atlaaron
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:30 pm

ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:20 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061009/comair.html?.v=2

Will they strike?

[Edited 2006-10-09 22:25:15]
 
DAYflyer
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:35 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:33 am

What a bunch of thugs.

Of course they will strike.
One Nation Under God
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:44 am

that will be the fastest way to shut the airline down - for good.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:28 am

The bigger question is how will Mother Delta react to a strike and the millions in losses that would accompany it?

Is it worth allowing a strike that will potentially cost the company hundreds of millions or simply let the FA's have their way while slowly liquidating Comair?
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:52 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 3):
The bigger question is how will Mother Delta react to a strike and the millions in losses that would accompany it?

Is it worth allowing a strike that will potentially cost the company hundreds of millions or simply let the FA's have their way while slowly liquidating Comair?

If a strike leads to significant disruption of service, there won't be anything "slow" about the liquidation. DL learned their lesson from the Comair pilot strike in 2000, and are diversified enough that the Comair flying can be redistributed relatively quickly.

The ground service, maintenance, etc. might remain (it's a big part of the business), or be merged into the mainline operations, but I think at this point DL could take or leave the flying.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:59 am

There is an abundance of excess regional jet capacity in the industry right now plus this is an off-peak period.

There is no doubt that DL will move very quickly to put OH permanently out of business and replace its flying post-haste.
 
skibum9
Posts: 862
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2001 1:13 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 4):
If a strike leads to significant disruption of service, there won't be anything "slow" about the liquidation. DL learned their lesson from the Comair pilot strike in 2000, and are diversified enough that the Comair flying can be redistributed relatively quickly.

This might be a little harder than you think. Usually others will not fly struck work in honor of the strike, and the company cannot make them. So they may have a difficult time putting another carrier on the exact same routes.
Tailwinds!!!
 
toltommy
Posts: 2496
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
There is an abundance of excess regional jet capacity in the industry right now plus this is an off-peak period.

They plan to implement the paycuts on 11/15. That just before the busiest travel period of the year. Even though a lot of the CVG flying is operated by other carriers, a good percentage is still Comair.

Anyone know what percentage of regional flying Comair operates at CVG and ATL?
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:13 am

Don't these F/A's realized that their are alot of out of work F/A's that would love to work for this kind of pay. Sure its not the best pay. But, it beat unemployment checks or NO money at all coming in to the house.

I think they all need to stop and think about this. This also includes NWA F/A's as well.
 
freedom747
Posts: 104
Joined: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:31 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:05 am

Greed...funny thing.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
There is an abundance of excess regional jet capacity in the industry right now plus this is an off-peak period.

There is no doubt that DL will move very quickly to put OH permanently out of business and replace its flying post-haste.

Very true, ExpressJet will have upo to 60+ aircraft available very soon. Besides, DL can move those OH aircraft to another certificate since they're the holding company.

This will be a non-event for DL should they strike. Note everyone will honor the strike.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 8):



Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 8):
Don't these F/A's realized that their are alot of out of work F/A's that would love to work for this kind of pay. Sure its not the best pay. But, it beat unemployment checks or NO money at all coming in to the house.

I think they all need to stop and think about this. This also includes NWA F/A's as well.

Oh for god sakes - get real. Do you have an inkling of what these people make?!?!?! The airlines are cutting their pay to levels that qualify them for public assistance. Not only is it not the "best pay", but it's not even pay that will allow one to support themselves. Quite frankly, the pay that is being offered is not better than unemployment and the odds that any of these folks will remain jobless forever is pretty nil. They can get work just about anywhere for what the airlines want to pay them. These people are in these jobs primarily because they love what they do and they love the industry. The airlines are chasing these folks out of the industry and trying to replace them with folks that could care less about their passengers, the industry or their jobs. Pretty soon you'll find the same employees you see at your local Burger King working on board your flights.

I can only imagine that you advocate the airlines treating their employees this way because you are one of those that care only that another airline going away means less picture taking opportunities for you.

It's amazing to me that people bitch about the state of customer service on board U.S. airlines yet they advocate paying these same workers minimum wages.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:52 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
Oh for god sakes - get real. Do you have an inkling of what these people make?!?!?! The airlines are cutting their pay to levels that qualify them for public assistance. Not only is it not the "best pay", but it's not even pay that will allow one to support themselves. Quite frankly, the pay that is being offered is not better than unemployment and the odds that any of these folks will remain jobless forever is pretty nil. They can get work just about anywhere for what the airlines want to pay them. These people are in these jobs primarily because they love what they do and they love the industry. The airlines are chasing these folks out of the industry and trying to replace them with folks that could care less about their passengers, the industry or their jobs. Pretty soon you'll find the same employees you see at your local Burger King working on board your flights.

