/95s on mainline as well... And I believe someone already stated this for NWA as well...

When are these slated for delivery. They should look really nice in the new US colors.
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1388
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:30 pm

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 34):
If you pay your employees too little, you're screwing them

Well you get the award for most clueless in economics. If you pay your employees too little, they go somewhere else - and you are screwed. If they stay, you are paying enough. That is the definition of "fair" - you accept the job though you are free to refuse it and go somewhere else.

mrocktor
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:13 pm

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 36):
If they stay, you are paying enough.

I would disagree. They have to stay and be productive. What good is it having a bunch of unmotivated employees who do the absolute bare minimum to avoid being fired?
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting Mrocktor (Reply 36):
Well you get the award for most clueless in economics. If you pay your employees too little, they go somewhere else - and you are screwed. If they stay, you are paying enough. That is the definition of "fair" - you accept the job though you are free to refuse it and go somewhere else.

Not in the airline industry. Airline employees are not completely "at will"... it is not possible to leave one position at an airline and take another equal position at another. This is mainly due to two reasons...

Few cities have more than one airline with crew bases in them, which means that switching jobs means uprooting the family and moving somewhere else or spending countless hours commuting back and forth. Almost all other professions have multiple companies in the metropolitan area which employee workers with the same type of skill sets.

The other reason is, obviously, senority. Whenever you move to another airline, you start again at the BOTTOM. This is not true in most industries where you are often able to obtain a position and pay equal with your experience. That means that the employee logically must stay until their position at their current airline is not as good as a first year, new, probationary position at another airline.


Airlines know this... they know their employees can't all just walk out and get other jobs easily. Thats why they can and, sadly, do take every chance to beat them down and squeeze every last bit out of them. Its pretty horrible and disgusting if you ask me...
 
mrocktor
Posts: 1388
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:57 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 37):
I would disagree. They have to stay and be productive. What good is it having a bunch of unmotivated employees who do the absolute bare minimum to avoid being fired?

That is just the flip side of the coin. The business has to pay enough to attract and maintain a productive, engaged workforce.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 38):
Few cities have more than one airline with crew bases in them, which means that switching jobs means uprooting the family and moving somewhere else or spending countless hours commuting back and forth.

Bohoo, welcome to the 21st century. In my line of work I pretty much have to change countries to change employers.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 38):
That means that the employee logically must stay until their position at their current airline is not as good as a first year, new, probationary position at another airline.

Entirely agreed!

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 38):
Airlines know this... they know their employees can't all just walk out and get other jobs easily.

Which is why if unions actualy cared one bit about improving their members' lot in life, scrapping seniority industry wide would be the first order of business. But that's not what unions are about, is it?

mrocktor
 
NASCARAirforce
Posts: 2452
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 am

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 31):
Wow, I'm impressed. You win the award for the most moronic poster ever to visit airliners.net.

Actually that goes for someone who starts a "What will Northwest replace their DC-9s with thread" but thats besides the point.

Quoting Flyf15 (Reply 31):
You might want to sit back and think about which is more important. Having your favorite airline have a lower CASM just so you can brag about it on the internet... or thousands of people being able to put food on the table every night.

Keep the CASM down and you can keep affording to pay the employees. What is worse then? The employees taking a pay cut so maybe they have to cut back on some luxuries or keep those high prices up so the company has to lay off employees instead. Unemployment won't even pay as much as the pay cut and that runs out after 6 months.

Or worse yet the high CASM causes the airline to go from Chapter 11 to Chapter 7 and all employees lose their jobs... how are they going to put food on the table then? None of the other airlines will be able to pick up all of the unemployed Northwest Employees.

Even though I am a former Teamster, I am beginning to think the Unions are useless more and more. They didn't help keep my job, but they collected dues up until the end.

In reality it would be nice to see Northwest upper management take some paycuts too.
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: Which Will NW Order The 190, 195, Or Both?

Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting Squid (Reply 21):
I believe in a completely free market, I think unions should be illegal. They do nothing but keep prices higher than they need to be. If a company is satisfied with the caliber of employee they are attracting and retaining with the pay and benifits they are providing, then why should the company be forced to pay highter wages than is required? Unions do nothing but drive up the cost of doing business thus keeping the price of goods and services higher than they need to be.



In college I had a professor had an interesting take on this subject. Now before you go off and say "Professors, what do they know" he was a former airline exectutive. He said two things. One, any company that has union on property usually did something to deserve it. Two, he asked the question will management take advantage of you if you let them. His answer, "Damn right they will." If anyone would know the truth of this it would be a former airline exec.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.

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