roseflyer
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Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:32 am

For those that may experience discomfort on long haul flights, the 787 will make some evolutionary changes to make the flying experience better. Effort is being put in to make passengers more comfortable, which hopefully will result in more passengers flying long haul and better sales. Passenger comfort is being put as a priority. Boeing has worked with one of its key suppliers, Hamilton Sundstrand, to produce an environment like no other on its latest airplane.


  • The 787 will have the cleanest air of any airplane in existance. The air will have the same microbial content of ouside air with air filters with an efficiency of 99.97%.

  • Cabin pressure will be at approximately 6,000ft compared to 8,000ft which is the current standard.

  • Humidity will be 14%, which is about twice that of current airliners. This can happen because of the composite structure having less proplems with condensation and a complex circulation system that takes dryer air out of the cabin and moves it through the lining between the cabin and exterior of the plane.

Source: Flight International
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...82/787+special+Breathe+easier.html

[Edited 2006-10-08 20:38:06]
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:37 am

It will be interesting to see how these benefits translate into actual use. I for one am looking forward to the extra humidity, as I drink water by the quart on a plane. Don't notice the atmosphere so much...
 
N231YE
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:52 am

Interesting that Boeing is making a move with fresh air ventilation (not really mentioned here). Remember, it was Boeing who introduced the recirculated air system starting with the 757, because it saved fuel. If the 787 is all about efficiency and fuel savings, I wonder why Boeing would revert to the old way of doing things?
 
bhmbaglock
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:02 am

It's also worth noting, although I haven't noticed anybody else pointing it out, that the absolute humidity will be increased somewhat due to the lower effective pressurized altitude of the aircraft, i.e. saturated (100% RH) air at 6000' has more water vapor than saturated air at 8000'.
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 2):
If the 787 is all about efficiency and fuel savings, I wonder why Boeing would revert to the old way of doing things?

The HVAC systems on the 787 are electric instead of pneumatic, so fuel consumption may not apply (or the fuel needed to drive the generators is less then the fuel needed to recirculate pneumatic air).
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
Cabin pressure will be at approximately 6,000ft compared to 8,000ft which is the current standard.

At what cruise altitude will it achieve a cabin of 6000', i.e. what is the pressure diff ?

Was the cabin altitude lower at launch ?
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Rheinbote
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
The HVAC systems on the 787 are electric instead of pneumatic, so fuel consumption may not apply (or the fuel needed to drive the generators is less then the fuel needed to recirculate pneumatic air).

But then the 787 is going to have two comparably large scoop-type ram air intakes feeding electric compressors for cabin air pressurization. That means added drag, maybe in the order of 1...2 cts? Will be interesting to see how all this is going to pan out.
 
bringiton
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:32 am

I am also dying to see to what extent these design features make REAL TIME improvment in a long range enviroment .
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
At what cruise altitude will it achieve a cabin of 6000', i.e. what is the pressure diff ?

Was the cabin altitude lower at launch ?

The 6000' cabin altitude will be available for all cruise altitudes in the flight envelope. The differential pressure will vary depending on actual airplane altitude.

The 6000' cabin altitude was the level selected at Program launch.
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mkirch72
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:41 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
The 787 will have the cleanest air of any airplane in existance. The air will have the same microbial content of ouside air with air filters with an efficiency of 99.97%.


Cabin pressure will be at approximately 6,000ft compared to 8,000ft which is the current standard.


Humidity will be 14%, which is about twice that of current airliners. This can happen because of the composite structure having less proplems with condensation and a complex circulation system that takes dryer air out of the cabin and moves it through the lining between the cabin and exterior of the plane.

Boeing can tout this as much as they want, but the only real comfort improvement that most people care about is in the hands of the airlines themselves - improving the comfort and legroom of their seats. As we all know, this will never happen as they need to cram as many bodies on the plane as possible. So all this will really make zero difference for the average passenger when trying to decide which airline to fly.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 6):
But then the 787 is going to have two comparably large scoop-type ram air intakes feeding electric compressors for cabin air pressurization.

