leelaw
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Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:19 pm

Airbus' crisis looks like Boeing's in 1997

By Dominic Gates
Seattle Times aerospace reporter


Airplane parts clog factory floors. Profits evaporate. Customers demand compensation. Heads roll in the corporate suites and new executives sketch costly restructuring moves.

This is Airbus 2006.

It was also Boeing 1997.

Airbus now faces a crisis much like the one that hit Boeing a decade ago because the European plane maker can't get its crucial A380 superjumbo jets finished on time, it's losing the confidence of the airlines. Its new chief executive may be about to bail...


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...aerospace/2003293167_airbus07.html

A "news analysis" piece form Dominic Gates with some interesting comments from Wolfgang Demisch and others.

[Edited 2006-10-07 14:38:35]
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Lumberton
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:35 pm

Thanks, Leelaw. But the similarities end when one begins to discuss the flexibility and ability to implement reorganizations and/or recovery plans. Does management have the flexibility to control it's destiny? In EADS' case, I'm not so sure. Here is a telling quote from that article:

Quote:
Hostility to that plan from the German government, which has invested heavily in Hamburg to win A380 production work, and from the French unions, reluctant to let go of the humming narrowbody assembly lines, seems to make that idea a non-starter.
"It makes commercial sense," McVitie said, "but Airbus isn't commercial. It's political."
Airbus vice president Rainer Ohler, in an e-mail, acknowledged that European realities mean Airbus cannot restructure its manufacturing model as freely as Boeing did on the 787.
"A certain balance between our sites in France, the UK, Spain and Germany is required," he wrote. "Airbus is different and will never go exactly the same road as Boeing. ... We live in Europe. Things tend to be a bit more complicated here."

Very matter of fact and right on target, IMO.The end result of "Power 8" will likely be a compromise.

[Edited 2006-10-07 14:44:46]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:37 pm

It's a good piece, thanks for the link!
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ltbewr
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:23 pm

Boeing is basically all in the USA and has far more flexibility in operations than Airbus has with dealing with several national governments despirate to keep good paying jobs in their respective locations. While Boeing may have to please all members of the Congress and Senate, State, regional and local politicans, to make sure jobs stay in various districts, they don't face the same National restraints on being making decisions. If I am correct, they spun off the Witcha, KS operations to another company with some issues, but not of national politicans making noise.
Boeing also has many Stockholders, unlike Airbus which has several top stockholders (EDAS and others) and thus too may bosses with their own and National agendas.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:25 pm

It seems like Streiff's departure is a done deal: he's already picked out his next job! I guess the status quo has just too much inertia.

Quote:
"The idea that an industrial entity that has substantial state ownership and is viewed as a national champion is going to be curtailed because there is a few billion Euros shortfall over a few years is to underestimate the ingenuity of European accountants and financiers," he said. "I don't think there's going to be any trouble funding this."

Indeed. Airbus screws up, finds some governmental teats to suck on, no problems. The EU will loose all credibility at the WTO. Since the US already has lost all credibility at the WTO, it might as well close up shop.

One reason why Boeing 1997 doesn't look like Airbus 2006: Boeing didn't get a government bail-out in 1997.
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FLALEFTY
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:55 pm

The governments and unions need to step aside and allow the management at EADS restructure Airbus in a manner that makes good business sense. It will result in a stronger operation and will save many jobs.

I'd hate to see Airbus be forced to pull the plug on the A380 program because its production and business plan gets too damaged to fix.
 
Joni
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
Boeing is basically all in the USA and has far more flexibility in operations than Airbus has with dealing with several national governments

This was true until the B787, when e.g. the Japanese government became very much involved.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:28 am

Quoting FLALEFTY (Reply 5):
unions need to step aside

ROFL

When does this ever happen, anywhere?
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:53 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
This was true until the B787, when e.g. the Japanese government became very much involved.

Nonsense. The Japanese goverment has no direct connection to Boeing at all. The French and Spanish governments hold shares in EADS, and the German government certainly asserts itself as well. Very different situations.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
CHIFLYGUY
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:56 am

I've harped on this before but there is one key difference between Boeing 1997 and Airbus 2006. Yes, manufacturing glitches look the same, but the financials are very different. Boeing's problem was underinvestment. Airbus' is overinvestment in models like the A380 with limited market potential (arguably the A340NG falls into this category as well). Boeing's problem was much easier to solve than Airbus'. The A380 overhang is not going away for a while. Among other thing, it likely means a large future (albeit non-cash) writeoff).
 
airfrnt
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:01 am

Another important point is that Boeing didn't fire Condit when the 1997 lines collapsed (like they should have, IMHO). Hopefully Airbus has already gotten rid of the people in charge on the A380.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1

Sun Oct 08, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3):
Boeing is basically all in the USA and has far more flexibility in operations than Airbus has with dealing with several national governments

This was true until the B787, when e.g. the Japanese government became very much involved.

