HB-IWC
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KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:13 am

Effective the 2007 northern summer schedules, KLM and Northwest are introducing an interesting new development in transatlantic air travel: the early morning transatlantic departure bank.

Apparently anticipating an expected drop off in the amount of connecting traffic through the AMS hub from various longhaul destinations in Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent because of an increasing number of nonstop flights to the US from these areas, KLM and Northwest are trying to facilitate connections and lure connecting passengers by offering a sharply decreased transit time.

So far, KL/NW had been operating just one early morning interhub flight on the busy AMS DTW route, yet from the summer of 2007 onward, that number will at least quadruple with the introduction of early morning departures to Boston, Newark and Los Angeles. Here are the proposed schedules of this transtatlantic mini departure bank:

NW039/KL6039 AMS DTW 0800 1040 (A333)
NW059/KL6059 AMS BOS 0810 1005 (B752)
KL603/NW8603 AMS LAX 0810 1020 (B772)
NW063/KL6063 AMS EWR 0815 1040 (B752)

The introduction of these additional flights so early in the morning can only be explained by a combined effort of the airlines involved to counterattack an increasing number of nonstop flights to the US from destations in India, the Middle East and Africa by airlines like American, Continental, Delta, Emirates, Qatar and SAA, making the one stop option less competitive.

Indeed, there is virtually no European feed from the KLM regional network, so these flights can only be sustained by either local boardings or connecting traffic from KLM's early morning longhaul arrivals bank, which carries flights from the likes of Lagos, Accra, Kano, Abuja, Nairobi, Entebbe, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Khartoum, Addis Abeba, Dammam, Doha, Mumbai (NW) and Delhi.

It will be interesting to see whether this new strategy will enable KLM and Northwest to sustain yields on increasinly competitive routes between the Indian subcontinent, the Middle East and Africa and the US.
 
AirScoot
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:54 am

Is there any word what the inbound flights will be for this or are they expecting a quick turn on the overnight eastbound transatlantics?
 
SR 103
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:57 am

Well this is certainly an interesting tactic. I for one welcome the change. I have taken the 8am to DTW before and I have to say, reaching Orlando by 1pm was amazing after a long night of travel from India or the Middle East.

I however doubt many people are willing to pay much more for a shorter transit time, but only time will tell. I on the other hand opted to fly back via the Pacific this January rather than take the traditional stop in Europe. It was cheaper!

SR 103
 
A388
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:01 am

As always, thanks for the interesting thread HB-IWC. It seems that NW will be using the 752 to AMS starting the summer 2007 season? The use of this smaller aircraft has to do with the increased competition from Africa, the Middle East and the Indian Subcontinent? Interesring.

A388
 
dz09
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:06 am

I do not mind flying with KLM from EWR to the middle east or the far east, I actually fly a lot with them from AMS, but they need to check their pricing scheme. It is so damn expensive to fly with them from the US.
 
flyguy1
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:30 am

What time is the new JFK flight scheduled to depart?
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departur

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:07 pm

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 5):
What time is the new JFK flight scheduled to depart?

I don't believe there will be a change with KL641/642 and KL643/644

The EWR flight is the one changing, KL657/658 is being taken over by Northwest as NW63/64 and will depart EWR at 16:45.

HB-IWC,

I thought that Northwest was only going to operate NW63/64 from November to March, has that been extended into the summer? I remeber reading that KL657/658 would be an MD-11 over the summer.
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Avianca
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:15 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Indeed, there is virtually no European feed from the KLM regional network, so these flights can only be sustained by either local boardings or connecting traffic from KLM's early morning longhaul arrivals bank, which carries flights from the likes of Lagos, Accra, Kano, Abuja, Nairobi, Entebbe, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Khartoum, Addis Abeba, Dammam, Doha, Mumbai (NW) and Delhi.

I think the early morning depatures get a healty feeder with the mentioned citys, + the local passengers (adding passengers from Belgium, part of germany, that are travelling to AMS via train or car) the flights should be work.
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HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting AirScoot (Reply 1):
Is there any word what the inbound flights will be for this or are they expecting a quick turn on the overnight eastbound transatlantics?