I can only imagine that you advocate the airlines treating their employees this way because you are one of those that care only that another airline going away means less picture taking opportunities for you.

It's amazing to me that people bitch about the state of cus

Finally, someone on here gets it. I was beginning to think I was the only one....
 
LAXdude1023
Posts: 4460
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:56 pm

Does anyone know what the fate of CVG will be should DL cut Comair? Ive asked before, but no one seems to know. I know that CVG has a very large percentage of DL coded flights operated by comair. I can see CVG becoming a shell of its former existance if DL cuts Comair.

Does anyone have any thoughts? (WorldTraveler- Mr. Delta himself might be able to shed some light on this  Wink )
It is what it is...
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:37 pm

Wow that was a short press release....

I don't think the F/A will be allowed to strike. Masaba imposed pay cuts in BK and the F/A had to go to the NMB.

I think that the same will happen to Comair.... then the 30 day cooling off and wow look it is the slow January season.

HMMMMM

just my 2cents.
 
surfdog75
Posts: 239
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:39 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:52 pm

Why are so many people so anxious to see employees take large pay and benefit cuts? They have a right to fight for a liveable wage and don't deserve to be called greedy when they stand up to corporations that think only of cutting employee costs rather than increasing revenue. So many jobs that used to pay well and support families have disappeared or become entry level work in this country. By the time the company realizes that what they pay only attracts the bottom of the barrel employee, the damage has already been done.

Southwest gets it and it's not a coincidence that they've been the only consistently profitable company and have consistently good customer satisfaction ratings. They fly all their own passengers without farming them out to contract carriers. An entry level employee knows that the company cares about their welfare and in turn the employee cares about the company. He or she also knows there is a chance to move up the ladder. Why are most other airlines moving in the opposite direction? They can't wait to farm most everything out to the lowest bidder. Very short-sighted in my opinion.
 
ADXMatt
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:07 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:04 pm

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/....shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._2075334

This article states

Even with the adjustments to the contract that include an average pay cut of 7.5 percent, the company says its flight attendants will remain the highest paid in the regional airline industry. The average flight attendant salary is $29,950 and the average pay cut is $2,250.

Where did they get this figure of $29,950? The F/A's I've spoken too don't even make close to that.
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:12 pm

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 15):
Why are so many people so anxious to see employees take large pay and benefit cuts? They have a right to fight for a liveable wage and don't deserve to be called greedy when they stand up to corporations that think only of cutting employee costs rather than increasing revenue. So many jobs that used to pay well and support families have disappeared or become entry level work in this country. By the time the company realizes that what they pay only attracts the bottom of the barrel employee, the damage has already been done.

The problem is that their costs are much higher than their competition. If OH cannot get their costs down, DL is not going to renew their contract, and everyone at OH will be out of work.... and a lot of CRJ's will be headed to the desert. They certainly have a right to stand up for more pay, but in this case, if they do, they will ultimately all lose their jobs.

They have a decision to make.. is it better to make less money, or is it better to not have the job at all, and move on to somewhere else. If the choice is to move on to somewhere else, why take the company down with them? Why not simply quit, and let someone who is willing to work for less pay take their job? Why (possibly) inconvenience so many innocent travelers, when in the end, the result would be the same?
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:41 pm

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 16):
The average flight attendant salary is $29,950 and the average pay cut is $2,250.

same people who said the average Delta pilot makes 167,000.
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
It's amazing to me that people bitch about the state of customer service on board U.S. airlines yet they advocate paying these same workers minimum wages.

Fact.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
The airlines are chasing these folks out of the industry and trying to replace them with folks that could care less about their passengers, the industry or their jobs. Pretty soon you'll find the same employees you see at your local Burger King working on board your flights.

I agree; however, this is the evolution of business. The airline industry was delayed in transitioning to what it really is - the service industry. No one is denying these employees are standing up for what they feel is owed to them; however, they're being left behind/replaced with cost efficient companies. The company is not preventing the employees from moving onto other careers.
As these employees protest to protect their interest, the company is doing the same thing in protecting their interest. The unions had 2 approaches, defend what they have at all cost or partner with the company to identify or cost savings and work efficiencies.