You got it backwards. Outsourcing to Japan is part of the flexibility Boeing enjoys.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
Hopefully Airbus has already gotten rid of the people in charge on the A380.

Then why hasn't Airbus said that? That one little step alone would go a long way to restoring confidence in Airbus, and the A-380 project. Somehow, I doubt many of the political appointed representitives from the different EU states were fired.

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 9):
Airbus' is overinvestment in models like the A380 with limited market potential (arguably the A340NG falls into this category as well). Boeing's problem was much easier to solve than Airbus'. The A380 overhang is not going away for a while. Among other thing, it likely means a large future (albeit non-cash) writeoff).

You might as well include the bungled A-350 Mk. I, Mk. II, Mk. III, Mk. IV, and XWB programs. With the various A-350 programs, the shortage was not cash, but engineers, because the A-380 program ate all of them up. The several differently offered A-350 didn't generate the sales interest Airbus hoped for because it kept changing every month or so up until Farnborogh. How can any airline expect to see the airplane they thought they ordered under those situations?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
This was true until the B787, when e.g. the Japanese government became very much involved.

Tokyo is not in the position to dictate to Boeing how or where they assemble the 787. They also do not control Boeing's corporate head-count. Nor do they influence which products Boeing pursues.

They may influence how Mitsubishi and Fuji Heavy Industries deliver their sub-assembles to Boeing, but as long as they deliver those assemblies to contract...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):

This is Airbus 2006.

It was also Boeing 1997.

Airbus now faces a crisis much like the one that hit Boeing a decade ago because the European plane maker can't get its crucial A380 superjumbo jets finished on time, it's losing the confidence of the airlines. Its new chief executive may be about to bail...

This is a fundamentally flawed argument. The magnitude of crisis that Boeing faced in 1997 doesn't begin to compare with what Airbus now faces.

Imagine if Boeing had launched the Sonic Cruiser. That's where Airbus is today.
 
YVRlonghauler
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
The magnitude of crisis that Boeing faced in 1997 doesn't begin to compare with what Airbus now faces.

So, which one you think is worse?
 
atmx2000
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:22 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
This is a fundamentally flawed argument. The magnitude of crisis that Boeing faced in 1997 doesn't begin to compare with what Airbus now faces.

Actually, I also thought that the problem was remniscent in terms of the wide ranging effects that the 1997 production problems had on Boeing.

Quoting YVRlonghauler (Reply 15):
So, which one you think is worse?

I suppose he thinks Airbus's problems are worse. That is my feeling as well. This one is worse because its is both a design and production problem, and its effects will be felt far longer because it is placing additional demand on Airbus engineering resources and delaying future products significantly. It has the likely effect of reducing the marketable lifetime of the current A380 version, meaning less revenue than previously expected will be generated from an investment significantly larger than expected. Given that market for very large aircraft is inherently low, the development costs per unit sold will increase markedly.
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Adria
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 8):
Nonsense. The Japanese goverment has no direct connection to Boeing at all. The French and Spanish governments hold shares in EADS, and the German government certainly asserts itself as well. Very different situations.

Who's then funding the costs to built factories in Japan??

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 16):
I suppose he thinks Airbus's problems are worse. That is my feeling as well. This one is worse because its is both a design and production problem, and its effects will be felt far longer because it is placing additional demand on Airbus engineering resources and delaying future products significantly. It has the likely effect of reducing the marketable lifetime of the current A380 version, meaning less revenue than previously expected will be generated from an investment significantly larger than expected. Given that market for very large aircraft is inherently low, the development costs per unit sold will increase markedly.

The problems are worse but not for that reason like you mentioned. The A380s performance is believed to be better than expected and a long list of important carriers have put many orders. Although there are many that publicly think about cancellations I don't believe many will (if any). Also the A380 will improve eventually so while the current version could suffer I believe that there are going to be improved models that will push the lifespan of the A380 farther (like Boeing does with the 747). The market for VLAs is probably bigger than most here on a.net want to believe. Boeing was also loud on saying "point-to-point" is the way to go...but here they are stretching the 747-8 to make it more competitive against the A380. Why bother if the market is really so small?
 
brendows
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
Who's then funding the costs to built factories in Japan??

But why doesn't Airbus out source work to Japan if that's the case?

