JetBlueAUS
Topic Author
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:15 am

Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:25 pm

Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7071
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:28 pm

I believe it will happen. It will be very intresting.

MCOflyer
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
pilotfox
Posts: 282
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:31 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 12:37 pm

I'm curious as to where this Virgin America aircraft is right now. There are at least two out in RME, Rome, NY. However, I do not believe they any interiors installed in those aircraft. I'll have to keep an eye on Flightaware for any VA movement.
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2888
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting Pilotfox (Reply 2):
I'm curious as to where this Virgin America aircraft is right now.

SFO

Mike
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1111
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:32 pm

CO and AA are so completely off the mark here.

"Takeoff had been delayed by opposition from domestic carriers—primarily Continental and American—which contends that Virgin America is masquerading as an American company and should not be given a license to operate domestic routes"

Branson, 51% owner of VS, will own 25% of Virgin America, within the ownership threshold set out in our federal legislation. "Masquerading as an American company"? Come on... Sounds like a bunch of sour-grapes to me.

Our Congress is full of wimps, influenced by know-nothing protectionists and xenophobes; they FAILED to ratify the proposed air carrier ownership and management liberalization bill. Instead, we are left with an ancient, Cold War-era law that limits our ability to negotiate with other nations [namely the LHR and EU Open Skies agreement] and limits foreign investment in our carriers.

AA and CO are playing straight into the populists' hands. However, our Congress has no excuse; all Represenatives and Senators [although the Senate is not the problem here] should be obligated to take a basic Price Theory course to learn how markets actually work and how market efficiencies create benefits for our society.

Geez...
 
PVG
Posts: 463
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 7:39 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:48 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 4):
Branson, 51% owner of VS, will own 25% of Virgin America, within the ownership threshold set out in our federal legislation. "Masquerading as an American company"? Come on... Sounds like a bunch of sour-grapes to me.

Agree, I don't understand why it's safe for foreign companies to produce medicine and food products in the US (which can also be used to do harm, if that's the intention), but they can't own an airline? And, especially, European/UK companies! Why would ownership by a Western European company be considered a threat? I know that there are differences of opinion on political and social policy, but I can't believe that Branson or BA or LH would seriously consider using their US ownership of aircraft to harm US interests. If they wanted to do that, they could do it now! I also assume that most (all?) of the pilots flying in the US would be US citizens. It doesn't make sense. Maybe it's a tit for tat thing. What are the ownership rules in Europe like?
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:50 pm

A few weeks ago, I've seen at least one Virgin America plane in Dorval.
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
28thguy
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:45 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 1:51 pm

I didn't support Dubai taking over our ports, and I don't support foreign ownership of U.S. airlines. Airlines are critical infrastructure....

And, by the way, how would France react to U.S. ownership of Air France, for example? Just a thought.
 
hz747300
Posts: 1927
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 4):
influenced by know-nothing protectionists and xenophobes;

No, they are influenced by money. If more money was coming in to them via lobbyists for allowing more foreign ownership and control the rules would have changed. All principles are checked at the beltway.

If VirginAmerica is following all the rules, their protests should be thrown out. Any 25% voting shareholder, in any company in the world, is going to have a say in how that company is run. AA and CO's complaints are invalid and don't pass the laugh test.
Keep on truckin'...
 
searpqx
Posts: 4173
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 10:36 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 8):
AA and CO's complaints are invalid and don't pass the laugh test.

Actually, based on US law, they do. Not only is ownership looked at, but operational control. AA/CO are making the case that while they may be meeting the financial control requirement, the strings are still being pulled by Branson, which is also allowed. I'm not saying I agree with US law, but that's how it currently stands.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3696
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:25 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 9):
Actually, based on US law, they do. Not only is ownership looked at, but operational control. AA/CO are making the case that while they may be meeting the financial control requirement, the strings are still being pulled by Branson, which is also allowed.

DHL was forced to spin off its flight operations in the US to Astar Air Cargo for the same reason. FedEx and UPS initially filed a protest against DHL USA claiming that its domestic flying was in violation of US laws since DHL USA is a subsidiary of DHL Worldwide, headquartered in Belgium and owned by the German post office. Once the spin off was completed, FedEx and UPS sought to continue their action on two grounds, one, that DHL ought to be punished for having up until then violated US law (a DOT judge quickly put an end to that one), and the second that DHL USA retained effective control of Astar Air Cargo as Astar's largest customer by a huge margin (90% of Astar's revenue come from DHL flights), hence a foreign entity would be controlling Astar's fate. Eventually, FedEx and UPS lost on this approach as well, although, in the end, UPS also lost some of its enthusiasm for the proceedings when German politicians started making noises that life may be a little too good for UPS' intra-European flights in and out of its hub in Cologne.