Did the latter occur? Hmmmm, probably not at OH.

Besides, how many F/A, pilots and Mechancis look to make Comair a career. Regional carriers have served as a "stepping stone". My only grip with Comair is why create a costly and complex benefits package with the intention of remaining a regional carrier? This will only price you out of business which it is doing. All parties should put the past behind them and look to the future. IF the sacrifices are too great, then research a new career path.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
It's amazing to me that people bitch about the state of customer service on board U.S. airlines yet they advocate paying these same workers minimum wages.

As I mentioned, the airline industry is a subsection of the service industry. The cost and revenue will fall in line accordingly; unfortunately these changes will occur faster than imagined, compare airline wages of Pre-9/11 to Post 2006. 2/3rd of the Legacy Carriers have restructed cost in bankruptcy. During the same period, the industry leaders have shifted to the once un-noticable Low Cost Carriers. The market sets the fares; we should not be surprised when people drive 3 hrs from DSM to MCI to save $100 in airfare.

Unfortunately, the prestige of working for an airline appears to be deminishing outside the industry.

Quoting Surfdog75 (Reply 15):
Southwest gets it and it's not a coincidence that they've been the only consistently profitable company and have consistently good customer satisfaction ratings.

In 2004 while connecting in CVG, I read an article in The Equirer that stated a 3rd year Southwest F/A hourly rate was the same as a first year Comair F/A. A 737 has more revenue capability than an RJ whether it's 40, 50, or 70 seats.


Looking at the direction the industry appears to be moving, I do not think it's in individuals nor companies best interest for front line employees to become career employees. I know technology can not replace a smile or true customer service, does the flying public care? Maybe or maybe not. Technology can make customer service more efficient without the personal touch.

40-30 years ago, diners were replaced with fast food. Unless you're in New Jersey, you must pump your own gas. Hell, we even check ourselves out at Kroger and Home Depot to name significant few. We've become a truely independent society no longer requiring customer service. Do not confuse this with the argument of safety. That's a preamble the government requires to working in the industry.

We think the last 5 years were significant, we have no idea what the future holds once the Eclipse and Honda Jets are implemented into commercial service.

Its obvious the number of jobs in the industry will deminish or transition to other areas. Remember technological know how and advancements will reduce the number of jobs transitioned.
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:16 pm

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 20):
Looking at the direction the industry appears to be moving, I do not think it's in individuals nor companies best interest for front line employees to become career employees.

with Flight Attendants and Gate Agents, I would agree with you. I don't know how either one can work a whole career and continue to be motivated and happy when you deal with idiot passengers all day. But personally I want the pilots and mechanics to be experianced career employees.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 21):
But personally I want the pilots and mechanics to be experianced career employees.

I agree. I do know Comair hires a lot of thier pilots from their flight academy in Florida. I think we would be surprised with the number of hours they have coming out of the academy. I've often wondered if there is a hiring ratio from the academy. When I say career, meant as a Comair employee.
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:07 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 21):
with Flight Attendants and Gate Agents, I would agree with you. I don't know how either one can work a whole career and continue to be motivated and happy when you deal with idiot passengers all day. But personally I want the pilots and mechanics to be experianced career employees.

Think about the Air France accident in YYZ. The FA's were responsible for evacuating that entire aircraft and most likely saving many passengers from a fiery death. Too bad you don't value that. Perhaps the next time there is a survivable accident the FA's will be the first to bail, leaving the passengers the fend for themselves and figure out how to get out on their own. After all, it's an entry level position that really shouldn't attract professional people that are interested in a serious job.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 23):
Think about the Air France accident in YYZ. The FA's were responsible for evacuating that entire aircraft and most likely saving many passengers from a fiery death. Too bad you don't value that. Perhaps the next time there is a survivable accident the FA's will be the first to bail, leaving the passengers the fend for themselves and figure out how to get out on their own. After all, it's an entry level position that really shouldn't attract professional people that are interested in a serious job.

