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BNE
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Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:04 pm

Melbourne could join Sydney as a future Australian hub for Virgin Atlantic, according to its new Australia general manager Jonathan Harding.

He told Travel Today the Victorian state capital was on the radar although no firm plans are yet in place. Asked if Melbourne was on the cards, Harding said: “I think so. We are getting passengers flying from Melbourne and onto our Sydney to London route so there is certainly the possibility.”

Initially however, he said Virgin was committed to its daily Sydney route. "It takes two to three years make money but we launched Sydney less than two years and we have just started making a profit,” Harding said.

http://www.travelweekly.com.au/dirpl...ekly/TravelTodayPDF/11_10_2006.pdf

Looks like Brisbane aren't good enough.
Why fly non stop when you can connect
 
sam1987
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting BNE (Thread starter):
Melbourne could join Sydney as a future Australian hub for Virgin Atlantic

Do you mean destination rather than hub?

A LHR to MEL service operated by VS probably wouldn't be profitable. BA has recently cut down services to Oz; it axed MEL and cut capacity on the SYD route.

Quoting BNE (Thread starter):
We are getting passengers flying from Melbourne and onto our Sydney to London route

Surely that is a reason not to operate a service direct to MEL, because it will just take passengers from its SYD service?
Next flights: LGW-LBA-LGW, LHR-SIN-SYD, SYD-BKK-LHR, LGW-GRO, GRO-CIA, CIA-MAD, MAD-LGW
 
Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:47 am

Maybe VS just started making money on LHR-SYD, but looking at the middle East carrier's fleet growth and aggressive expansions I don't think VS should be too certain that this will continue.

In this light, a service to MEL seems like a rather bad idea. Maybe there'll be a bit to gain from OS' withdrawal from VIE-MEL soon, but still... launching new services EU-Australia when the M.E. carriers are building up capacity enough to transport the entire population of MEL and SYD to Europe simultaneously, I don't think it's a good idea.. Sadly though, I love VS!!!

Kevin777
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jacobin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting BNE (Thread starter):

Initially however, he said Virgin was committed to its daily Sydney route. "It takes two to three years make money but we launched Sydney less than two years and we have just started making a profit,” Harding said.

I'm glad to hear VS is finally making  dollarsign  on this route...a few A.net members were questiong the viability of this route for VS....

That being said, I'm a bit curious as to how this potential new route would pan out.. scratchchin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
Concorde001
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 1):
A LHR to MEL service operated by VS probably wouldn't be profitable. BA has recently cut down services to Oz; it axed MEL and cut capacity on the SYD route.

If I'm not mistaken, BA did not stop flying to MEL because the flights were unprofitable. Rather, BA needed the four 744s deployed on the route for their expansion, particularly India and China, where higher profits could be made than flying to MEL.
 
kesflyer
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:59 am

About time MEL had something from Europe. Once OS and BA are out, there are no other European Airlines into MEL.

It is amazing when you consider that in the past MEL had European airliens such KL, LH, AZ, OA, JU and also a shortlived airline from Bulgaria.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:32 am

Contrary to seemingly everyone here I think MEL is a great idea for VS, given that there's no European airline presence there (or won't have soon), VS would certainly get good business.

Now, which Asian port will this flight route through I wonder ...

And I was surprised to read in that article that the SYD flight is starting to be profitable, obviously they're starting to fill the HKG-SYD sector rather well.
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:02 am

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 1):
A LHR to MEL service operated by VS probably wouldn't be profitable. BA has recently cut down services to Oz; it axed MEL and cut capacity on the SYD route.

What BA did has nothing to do with profitability of the sector.

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 2):
launching new services EU-Australia when the M.E. carriers are building up capacity enough to transport the entire population of MEL and SYD to Europe simultaneously, I don't think it's a good idea..

Ummm, last time I checked, QR could not secure adequate entitlements to launch services, and EK was blocked from further expansion. I think the timing for VS to enter is perfect. Mid East carriers blocked, while BA and OS suspensions means more pax for them to pick up!