I don't know where the system will draw it's air from, but it evidently isn't impacting 787 performance since nobody has brought it up as a negative...  Smile
 
bringiton
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 9):
Boeing can tout this as much as they want, but the only real comfort improvement that most people care about is in the hands of the airlines themselves - improving the comfort and legroom of their seats. As we all know, this will never happen as they need to cram as many bodies on the plane as possible. So all this will really make zero difference for the average passenger when trying to decide which airline to fly.

Altough space does have an impact it isnt the only factor which results in comfort , I want higher humidity and I beleive that given an option between (higher and lower)most would too , Same thing with clean air , larger bins , mood lighting etc etc ultimately the goal is to make the JOURNEY far more pleasant for the passenger which these features aboard the 787 and a350 do !
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 9):
Boeing can tout this as much as they want, but the only real comfort improvement that most people care about is in the hands of the airlines themselves - improving the comfort and legroom of their seats. As we all know, this will never happen as they need to cram as many bodies on the plane as possible. So all this will really make zero difference for the average passenger when trying to decide which airline to fly.

Well the airlines do have some incredibly comfortable seats on board their planes. First and Business class are quite comfortable and airlines really care about those passengers. If an airline can advertise that they have higher humidity and higher pressure on their flights on the brand new 787, then they might have a competitive advantage.

Sure economy passengers will still suffer on long haul flights, but long haul flights will still be less of a strain on the body. This is true for everyone on board including first class, business class, flight attendants and pilots. It will be a better plane to work on. Everyone will feel better after a long 12 hour flight, which will overall be a good thing. Improved comfort will be nice even though it still will be difficult for those in economy.
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AnneTooh
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 2):
Interesting that Boeing is making a move with fresh air ventilation (not really mentioned here). Remember, it was Boeing who introduced the recirculated air system starting with the 757, because it saved fuel. If the 787 is all about efficiency and fuel savings, I wonder why Boeing would revert to the old way of doing things?



Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
The HVAC systems on the 787 are electric instead of pneumatic, so fuel consumption may not apply (or the fuel needed to drive the generators is less then the fuel needed to recirculate pneumatic air).

In general you can put it pretty simple:

The pressurization of the 787 will be achieved by electrically driven compressors (?). In case they are shaft driven from the engine gear box it will be the same principle, some degree of power is taken off the rotating engine.

The recirculation fans are electrically driven. So there is no difference in how the power for them is produced.

Nowadays they use compressed air taken out of the engine before it gets into the combustion chamber. That however increases the required flow of air quite a bit and reduces the engines effectivity far more because the stoichiometric (ideal) air / fuel ratio in the combustion chamber is negatively affected. With no bleed air taken it will be possible to have this ratio and thus the engine performance always at the optimum level for the required power / thrust output.

So if you then have to decide whether to recirculate air or whether you supply only fresh air and both would happen with the same amount of energy, why not dump the old air and get fresh air only? Performance is not affected since it's the same amount of (electrical or electrical in combination with mechanical) power requirement.

The really critical question will be how much the engine manufacturer will be able to optimize the engine with no bleed air and how reliable the compressors will be. I can only assume that they use a principle that guarantees pressurized air as long as any engine is running with a kind of fail safe idea. Perhaps radial compression?

In general I assume that it will be hard to tell the difference right away as a passenger on board but in combination with the lower cabin altitude I think that you will feel a lot fresher at the end of your journey, not necessarily knowing what you owe it to.

And then, just not to let you think I know all this for sure: That's all just an educated guess. Details are to be asked directly from Boeing...
 
777fan
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:07 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 1):
I for one am looking forward to the extra humidity, as I drink water by the quart on a plane.

I couldn't agree more with you on this point. The lower pressurization level should also help young children who often have trouble clearing their ears (which leads to crying!).

