Pe@rson
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Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:40 am

There are, as you’d expect, plenty of flights between YYZ and key nearby US cities, such as NYC, WAS, BOS, DTW, PHL and CHI.

What are the loads like on those routes?

How many are O&D?

Despite their short block times (up to about 1.5 hours), they seem, to my eyes, to be very expensive: USD$300-450 tax-inclusive for a return.

Of those routes, which, in terms of demand, do you think are the top 3?

[Edited 2006-10-09 20:48:46]
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N1120A
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:57 am

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
How many are O&D?

Most, though you will get connections, particularly through the big hubs.

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
What are the loads like on those routes?

Quite good.

Quoting Pe@rson (Thread starter):
Despite their short block times (up to about 1.5 hours), they seem, to my eyes, to be very expensive: USD$300-450 tax-inclusive for a return.

That is what I call the "magic border effect". It has nothing to do with taxes, as many think, as that only makes about $30 USD difference in the price. The reason is that the airlines have figured out that crossing the border can change people's minds about how much to pay. Further, there is no real LCC competition on transborder routes, particularly to eastern Canada. That is why so many people fly into BUF for Southwestern Ontario and BTV for Montreal
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elal106
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:39 am

Doesnt YYZ have some of the most expensive landing fees in North America?
 
N1120A
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:45 am

Quoting Elal106 (Reply 2):
Doesnt YYZ have some of the most expensive landing fees in North America?

Whether it does or doesn't doesn't make a $200 difference in ticket price, nor does it affect prices at YUL, which is run by Aeroports de Montreal and not the GTAA. It is advantage pricing (read: gouging) by the carriers. If that wasn't the case, AA couldn't dream of affording to run $106 round trips at times on BOS-YYZ, nor could they run the occaissional $269 RT on LAX-YYZ. Anyway, this is why I fly to BUF.
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DTWAGENT
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:23 am

You are correct. I just read in a magazine call "Airports" that YYZ is the most expensive airport as far as landing fees in North America.

For us in DTW. We just go to Winsor and take the train to YYZ. It is about $200 cheaper then flying from DTW or Winsor.

Chuck
 
N1120A
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 4):
For us in DTW. We just go to Winsor and take the train to YYZ. It is about $200 cheaper then flying from DTW or Winsor.

I take it you mean Windsor?
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jamincan
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 5):
I take it you mean Windsor?

Naw, that's not the modern way.  Wink
 
hjulicher
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:42 pm

If you're from DTW, isn't just faster to drive? Anyways, I think NW has a pretty big YYZ operation since it's the best connecting facility unless you're flying directly. I highly doubt that many people from the DTW metro are flying to YYZ when you can drive in 4 hours, which would be faster than flying with airport times and what not.
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tinpusher007
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:09 am

I have a question: why are YYZ and YUL served by mostly RJ's? Aren't these the two largest and most travelled cities in Canada? Can't they support more mainline equipment? Even Air Canada flies the ERJ-175 on a lot of routes to big cities in the US.
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Boeing757/767
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:34 am

Regarding RJs, the answer is frequency -- offering the most flights possible to these business destinations.

Heck, the same applies to a big city like NYC. Lots of RJs at LGA.
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Marco
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:41 am

Canada in general isn't on top of the list for airlines, with the exception of YYZ and to a much lesser extent YUL and YVR. The yields can be low, airport landing fees high. BA flies aircraft without F class to YYZ (one of the three daily flights), same goes for YUL on all their flights. AF has three daily flights to YUL, only one of which has a F class cabin. At least this is the impression that I have.
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N1120A
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 10):
The yields can be low

That is completely wrong, given the difference in price between flying to BUF vis a vis YYZ alone. The yields on routes to Canada are higher than those to nearby communities in the US.

Quoting Marco (Reply 10):
AF has three daily flights to YUL, only one of which has a F class cabin.