Quoting Concorde001 (Reply 4):
If I'm not mistaken, BA did not stop flying to MEL because the flights were unprofitable. Rather, BA needed the four 744s deployed on the route for their expansion, particularly India and China, where higher profits could be made than flying to MEL.

Spot on. Someone that knows that they're talking about!
 
Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 6):
Now, which Asian port will this flight route through I wonder ...

Maybe KUL like OS do (did..)??? Maybe SQ wouldn't be happy about SIN? Could VS obtain 5th freedom on HKG-MEL?

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 7):
Ummm, last time I checked, QR could not secure adequate entitlements to launch services, and EK was blocked from further expansion. I think the timing for VS to enter is perfect. Mid East carriers blocked, while BA and OS suspensions means more pax for them to pick up!

Yes.. but isn't it just a matter of time before ME carriers obtain more of these rights?? With all their a/c on order they'd do all the lobbying in the world to put them to work. Of course VS could fill the void in between, but if it took two years to reach profitability on LHR-SYD, this might not be worth it.

Also, and I know I'm disagreeing with almost all on this thread now, but BA withtracting from LHR-MEL because a/c was needed on other routes should ONLY be a temporary reason for this. BA would be very aware of this. An airline - and particularly a major player like BA - would not pull out of a route for good just because it doesn't have capacity. And let's not forget that OS withtracted because it was making quite big losses.. I know that VS might have a bette shot than VS because of more p-t-p, but still I think it would be a risky option for VS.

BUT STILL.... VS RULES.. and I wish them ALL THE BEST!!!  Cool

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
kesflyer
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:30 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 7):
What BA did has nothing to do with profitability of the sector.

If they pulled out just due to lack of aircraft, then surely they will return when they get more aircraft.

Honestly cannot see this happening. A profit is a profit and if it existed, BA woudl still be flying into MEL. They just do not want to compete on this route anymore with the likes of EK and QF.

EK and QF have the kangaroo route sewn up for now and VS offers a viable alternative.

Hope they make it.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:40 pm

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 9):
A profit is a profit and if it existed, BA woudl still be flying into MEL.

Spot on...
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
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Richard28
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:12 pm

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 9):
They just do not want to compete on this route anymore with the likes of EK and QF

BA did not compete with QF - and thats the point here.

BA still flies to MEL through its codeshare with QF.
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 10):
Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 9):
A profit is a profit and if it existed, BA woudl still be flying into MEL.

Spot on...

How can you possibly over simplify the issue.
If Melbourne generated say $20mi in profit utilising 3 aircraft for daily services, but BA could gnereate $10 mil per year for daily BOM-LHR, $10 mil per year for LHR-xx for aircraft 2, and $10 mil for LR-xxx suing aircraft three, trust me, they would cut MEL or any route for that matter.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:23 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 12):
How can you possibly over simplify the issue.
If Melbourne generated say $20mi in profit utilising 3 aircraft for daily services, but BA could gnereate $10 mil per year for daily BOM-LHR, $10 mil per year for LHR-xx for aircraft 2, and $10 mil for LR-xxx suing aircraft three, trust me, they would cut MEL or any route for that matter.

1) Don't think BA generates any profit on LHR-BOM, but that's another thread...

2) If what you mention were the case, then BA would find extra capacity somewhere, for sure - you don't let ten millions go just because you don't have the capacity. I know that you don't find a 747 in the local 7-11, but surely it could be done in a matter of months if $ 10 mill. was at stake.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
anstar
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:26 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 7):
What BA did has nothing to do with profitability of the sector.

Actually, that is exactly why BA pulled out of Melbourne. They could turn better profit elsewhere with those assets.
 
lovinitflyboy
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 9):
Honestly cannot see this happening. A profit is a profit and if it existed, BA woudl still be flying into MEL. They just do not want to compete on this route anymore with the likes of EK and QF.

The UK to Australia route is a profit share route for BA and QF, through the codeshare with QF, BA still get a share of the profit even though the don't fly there anymore! I'm sure the same applied to the other Australian cities that BA pulled eg: PER, ADL and BNE.
 