That is an interesting question. So far, it looks like the 757 departures will be fed by early morning arrivals from EWR (NW064 at 06.10) and BDL (NW098 at 06.45) which would make for two short turnarounds, whereas the A333 departure to DTW is likely to originate in DTW as NW040 with an arrival time is AMS of 05.55. KLM can choose from a number of incoming B772s for its KL603 LAX departure.

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 5):
What time is the new JFK flight scheduled to depart?

That is so far unclear. The two airlines are currently pondering over EWR: this summer's capacity of one daily A332 and two additional weekly B772s would be replaced by just one daily B752 next summer. That is obviously far from sufficient, so extra capacity might be added to EWR by either KLM with an evening departure or NW with another B752 rotation. A potential third JFK roundtrip by KLM is likely to depart in the 10am longhaul departure bank with a return from JFK around 4pm and an arrival back in AMS around 6am.
 
flyguy1
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:20 pm

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 6):
I don't believe there will be a change with KL641/642 and KL643/644

IIRC, the press release did indicate a new third daily AMS-JFK flight. This was to be made possible by NW taking over the EWR route from KLM.
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HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:24 pm

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 6):
I thought that Northwest was only going to operate NW63/64 from November to March, has that been extended into the summer? I remeber reading that KL657/658 would be an MD-11 over the summer.

You are right. NW will take over AMS EWR on November 26 until the end of March. Right now, KLM is scheduled to take over the flight at the beginning of the summer schedule with MD11 for a month or two after which the NW B752 will fly the route. It is highly unlikely, though, that this NW B752 will be the only flight on the route for the remainder of the summer and it is not impossible that KLM will anyway stay on the route.

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 6):
I don't believe there will be a change with KL641/642 and KL643/644

KL641/642 and KL643/644 will likely remain unchanged but current plans call for a third AMS JFK roundtrip by KLM once NW takes over the EWR route. This flight is likely to depart in the 10am departure bank. Nevertheless, as I said before, I do not believe that the AMS EWR route will be left with just one daily B752.
 
Avianca
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 9):
IIRC, the press release did indicate a new third daily AMS-JFK flight. This was to be made possible by NW taking over the EWR route from KLM.

wow much capacity maybe to much, as I understand KL has not much conections ex JFK to offer...??
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HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:14 pm

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 5):
What time is the new JFK flight scheduled to depart?



Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 9):
the press release did indicate a new third daily AMS-JFK flight

The third daily AMS JFK flight has now been scheduled:

KL645 AMS JFK 1015 1230
KL646 JFK AMS 1610 0600

The existing flights KL641/642 and KL643/644 remain unchanged.
 
AF022
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:01 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
KL645 AMS JFK 1015 1230
KL646 JFK AMS 1610 0600

That schedule dramatically improves connections from Africa and Middle East to JFK. KLM was completely noncompetitive before.
 
MEACEDAR
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:06 pm

KLM has dropped some Middle East routes like BEY, DAM, and AMM. I think these are 3 very important routes. What do you think?
 
flyingfool
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:24 pm

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 14):
KLM has dropped some Middle East routes like BEY, DAM, and AMM. I think these are 3 very important routes

This routes are discontinued due low yields, so not really imported for KL, at least not that important as adding flights to North America...

Regards, Flyingfool
 
NWBOS
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:35 pm

It'll be interesting to see what happens with the BOS 757. Right now, it is scheduled to sit in BOS for 12 hours before going back to AMS. You'd think it'd make more sense to at least use that time for a DTW turn. That would add another 1-stop frequency between AMS-DTW. I just don't see the plane sitting for 12 hours. Massport will want to charge an arm and a leg for a parking spot.
 
BHMNONREV
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:35 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
Indeed, there is virtually no European feed from the KLM regional network, so these flights can only be sustained by either local boardings or connecting traffic from KLM's early morning longhaul arrivals bank, which carries flights from the likes of Lagos, Accra, Kano, Abuja, Nairobi, Entebbe, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Bahrain, Khartoum, Addis Abeba, Dammam, Doha, Mumbai (NW) and Delhi.