The fact that they have three daily flights says something about the yields they are getting out of the airport. AF is removing the vast majority of F seats from their entire fleet, not just YUL, to the point that only the A380 (with a very small number) and the 777s will have them. Further, the fact that YUL gets F at all says something about AF's yields in the market. Also, the sheer capacity in the market means they are making money there.

Quoting Marco (Reply 10):
BA flies aircraft without F class to YYZ (one of the three daily flights), same goes for YUL on all their flights.

Again, think about this logically. BA has to apportion its aircraft carefully in order to strike a balance throughout their network. The fact that they send in 2 4 class aircraft a day and then add another 3 class aircraft says that YYZ is a strong performer for them, otherwise it would get one plane a day like PHX or DEN.
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tinpusher007
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting Boeing757/767 (Reply 9):
Heck, the same applies to a big city like NYC. Lots of RJs at LGA.

Right, but not from major hub cities.
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N1120A
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 8):
I have a question: why are YYZ and YUL served by mostly RJ's? Aren't these the two largest and most travelled cities in Canada? Can't they support more mainline equipment? Even Air Canada flies the ERJ-175 on a lot of routes to big cities in the US.

The E175 and E190 are mainline aircraft with mainline service at AC. People see them as an RJ because they are built by a historically regional manufacturer, but consider that they are the size of DC9s and are being operated similarly, with the added advantage of excellent range. I do agree that there are a lot of RJs that cross the border, but I think a large part of that is Air Canada's domination of transborder business travel, the majority of which is done by Canadians who have more of an incentive to maintain loyalty to AC and not a US carrier.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 12):
Right, but not from major hub cities.

Well, US does fly RJs to PHL, PIT and CLT from LGA. DL flies RJs from LGA to CLT, ORD, DFW and CVG. UA flies RJs to IAD. Eagle flies RJs to BOS, ATL, CLE, DCA, and DTW, among other major cities. There are more examples.
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Marco
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:49 am

Well I don't particularly disagree with you N1120A but the fact of the matter is that YUL has historical ties with France and YYZ with England so the volume of traffic is normal. In fact most of AF's pax from YUL are transiting through CDG, which diminishes the yield if I remember correctly. The same goes for BA at YYZ. It's a well known fact that Canada is one of the countries along with several European countries (Sweden for example) where airlines would rather fly aircraft with Business/Economy classes only. The yields are not terrible but compared to how BA fills up F/J to NYC, DXB or AF to NYC, NRT - YYZ & YUL aren't in the same league!
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N1120A
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 14):
Well I don't particularly disagree with you N1120A but the fact of the matter is that YUL has historical ties with France and YYZ with England so the volume of traffic is normal.

Sure, the volume of traffic definately is aided by historical ties, but you cannot overlook that both Toronto and Montreal are major cities and the best connecting points within Canada.

Quoting Marco (Reply 14):
In fact most of AF's pax from YUL are transiting through CDG, which diminishes the yield if I remember correctly.

Connections don't always diminish yield, in fact they often can up them. A keen example of that is the way trans-atlantic yields out of LAX are boosted by the large amount of Middle Eastern traffic ex-LAX. The lack of non-stops allows airlines to charge a fare premium.

Quoting Marco (Reply 14):
The yields are not terrible but compared to how BA fills up F/J to NYC, DXB or AF to NYC, NRT - YYZ & YUL aren't in the same league!

It is pretty difficult to put any city in the league of New York and Tokyo for sheer economic domination, or Dubai for sheer buying power. YYZ and YUL definately hold their own
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Marco
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:49 am

YUL, YYZ and YVR are definately major cities with a good amount of premium traffic - don't get me wrong. But you're right they're not comparable to NRT, LAX, NYC, LHR, CDG, etc ...
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CentPIT
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:00 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Eagle flies RJs to BOS, ATL, CLE, DCA, and DTW, among other major cities. There are more examples.

Yep, PIT-LGA sees 4 daily ER3s.

Sorry about this.......

[Edited 2006-10-11 02:03:49]
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CentPIT
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Eagle flies RJs to BOS, ATL, CLE, DCA, and DTW, among other major cities. There are more examples.