VHXLR8
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:50 pm

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 2):
when the M.E. carriers are building up capacity enough to transport the entire population of MEL and SYD to Europe simultaneously

Hmmm, transporting close to 10 million people simultaneously?? They must be planning some HUGE increases in capacity.
 
BCAL
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:04 pm

LHR-MEL was a profitable route for BA, but because 3.5 aircraft were needed to operate a daily service in both directions, and the aircraft were on the ground for most of the day at MEL, it was not a high earning route. This is even more so when you consider also that two separate cabin and two separate flight deck crews are needed for each service in both directions (and the crews are away from base for 10 days in total), that fares for the route were roughly the same as between LHR and the western seaboard of the USA, and that LHR-MEL did not attract as much premium traffic as LHR-SYD. BA has a JSA with QF. If QF was happy to operate the route on their own, sharing revenues with BA in accordance with the JSA, and BA could make a better profit if they reallocated their aircraft to other routes, then that was a sensible business move on BA’s part.

Personally I cannot see VS entering, let alone succeeding, on the LHR-MEL route, particularly as all other European airlines have realised that the economics of the route are not attractive.

I am also dubious that VS is making any profit on the LHR-SYD route. First because SYD is really an extension of VS’s LHR-HKG service. VS had said that because of high loads on the LHR-HKG leg, there was limited availability of seats for the HKG-SYD leg where their daily service competes head-on with CX and QF’s multiple frequency services. Remember that VS are now reducing their capacity on the LHR-HKG leg. Secondly, SYD is only operated, as Branson believes it is a privileged route for his brand, and his co-directors are aghast that VS entered the UK-Australia route. VS would hardly admit they were losing money on the LHR-SYD route, if that was the case.

Remember also: It has been often stated that due to the economies of the operations, BA would not hesitate to pull out of the Australian market if they could. The statement of VS flying to Melbourne did not come from Branson (who customarily makes all announcements for new VS’s routes), or from the top of VS, but from their new Australian General Manager who said, “….there were no firm plans yet in place.”

[Edited 2006-10-12 10:09:19]
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Leezyjet
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 17):
Remember that VS are now reducing their capacity on the LHR-HKG leg.

No they are not, the capacity is still the same. Sure they were going to start a 2nd daily service, but as this didn't happen then there was no increase in capacity to begin with therefore they haven't reduced anything.

They have done what BA have done on the MEL route, and re-assigned the a/c to a route that they believe they can make more profit on (but did it before the route actually started), although I personally think they would have made more on a 2nd HK than a CPT service, as I hear that HK flights were nearly always full before the SYD extention. However maybe they were trying to pre-empt the new Air New Zealand service and the Oasis Airlines service if that ever starts.

 Smile
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HKGKaiTak
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:11 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 8):
Maybe KUL like OS do (did..)??? Maybe SQ wouldn't be happy about SIN? Could VS obtain 5th freedom on HKG-MEL?

Maybe that could be where this second HKG-LHR flight comes from, if it comes true again - there was a piece in today's Travel Today about this possibility again by VS's GM here in Oz, which I found a bit weird.

But CX has just gone 3x daily to MEL, as they have in SYD, so how successful a VS flight could be via HKG is a big question.

I was thinking, what about a Chinese port? Say CAN, PVG or PEK? Or maybe something smaller? Certainly the loads (if not the yields) from Oz into China could sustain such a service - if the China-London part loads alright.
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
kesflyer
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:25 am

Suppose some routes are more profitable than others for BA and for all airlines.

Why don't they just fly a handful of super profit routes and dump the rest.

No airline woudl pull a route if there were $$$ to be made. Sure they may now codeshare with QF and make some $$, however it was a profitable route, then they would be making more $$$ utilising their own aircraft. No question here.. otherwise they woudl simply dump many more routes and simply codeshare with the OneWorld partners.