777fan
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antares
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 6:52 am

But why are the long haul flights I take today announced as having 7000 feet cabin pressure instead of 8000. You don't hear these announcements all that much these days, but in the early jet age they were routine. 707s, DC8s and Comet IVs and VC-10s all had 7000 feet. Concorde was announced at 6000 feet on the few occasions I can remember.

That aside, I like the sound of the cleaner air. As for humidity retention on board, that is all about other people's arm pits and perspiration. Thank goodness for the hepa filters they are using.

If the diagram of an interior in Flight International recently is any guide, this isn't going to be much of a spacious experience, although I'm sure the airlines will not install the miserably tight looking premium cabin seating you can glimpse.

I'd really like to see Qantas use the 787-3 for its Cityflyer 767 replacements, since that seems to give shareholders a lighter more fuel efficient jet than the -8, and I'm sure it will offer far better amenity than anything else we are likely to see in the next 10 years, perhaps supported by the larger Embraers which are the subject of so many elusive rumors concerning Qantaslink and Virgin Blue.

Antares
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting AnneTooh (Reply 13):
The pressurization of the 787 will be achieved by electrically driven compressors (?). In case they are shaft driven from the engine gear box it will be the same principle, some degree of power is taken off the rotating engine.

It will be electric pumps and not shaftpower from the gearbox from the engine.

Don't forget that inefficiencies always exist. Pneumatic power does not have the same efficiency as electric power in these cases, so less energy is wasted by using electricity. Power generation is usually only about 30% efficient, but the electrical generators on the 787 are the most advanced ever made.
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satx
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:17 am

I fly long-haul from time to time, always in coach. The 787's air filtration sounds nice, but the rest is almost meaningless compared to better seat pitch and more comfortable seats. Having to pay 3-6x the cost of my coach ticket is what prevents me from buying an F or J ticket.
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N231YE
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting AnneTooh (Reply 13):

Thanks, I like the technical explanation there.
 
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autothrust
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:56 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 4):
The HVAC systems on the 787 are electric instead of pneumatic, so fuel consumption may not apply (or the fuel needed to drive the generators is less then the fuel needed to recirculate pneumatic air).

That has yet to be proven. Airbus says there isnt enough weight/ fuel efficiency gain in a bleedless system over a normal pneumatic. However i assume it will be easier maintaining a bleedless system.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
* Cabin pressure will be at approximately 6,000ft compared to 8,000ft which is the current standard.

* Humidity will be 14%, which is about twice that of current airliners. This can happen because of the composite structure having less proplems with condensation and a complex circulation system that takes dryer air out of the cabin and moves it through the lining between the cabin and exterior of the plane.


Old news, not really interesting facts about the 787.  bored 
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MMEPHX
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:16 am

why is everyone so "excited" about the new comforts of the 787? Airlines are still going to cram 17" wide seats @ 31" pitch in the back where most of us sit. Until they can figure out a way for more space and still make money (or I can afford the big dollars to sit in the front section) I doubt I'll be any more comfortable in a new 787 than I am in a 777, 330, 340 etc.
 
koruman
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:24 am

I'm joking, but maybe you should re-baptise yourself Rose-tinted! (I mean no offence,)

The 787 promises to be the least comfortable aircraft I can imagine for the poor folk stuck in Economy Class. Just as the A380 is going to have extra seats, not bowling alleys, the B787 is generally going to have 10 economy passengers per row, which is going to be uncomfortable at 3-4-3 instead of 3-3-3.

When even Qantas opted for 3-4-3, I realised that the 787 is going to be an absolute nightmare.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 20):
I'm joking, but maybe you should re-baptise yourself Rose-tinted! (I mean no offence,)

The 787 promises to be the least comfortable aircraft I can imagine for the poor folk stuck in Economy Class. Just as the A380 is going to have extra seats, not bowling alleys, the B787 is generally going to have 10 economy passengers per row, which is going to be uncomfortable at 3-4-3 instead of 3-3-3.

I don't mean to sound arrogant, but I don't think I'll fly the 787 much in economy since at least now, my long haul travel has all been in first and business class. I know most don't get that luxury, but the 787 will cater very well to people that do sit up front.