Of course, as with American and Continental's objections to VirginAmerica, FedEx and UPS' true problem had everything to do with blocking a competitor in their largest market and one of the few left not dominated by DHL already.

Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 8):
Any 25% voting shareholder, in any company in the world, is going to have a say in how that company is run

Writing with no particular insight into VirginAmerica, there are many ways, both over and covert, in which a shareholder with 25% of the voting rights may effectively control a majority of the votes.
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:38 pm

More marketing...at this point it wouldn't surprise me if the entire Virgin America concept were created just to build "brand awareness" for the rest of the Virgin properties.

Personally, until the UK opens up its airports to competition from the U.S., I won't exactly shed a tear if the USDOT shuts Virgin America down cold.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
Aviator27
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:09 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:38 pm

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 7):
And, by the way, how would France react to U.S. ownership of Air France, for example? Just a thought

Virgin America is minority owned by the Virgin Group. Whether SRB was exercising "operational control" is another story that none of us has the answer to. BTW there are no laws restricting Americans from taking a full stake in Air France or any other EU airline. I am sure the French would be up in arms as a matter of national pride. Anyhow, Air France-KLM Group is minting beaucoup bucks, so their asking price would be huge. Good luck to VX and I hope they get off the ground soon to bring something fresh to the skies besides pretzels.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5810
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:43 pm

I think the key thing is to look at the "Virgin" brand as a franchise. Certainly, some of the Virgin carriers don't excercise 100% loyalty to the mothership (Virgin Blue, etc.) This can be extended to some of the other Virgin properties (Virgin Mobile in some nations). So Virgin America is a franchise brand.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
nonfirm
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:04 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:54 pm

No matter what portion of the company Branson owns you can bet he will be pulling the string so it does not matter.That is why they should not allow this airline to start.  airplane 
 
AMSSFO
Posts: 912
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:42 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:52 pm

Quoting Nonfirm (Reply 14):
No matter what portion of the company Branson owns you can bet he will be pulling the string so it does not matter.That is why they should not allow this airline to start.

What exactly do you have against Branson?
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:23 pm

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 11):
More marketing...at this point it wouldn't surprise me if the entire Virgin America concept were created just to build "brand awareness" for the rest of the Virgin properties.

That would be a very expensive ad-campaign, considering the money already put into this venture, like the three(?) aircraft already built and delivered to them.
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
WesternA318
Posts: 4492
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 11:55 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:36 pm

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 6):
A few weeks ago, I've seen at least one Virgin America plane in Dorval

I saw two in full colors and two all white, but VA registrations sitting out at Dorval a few weeks ago as well, have pics too, but I refuse to post them on here
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
FutureFO
Posts: 2811
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 10:58 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:02 pm

They are not anywhere close to getting the OK to start. VCV is another place where the planes are at.
I Don't know where I am anymore
 
jfk777
Posts: 5954
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:05 pm

Let poor little Virgin America take off, for GOD's sake. Are 30 A320 going to really hurt AA or UA, it seems they are very threatened by Branson. Continental is the one that surprises me, it has a code share with Virgin Atlantic to LHR, it must not be to important to them.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:08 pm

Blatant protectionism. Whatever happened to free trade and enterprise?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
TropicBird
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:13 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 20):
Blatant protectionism. Whatever happened to free trade and enterprise?

There are still too many airline seats in the U.S. and we don't need to add to the misery airline employees have endured because of that. I see it almost every day. Furthermore, some capital intensive industries don't do well with yo-yo capitalism i.e. one airline after another seeking to become the next SWA.

The new guy always enters the market with lower airfares (to get market share) which in turn causes those in business to cut their overhead (read salaries, jobs and necessary equipment etc.) The industry is still trying to adjust to JetBlue and now we have Virgin America. Nothing personal, but I vote NO for now.
 
User avatar
ERJ170
Posts: 5498
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 11:15 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting TropicBird (Reply 21):
There are still too many airline seats in the U.S. and we don't need to add to the misery airline employees have endured because of that. I see it almost every day.

