af773atmsp
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Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:28 pm

Sometimes KLM would stop service to MSP and have NW codeshare service. And then KLM would come back to MSP. What I'm wondering is will KLM come back to MSP? And if KLM Royal Dutch Airlines would come back to MSP, would KLM Asia come back to MSP to?
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Cadet57
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:30 pm

KLM wont due to the NW partnership. KLM Asia wouldent because its just service for what its name implies, asia. Furthermore, nowadays I dont even think KLM Asia exists anywho.
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geebs
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:33 pm

KLM and KLM Royal Dutch Airlines are the same airline....
 
fraspotter
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:33 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
KLM Asia wouldent because its just service for what its name implies, asia. Furthermore, nowadays I dont even think KLM Asia exists anywho.

Asia huh? Than why have I seen it quite a few times at IAH?
"Drunk drivers run stop signs. Stoners wait for them to turn green."
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:36 pm

Where did KL Asia fly to from MSP? I wish KL Asia and KL Royal Dutch would come back to MSP.  Sad I've never seen a KL plane anywhere except at my house and it was 20,000 ft I think coming from YYZ I think.
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kjet12
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
Where did KL Asia fly to from MSP? I wish KL Asia and KL Royal Dutch would come back to MSP. I've never seen a KL plane anywhere except at my house and it was 20,000 ft I think coming from YYZ I think.

IIRC, KLM Asia was invented to get the rights to fly to Taiwan. Swissair, Air France, and British Airways all had Asia planes as well for the same purpose.
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LTU932
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
KLM Asia wouldent because its just service for what its name implies, asia.

KLM Asia is only a name, which they use so they can fly into TPE without upsetting the Mainland Chinese government. It's still the same KLM, just with a different name for TPE flights, and KL Asia aircraft also do Transatlantic flights.
 
Cadet57
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:47 pm

Quoting FRAspotter (Reply 3):
Asia huh? Than why have I seen it quite a few times at IAH?

Because now the birds fly in normal 744 rotation and are scheduled as such.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
BA
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 4):
Where did KL Asia fly to from MSP? I wish KL Asia and KL Royal Dutch would come back to MSP.

KLM Asia is just a subsidiary KLM spun-off and registered in Taiwan so that it could operate flights to Taipei, Taiwan without upsetting Chinese authorities.

When KLM Asia aircraft are not flying to Taipei, they will be deployed on KLM's other routes which is why you would sometimes see KLM Asia planes in MSP.

Other airlines that have spun-off an Asia subsidiary include British Airways with British Asia Airways, Air France with Air France Asia, Japan Airlines with Japan Asia Airways, and Swissair with Swissair Asia.

British Asia Airways and Air France Asia do not exist anymore because British Airways and Air France discontinued their flights to Taiwan.

Swissair's successor, Swiss International Air Lines, does not have an Asia subsidiary as it does not operate flights to Taiwan.
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QFSYD744
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
KLM Asia wouldent because its just service for what its name implies, asia.

Mate, KLM Asia aircraft are not used solely for TPE. From personal experience I have flown the KLM Asia birds from Mexico City to Amsterdam, Amsterdam to Los Angeles, and Amsterdam to Houston. There is no difference, with the exception of a few interior stickers, and signage on the exterior of the aircraft.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
Furthermore, nowadays I dont even think KLM Asia exists anywho

It does, from what I undertand. It exists solely so as that the superiority complex people in Peking dont throw a fit.

What airlines have done for politics over the years....
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Cadet57
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 9):
Mate, KLM Asia aircraft are not used solely for TPE.

I know, read on:

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 7):
Because now the birds fly in normal 744 rotation and are scheduled as such.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:05 pm

What are the chances of KL flying from AMS-MSP with 777s instead of 742s, 744s, or MD11s? Could AF plan service to MSP because AF is partners with KL, and a MSP-CDG route would do nice hopefully.
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QFSYD744
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 11):
What are the chances of KL flying from AMS-MSP with 777s instead of 742s, 744s, or MD11s?

Slim to none. KLM is utlilizing the 777 equipment to high yield business destinations of which MSP is sadly neither.
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ejmmsu
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:19 pm

NW and KL have agreed to use NW metal between AMS and NW hubs... you won't see KL at MSP.. or DTW or MEM for that matter. If you want to fly KL, fly NW to ORD or JFK, IAH, etc.... then catch KLM
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 1:34 pm

NW and KLM act as one across the Atlantic between the United States. As part of the alliance they share revenue and have roughly an equal number of flights between the two.