Also like I said, these benefits will also help the crews. And afterall, at least it is a small improvement for economy passengers. Sure it will be the same miserable seat, but at least the environment might be just a tad bit nicer.

I haven't heard of 10 abreast in the 787. I have only heard talk about 8 or 9 abreast seating. Is it wide enough for 10 abreast? Very few airlines put 10 abreast in the 777, and it is wider than the 787 will be.
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mkirch72
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
Sure economy passengers will still suffer on long haul flights, but long haul flights will still be less of a strain on the body. This is true for everyone on board including first class, business class, flight attendants and pilots. It will be a better plane to work on. Everyone will feel better after a long 12 hour flight, which will overall be a good thing. Improved comfort will be nice even though it still will be difficult for those in economy.

I couldn't disagree more!

Unless you are 4'11, the only thing you will be thinking about during a long haul flight is how uncomfortable you are in your seat.

If the airlines want to advertise to the filthy rich about their improved humidity - fine. I hope it works for them. For the average Joe stuck in economy, he's not going to give a darn about the increased humidity.

And unless you're filthy rich, or have elite status, you won't be flying in those comfy seats up front. Lest we forget - the majority of people on a plane are in coach, not first/business.

My point is -- for the average person, this is not going to matter at all. For the person who can afford first/business on long-haul, maybe.
 
mkirch72
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:08 pm

Quoting SATX (Reply 17):
I fly long-haul from time to time, always in coach. The 787's air filtration sounds nice, but the rest is almost meaningless compared to better seat pitch and more comfortable seats. Having to pay 3-6x the cost of my coach ticket is what prevents me from buying an F or J ticket.

Exactly. Couldn't agree more.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 22):
Also like I said, these benefits will also help the crews. And afterall, at least it is a small improvement for economy passengers. Sure it will be the same miserable seat, but at least the environment might be just a tad bit nicer.

Oh - thank you so much for our increased humidity!! That has made me completely forget about the metal tray table supports jammed into the soft of my knees -- or the fact that my legs have gone numb because I can't move them for lack of seat pitch. Or my stiff neck and back ache. Let's not forget my sore backside from that lush half inch of cushioning.

Thank you so much for turning my nightmare into a humid heaven!!!
 
rpaillard
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:14 pm

Hi,

Don't want to break the Party there but that basically false. The 787 will not have best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever. I call it a big PR joke.

Just take a look at that vintage pictures than you could find on the web and/or books.

Some think that the 787 will accommodate 3-3-3 configuration. We will still suffer almost indecent accommodation in Y configuration. Let's face it: it's NOT a pleasure to spend 8hours+ nowadays in a plane, at least in Economy.

So OK, clean air and lower pressure is a good move, but call it Best Cabin Comfort Ever is nothing more than fuck*** marketing. That's of course not Boeing's monopoly  Wink

My 2 cents from ... Boeing Field.

Raphael
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brendows
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 25):
Some think that the 787 will accommodate 3-3-3 configuration. We will still suffer almost indecent accommodation in Y configuration. Let's face it: it's NOT a pleasure to spend 8hours+ nowadays in a plane, at least in Economy.

So OK, clean air and lower pressure is a good move, but call it Best Cabin Comfort Ever is nothing more than fuck*** marketing. That's of course not Boeing's monopoly

Let's put it this way: the cabin environment on the 787 may become be the best ever, what the level of comfort will be is up to the airlines when they decide what configuration they will have (remember, some airlines will offer eight abreast in Y.) Is that something you can agree on?
 
koruman
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:43 pm

There seems to be some disagreement too as to whether the 787 will offer great luxury for First and Business class passengers like Rose.