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
The market for VLAs is probably bigger than most here on a.net want to believe. Boeing was also loud on saying "point-to-point" is the way to go...but here they are stretching the 747-8 to make it more competitive against the A380. Why bother if the market is really so small?

If the VLA market was as big as Airbus had predicted, Boeing could have built a completely new aircraft to compete with it, but they don't. Instead, they are making a much cheaper derivative, that can be very competitive. Boeing has never said that there were no VLA market, just that it wasn't big enough for two new aircraft that would compete with each other, hence the 748. Look at the number of sales for the last few years, it clearly show you what market that will dominate the future.
 
zvezda
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:01 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 4):
The EU will loose all credibility at the WTO. Since the US already has lost all credibility at the WTO, it might as well close up shop.

The WTO has lost all credibility. The American and European farm subsidies are continuing to devastate Africa.

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
The A380s performance is believed to be better than expected

Believed by whom? Expected by whom?

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
Also the A380 will improve eventually so while the current version could suffer I believe that there are going to be improved models that will push the lifespan of the A380 farther (like Boeing does with the 747).

I don't believe the WhaleJet program will survive that long.

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
The market for VLAs is probably bigger than most here on a.net want to believe. Boeing was also loud on saying "point-to-point" is the way to go...but here they are stretching the 747-8 to make it more competitive against the A380. Why bother if the market is really so small?

As has been pointed out many times, Boeing has been able to produce a competitive product for a very small investment.
 
Adria
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:26 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 18):
If the VLA market was as big as Airbus had predicted, Boeing could have built a completely new aircraft to compete with it, but they don't. Instead, they are making a much cheaper derivative, that can be very competitive. Boeing has never said that there were no VLA market, just that it wasn't big enough for two new aircraft that would compete with each other, hence the 748. Look at the number of sales for the last few years, it clearly show you what market that will dominate the future.

?? Boeing ALWAYS believed there is a VLA market but they were publicly playing it down since the A3XX came to the table (like they did when the A320 was developed...). Boeing has some weird culture in the company because they are always directly and moronically bashing the competition. This is weird. The current sales are slow due to the phase before EIS for the A380 and the 748 (pax) is currently not competitive that's why they are stretching it.

Quoting Brendows (Reply 18):
But why doesn't Airbus out source work to Japan if that's the case?

I have nothing against Boeing and Japan but if someone mentions Airbus and subsidies then we have to look at Boeing and Japan and also the loans they have got from Washington for the 787...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
Believed by whom? Expected by whom?

Believed by Airbus and the airlines (or do you really think so many airlines are so wrong about the A380??), But since you are so sure the A380 will fail I could ask you the same thing...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
As has been pointed out many times, Boeing has been able to produce a competitive product for a very small investment.

That's why there are so many orders for the passenger version of the 747-8...(and please spare me with your CASM thing...you are to subjective about the A380 it's like reading boeing.com).
 
zvezda
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting Adria (Reply 20):
That's why there are so many orders for the passenger version of the 747-8.

Since its launch, the B747-8I has outsold the WhaleJet. I've always maintained that the VLA market is small and shrinking. I don't have a lot of confidence that there will be more than 100 B747-8I deliveries ever, though it's possible. It would have been very risky for Boeing to develop the B747-8I without the B747-8F.
 
Adria
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:50 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 21):
Since its launch, the B747-8I has outsold the WhaleJet. I've always maintained that the VLA market is small and shrinking. I don't have a lot of confidence that there will be more than 100 B747-8I deliveries ever, though it's possible. It would have been very risky for Boeing to develop the B747-8I without the B747-8F.

Ohhh come on Zvezda, the airlines are on a wait and see mode when they consider the A380 (even you mentioned it yourself in one of your previous posts), this happens to all other projects (yes it even happened to the 777...shocking) when they reach this stage of the development... but I still wonder who ordered the 748 pax version (since you claim that it outsold the A380)?

And it was very risky for Boeing to develop the 747 40 years ago so the "risky" argument is way off. Boeing was always ready to offer bigger versions of the 747 (even before the A3XX was considered). Basically they are doing now with the 747 what Airbus has done with the A330 and the first A350 version...

As a freighter the 747 is ok since it was built for that purpose in the first place, but as a pax version the A380 has an advantage. I know this may seem hard to you but the latest developments around the 747-8 show that airlines want something bigger or more competitive to the A380 and also a look at the orders table says it all...
 
hamster
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:04 pm

I think Airbus will eventually get their act together. They have built up too much of a presence not to. As the "world" economy grows so too shall the travel from Asia to the West. Who knows, perhaps the 380 will be a dominant force in the airline industry
 
brendows
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting Adria (Reply 20):
Boeing has some weird culture in the company because they are always directly and moronically bashing the competition. This is weird. The current sales are slow due to the phase before EIS for the A380 and the 748 (pax) is currently not competitive that's why they are stretching it.