I mean, why doesn't BA pull out of SYD and make the huge $$$ codesharing with QF.. Simple... they make more going it alone.

One reason that codeshares exist because the airline not actually flying the route cannot make $$$ with their own aircraft. If they could, they would eventually find the aircraft to do so.

VS shoudl fill the void left by BA on this route and goodluck to them.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 20):
I mean, why doesn't BA pull out of SYD and make the huge $$$ codesharing with QF.. Simple... they make more going it alone.

They're "downgrading" one of the SYD flights to 777 soon (next week?) ... so the 3 x 747s would be deployed somewhere else!

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 20):
VS shoudl fill the void left by BA on this route and goodluck to them.

That's their plan, I have a thread coming up about that ...
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
VHVXB
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 8):
Maybe KUL like OS do (did..)??? Maybe SQ wouldn't be happy about SIN? Could VS obtain 5th freedom on HKG-MEL?

KUL would be ideal as only MH serves KUL-MEL

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 9):
EK and QF have the kangaroo route sewn up for now and VS offers a viable alternative.

Far from it so many different carriers fly this route

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 21):
so the 3 x 747s would be deployed somewhere else!

The LHR-SIN-SYD flight is being downgraded
 
6thfreedom
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 19):
But CX has just gone 3x daily to MEL, as they have in SYD,

CX has announced triple daily second half of 2007.... Services have not yet commenced!

Although the new services WILL connect both ways from LHR.

11:35a LHR 3 7:25a+1 HKG CX 252 Non-stop 744 11:50

HKG 09.00 MEL 21.00

MEL 00.20 HKG 07.00

9:20a HKG 3:00p LHR 3 CX 257 Non-stop 343 13:40
 
Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:58 pm

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 20):
No airline woudl pull a route if there were $$$ to be made. Sure they may now codeshare with QF and make some $$, however it was a profitable route, then they would be making more $$$ utilising their own aircraft. No question here.. otherwise they woudl simply dump many more routes and simply codeshare with the OneWorld partners.

So, you are saying that BA pulled out of LHR-MEL because there wasn't money to be made, right..??

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 20):
VS shoudl fill the void left by BA on this route and goodluck to them.

Well, if BA wasn't making money on the route, then there was not left any market void in the first place, was there? Unless VS should have some pretty huge advantages as opposed to BA flying UK-Aus, and I don't belive that is the case.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
parisien
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:56 pm

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 20):
why doesn't BA pull out of SYD and make the huge $$$ codesharing with QF

they have to as it is part of the JSA ! ie BA cannot codeshare all with QF without flying its metal to Australia.
 
kesflyer
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 24):
Well, if BA wasn't making money on the route, then there was not left any market void in the first place, was there? Unless VS should have some pretty huge advantages as opposed to BA flying UK-Aus, and I don't belive that is the case.

For this to be the case, you are assuming that BA and VS have same cost structure.

Just because BA is pulling out, does not mean that there is no market left. AZ, LH, OA, JU, KL to name a few, have pulled out of Australia completely. Was this due to lack of a market ?? I doubt it !!! By far EK have taken over this market as well as SQ, TG and GF.

VS will do well as long as it is price competitive and / or offers a little bit of excitement inflight. If they can get HKG-MEL rights thrown in as a little cream, then am sure they will start this route eventually.
 
chinaeastern
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Mon Oct 16, 2006 10:55 am

LHR-PVG-MEL would be nice. VS already serves PVG and LHR-PVG sector is doing well while there is no competition on PVG-MEL.
 
kesflyer
Posts: 80
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting Chinaeastern (Reply 27):
LHR-PVG-MEL would be nice. VS already serves PVG and LHR-PVG sector is doing well while there is no competition on PVG-MEL.

As long as both Oz and Chinese authorities permit.

China - OZ growing market !!
 
anstar
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting HKGKaiTak (Reply 21):
That's their plan, I have a thread coming up about that ...