I certainly welcome this, as I use this routing quite often now from KWI-AMS-USA (usually the ATL n/s or BHM via DTW) and that short transit time is a welcome sight for travelling between the MidEast and the USA. The first NW flight arrives DTW around 10am so you can be connected and on your way by noon in most cases.

And from the Middle East KL/NW consistently has the lowest fares from the region so for me it makes way too much sense...
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:57 pm

AMS-EWR plans:
Nov-March '07: NW A330-300
April-July '07: KLM MD-11
July '07 - Beyond: KLM A330-200 & NW 757-200
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:29 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):
July '07 - Beyond: KLM A330-200 & NW 757-200

That's right, and the KLM A332 service will likely move from the morning to the afternoon or evening, because the current schedule with a 09.30 departure would be too close to the new NW B752 departure at 08.10. The problem, however, seems to be the availability of slots and gates at EWR for a rescheduled KL657/658 AMS EWR AMS service.
 
flyguy1
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
The third daily AMS JFK flight has now been scheduled:

KL645 AMS JFK 1015 1230
KL646 JFK AMS 1610 0600

Thanks for that, what tye A/C will this utilize?
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 20):
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
The third daily AMS JFK flight has now been scheduled:

KL645 AMS JFK 1015 1230
KL646 JFK AMS 1610 0600

Thanks for that, what tye A/C will this utilize?

Any chance we will see the 777-300ER or an MD-11 operating KL645/646?
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HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Sun Oct 15, 2006 9:48 am

Quoting Flyguy1 (Reply 20):
Thanks for that, what tye A/C will this utilize?



Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 21):
Any chance we will see the 777-300ER or an MD-11 operating KL645/646?

For now, the flight is planned to be operated with MD11, but a lot will depend on what is going to happen to the current KL657/658 AMS EWR flight, which might be rescheduled to an evening departure from AMS. If that is the case, the new JFK flight might even by operated with A332. The schedule is still under review, so changes are likely to happen.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departur

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19):
That's right, and the KLM A332 service will likely move from the morning to the afternoon or evening, because the current schedule with a 09.30 departure would be too close to the new NW B752 departure at 08.10. The problem, however, seems to be the availability of slots and gates at EWR for a rescheduled KL657/658 AMS EWR AMS service.

I was pretty sure that Northwest was taking over the EWR-AMS route on November 26th, right? I'm looking at flying KLM to MAD via AMS and returning on the 25th it shows Northwest 63 on an A330-300.
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PA110
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departur

Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting DZ09 (Reply 4):
I do not mind flying with KLM from EWR to the middle east or the far east, I actually fly a lot with them from AMS, but they need to check their pricing scheme. It is so damn expensive to fly with them from the US.

Don't blame KLM. Its the twats at NW's yield management department that set tariffs ex-USA. They have continuously set their fares higher than the rest of the pack in naive hopes that somehow people will pay more, only to be forced to dump seats at fire sale fares at the last minute when the pesky public decides there are plenty of lower priced alternatives. No wonder NW is in the shape its in. Can't really find pity for KLM. They made their bed with NW, they gave up control of trans-atlantic pricing to NW. (slightly off topic, sorry)

The addition of the earlier AMS westbound departures will definitely be fed from early AMS arrivals. It would seem that NW/KL are finally responding to the criticism of lousy schedules on top of expensive fares. Now we have better schedules, and hopes that perhaps with the increased capacity, NW will adjust their tariffs. They might actually sell more seats at a lower target yield, but higher than the fire sales that plague their current pricing scheme.