When have they bashed their competition, can you provide a source where they do that? The only thing they have stated is that the VLA market isn't big enough for two new aircraft, is that bashing? If you want to know what bashing is, I would recommend you to read the thread that summarized all quotes on the 7E7/787 that some Airbus representatives has made during the last few years...

Quoting Adria (Reply 20):
I have nothing against Boeing and Japan but if someone mentions Airbus and subsidies then we have to look at Boeing and Japan and also the loans they have got from Washington for the 787...

Boeing got a tax cut from Washington state, Airbus can probably get that too in Toulouse, Bremen and Hamburg and at all other manufacturing sites, I would guess they have gotten that earlier too. It's a well know trick to prevent industry from moving, or to get industry to the local area. Japan granted funds to its industry, and that would benefit Airbus too, and all other aircraft manufacturers, if they bought parts from Japan. Are you suggesting that Boeing chose the Japanese manufacturers just because they got subsidies? Get real Adria.

Quoting Adria (Reply 20):
That's why there are so many orders for the passenger version of the 747-8

They have up until now evaluated, together with several airlines, what the 747-8i would be like, that's why there haven't been any orders from a pax airline. Wait a few months, and you will get a little surprise on this front.

[Edited 2006-10-08 16:22:43]
 
Lumberton
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 19):
The WTO has lost all credibility. The American and European farm subsidies are continuing to devastate Africa.

Sadly, I must agree with you. Even if the aircraft "subsidies" issue were to be resolved, the over reaching priority must be the agricultural situation. It's nowhere near resolution, to the devastation of many countries agricultural industries.

Meanwhile, NAV20 posted an IHT article, which sheds further light on another round of political infighting in EADs. I believe this quote is rather ominous, both for the furture tenure of Mr. Streiff, and for EADS' ability to take the "medicine" in the short term.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/08/business/airbus.php

Quote:
According to one person with knowledge of the situation, Enders and his French co-chief executive, Louis Gallois, have grown frustrated by Streiff's perceived indifference to political concerns.
"The thinking is that the job is maybe too big for him," said one of the people, who requested anonymity because of the sensitivity of the matter.

"...perceived indifference to political concerns"? Well, it would be naive to suggest that these concerns aren't a factor, but things aren't going to improve while the politicians squabble. Next week should be interesting....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
zvezda
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:33 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 22):
Ohhh come on Zvezda, the airlines are on a wait and see mode when they consider the A380 (even you mentioned it yourself in one of your previous posts), this happens to all other projects (yes it even happened to the 777...shocking) when they reach this stage of the development...

Of course, just before EIS is not the time we would expect to see a rush of WhaleJet orders, however, if there were unmet demand, we would expect to see some orders. This affect occurs with most airliners, but not all. There has been no slowing of B787 orders.

Quoting Adria (Reply 22):
I know this may seem hard to you but the latest developments around the 747-8 show that airlines want something bigger or more competitive to the A380 and also a look at the orders table says it all...

As I've pointed out a few times, airlines want Airbus and Boeing airliners to be as similar as possible because that forces them to compete directly on price. Since it's too late to pressure Airbus to make the WhaleJet smaller, the only option was to pressure Boeing to make the SuperJumbo bigger. What's striking is that many airlines pressured Boeing not to make it bigger.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 25):
"...perceived indifference to political concerns"?

Indifference to political concerns is a necessary prerequisite to success in saving Airbus.
 
Rheinbote
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 14):
This is a fundamentally flawed argument. The magnitude of crisis that Boeing faced in 1997 doesn't begin to compare with what Airbus now faces.

 checkmark 

Boeing's manufacturing crisis was triggered by a steep ramp-up in production, not by digital design snafus with subsequent loss of configuration control like it's the case with Airbus.
By 1997, Boeing had already implemented and standardized digital design throughout the company. A major effort to come to grips with configuration and resource management was well underway.
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 20):
The current sales are slow due to the phase before EIS for the A380

A380 EIS is now so far in the future that there had better be a pick up in sales very soon. As dicussed in other threads, this needs to be in the 40-50 per year range.

2007/2008 will be critical years for A380 sales/marketing.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Stitch
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
Who's then funding the costs to built factories in Japan??

Even if the Japanese government is funding those factories, they cannot tell Boeing to buy their product from them because Boeing is not held, in whole or in part, by the Japanese government.