If you look at Boeing's marketing, they are putting forward the idea of ultra-light seating even at the pointy end. But the best premium products today (e.g. Virgin's Upper Class Suite) weight many times more than a conventional business class seat. Just as airlines jettisoned any thought of a bowling alley or restaurant or casino on an A380, in order to maximise the seat count, I suspect that the 787 may end up having a little less lie-flat luxury in its premium classes.
 
rpaillard
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting Brendows (Reply 26):
Is that something you can agree on?

No, really no. 787 will never become the Best Ever. Well, maybe in VIP configuration/Business Jet but never on PAX configuration.

I give my full support to Boeing for better air and lower pressure. Big up for that. But Business is Business, and Boeing just do what Airlines ask for: ROI

I don't like the way we fly nowadays. Magic of flight is gone. That's unfortunately the "price" for low fares. I'm glad to fly between BIQ and, say, SFO, via CDG, round trip for less than €1,000. But I will never feel being in the "Best Cabin Comfort Ever" in any modern Jet, at least in Y.

Raphael
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bringiton
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 1:48 pm

Seating is one aspect of making flight better and is upto the airlines , however reducing jet lag goes a long way in giving a better experience to the passenger and there the higher humidity and lower cabin pressure aswell as mood lighting go a long long way.
 
BandA
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:00 pm

so does all of this mean that I wont get a dry-nose in a 787? if so, then to me this makes a lot of difference, even if everything else remains the same (ie 17" wide seats with 31" pitch), atleast I will be slightly more comforable in economy class than I am now.
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JayinKitsap
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:38 pm

The airlines decide on what is the seat configuration and what seats are being used. Referring to Seat Guru http://seatguru.com/charts/intl_economy.php for international coach the seat widths appear to be between 17" and 18" for all types except for one 18.2" on American 777. There are a lot of seats at 17" on both Airbus and Boeing planes. So why is there incredible moaning about the narrow 17.2" seats on the 787 IF the airline installs 9 across.

In premium, the cabin is wider than the 767, 330, and 340 so it will be easier to install a better arrangement to define their product than is available currently except on the 777 and 747. Why would an airline that has a new plane with a better payload to MTOW ratio decide to cram more seats into the 787 than they currently do in their existing fleet. But again, that is their choice.

Boeing has provided the capability to adjust cabin fresh air to the number of passengers, have lower cabin altitude than previous by 2,000 feet (at maximum altitude, it will be 2,000 feet lower than on other planes at all altitudes). It will also allow for higher humidities using the moisture already in the plane.

The thread was about cabin air (altitude and humidity) not about how many seats can be crammed in. It would be nice if people stay generally on topic.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:46 pm

Quoting Koruman (Reply 21):
When even Qantas opted for 3-4-3, I realised that the 787 is going to be an absolute nightmare.

I was unaware that QF , or any other airline for that matter , had yet released internal layouts for their 787s - do you have a source for this ?
 
antares
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:18 pm

Again, a query about cabin pressure. Has Boeing moved the marker to look better. When cabin pressure is announced these days it is usually 7000 feet, so while I accept that 6,000 feet will be much better, why pretend every jet is going around with 8000 feet cabin pressure.

The 787 will like all jets be as good as the airlines allow it to be. And this isn't just a problem that is only just happening. When I first flew in an airliner in the late 40s you had DC-3s with two by one seating and before long in New South Wales there were two by two DC-3s about the time they started flying Skymaster DC-4s which were two by two and actually quite roomy even if you wondered sometimes if they were going to shake themselves into pieces.

Antares
 
brendows
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting Rpaillard (Reply 28):

No, really no. 787 will never become the Best Ever. Well, maybe in VIP configuration/Business Jet but never on PAX configuration.

Mark, with:

Quoting Brendows (Reply 26):
the cabin environment on the 787 may become be the best ever,

I was thinking of the cabin pressure, humidity, air quality etc, and NOT how the seats are arranged (since Boeing doesn't decide how the interior configuration is going to be.)
 
Rj111
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:52 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Thread starter):
Cabin pressure will be at approximately 6,000ft compared to 8,000ft which is the current standard.

Which is an increase in pressure of 11% and not 25% as might be interpreted. If you take 7000 feet as the standard then the increase is 5%.