As said, as part of the agreement, NW will operate their aircraft on all routes from their US hubs, plus some additional city pairs to even the mix (BOS, SEA, EWR this winter).

Since there are multiple flights per day between DTW & MSP and AMS, it makes sense for NW to operate all of the flights to offer a consistent production.

In short, the answer is no, you will not see KLM in MSP anytime soon.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 3:58 pm

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 12):
KLM is utlilizing the 777 equipment to high yield business destinations of which MSP is sadly neither.

That is not entirely correct. The WBC cabin on the KLM B772 is rather small with just 35 seats, and the aircraft are not only used to high yielding business destinations. Currently, the B772 goes, for instance, to destinations like DAR, JRO, CPT and MNL, neither of which are business destinations. In the future, the B772 will also be deployed to LIM, another mainly leisure destination. So, while the B772 is sometimes deployed to business destinations, like DXB and JFK, the aircraft is not uniquely reserved for that.

As for KLM as MSP, or DTW for that matter, is makes more sense to have NW operate these routes, as it is a perfect fit in the operational model, since MSP and DTW are NW hubs. Having NW fly transatlantics from non hub destinations, like the current BOS-AMS operation, is relatively more complicated because the aircraft somehow needs to be repositioned and as such the operation becomes less flexible and relatively more prone to irregularities.
 
mpdpilot
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 4:06 pm

just a side note but you all know that a KLM 777 would look very pretty at DTW in the new terminal even if it won't happen, we can dream
One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:26 pm

When NW was doing codeshare service in 2001 or 2003 KL came back to MSP, but then NW and KL did codeshare service again. How come that happened? And why does the MSP airline list still have KL? KL technically does not fly to MSP.

I'm still going to pray that KL will come back to MSP with a least one KL 777 almost each day. Didn't Minnesota start Target? If Minnesota did then MN is kind of a business place.

 pray 
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bobnwa
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 17):
When NW was doing codeshare service in 2001 or 2003 KL came back to MSP, but then NW and KL did codeshare service again. How come that happened? And why does the MSP airline list still have KL? KL technically does not fly to MSP.

As has been pointed out to you quite a few times, NW and KLM operate as one trans-atlantic. If NW is flying MSP-AMS, so is KLM. IF KLM is flying ORD-AMS, so is NW. All trans-atlantic flights carry both KL and NW flight numbers and the two carriers split the revenue regardless of which flight number. Much more than a code share.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:02 pm

Now I think I get now. So if I see a A330 at MSP is going to AMS the flight number will say (example K1098KL) or something like that?
And the facts you just told me are easier than have regular KL and NW fly to MSP?
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
bobnwa
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 19):
Now I think I get now. So if I see a A330 at MSP is going to AMS the flight number will say (example K1098KL) or something like that?

I think you got it.
 
Jano
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Sun Oct 08, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 19):
Now I think I get now. So if I see a A330 at MSP is going to AMS the flight number will say (example K1098KL) or something like that?

For TATL flights this is the rule for KL coded NW operated flights:
add 6000 to the NW flight number, e.g. we have NW 40, its KL code will be KL6040.

For NW coded KL operated flights add 8000 to the KL flight number to get the NW flight number, e.g KL coded KL operated KL652 is NW coded KL operated NW8652.

As many people prointed here NW and KL have a joint-venture ops for TATL flights. So they split the profits.
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af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:34 am

If KL flys to MSP, why doesn't AF? MSP needs a CDG route with either AF or NW, but would most likely be NW. Or NW and AF could do codeshare service from MSP to CDG to make it easier.
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Jano
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 22):
If KL flys to MSP, why doesn't AF? MSP needs a CDG route with either AF or NW, but would most likely be NW. Or NW and AF could do codeshare service from MSP to CDG to make it easier.

Give it some time and they will. NW did not have a proper plane so far. They even did not have enough A330s for MSP-AMS ops. My hunch is it's going to be soon....
The Widget Air Line :)
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:54 am

Think goodness the MSP-CDG route will be soon.
NW didn't have enough A330s for MSP-AMS? I thought they had plenty.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
bobnwa
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 22):
If KL flys to MSP, why doesn't AF? MSP needs a CDG route with either AF or NW, but would most likely be NW. Or NW and AF could do codeshare service from MSP to CDG to make it easier.