I believe QF filled that void by adding LHR-HKG-MEL
 
Kevin777
Posts: 951
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:36 pm

RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 26):
Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 24):
Well, if BA wasn't making money on the route, then there was not left any market void in the first place, was there? Unless VS should have some pretty huge advantages as opposed to BA flying UK-Aus, and I don't belive that is the case.

For this to be the case, you are assuming that BA and VS have same cost structure.

Uhhh... yes, that's also what I have said in my previous post.. I don't believe VS has significant cost advantages over BA flying UK-Aus. Same goes for revenue adv. There might be some, but hardly enough to justify a VS LHR-MEL service but not a BA service.

Quoting Kesflyer (Reply 26):
Just because BA is pulling out, does not mean that there is no market left

Yes it does indeed, with EK and all the other 6th freedom carriers in the picture that you mention.

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
bastew
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:20 pm

MEL was only profitable for BA seasonally.

The first idea that was floated before axing the route was to offer MEL as an extension of LHR/SIN/SYD (the aircraft spends around 10 hours on the ground in Sydney).

But, as was the case with BNE a few years back (the flight used to be operated via SYD as an extention of that flight), BA worked out it would be more expensive to operate the return service from Sydney rather than keep the aircraft on the ground. Same as in South Africa.

Also is the question of operation reliability. Anyone who took the LHR-KUL-SYD-BNE service will remember how often the SKY-BNE-SYD sectors were 'cancelled' through 'lack of demand'.

The a/c downtime in SYD also helps to reduce knock on delays as the aircraft actually ahs time to be repaired should their be a problem, so a 3 hour inbound delay due to a technical fault won't lead to a 3 hour outbound delay.

Emirates seem to have tapped into a good market in OZ with operating short flights to NZ while the aircraft otherwise probably would be on the ground. A shame BA can't find some suitable routes.

Alliances have done much to change the structure of our route network at BA. We can concentrate on non-stop routes from London which generate more £ per mile, yet still keep a presence in markets we don't share thru oneworld codeshares.

Personally, I really, REALLY doubt seeing Virgin Atlantic in any other ozzie city anytime soon.
 
Kevin777
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RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting BAStew (Reply 31):
Personally, I really, REALLY doubt seeing Virgin Atlantic in any other ozzie city anytime soon.

Sad, but very true.  crying 

Kevin777
"I was waiting for you at DFW, but you must have been in LUV" CPH-HAM-CPH CR9
 
bastew
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Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 9:21 pm

RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Kevin777 (Reply 30):
For this to be the case, you are assuming that BA and VS have same cost structure.

I agree with Kevin777 here. I reckon that BA and VS would have fairly similar costs on the route. Employee costs may be a little higher at BA but that would be about it. Catering, fuel, airport charges etc would be quite similar.

Another reason that MEL or BNE isn't really viable for either BA or VS is the equipment used. Being a continuation of their far east services, it is difficult enough to fill a jumbo of A340-600 to Sydney let alone MEL or BNE.

Qantas on the other hand could put a 767 or A330 on their SE Asia to MEL/BNE services which is a lot easier to fill and cheaper to fly.
 
6thfreedom
Posts: 2615
Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: Virgin Atlantic Looking At Flying To Melbourne

Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:13 am

Quoting Chinaeastern (Reply 27):
LHR-PVG-MEL would be nice. VS already serves PVG and LHR-PVG sector is doing well while there is no competition on PVG-MEL.

VS would absolute cream the competition on PVG.
QF is via SYD with terminal change both ways, while MU and CA operate via SYD outbound, which doesn't give them any advantage over QF.
That is why SQ and CX have piciked so much business. easier to transit over their hubs than SYD!

Quoting ANstar (Reply 29):
I believe QF filled that void by adding LHR-AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG-MEL

Hardly...
QF replaced A330/297 seats to AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG with B744/379 seat to AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG AND LHR.
an extra 82 seats when shared with LHR is a backward step.
plus the fact the AND OLD: Hong Kong - Kai Tak International (HKG / VHHH) (closed), China - Hong Kong">HKG-MEL is now a 900 departure instead of 1900, which isn't very appealling to the local market!

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