Still, 5% in the right direction.
 
Joni
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:25 pm

Any info about the noise level?
 
Tod
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 9:35 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 33):
Again, a query about cabin pressure. Has Boeing moved the marker to look better. When cabin pressure is announced these days it is usually 7000 feet, so while I accept that 6,000 feet will be much better, why pretend every jet is going around with 8000 feet cabin pressure.

The current FAA type design maximum is 8000.
Ref: 14CFR25.841

Few airline operate right at the maximum.
Most domestic flights that I've traveled vary between 7000 - 7600.
Most long hauls have been 5600 - 6400.
Bragging that the 787 has the design capacity to operate within 6000 is just sales PR gibberish.

When it comes to humdity, there are aftermarket and some OEM humidifiers currently available. Althought corrosion is a concern, the biggest problem is what grows in the ducting when additional moisture is present.

Tod
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:31 pm

Quoting MMEPHX (Reply 20):
why is everyone so "excited" about the new comforts of the 787?

Because even if we end up "crammed" in the back in 3+3+3 at least we won't be so dried out and breathing as hard.  Smile

Quoting Koruman (Reply 21):
The 787 promises to be the least comfortable aircraft I can imagine for the poor folk stuck in Economy Class. Just as the A380 is going to have extra seats, not bowling alleys, the B787 is generally going to have 10 economy passengers per row, which is going to be uncomfortable at 3-4-3 instead of 3-3-3.

I find that statement to be bollocks. First of all, I don't think you can fit 10-abreast in a 787 unless you restrict your passengers to 12-years or under or you are flying a supermodel charter flight.

And even if you could, many, if not most, 777 operators fly in 3+3+3 or 2+5+2 instead of 3+4+3. Just as most A330/A340 operators fly with 2+4+2 instead of 3+3+3.

Just because you "can" do something doesn't mean you "must" do something.
 
baroque
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Mon Oct 09, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting AnneTooh (Reply 13):
I can only assume that they use a principle that guarantees pressurized air as long as any engine is running with a kind of fail safe idea. Perhaps radial compression?

Can you explain that? I can see they need a back up but not sure what your are suggesting that it is.

Quoting Koruman (Reply 21):

When even Qantas opted for 3-4-3, I realised that the 787 is going to be an absolute nightmare.

Yes it will, but it will be a great selling point for the Never Whale (with apologies to the P40s, they were only some months late) if and when it flies in QF.

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 24):
Oh - thank you so much for our increased humidity!! That has made me completely forget about the metal tray table supports jammed into the soft of my knees -- or the fact that my legs have gone numb because I can't move them for lack of seat pitch. Or my stiff neck and back ache. Let's not forget my sore backside from that lush half inch of cushioning.

Sounds as if your legs have the same geometry and nerve system as mine Mkirch72. Once the pain starts, just the lightest of touches is sheer agony. I find that by twisting, I can get the pressure off one knee, but then need to turn and spread the agony. Compared with all those symptoms, whatever my nose is telling me comes a poor 5th.

Wonder how long a Stitch is?
 
mkirch72
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 31):
The thread was about cabin air (altitude and humidity) not about how many seats can be crammed in. It would be nice if people stay generally on topic.

Look at the title of the thread. "Best cabin air/comfort ever". Now I may be a simpleton, but I have never heard anyone in my life say, "Boy - this cabin air is really comfortable!".

The title, as written, states "cabin air/comfort". I interpreted that as "best cabin air" and/or "best cabin comfort". My point was - if you are talking about cabin comfort, seats are in the cabin, and they determine pax comfort. To have a thread title with "cabin comfort" in it, and not discuss seating is like unveiling a new car with the most comfortable interior ever and not discussing the seats.

I also pointed out originally that all this talk about cabin pressure/humidity will be meaningless to the average pax in Y. In other words - much ado about nothing.
 