This is the point! Flight attendants and their companies will tell you all day long that they are there to provide SAFETY first. Moreover, they are MANDATED by the FAA. It's fundamentally wrong to put a price tag on that "service" and a cheap one at that. Im not saying they should be raking in huge six figure salaries, but required crewmembers of 121 airlines should not be elligable for public assistance.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
atlaaron
Posts: 973
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:30 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):
Does anyone know what the fate of CVG will be should DL cut Comair? Ive asked before, but no one seems to know. I know that CVG has a very large percentage of DL coded flights operated by comair. I can see CVG becoming a shell of its former existance if DL cuts Comair.

It is my honest OPINION that I think DL would like to see OH go bye bye, and that they also are not all that keen on CVG. If OH goes watch the amount of flying at CVG go as well. DL will re-route the whole thing and just send it through ATL.

Also, I agree with the posts that everyone complains about customer service and that it is because of the LOW levels of pay FA's and customer service agents get. However, I also believe that their pay is a pure function of economic supply and demand. There is an abundance of people just wanting to work in the airline industry just because they have a fascination with the industry. But I am certainly not saying the quality of the "supply" is where it should be. Highschool grads, no college degree, etc. But again one should note this is what our society wants, the cheapest airfare no matter what . . . well they are going to continually pay the price with horrible customer service.
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5272
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:12 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 13):
Does anyone know what the fate of CVG will be should DL cut Comair? Ive asked before, but no one seems to know. I know that CVG has a very large percentage of DL coded flights operated by comair. I can see CVG becoming a shell of its former existance if DL cuts Comair.

DL has publicly stated that they are committed to the CVG hub regardless of Comair's status. However, I do believe that should Comair strike or quickly liquidate that DL would only replace SOME of Comair's capacity....further shrinking the CVG hub.
 
okie73
Posts: 303
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:09 pm

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 23):
Think about the Air France accident in YYZ. The FA's were responsible for evacuating that entire aircraft and most likely saving many passengers from a fiery death. Too bad you don't value that

actually I do value that, very much. But the fact is it does not take that long to train someone to help evacuate an aircraft. Further, given that the job of the FA is to help get people off in an emergency, how good a job do you think the many old FAs at Delta could do? Me personally, I'd rather have a younger, healthier flight attendant helping me off if my airplane was on fire.
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2006 1:18 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting Okie73 (Reply 27):
how good a job do you think the many old FAs at Delta could do? Me personally, I'd rather have a younger, healthier flight attendant helping me off if my airplane was on fire.

Oh Boy!!  duck 
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2004 6:05 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:50 am

Bickering about all this safety nonsense is completely missing the real point here....

"The problem is that their costs are much higher than their competition. If OH cannot get their costs down, DL is not going to renew their contract, and everyone at OH will be out of work.... and a lot of CRJ's will be headed to the desert. They certainly have a right to stand up for more pay, but in this case, if they do, they will ultimately all lose their jobs.

They have a decision to make.. is it better to make less money, or is it better to not have the job at all, and move on to somewhere else. If the choice is to move on to somewhere else, why take the company down with them? Why not simply quit, and let someone who is willing to work for less pay take their job? Why (possibly) inconvenience so many innocent travelers, when in the end, the result would be the same?"
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 23):
The FA's were responsible for evacuating that entire aircraft and most likely saving many passengers from a fiery death. Too bad you don't value that.

There have certainly been incidents where younger, lower paid flight attendants are just as successful in performing their responsibilities in an emergency as older ones. Most flight attendants experience an incident/accident and evacuation like what happened in YYZ once or twice in a career, if even that often. Do you really think higher pay translates into a greater will to live?

Based on what has happened so far in the industry, it is highly likely that the flight attendants will never get a chance to strike. Part of the issue at stake here is that the Judiciary doesn’t want to make a ruling as to whether bankruptcy or labor law is the primary governing law in a situation like this – and that is at the heart of these cases. Whatever way a judge rules, the case is very likely to go all the way to the Supreme Court. No judge wants to be on record as having been overruled by a higher court. Consequently, judges will impose restraining orders and delays until the problem goes away. And creditors will vigorously support the precedence of bankruptcy law over labor law because the restructuring process in bankruptcy is destroyed if labor is able to have the final say via a strike, almost always which will permanently destroy a company. While labor may not like having terms imposed, it never will result in a complete loss to labor. And judges have been very free to tell companies if they believe they are overreaching in their demands from labor. Even though several of these orders allowing a company to impose a contract have been issued throughout the industry, not one strike has actually occurred.