[Edited 2006-10-15 17:58:06]
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HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:05 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 23):
I was pretty sure that Northwest was taking over the EWR-AMS route on November 26th, right? I'm looking at flying KLM to MAD via AMS and returning on the 25th it shows Northwest 63 on an A330-300

That's right. From November 26 until the end of March, AMS EWR AMS will be operated by Northwest with A333. After that, KLM will take over the flight with MD11 as KL657/658 and in July the number of flights on the route will double with the addition of the early morning B752 departure from AMS operated by NW. KL657/658 will continue to operate, but might fly at different timings. An evening AMS departure is being considered for this flight.
 
bobnwa
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:29 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 24):
Don't blame KLM. Its the twats at NW's yield management department that set tariffs ex-USA. They have continuously set their fares higher than the rest of the pack in naive hopes that somehow people will pay more, only to be forced to dump seats at fire sale fares at the last minute when the pesky public decides there are plenty of lower priced alternatives. No wonder NW is in the shape its in. Can't really find pity for KLM. They made their bed with NW, they gave up control of trans-atlantic pricing to NW. (slightly off topic, sorry)

Other than the fact that the NWA pricing people control the fares ex US, not one other thing you wrote is true. Please back it up with numbers.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 25):
From November 26 until the end of March, AMS EWR AMS will be operated by Northwest with A333.

So I'm guessing on the 25th it will still be a KLM A330-200 and not a Northwest A330-300 as it says on the site?
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HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 27):
So I'm guessing on the 25th it will still be a KLM A330-200 and not a Northwest A330-300 as it says on the site?

November 25 should still see the KLM A332 on the route. I see it in my reservation system as well, and the NW A333 only appears from Sunday, November 26.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:45 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 28):
November 25 should still see the KLM A332 on the route. I see it in my reservation system as well, and the NW A333 only appears from Sunday, November 26.

I just realized that I would actually be flying AMS-EWR on the 26th, not the 25th. The MAD-AMS part of my flight would happen on the 25th.

So I guess this means I would be on the first Northwest A330-300 flight.
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lamedianaranja
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Thread starter):
the early morning transatlantic departure bank.

For me personally that will mean a lot more early morning shifts  yawn  when we start our new summer work schedule.

On the other hand, for me and my fellow employees who love to non-rev it's very good news as I expect the flights not to fill up as much as early afternoon flights do. So very welcome, KL 645 and KL 603 Big grin
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HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Lamedianaranja (Reply 30):
On the other hand, for me and my fellow employees who love to non-rev it's very good news as I expect the flights not to fill up as much as early afternoon flights do. So very welcome, KL 645 and KL 603

I think you are right, for sure for KL603. KL645, with a 10.15 departure should already benefit from European feed and will therefore likely fill up just as most other flights (KL661, KL621, KL611, KL797, KL591, KL597, you name them) in the 10am longhaul departure bank do.

It will be interesting to see what KL/NW will do with the 8am departures to LAX, EWR and BOS in case of late inbound early morning longhaul arrivals. The 8am transatlantic departures will be mostly sustained by connecting traffic from these overnight longhauls, and any severe inbound delays will likely result in large numbers of miscons. Will the departure of KL603 and the like be delayed to wait for these passengers or will the flights leave half empty?
 
Humberside
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 18):
July '07 - Beyond: KLM A330-200 & NW 757-200

So the press release stating that NW was taking over EWR was inaccurate?

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):
That is an interesting question. So far, it looks like the 757 departures will be fed by early morning arrivals from EWR (NW064 at 06.10) and BDL (NW098 at 06.45) which would make for two short turnarounds,

So is BDL in the new early departure bank from AMS with few European connections? If so that wont help the routes chances of success. Surely there needs to be connectings from the main European cities (such as LHR, CDG, FRA) at least
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Joost
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 32):
So is BDL in the new early departure bank from AMS with few European connections? If so that wont help the routes chances of success. Surely there needs to be connectings from the main European cities (such as LHR, CDG, FRA) at least

Just entering data into nwa.com (the flight is already bookable) and it gives me:
NW 98 BDL-AMS 17:45 - 06:45
NW 97 AMS-BDL 13:30 - 15:30

For the BOS 757
NW 60 BOS-AMS 22:00 - 11:00
NW 59 AMS-BOS 08:10 - 10:05

So it looks like the aircraft swap in AMS, the flight from BDL arriving 06:45 will depart for BOS 08:10, the BOS flight arriving 11:00 wil fly to BDL 13:30. So, the BDL flight will well connect to the complete European network of KLM, so they did their homework.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:25 am

Quoting Joost (Reply 33):
So it looks like the aircraft swap in AMS, the flight from BDL arriving 06:45 will depart for BOS 08:10, the BOS flight arriving 11:00 wil fly to BDL 13:30.