It all depends on where you are thinking those airline seats are. There are too many NYC-LAX/SoFlorida/Chicago/etc.. but other places have a lack of seats.. so I thnk that your statement is both true and false. Hopefully VA will think outside the box adn try new moves like Delta and AirTran are currently doing. I mean, from SFO, there are some locations unserved which could benefit from service. And there are some locations monopolized that could benefit from the service.
Aiming High and going far..
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:39 pm

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 11):
More marketing...at this point it wouldn't surprise me if the entire Virgin America concept were created just to build "brand awareness" for the rest of the Virgin properties.

Personally, until the UK opens up its airports to competition from the U.S., I won't exactly shed a tear if the USDOT shuts Virgin America down cold.



Quoting Nonfirm (Reply 14):
No matter what portion of the company Branson owns you can bet he will be pulling the string so it does not matter.That is why they should not allow this airline to start.



Quoting FutureFO (Reply 18):
They are not anywhere close to getting the OK to start. VCV is another place where the planes are at.

Just more hype is all it is, they are no closer to taking to the Sky's then they were before.

SRB is just getting back what he caused when AA and BA tried to code share, he effectively killed that, what goes around comes around.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13684
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:52 pm

Every time the topic of Virgin America comes up we see rabid protectionism from the alleged master capitalists of the world.

What exactly are you so scared of? I thought open and free competition was the best thing for the consumer?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
DL787932ER
Posts: 575
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:27 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):
I thought open and free competition was the best thing for the consumer?

 checkmark 

And when I can fly DL or CO to LHR, I'll be much more interested in hearing about "open and free competition" from our friends across the pond.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
incitatus
Posts: 2749
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 20):
Blatant protectionism. Whatever happened to free trade and enterprise?

Free trade and enterprise are being held up by the medieval rules preventing some US airlines from serving Heathrow. All this is is tit-for-tat.

[Edited 2006-10-10 16:58:07]
Stop pop up ads
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13807
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 19):
Let poor little Virgin America take off, for GOD's sake. Are 30 A320 going to really hurt AA or UA, it seems they are very threatened by Branson. Continental is the one that surprises me, it has a code share with Virgin Atlantic to LHR, it must not be to important to them.

You see, this is the problem. People are like "it's just a little airline, and the brits are our allies." First, who says it's only going to be 30?

But then what happens when China wants to start "China Far Western Airline" and install USA puppets into ownership and control positions?

As for CO, any retribution by VS against CO, including taking away the codeshare into LHR or trying to block CO's entry into LHR would only demonstrate that VS and Virgin America were in bed together, what they are denying, right?

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):
What exactly are you so scared of? I thought open and free competition was the best thing for the consumer?

Same lame argument from you each time.

Free competition is not equal to changing the rules for a new entrant, which is what would be done here.

The air game is not a completely open market. It never has been. It uses public infrastructure and a limited public airspace, and it's not always in the best interest of the public to admit one more entrant into an overly crowded market. It's not like the routes they want to fly are underserved. Much like B6 at ORD, I can't see what they bring to the table other than "we want it, we want it, we want it!" and a bit of foot stomping and breath holding.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
richierich
Posts: 3306
Joined: Sat Nov 04, 2000 5:49 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):
Every time the topic of Virgin America comes up we see rabid protectionism from the alleged master capitalists of the world.

What exactly are you so scared of? I thought open and free competition was the best thing for the consumer?

It is the best thing for the consumer, but perhaps not the best thing for other airlines. As a consumer, I say "bring it on".
None shall pass!!!!
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
But then what happens when China wants to start "China Far Western Airline" and install USA puppets into ownership and control positions?

What happens? Chinese investing in a US firm, that's what happens, it's what's happening everywhere. I heard the same arguments in the 80's when everyone in the US was afraid the Japanese were taking over everything. Guess we've come a long way since then, or not...
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
StuckInCA
Posts: 1618
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:55 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:49 am

Every one of these Virgin America threads turns out the same.

Quoting TropicBird (Reply 21):
The industry is still trying to adjust to JetBlue and now we have Virgin America. Nothing personal, but I vote NO for now.

But why shouldn't airlines have to deal with competition just like we do in nearly every other industry?
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
It uses public infrastructure and a limited public airspace

Not the airline's fault... they pay to use infrastructure and airspace, its your governments responsibility to ensure that it grows with the airlines that want to offer a service.

Quoting 28thguy (Reply 7):
And, by the way, how would France react to U.S. ownership of Air France, for example? Just a thought

Completely different situation. SRB isnt trying to take over American Airlines, he's trying to start his own. And if Donald Trump wanted to create his own french airline, he'd be able to...