As for the viability of the CVG hub, there is every evidence that CVG is working very well for DL and it has no plans to shrink anything. There will always be tinkering of the schedule but it would be very wrong to assume that DL would do anything to pull down any capacity in CVG even if that happened as part of a strike – which is highly unlikely to happen.
 
toltommy
Posts: 2496
Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2003 9:04 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 8):
Don't these F/A's realized that their are alot of out of work F/A's that would love to work for this kind of pay.



Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 11):
Oh for god sakes - get real. Do you have an inkling of what these people make?!?!?!

Yep, Comair F/A's are currently among the highest paid in the regional industry. If they had accepted the company's pay proposal, they still would've been. New hire pay was going to be cut drastically, but still would be higher than Mesaba's pay scales today, before any cuts. Comair FA's on the property at the time the proposed contract would've been approved really weren't bearing much of the burden at all.

Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 14):
Masaba imposed pay cuts in BK and the F/A had to go to the NMB.

First of all, its MESABA. Second, no pay cuts were imposed by management. they had won court approval, but had to give 10 days notice. They had not given the 10 days notice when the ruling was overturned on appeal. Third, The company and the union have not reached an agreement regarding use of the NMB. NMB refused to sign off on an agreement between the company and union, so there's an impasse. The union has suggested that a private mediator be used. The company has agreed to a private mediator in talks with the pilot group, but so far has refused when it comes to the FA's.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 29):
Bickering about all this safety nonsense is completely missing the real point here....

I hope you don't ever find yourself stuck in an airplane that has crashed and is rapidly burning. A F/A making burger king wages or less might find that the "nonesense" of getting you out alive might be below her pay grade and less important than saving her own ass.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
RJ
Posts: 192
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 9:28 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:52 am

First to WorldTraveler, can I get you a towel to wipe the drool off of your mouth because evil Comair might at last be shut down?

Where do I begin this one? There are several points to make. I guess I'll start with a little history to provide some background to the situation.

The Comair Flight Attendants reached a consensual agreement on the contract that they are working under a few years back. Management agreed to the conditions set forth and signed the deal. A contract is a contract you know.

Fast forward to the Delta/Comair bankruptcy, and management decides that it needs to cut cost to stay competitive. This is where it gets tricky. A little of what AvConsultant sheds some light on this. Let me take it further and put it into a Comair context.

Comair employees have always viewed themselves as professionals on par with the best airlines out there. They do not view themselves as second fiddle and many do not see Comair as a stepping stone airline. This goes for Flight Attendants, Mechanics, and Pilots. Because of this view, they feel that they should be compensated accordingly. And Comair management agreed, because there are a lot of "me too" clauses in the contracts. Even the non union labor groups at Comair benefited from these clauses. Items such as Heath Care and Retirement come to mind.

Comair launched the Regional Jet industry as we know it. However, as Comair matured their competition did not. Let me explain. Comair's current contracts for the Flight Attendants, Mechanics, and Pilots occurred after Comair had had RJ's for a while. The competition on the other hand was able to start fresh. It was the first time that RJ's landed on those companies properties. Unfortunately for Comair, this allowed the competition to undercut them. Then the events of 9-11 occurred and nobody was ever able follow in the natural evolution of pattern bargaining and getting a better contract than Comair (with the exception of Horizon which signed their agreement a short while after Comair signed their agreement ) Couple this with the absolute mismanagement of Comair (which I have laid out in another thread) and you get the situation that we are in now.

There is a lot of one sided information on this board. The spin misters like to paint with a broad brush and blame everything on labor. Well as I've said before and I'll say again, it takes two to tango. (Or three if you count in a Federal Judge). Comair's labor groups have negotiated for concessions. (How many people here know that the Flight Attendants agreed to a B-scale before Comair ever went into bankruptcy?) The mechanics and pilots agreed to cuts earlier in the year. However, management decided in their infinite wisdom to tie all of the agreements together. So, if one group said no, then all agreements were void. Well, guess what happened?

You see, Comair management was very insistent on an inflexible dollar amount from each of the labor groups. Now, is that bargaining in good faith? That is not bargaining at all. That is an ultimatum. The Flight Attendants balked at the amount that management wanted from them. When Comair management laid down their 1113 on the F/A's, Judge Hardin originally sided with the Flight Attendants. He said that management was not negotiating in good faith because they had an inflexible amount attached to their demands. When Comair came off of their demands, the Judge agreed with management and threw out the F/A contract. However, management doesn't get a clear cut victory. The railway labor act can allow the Flight Attendants to strike if they feel that that is their only hope.