Actually, there are a couple of additional turn around patterns possible for the aircraft, as there will be 4 daily NW B752 arrivals and departures according to this pattern:

06.10 NW064 arrival from EWR
06.45 NW098 arrival from BDL

these aircraft used for

08.10 NW059 departure to BOS
08.15 NW063 departure to EWR

and latter is the day:

11.00 NW060 arrival from BOS
11.55 NW036 arrival from DTW

with these aircraft used for

12.55 NW035 departure to DTW
13.30 NW097 departure to BDL

All in all rather short turn around patterns for the B752 fleet in AMS, unless NW decides to permanently base one aircraft there, which is highly unlikely in this day and age.

Quoting Humberside (Reply 32):
So is BDL in the new early departure bank from AMS with few European connections? If so that wont help the routes chances of success. Surely there needs to be connectings from the main European cities (such as LHR, CDG, FRA) at least

With a 13.30 departure time NW097 AMS BDL will enjoy the feed from the entire KLM European network. Also NW098 BDL AMS, with a 06.45 arrival time at Schiphol will provide feed into the KLM network, so I'd say the new flights are adequately supported and sustainable in terms of connectivity.
 
dutchjet
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:01 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 34):
All in all rather short turn around patterns for the B752 fleet in AMS, unless NW decides to permanently base one aircraft there, which is highly unlikely in this day and age.

The turn times are tight, but very should not be a problem.....CO turns its 757s (and some 767s) in about 1.5 hours at many European stations. The early morning times should be beneficial, these aircraft will arrive, be turned and depart before the main morning rush at AMS.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 34):

With a 13.30 departure time NW097 AMS BDL will enjoy the feed from the entire KLM European network. Also NW098 BDL AMS, with a 06.45 arrival time at Schiphol will provide feed into the KLM network, so I'd say the new flights are adequately supported and sustainable in terms of connectivity.

This makes sense........the Hartford flight needs the European feed and connections to work and will benefit from the power of the AMS hub. The other early morning departures (which are to key US destinatons) should work on traffic originating in AMS and the select longhaul cities from which connections will be available. Its going to be very interesting to see which of these flights will work.......Detroit will, of course, not be a problem, due to the multitude of onward connections available at that NW hub (the early morning DTW departure is not really a new idea, NW flew this flight with a DC10 on and off over the years)......but I am curious to see if BOS and EWR work out. Also consider that CO has an early morning 752 departure out of AMS to EWR during the summer season (in addition to the afternoon flight) so there will be a good amount of capacity between AMS and EWR.

Thanks for the post, interesting analysis (as always).
 
HB-IWC
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RE: KL/NW New Early Morning Transatlantic Departures

Mon Oct 16, 2006 12:05 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
Detroit will, of course, not be a problem, due to the multitude of onward connections available at that NW hub (the early morning DTW departure is not really a new idea, NW flew this flight with a DC10 on and off over the years)

Actually, the AMS DTW early morning flight is operating right now with A333 and the flight seems to be doing just fine with very little support in terms of European feed. But indeed, DTW, much more than BOS, EWR or LAX can count on a plethora of onward connectiongs.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
but I am curious to see if BOS and EWR work out

Not to mention the AMS LAX early morning departure. BOS and EWR just need to fill a B752, but KLM is deploying no less than a B772 on the 08.10am LAX departure. That seems like a lot of plane to fill given the total absence of any European feed. Sure enough, the return portion of the flight with a noon departure from LAX will be popular, but is KLM going to sustain light loads on the outbound. I would have expected a smaller aircraft to be deployed initially - A332 comes to mind - and I predict that, if the route lasts, it will be moved to the 10am departure bank rather quickly.

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