Yes, Boeing no doubt was influenced in choosing those suppliers because it landed them an 80 frame order from NH and JL, but if Mitsubishi and Fuji had no clue on how to build those parts and another part of the world did, Boeing would not have given those contracts (at least in their entirety) to Japan.

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
Boeing was also loud on saying "point-to-point" is the way to go...but here they are stretching the 747-8 to make it more competitive against the A380. Why bother if the market is really so small?

Boeing has offered larger stretches of the 747 at least since the mid-1990s with the 747-500 and 747-600. However, the "Asian Financial Flu" crippled most Asian flag carriers who were expected to be the primary purchasers of the planes. That gave Airbus a breather to get the A3XX developed and present it as a superior alternative to a stretched 747. It became clear with the 747-X that Boeing would have to develop an all-new VLA to effectively compete against the A380 with the technologies available at the time.

Instead of spending $15 billion on said VLA, they instead spent that money to improve the 777 family and embarked on developing new technologies which resulted in the 787. So instead of selling 80 to 160 VLAs since January 2000 (when the A380 was offered for sale), they've sold 162 747s. They've also sold 412 777s and 402 787s.

Quoting Adria (Reply 20):
I have nothing against Boeing and Japan but if someone mentions Airbus and subsidies then we have to look at Boeing and Japan and also the loans they have got from Washington for the 787...

The State of Washington has not loaned Boeing a single thin dime.

What they have offered is a 20-year package of incentives to the aerospace industry in the State. These incentives are worth about $3 billion to Boeing over those 20 years, but they have also encouraged other aerospace suppliers and sub-contractors to move to Washington State. Rolls-Royce, for example is considering building a Trent 1000 plant here.

If EADS had decided to build the KC-330 in Washington, they too would have received every incentive Boeing gets. And don't forget that the State of Alabama extended significant subsidies to EADS to win the KC-330 production line and the Airbus Engineering Center.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 8):
The Japanese goverment has no direct connection to Boeing at all. The French and Spanish governments hold shares in EADS, and the German government certainly asserts itself as well. Very different situations.

Who's then funding the costs to built factories in Japan??

They are not Boeing factories. They are Fuji and Mitsubishi factories which are subcontractors for Boeing. So it is not a direct subsidy to Boeing.

And the Japanese government doesn't own a stake in Boeing like France does in Airbus.

[Edited 2006-10-08 17:55:35]
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
osiris30
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 17):
Who's then funding the costs to built factories in Japan??

Those factories in Japan aren't Boeing factories IIRC. They are 'owned' by subcontractors, not Boeing.. I might be wrong, but last time I checked it's not uncommon for local governments to fund major infrastructure projects... I also remember that in ADDITION to lauch aid for the 380 the local governments contributed quite a bit to factories (I think there was nearly 1B eu spent in Germany alone)

Quoting Adria (Reply 20):
Boeing has some weird culture in the company because they are always directly and moronically bashing the competition.

WTF are you talking about?!?!?!? Do you have even half a clue? Boeing hasn't said one bad thing about the Airbus delay, unlike what Airbus said about the 787 when launched. Seriously if they had an ignore list here you would be on mine.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
zamaria
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:06 am

I am a bit confused. Can anyone succintly summarize the problems Boeing had in the late '90s including major root causes and what was done to solve the problems. Or, please provide a link where I can read more.

Thank you very much.

-Z
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1997

Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:09 am

Quoting YVRlonghauler (Reply 15):
So, which one you think is worse?

I would say Airbus in 2006.

The magnitude of A380-800 delays are really unprecedented and Airbus was hit at a time when launching a new products was more critical than Boeing in 1997. In fact, Boeing was in the process of introducing what became (in short order) two highly successful products: the 737NG and 777.
 
zvezda
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1

Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 28):
A380 EIS is now so far in the future that there had better be a pick up in sales very soon. As dicussed in other threads, this needs to be in the 40-50 per year range.

2007/2008 will be critical years for A380 sales/marketing.

As has been discussed before, it is difficult to sell airliners in the two years or so leading up to EIS. With the WhaleJet's EIS repeatedly slipping, sales would be difficult even if there were unmet demand. There is not much chance of any more WhaleJet sales before 2008 -- except perhaps the possibility of firming up SQ's LoI.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Gates: Airbus' Crisis Looks Like Boeing's In 1

Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting Zamaria (Reply 32):
I am a bit confused. Can anyone succintly summarize the problems Boeing had in the late '90s including major root causes and what was done to solve the problems. Or, please provide a link where I can read more.

Here are a few:

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...2567641&date=19971022&query=Boeing

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...2731946&date=19980201&query=Boeing

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...2788785&date=19981213&query=Boeing

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...chType=best&Search.x=17&Search.y=6

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