Don't believe the press accounts at what the average amount a Flight Attendant would make. The payscale was skewed to make that number work. You see, Comair has a small amount of senior F/A's that they needed to get a new agreement to pass. Therefore, you don't cut their pay all that much to get their vote. But the bottom end gets cut a lot. When all is said and done, it appears that average pay is a lot more than it actually is. That is how management spin works. Funny how statements from the Flight Attendants were not in the papers or press releases. To quote:

"We all want to help our airline emerge from bankruptcy and return to profitability, but we have to be able to reach a deal that both the flight attendants and management can agree to."

"We care about our company, and we will work to reach a fair settlement.”
"The flight attendants understand that if their company is in dire straits, they will share the burden of necessary cuts. It’s time that Comair acknowledges this, and negotiates a fair contract that enables the company and its entire workforce to thrive."

So what do you do? Just lie down and accept everything that management wants? Or are you willing to stand up and fight for a contract that is agreeable?

For those that think that Comair can easily be replaced, I whole heartedly disagree. Someone else here can verify the numbers, but Delta is not as diversified as some may think. Skywest dominates in SLC, ASA dominates in ATL, and Comair dominates in BOS, CVG, JFK, and LGA. The amount of other Delta Connection carriers in these markets pales in comparison. It is very expensive for the other airlines to set up shop in short order and replace all of the lift that Comair provides. Do you TDY crews? Do you open a new base and pay for all of the crews to move there? How about all of the new management staff that has to be created to support the new bases? It's not cheap.
 
2H4
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:01 am




Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 26):
should Comair strike or quickly liquidate that DL would only replace SOME of Comair's capacity....further shrinking the CVG hub.

If this should occur, what other airlines would be most likely to introduce (or expand) service to CVG?



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bucky707
Posts: 954
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 2:01 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:05 am

Quoting RJ (Reply 33):
They do not view themselves as second fiddle and many do not see Comair as a stepping stone airline. This goes for Flight Attendants, Mechanics, and Pilots.

Then why do I constantly fly with FOs who came from CMR?
 
atlaaron
Posts: 973
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 34):
If this should occur, what other airlines would be most likely to introduce (or expand) service to CVG?

B6, FL and WN would be my guesses, but nothing of any size compared to what DL would have had there.
 
RJ
Posts: 192
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:32 am

Bucky707,

I was trying to put the sentiment of Comair employees into a historical context. However, the climate has shifted since last summer when the labor groups were approached and given empty promises. Comair is no long a final destination that many saw it as because it no longer controls its own destiny. That is why over 30 pilots a month are leaving to find better futures.
 
Lono
Posts: 1136
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:51 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 4):
If a strike leads to significant disruption of service, there won't be anything "slow" about the liquidation. DL learned their lesson from the Comair pilot strike in 2000, and are diversified enough that the Comair flying can be redistributed relatively quickly.

Last time this happened (comair strick) DL lost their butts.... if DL learned anything they know this is a big gamble and it could take the airline down.... DL depends too much on comair feed.... CVG operations will disrupt DL system....meaning DL may not recover from this gamble.... sad but true..... the flying can not and could not be "redistrubuted quickly"..... This will hurt DL.... which is a bummer.... a purchase when they were flush.... may indeed flush DL.... big gamble here for sure... I hope the comair folks get what they need.......
Wally Bird Ruled the Skys!
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 890
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:03 am

Thank you RJ for going even deeper than before to explain this Comair situation correctly. I would think that most of us Anet'ers are 'working people' like most of the employees of the airlines that we debate about over and over again. Im sometimes shocked at how people see things. I gotta think, the kool-aid must be damn good...lol!
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 35):
Then why do I constantly fly with FOs who came from CMR?

Because a lot of us realized that our personal fortunes were closely tied to the companies fortunes, and we didn't like the way those tea leaves looked. I went to Comair with the intention of staying put for a long time, maybe until retirement. The pay wasn't the highest, but it was enough to live a middle class lifestyle, after a few years. I was simply unwilling to give up any more money, and subject my family to the results. The atmosphere at work went from congenial, to adversarial, to overtly hostile. We were hounded to be more efficient, work harder, and do more for the company while they do less for us.