Tod
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 40):
all this talk about cabin pressure/humidity will be meaningless to the average pax in Y

Even Y pax can experience dehyration.
In fact cabin humidity is even more valuable to the Y pax than F or J during a long flight.

When you are up front and want to avoid dehydration, its just as simple as "hey drink lady, how 'bouts some more water over here" J/K  Wink

Tod
 
Areopagus
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):
Quoting AnneTooh (Reply 13):
The pressurization of the 787 will be achieved by electrically driven compressors (?). In case they are shaft driven from the engine gear box it will be the same principle, some degree of power is taken off the rotating engine.

It will be electric pumps and not shaftpower from the gearbox from the engine.

I think he meant the required electrical power would come from generators that take engine shaft power.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):
Don't forget that inefficiencies always exist. Pneumatic power does not have the same efficiency as electric power in these cases, so less energy is wasted by using electricity. Power generation is usually only about 30% efficient, but the electrical generators on the 787 are the most advanced ever made.

A little more of Boeing's take on that can be found at FI's article, 787 special: Electric dream. They expect to save energy and weight.
 
Lemurs
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 33):
Again, a query about cabin pressure. Has Boeing moved the marker to look better. When cabin pressure is announced these days it is usually 7000 feet, so while I accept that 6,000 feet will be much better, why pretend every jet is going around with 8000 feet cabin pressure.

Boeing has quoted a study they've done that shows the biggest bang for the buck in terms of avoiding altitude induced discomfort/sickness is 6,000ft. At that cabin altitude, somelike like 97% of the currently occuring cases of altitude induced passenger problems go away. I have no reason to disbelieve them, but then you have to look at it this way: Altitude sickness is very rare from what I can tell, and even discomfort is not something many people notice...so a 90+% reduction of a very small number is not really so eyepopping. It's still nice, but when you're talking about .1% versus 1%, it's not the kind of thing to make people do summersaults.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 38):
I find that statement to be bollocks. First of all, I don't think you can fit 10-abreast in a 787 unless you restrict your passengers to 12-years or under or you are flying a supermodel charter flight.

I tell you what would be bollocks...any red blooded heterosexual man who refused to get onto that airplane, seat discomfort be damned!  Wink
There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
 
Areopagus
Posts: 1327
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:27 am

I suspect that carbon fiber's increased tensile strength relative to buckling strength (please correct me if that's wrong) means that the structure will undergo less fatigue when operated at higher differential pressure. If so, then the increased comfort of lower cabin altitude is a bonus that they can then advertise as if it were the original objective.
 
mkirch72
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2005 10:00 pm

RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 41):
Even Y pax can experience dehyration.
In fact cabin humidity is even more valuable to the Y pax than F or J during a long flight.

But when discussing overall comfort of a cabin, it wouldn't even come up. It may be a secondary concern, but my point with my original posting was that this enhancement will make little difference to the average Y pax when half of their body has gone numb and the other is in pain.
 
roseflyer
Posts: 9606
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RE: Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting Mkirch72 (Reply 45):
But when discussing overall comfort of a cabin, it wouldn't even come up. It may be a secondary concern, but my point with my original posting was that this enhancement will make little difference to the average Y pax when half of their body has gone numb and the other is in pain.

While I understand your point, I still think these advancements are good. To compare some of the 787 improvements to another real life example, take an small apartment. You might have a tiny 300 sq. ft apartment that is really cramped, and you can't afford to change that, but would your life improve if you painted the walls? How about if you added a new air conditioner? How about new curtains? What about a new air filter?

All these are similar to what will happen in the 787. Mood lighting will improve the atmosphere like painting the walls. A new air conditioner is like creating a more humid environment. New curtains are like the new fading windows. A new air filter is like having cleaner filters on the plane.

Sure those differences aren't huge, but they still are nice and will make life just a little bit more pleasant in that 300 sq. ft apartment. The same are true for a seat on the 787. Economy is like that 300 sq. ft apartment, business class is a reasonable house and first class is the million dollar mansion, but there are benefits to be had by all.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!

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