An AF flight to MSP would not have anti trust immunity like the KL/NW relationship. It would strictly be a code share which is different. NW/DL/AF/KL tried for anti trust immunity but it was turned down by the US government. A MSP-CDG flight would have to be supported almost totally from the US side as France is the exception to the rule of Trans-Atlantic flights having more support from the European side than the US side. I'm not positve it would be a success.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:55 am

To Bobnwa

Would this be the same for all Sky Team airlines that don't fly to MSP? And would it be the same for Star Alliance airlines?

How does an airline get permission to start service at a airport it doesn't fly to? And how does an airline stop service at a airport it already has service to?
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Avianca
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
KLM Asia wouldent because its just service for what its name implies, asia. Furthermore, nowadays I dont even think KLM Asia exists anywho.

saw them 4 weeks ago in AUA
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Jano
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 25):
A MSP-CDG flight would have to be supported almost totally from the US side as France is the exception to the rule of Trans-Atlantic flights having more support from the European side than the US side. I'm not positve it would be a success.

But, would not NW codesharing on AF flight beyong CDG help here? I was under the impression (based on this PR*) that NW would put its code on AF flights beound CDG. I suppose NW would be able to feed the MSP-CDG flight too at the CDG end since there would be NW coded Af flights.


* http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/newsc/2006/pr082120061697.html
Effective September 2, 2006 Northwest and Air France will codeshare on each other’s nonstop flights between Detroit and Paris, offering customers more convenient flight options. In addition, the codeshare agreement will be expanded later this fall to include seamless connections for Northwest customers to numerous destinations throughout Europe, Africa and the Middle East, served by Air France from its Paris hub, as well as connections for Air France customers to destinations throughout the USA from Northwest’s Detroit hub.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:42 am

As said, NW has been focusing on retiring the DC-10's from Trans-Atlantic service, replacing them with A330's as they are delivered. That will soon be accomplished in a few weeks. However, the only way that NW is able to accomplish this at the end of October is due to the seasonal reduction in Trans-Atlantic flying to AMS. As more A330's come on line, to fly the full schedule next summer, it is very likely we will see MSP-CDG.

One can see both sides of the fence on this issue. O&D for MSP-CDG doesn't exist, and there are very few city pairs (except for small ones in the upper midwest) that don't have connecting service to CDG through DTW. Plus, as what recently occured with the NW & AF DTW-CDG flights now codesharing, it can be assuming than an MSP-CDG flight would have the same. This, however, may cut into the MSP-AMS traffic, as passengers would not connect through CDG instead of AMS or vise-versa. CO has said the CLE will get CDG service in 2008, so its a reasonable expectation that A332 service to CDG from MSP may happen along the same timeline.

So it really depends on how the market pans out, and how the Skyteam alliances continue to evolve.
 
Jano
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:55 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 29):
O&D for MSP-CDG doesn't exist,

Are there any data, publicly available, on how much traffic there is between the given city pair?
The Widget Air Line :)
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:11 am

In the 2004 Airline Competition Plan on the MSP website it said "two international flag carriers have thought about service at MSP". What airlines are they?
My guesses:
AF and LH
AF and BA
LH and BA
AF and Virgin Atlantic
AF and Aer Lingus
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
burnsie28
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:02 pm

Probably Mexicana, Westjet, and thats probably about it. The only other one that might see a shot is Finnair or SAS with the large scandanavian population in the upper midwest.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:14 pm

Finnair & SAS......no way.

Yes, there may be a large population of Scandanavian decenants in the area, but its not like there is a lot of VFR traffic, let alone virtually zero business ties.

If any one its the big boys....LH, BA, AF.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:54 pm

NW already has non stop service to LGW so BA I doubt. My best guess is AF and LH.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
SESGDL
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 29):
O&D for MSP-CDG doesn't exist

I actually have seen that there are over 150 daily MSP-CDG O&D passengers, so there is O&D. MSP has a metro area of over 3.2 million, so there's definitely a demand.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 31):
In the 2004 Airline Competition Plan on the MSP website it said "two international flag carriers have thought about service at MSP". What airlines are they?

The two carriers were AF and LH. AF is now out of the question with MSP-CDG being a possible NW route in the future. LH is still up in the air but there were LH executives in MSP last year looking at a potential FRA-MSP service.