I could go on for quite some time, but the short version is, I decided to find a better environment to work it, while I pondered the direction I want to finish my career in. I still have a lot of friends and a few neighbors at Comair who are scrambling to not only get out, but to stockpile as much cash as possible.

What was once a fiercly proud, professional company commited good service has become a shell of what it was.
Proud OOTSK member
 
OttoPylit
Posts: 2259
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:25 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 3):
The bigger question is how will Mother Delta react to a strike and the millions in losses that would accompany it?

Is it worth allowing a strike that will potentially cost the company hundreds of millions or simply let the FA's have their way while slowly liquidating Comair?

Most likely won't happen. First of all, the FA's know what is at stake. And secondly, by the time Nov 15th rolls around, Delta will have already had the court grant an injunction to keep the FA's from striking, a la Northwest Airlines. Therefore, no FA can strike legally and any that do are effectively terminated on the spot. No union can help them at that point.

Quoting Lono (Reply 38):
Last time this happened (comair strick) DL lost their butts.... if DL learned anything they know this is a big gamble and it could take the airline down.... DL depends too much on comair feed.... CVG operations will disrupt DL system....

You would be correct, but have you seen CVG lately? All of a sudden, C Concourse isn't bursting with planes at every gate now, and A Concourse is bustling with activity with a bunch of (cheap) Chautauqua ERJ's sitting over there. If you look at the flight boards, many flight numbers are no longer 5000 numbers(5000 is usually an OH flight). And you are very likely to see many OH planes sitting in ATL, mixed in and flying the same routes as ASA planes. The last time OH struck, DL learned their lesson. No longer does OH serve CVG, EV serve ATL, and OO serve SLC. They have them all mixed in and overlapping that if a strike were to happen, the airline would not be crippled, and if they decided, DL could also throw in a spare MD88 or two into a few airports just to add some of the capacity lost. Pilots do sign up for overtime, ya know. If the FA's do strike, you will not see the problems that happened in 2001, which were only about 3 weeks of hectic activity before DL became pro-active and rebooked all remaining OH customers on DL flights and contacted those passengers to make them aware of their new travel plans.

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 22):
I agree. I do know Comair hires a lot of thier pilots from their flight academy in Florida. I think we would be surprised with the number of hours they have coming out of the academy. I've often wondered if there is a hiring ratio from the academy.

They do get a lot of their pilots from their overpriced Delta Connection Academy(formerly Comair Academy) in Florida. They guarantee all graduates an interview, and while Comair's hiring specs for pilots may be something like 1,500 hr's or so, if you are a DCA grad, you can be sitting right seat with 400 hrs!!! Thats 400 hrs TOTAL time, according to a Comair captain I was speaking with not long ago. Now, I don't know how much of that is multi or turbine time, but it doesn't sound like much at all.


For one, I'm not too worried, and if the FA's are that stupid, I look forward to Chautauqua Airlines making large strides with DL Connection flying.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:43 am




Quoting Lowrider (Reply 40):
We were hounded to be more efficient, work harder, and do more for the company while they do less for us.

If only management had led by example and treated employees with a shred of respect. Granted, I'm looking in from the outside, but it seems as though the employees have been treated like a disposable resource....and regardless of how replaceable they may be, that's the wrong way to run a company.

I still have trouble understanding what differentiates a mainline pilot from a "regional" pilot....particularly when a "regional" pilot may have to deal with icing in Canada one day, and volcanic activity in Mexico the next. What "region" would that be, then? North America?  irked 



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tinpusher007
Posts: 890
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 41):
They do get a lot of their pilots from their overpriced Delta Connection Academy(formerly Comair Academy) in Florida. They guarantee all graduates an interview, and while Comair's hiring specs for pilots may be something like 1,500 hr's or so, if you are a DCA grad, you can be sitting right seat with 400 hrs!!! Thats 400 hrs TOTAL time, according to a Comair captain I was speaking with not long ago. Now, I don't know how much of that is multi or turbine time, but it doesn't sound like much at all.

This is not true. I attended what was then Comair Academy. Though I was not hired to instruct there, the hour requirements to get to Comair were much more than 400 hrs. While instructing at the academy and earning only $10/hr btw, you had to give 800 hrs dual given and 100 hrs dual given in the seminole before being 'released' to Comair.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 32):
I hope you don't ever find yourself stuck in an airplane that has crashed and is rapidly burning. A F/A making burger king wages or less might find that the "nonesense" of getting you out alive might be below her pay grade and less important than saving her own ass.