Yep, PIT-LGA sees 4 daily ER3s from American Eagle!
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jamincan
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting Marco (Reply 16):
YUL, YYZ and YVR are definately major cities with a good amount of premium traffic - don't get me wrong. But you're right they're not comparable to NRT, LAX, NYC, LHR, CDG, etc ...

I'm a bit confused by this statement. I'm not sure anyone ever believed for a moment that YYZ, YUL or YVR were ever in the league of thsse cities. Very few cities are in the same league as the ones you listed.
 
bond007
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:52 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 12):
Right, but not from major hub cities.

Actually, the busiest RJ routes in the US are between major hub cities.

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Marco
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:55 pm

I'm a bit confused by this statement. I'm not sure anyone ever believed for a moment that YYZ, YUL or YVR were ever in the league of thsse cities. Very few cities are in the same league as the ones you listed.

What's so confusing? I'm simply giving him what I believe is the answer. YUL,YYZ and YVR are not major cities like NYC or CHI so they don't get as much traffic. Simple as that.
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N1120A
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:44 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 21):
YUL,YYZ and YVR are not major cities like NYC or CHI so they don't get as much traffic

Toronto is almost the same size as Chicago and is arguably more "major" given that it is the economic center of Canada while Chicago is overshadowed by Los Angeles, New York and San Francisco (though San Francisco proper is nowhere near as large as Chicago). Chicago's traffic levels are mostly attributable to its position in the US.
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Marco
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:12 pm

Chicago has the third largest gross metropolitan product in the nation - approximately $390 billion.

The City of Toronto's gross domestic product (GDP) is US$225 billion and Metropolitan Toronto's GDP is US$305 billion. Compared to other global metropolises, the size of Metropolitan Toronto's economy is 7th in the world (after New York City, London, Tokyo, Paris, Los Angeles, and Chicago).

The City of Toronto is at the heart of the Greater Toronto Area, home to more than 5.4 million people

Chicago is known as the "Second City," the "Windy City," the "City of Big Shoulders", "Chi-City,"and "Chi-town." When combined with its suburbs and nine surrounding counties in Illinois, Wisconsin, and Indiana, the greater metropolitan area known as Chicagoland encompasses a population greater than 9.4 million,[2] making it the third largest in the United States.

(all taken fro wikipedia)


Neither the population nor the GDP is the same so I don't think the traffic CHI gets is just because of its location!
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N1120A
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
Chicago has the third largest gross metropolitan product in the nation - approximately $390 billion.

And GDP/GMP is a rather bad indicator of anything these days

The City of Toronto's gross domestic product (GDP) is US$225 billion and Metropolitan Toronto's GDP is US$305 billion. Compared to other global metropolises, the size of Metropolitan Toronto's economy is 7th in the world (after New York City, London, Tokyo, Paris, Los Angeles, and Chicago).

Even using an outdated indicator, that is a hell of a position in the world when you consider that it places Toronto ahead of global powerhouses like Dubai, Milan, Madrid, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Mexico City, Sao Paulo, etc. Also, Toronto and the GTA has the lowest city and metro population of any of those cities, yet it still positions as an economic heavyweight. Add to that the travel of Canadians generally and Ontarians specifically and the recipe is one for excellent O&D

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):

Neither the population nor the GDP is the same so I don't think the traffic CHI gets is just because of its location!

Again, the city proper has near Chicago proper's population. Further, Toronto is not only the capital of Ontario, but it is the economic capital for all of Canada as well as being the regional economic hub for an area that stretches far beyond the GTA and west to Kitchener/Waterloo and London, South to Niagara Region and even Western New York as well as east to Kingston.

Quoting Marco (Reply 23):
(all taken fro wikipedia)

Not a valid source in the least.
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Marco
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RE: Flights From YYZ-NYC; WAS; BOS; DTW; CHI

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:12 am

Wikipedia isn't the most valid source but for general info like this it shouldn't matter. I'll just end this by saying we can agree to disagree because you don't seem to want to understand my point of view.
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