Jeremy
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:00 am

Well you supported my statement.....what I meant by doesn't exist, is meaning there isn't enough O&D between MSP & CDG to support daily service alone, and would need a significant amount of connecting traffic....traffic that could easily be sent through AMS in Europe.

150 daily passengers can't support the route.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:36 am

Alitalia (correct me if I'm wrong on the Italian airline name) to be another carrier at MSP. When I look at concourse G at MSP this is what I see, red tail, red tail, red tail, red tail, sometimes Icelandair tail, and red tail. I hope to see a LH tail in the future.

Question: If LH flew to MSP would the HHH (Hubert H. Humphrey ) Terminal be expanded? In the MSP 2020 Vision Plan it says "all non sky team airlines would move to the HHH Terminal. LH is a Star Alliance partner.
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
SESGDL
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class=quote target=_blank>PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 36):
150 daily passengers can't support the route.

DTW has less than 300 as well, so there's not enough O&D there either. Connections make everything at MSP and DTW. Do you think O&D supports DL's ATL-CPH route?

Jeremy
 
lovinitflyboy
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:18 pm

Quoting Kjet12 (Reply 5):
IIRC, KLM Asia was invented to get the rights to fly to Taiwan. Swissair, Air France, and British Airways all had Asia planes as well for the same purpose.

Qantas had one to!
 
QFSYD744
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 37):
Alitalia (correct me if I'm wrong on the Italian airline name) to be another carrier at MSP

What????  rotfl 

Alitalia back in the late 90's had planned on operating the 747-200 on FCO-DTW, at that time KL/NW/AZ were all buddy-buddy and Northwest was flying MXP-DTW, FCO-DTW with the DC-10 as well.
I Still Call Australia Home
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:00 pm

DTW always gets the big international carriers. Detroit isn't New York City!
What international carrier has never looked at DTW?

Are any of these airlines good to go at MSP:
LH
BA
AF
Emirates
Air Tahiti Nui
Zoom Airlines
Aer Lingus
Czech Airlines
Aero Mexico
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
kjet12
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:09 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 41):
Are any of these airlines good to go at MSP:
LH
BA
AF
Emirates
Air Tahiti Nui
Zoom Airlines
Aer Lingus
Czech Airlines
Aero Mexico

I really hope you are joking. You have asked about these carriers coming to MSP in some of your previous threads. You even said BA was doubtful since NW already flew to LGW. What can possibly make you think that some of those carriers would even be interested in flying to MSP?

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 34):
NW already has non stop service to LGW so BA I doubt.

The only carrier that is likely on that list is AF. I don't know if or when AF will come to MSP, but it seems the most logical.
AA - Doing what we do best.
 
KingAir200
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 41):
DTW always gets the big international carriers. Detroit isn't New York City!

You're right. It certainly isn't JFK. That's why only BA, LH, AF, and RJ fly there.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 41):
Are any of these airlines good to go at MSP:
LH
BA
AF
Emirates
Air Tahiti Nui
Zoom Airlines
Aer Lingus
Czech Airlines
Aero Mexico

Good to go?

For about the 500th time.....NO!

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 37):
Question: If LH flew to MSP would the HHH (Hubert H. Humphrey ) Terminal be expanded?

Why, for 1 flight? That would happen at most 3x week. Which is VERY unlikely at this time.

Quoting Af773atmsp (Reply 37):
Alitalia (correct me if I'm wrong on the Italian airline name) to be another carrier at MSP

??
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:47 am

Ok maybe not good to go, but are any of these airlines looking at MSP?

You're right, I did say BA was doubtful at MSP. I was just asking, but BA at MSP is very doubtful.

Where does RJ fly from DTW?
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:02 am

KLM will probably never come back to MSP because of the parternship with NW and the SkyTeam. The only way KLM comes back to MSP is if something very bad happened to NW. I think KLM should start flying to SEA.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:27 am

RJ flies to Amman, Jordan, due to the large Middle Eastern population in Metro Detroit (largest in the USA)

KLM will not fly to SEA per the alliance, AMS-SEA is a NW route, since SEA is a A330 crew base.

All of the airlines you mention are very doubtful at best.
As said the only possibility would be AF, but its 50/50 to say whether NW will operate MSP-CDG, or if it will be AF
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Will KLM Come Back To MSP?

Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:48 am

I thought AF was out because NW was proposing MSP-CDG route. Its sad that I'll never see KL at MSP unless its a diversion.  Sad
It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!

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