I'm not particularly worried..... I always sit in the exit row due to my status, and I always asess the load on each flight and am prepared to help get everyone off as soon as possible. With 1 FA on a 50 passenger jet.. evacuation is up to everyone to work as fast as possible... the actions of that 1 FA aren't really going to change much.... the 1 FA is only going to be able to man one of the exits... in an emergency it is going to require a lot of teamwork from passengers to evacuate quickly. This discussion about safety is nonsense.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
2H4
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:39 pm




Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 44):
I'm not particularly worried..... I always sit in the exit row due to my status, and I always asess the load on each flight and am prepared to help get everyone off as soon as possible.

Well, good for you. Personally, I'm concerned about the safety of friends and loved ones, as well. But that's just me.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 44):
the actions of that 1 FA aren't really going to change much

They absolutely will. You seem to be under the impression that the actions taken by FAs in emergencies are purely physical. In fact, an assertive FA with real leadership and teamwork abilities will save lives by giving direction to disoriented and terrified passengers.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 44):
in an emergency it is going to require a lot of teamwork from passengers to evacuate quickly.

Disoriented, frightened passengers aren't known for practicing good teamwork, nor can they be counted on to work together in any way. In an emergency, it is going to require a lot of direction and leadership from the FAs to evacuate quickly.

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 44):
This discussion about safety is nonsense.

We've got loads of nonsense in this thread, but it's mainly concentrated in the posts that discount the importance and validity of the responsibilities of FAs. I sincerely hope you never have to experience the truth firsthand, Ejmmsu.

Nonsense, indeed.



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ejmmsu
Posts: 1647
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 45):
They absolutely will. You seem to be under the impression that the actions taken by FAs in emergencies are purely physical. In fact, an assertive FA with real leadership and teamwork abilities will save lives by giving direction to disoriented and terrified passengers.

I'm completely at a loss as to how a FA in the front of the plane is going to help pax exiting over the wings, or vice versa... I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
2H4
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:07 pm




Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 46):
I'm completely at a loss as to how a FA in the front of the plane is going to help pax exiting over the wings, or vice versa... I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Well, in a dark, smoke-filled, inverted, luggage-strewn cabin, you and I may be able to crawl out from underneath carryon bags, find our way to the emergency exit, and determine which way to go, but many....and perhaps most....other passengers will need to know what to do and where to go.

Most people pay no attention to the instructions given by the FA at the beginning of the flight, and even fewer examine the safety cards. Add some elderly and/or disabled folks to the mix, and you've got a big pile of uninformed, disoriented, panicking passengers who could very well be blinded and crippled.

An assertive FA could easily save the day not only by telling these people what to do and where to go....he or she could also save the day by instructing certain passengers to help other passengers. An action such as this could obviously save the disabled passengers, but it could also unblock an escape route for those lining up behind.

You see, FAs are a lot more than "hired muscle". Believe it or not, they've got some critical decisions to make, and properly guiding and instructing the passengers in an emergency is critical to saving lives.

So yes....a single FA standing at the front of the cabin can save the coroner a lot of work.



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tinpusher007
Posts: 890
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:13 pm

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 46):
I'm completely at a loss as to how a FA in the front of the plane is going to help pax exiting over the wings, or vice versa... I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

Not that everything the FAA does makes perfect sense, but if a F/A wouldn't make any difference in saftey, I don't think the FAA would mandate it. Many F/A are also trained in CPR for example. Someone's life could be saved in that kind of emergency as well. Here again, no one, including the flight attendants are saying pay them 150K but they should not be able to qualify for foodstamps for God's sake. Thats all. Someone who is mandated by a federal agency to help save your life in ANY sort of emergency and who may very well do so, should not be making a wage that qaulifies for food stamps. THAT is the point! Nothing more, nothing less.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
avconsultant
Posts: 709
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RE: ComAir To Impose FA Pay Cuts

Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:53 pm

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 48):
should not be making a wage that qaulifies for food stamps. THAT is the point! Nothing more, nothing less.

Fortunately, OH FA are one of the highest paid regionals. Will this cut place them in foodstamp range?

I doubt it and says who? The union?

BTW, the union leader "Slayback" is leading these people down the wrong path.