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Free trade and enterprise are being held up by the medieval rules preventing some US airlines from serving Heathrow. All this is is tit-for-tat.

But Virgin America aren't being prevented from serving just ONE airport, they're being stopped from getting a slice of the WHOLE pie! If some US airlines wanted to start from LGW and offer a Domestic UK or EU service, no one would stop them! No airline can hide behind the "We cant serve heathrow" rock anymore because VA is being stopped from serving any airport in the USA.

There aren't too many seats in most markets, its just that airline yeilds are way too low. Selling the seat is no problem, making money on that seat is where airlines need to get better. If VA can make the cash then why stop them? After all, its the tax on their company that benefits the USA!

[Edited 2006-10-10 17:59:13]
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13684
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:57 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 25):
And when I can fly DL or CO to LHR, I'll be much more interested in hearing about "open and free competition" from our friends across the pond.

Hmm. confused 

Last time I checked, Bermuda II was a bi-lateral agreement. scratchchin 
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 12:58 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 25):
And when I can fly DL or CO to LHR, I'll be much more interested in hearing about "open and free competition" from our friends across the pond.



Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):
Free trade and enterprise are being held up by the medieval rules preventing some US airlines from serving Heathrow. All this is is tit-for-tat.

I didnt say we in the EU are any better, I just think the much-trumpeted free enterprise, land of opportunity, consumer capitalism, land of the free etc - ought to perhaps act as it is supposed to instead of living the lie.

We arent any better, mind.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
kaddyuk
Posts: 3697
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:04 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:00 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 33):
We arent any better, mind.

We are better,

We offer Openskies agreement to every other airport in the EU... Take your pick, there are thousands of them...

just because they cant have LHR, they think that equates to closing off an entire market! and anyways, the USA SIGNED the Bermuda and so obviously agree's with its policy!!
Whoever said "laughter is the best medicine" never had Gonorrhea
 
B737900ER
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:26 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 19):
Continental is the one that surprises me, it has a code share with Virgin Atlantic to LHR, it must not be to important to them.

why would that matter if Virgin Atlantic and Virgin America are seperate airlines run by seperate people?
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2001 12:12 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 34):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 33):
We arent any better, mind.

We are better,

We offer Openskies agreement to every other airport in the EU... Take your pick, there are thousands of them...

just because they cant have LHR, they think that equates to closing off an entire market! and anyways, the USA SIGNED the Bermuda and so obviously agree's with its policy!!

*runs for cover*

Now youve done it! Big grin
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
SFOFlyer
Posts: 126
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 5:57 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:11 am

On Friday, I flew out on UA 977 from SFO-MEX and saw the Virgin America A320 sitting over at the Jet Center across the airport. Nice looking plane...

I believe that there was another post in the forum talking about the photo shoots that they were doing of the A320 for the upcoming annoucement.

[Edited 2006-10-10 19:21:36]
UA 1K Million Mile Flyer
 
rentonview
Posts: 172
Joined: Mon May 16, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:10 am

Quoting Kappel (Reply 29):
But then what happens when China wants to start "China Far Western Airline" and install USA puppets into ownership and control positions?

...and hire American crews and ground staff, and buy Boeing aircraft, and fly underserved/monopolized routes? Horrors!

I, for one, would love to fly "China Far Western Airlines" from FAT-ORD, SEA-MSY, or FAI-ANC. Especially if they served delicious chinese meals!
 
captainstorck
Posts: 51
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 1:40 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Pilotfox (Reply 2):
I'm curious as to where this Virgin America aircraft is right now. There are at least two out in RME, Rome, NY.

There were three of them at RME last week, along with one of the new Skybus aircraft.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:26 am

It is good business sense for AA/CO to raise objections. Much better for them to spend a few hundred thousand $$ on lawyers if by doing so you can delay/impede your competition in any way. They might even get lucky for a while if they get a sympathic judge. Ultimately I believe VA will get off the ground, just exactly when I don't know.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 40):
It is good business sense for AA/CO to raise objections. Much better for them to spend a few hundred thousand $$ on lawyers if by doing so you can delay/impede your competition in any way. They might even get lucky for a while if they get a sympathic judge. Ultimately I believe VA will get off the ground, just exactly when I don't know.

Right now it is just AA/CO wait in time the others will join the fight and further delay the start up. If you ask me the other airlines are waiting and letting AA/CO fight the fight and spend the dollars, once that is looking like it is over the other will come to the table as well.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
kappel
Posts: 1836
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 6:48 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting RentonView (Reply 38):
Quoting Kappel (Reply 29):
But then what happens when China wants to start "China Far Western Airline" and install USA puppets into ownership and control positions?

Please don't misquote me, I never said that. I also disagreed with that post...
L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
 
travellin'man
Posts: 469
Joined: Sun May 13, 2001 1:55 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:35 am

All of this, I think, goes back to something called the Jones Transportation Act, which governs ALL domestic commercial transportation, ie, anything or anyone moved from two points within America. It applies to ships (cruise and cargo), trucks, trains, and planes, even buses. The only exception that I know of are foreign flagged cruise ships that depart and arrive from/at the same port.

The original intent (I believe this takes us back to the war of 1812) was to prevent foreign influence, especially on the part of the British; the fledgling nation felt itself vulnerable to meddling from more established powers abroad.

The argument over whether or not it should be upheld is complex, certainly. In the case of shipping, for example, where ownership is such a murky affair (notice how when a Liberian flagged tanker cracks up and dumps thousands of barrels of oil into the ocean, they can never find the owners, because it goes from one shell company to another), domestic ownership serves in part to ensure a certain safety standard and level of accountability. US shippers are very competitive and safe, in fact, although some fo the grain states along the Miss. river make noise about wanting to let foreign owned ships pick up and drop off within the US (remember the Chinese cargo ship that plowed into the tourist dock in New orleans about 10 years ago? Ain't gonna happen...).

Airlines are more transparent, or so it seems, and the case could be made more readily that owners are more easily held accountable, even more easily found!

Then again, the argument could be made that a foreign owned subsidiary could run at a loss, or just at break even, against the major US carriers as a way for the foreign parent to beat up on someone who is their competitor on an intl. level (sort of what Walmart is famous for doing to local businesses). So foreign influence can still be contrued to be an issue.

The main problem is that this act is all-encompassing and very structurally rigid; revisiting it is a mammoth task that no one wants to take on. The market, even in its protected state (the liberal use of bankruptcy as a way to function, for example), is pretty competitive as is, consumers seem relatively happy, and so there is no pressing need for politicians to take this on, especially with US airlines lobbying them not to.

Social forces are probably against it, and I predict inertia will prevail.
It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
 
LawnDart
Posts: 862
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:33 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 19):
Are 30 A320 going to really hurt AA or UA,

Independance Air trashed yields by offering fares at below cost, and their weapon of choice was the lowly CRJ...

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 22):
I mean, from SFO, there are some locations unserved which could benefit from service.

I guarantee Virgin America will not start by offering service from SFO to Wichita...the majority of LCCs in the United States are jumping into the JFK-FLL type markets.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 24):
What exactly are you so scared of? I thought open and free competition was the best thing for the consumer?

Open and free? Then why did Richard Branson need to loan more money to Virgin America...is Virgin Group subsidizing VA? How free is that? I believe part of AA and CO's argument is that VA is pushing the limits as far as ownership is concerned. And if a company offers something at below cost, the consumer will pay, eventually.

Personally, I have no problem with foreign ownership of U.S. airlines...if Daimler can own Chrysler, why can't Air France buy Delta? However, as the law currently stands...
 
UALMMFlyer
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2005 8:51 pm

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:03 am

I saw two Virgina America A320 at YUL two weeks ago.
Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
 
gabypn1992
Posts: 69
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:01 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting UALmMflyer (Reply 45):

Yes, you're right, there's two Virgin stored at Montreal-Trudeau since a long time ago.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Eric Fortin - AirTeamImages


[Edited 2006-10-10 22:37:12]
Fly With Me!!!
 
pilotfox
Posts: 282
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:31 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:43 am

Is there any particualr reason their aircraft are scattered all across North America?
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13626
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting Kaddyuk (Reply 31):
Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 27):
It uses public infrastructure and a limited public airspace

Not the airline's fault... they pay to use infrastructure and airspace, its your governments responsibility to ensure that it grows with the airlines that want to offer a service.

Not the airline's fault, but it IS the airline's problem.

And please tell me how you can grow airspace.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
JetBlueAUS
Topic Author
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2006 9:15 am

RE: Virgin America Readies For Takeoff

Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting TropicBird (Reply 21):
Nothing personal, but I vote NO for now.

Well, so much for free market competition?  sarcastic 
Not all of us can be heroes, some of us can only stand on the sidewalk and clap as they go by.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos