JAM747
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Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:23 am

Are there any routes that AA could use a 777-300? The reason I ask is because I have travelled a few times to Brazil on AA and I spoken to friends and fellow passengers who travel more than I do on AA to other parts of the world, it always come up how some of these AA routes are always packed. I know that AA has alot of frequencies to many destinations so the 777-200 and smaller aircraft have worked well for their route structure and there have not been a need for larger a/c. There was a very long discussion on here recently regarding the future of AA but I did not see any reference to a 777-300 viabilty. I sure a-netters on here could give some insight on this probability if it would make sense or not. Thanks.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:28 am

They really like having the flexibility of the 772ER as the largest jet, and their 777s are RR.

But if they were to order the 772LR like DL, you might see them also order the 773ER. I sort of doubt either...
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jfk777
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:34 am

TO Sao Paulo, they may need to operate more flights with 772ER and not 767's. That would provide more seats in total. Miami to GRU is now 4 flights daily.
 
Avianca
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 1):
They really like having the flexibility of the 772ER as the largest jet, and their 777s are RR.

isnt teh A300 the biggest jet (due the seats) in the AA fleet?
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Stitch
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:23 am

Possibly on the LHR runs, just due to slot issues, but I tend to think they'll stick with the 777-200(ER/LR) and 787-10 as the "top end", at least for the near future.
 
baron95
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:30 am

The flights to Brazil are always full NOW because Varig has stopped flying their 777s to the US. However, to answer the OP's question you need to understand a few routes.

AA Flight 951 (B 772) that does JFK-GRU-GIG for example, starts out of LHR, flies over the atlantic, lands in the evening gets turned around to GRU the same night, flies a mostly empty short hop (200 miles) to GIG, rests for a few hours, flies a mostly empty short hop to GRU, then flies to JFK, lands at 6AM, gets turned around the same morning and flies to LHR, and repeats.

Flying a 773 over the Atlantic a few times a day may be harder to fill. Flying a 773 mostly empty for the GRU-GIG-GRU legs is VERY expensive. Then, traffic to BRazil is still somewhat seasonal and when a 773 is not full it is VERY expensive.

So all in all, AA opted for the flexibility in scheduling and the lower risk of flying a 772 vs a 773.

Now what they trully need to do is upgrade their 763s that fly MIA to Brazil - that is an awful ride. I'd love to see an all 772ER AA fleet or better yet an all 789 fleet - that would rock in flexibility and economics.
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777STL
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:36 am

AA seems to like the fact that they can send any one particular T7 on any T7 route in the system. AA likes frequency, not size. I also don't see them ordering the 772LR, mostly because they seem to be making the 772ER work on their very long distance routes.
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STT757
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:41 am

AA has more 777-200ERs than they need (IMO), adding 777-300ERs is not helpful.

What AA needs are 787s, and plenty of them.

First batch (2010) of 787 (787-3) to replace A300s and 767-200s
Second batch (2012) of 787s (787-8) to replace 767-300s
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N62NA
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:45 am

Seems like ever since AA got rid of the 747-100s back in the 70s, they've been quite comfy with D10-sized aircraft as their largest plane. The 777 seems to be a perfect D10 replacement for them.
 
JAM747
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 5):
The flights to Brazil are always full NOW because Varig has stopped flying their 777s to the US. However, to answer the OP's question you need to understand a few routes.

AA Flight 951 (B 772) that does JFK-GRU-GIG for example, starts out of LHR, flies over the atlantic, lands in the evening gets turned around to GRU the same night, flies a mostly empty short hop (200 miles) to GIG, rests for a few hours, flies a mostly empty short hop to GRU, then flies to JFK, lands at 6AM, gets turned around the same morning and flies to LHR, and repeats.

Flying a 773 over the Atlantic a few times a day may be harder to fill. Flying a 773 mostly empty for the GRU-GIG-GRU legs is VERY expensive. Then, traffic to BRazil is still somewhat seasonal and when a 773 is not full it is VERY expensive.


So all in all, AA opted for the flexibility in scheduling and the lower risk of flying a 772 vs a 773.

Now what they trully need to do is upgrade their 763s that fly MIA to Brazil - that is an awful ride. I'd love to see an all 772ER AA fleet or better yet an all 789 fleet - that would rock in flexibility and economics.

Thank you for this information. I did not know that the 777 used on the LHR route goes on to GRU.
 
baron95
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting JAM747 (Reply 9):
Thank you for this information. I did not know that the 777 used on the LHR route goes on to GRU.

You are welcome. AA is a master of aircraft utilization on the 777. They actually change the departure times of the GRU-JFK 777 as the daylight savings go into effect in the US and Brazil, so that the flight lands always just before 6AM at JFK, which is when customs opens up, so they can get that plane working over the atlantic as early as possible. Smart more, me thinks.
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N353SK
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:49 am

Also, does the 773 physically fit everywhere at ORD? I know the A340-600 is not generally welcomed at ORD due to its length.
 
qantas777
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:54 am

Baron 95,

Correction, DL is the master of 777 utilization. Avg 17hrs on the frame.
 
commavia
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:59 am

AA could probably use the larger 777-300 capacity on some routes, but not year round, and definitely not enough to justify an entirely new fleet with new systems, new requirements, and new engines. The 777-200IGWs do just fine in their present role as AA's longhaul flagship, and while the planes may be packed in many markets, that's just how AA wants it. Any airline would rather have 100% load factors on a 250-seat plane versus 70% load factors on a 350-seat plane.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:32 pm

Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
isnt teh A300 the biggest jet (due the seats) in the AA fleet?

No.

Just because they have it fitted as a high density aircraft doesn't mean it's bigger.

The 772ER is AA's largest aircraft in size, in MTOW, and if they were to fit it as a 2 class plane, it would hold the most pax.
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MEACEDAR
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:37 pm

How about getting some A330s or maybe the A340s instead of 777s. Just a suggestion. I think AA's livery would look good on an A330/340. What do you guys think?
 
jacobin777
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting N353SK (Reply 11):
Also, does the 773 physically fit everywhere at ORD? I know the A340-600 is not generally welcomed at ORD due to its length.

It shouldn't have too much of a problem...

ORD has been accepting more A346's lately....ORD gets the occasional IB A346 and now there is scheduled LH A346...
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fxramper
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:40 pm

LHR NRT and GIG.

I don't think this would warrant any order for the 773.

 twocents 
 
Avianca
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 15):
How about getting some A330s or maybe the A340s instead of 777s. Just a suggestion. I think AA's livery would look good on an A330/340. What do you guys think?

very good idea, but will never happen....
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QFSYD744
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:44 pm

Prime candidates for the 777-300:

JFK-GRU
JFK-LHR

LAX-JFK
LAX-LHR
LAX-NRT
LAX-ORD

MIA-EZE
MIA-GRU
MIA-LHR

ORD-DEL
ORD-LHR
ORD-NRT
ORD-PVG

Will they order them, probably not..
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MGASJO
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:11 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 14):
Quoting Avianca (Reply 3):
isnt teh A300 the biggest jet (due the seats) in the AA fleet?

No.

Just because they have it fitted as a high density aircraft doesn't mean it's bigger.

The 772ER is AA's largest aircraft in size, in MTOW, and if they were to fit it as a 2 class plane, it would hold the most pax.

I guess what Avianca was asking if the A300 is the one that carries the most passengers, and yes, it is. Total seats in the A300 is 266/267, vs 247 seats in the T7.
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American777
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:26 pm

AA could consider purchasing these beauties for future fleet modernization to use them on high capacity international routes like LHR. I hope they purchase some 773ER's soon, and I bet this is the next airplane they'll buy because AA doesn't want to purchase any 4-Engined aircraft again. But the 787 can also be the candidate for future fleet modernization.


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[Edited 2006-10-13 06:31:44]
 
Mason
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 1:46 pm

The question of if they could use them: yes. Will they? No. As has been mentioned, there is no way to get an RR powered 773. Sure flights are full, and would still be full with a 773, but AA is better off sticking with the -200. For the same reason, I doubt UA will ever order 773s (or DL, for that matter). CO--maybe, for EWR-HKG/NRT/PEK.
 
andrewtang
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting Mason (Reply 22):
As has been mentioned, there is no way to get an RR powered 773.

That is only if they order B777-300ER. If they were to order B777-300A, RR is always an option.
 
AirSpare
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:12 pm

[quote=Baron95,reply=5/quote]

Thanks for the insightful reply. I tend to disagree just maybe 3%. I have been flying to Brazil pretty regularly since 1996 from MIA, and even when Varig was flying, all flights were usually packed. I do miss the Varig flight to REC the most (I terminate now in NAT). TAM is taking up a lot of slack, but for the past 3 years all AA/JJ codeshare flights are packed. This route must be a cash cow for both carriers.

It is a seasonal route, though maybe it is becoming less so as time goes on (from personal observation, no facts to back that up). The last time I booked a MIA-NAT flight during Holidays, the price was over 3 grand. I just flew it again, the "cheapest ticket" was 1,600. (The least I ever paid was just after 9/11 on an empty flight for USD 407, no restrictions).
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting QFSYD744 (Reply 19):
Prime candidates for the 777-300:

JFK-GRU
JFK-LHR

LAX-JFK

I don't think you'd ever see AA use such a large a/c on LAX-JFK. The premium traffic on that route is part of AA's bread and butter. They go for frequency over individual capacity on each flight. As it is they exclusively use 762's on the route currently.
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jfk777
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:07 pm

STT757,

Under what theory does "AA have too many 777's" ? That's an ignorant statement. AA needs more 777 to expand to Asia and the ultra haul routes.
 
Rj111
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:13 pm

AA considered the 773A back in 2000ish for JFK-LHR but ultimately rejeceted it. Citing flexibility as an issue.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 2):
TO Sao Paulo, they may need to operate more flights with 772ER and not 767's. That would provide more seats in total. Miami to GRU is now 4 flights daily

This is seasonal and not 4 daily but 3 daily + 5 weekly (26 flights/week) ! GRU-MIA is a 18 weekly flights route. But you could introduce a GRU-MIA 772 on the 2nd flight or the 773 replacing the 772 as well as on GIG-MIA, they could use a 772 year-round.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 5):
AA Flight 951 (B 772) that does JFK-GRU-GIG for example, starts out of LHR, flies over the atlantic, lands in the evening gets turned around to GRU the same night, flies a mostly empty short hop (200 miles) to GIG, rests for a few hours, flies a mostly empty short hop to GRU, then flies to JFK, lands at 6AM, gets turned around the same morning and flies to LHR, and repeats.

Baron, the leg GIG-GRU takes 70 to 190 pax every day including some F and many C. Remember that AA keep 763 parked all the day and could use one 763 instead of 772. The use of the 772 is a clear indication that their target is First Class and not only a way to connect GIG to DFW and JFK.
At AA website, it shows today 2F 15C and 124Y booked on GIG-GRU leg.

Felipe
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SJUSXM
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:00 am

of course AA needs the 773

so they can send it to SXM!!
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baron95
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 28):
Baron, the leg GIG-GRU takes 70 to 190 pax every day including some F and many C. Remember that AA keep 763 parked all the day and could use one 763 instead of 772. The use of the 772 is a clear indication that their target is First Class and not only a way to connect GIG to DFW and JFK.
At AA website, it shows today 2F 15C and 124Y booked on GIG-GRU leg.

Hi Felipe. I didn't quite understand your comment. Are you implying that AA is selling GIG-GRU F and C tickets on their own right rather than simply feed the GRU hub for connection. I don't even think AA is allowed to sell those tickets.

I have to say that I have flown dozens of times GRU-GIG-GRU on AA 951/950 and the RIO-SP segment is very, very empty, even in C(J) and F. I can guarantee you that flying a 772 (let alone a 773) on 200 nm run with 70-190 passangers is a money loser on the segment. It obviously pay to feed the hub. I was simply pointing out that they better make sure they fill that 773 consistently to offset the SP-RIO money losing segments.

[Edited 2006-10-16 00:13:12]
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AA777223
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 7):
AA has more 777-200ERs than they need (IMO), adding 777-300ERs is not helpful.

You must be kidding! That is painfully innaccurate. AA has put their best minds to work at managing to spread those 45 aircraft across their network. I think they cannot wait to get their 46th back from Boeing. WHen will they receive their 47th, that they confirmed earlier this year? They use those 777s almost all day everyday. It makes me wonder how they cover for maintenance and dispatch problems. Everytime I go out to DFW and see a 777 or two over in the AA hanger I know they are rushing to get it back in service. My favorite plane and livery in the skies (hence my user name).
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spartanmjf
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:44 am

Quoting MEACEDAR (Reply 15):
How about getting some A330s or maybe the A340s instead of 777s. Just a suggestion. I think AA's livery would look good on an A330/340. What do you guys think?

About as likely as LH buying 737NG, 777, etc.....
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LipeGIG
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:34 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 30):
Hi Felipe. I didn't quite understand your comment. Are you implying that AA is selling GIG-GRU F and C tickets on their own right rather than simply feed the GRU hub for connection. I don't even think AA is allowed to sell those tickets.

Probably i'm not so clear. I'm telling that GIG-GRU leg is a way to AA sell GIG-JFK and GIG-DFW. As you know, AA couldn't sell GIG-GRU.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 30):
I have to say that I have flown dozens of times GRU-GIG-GRU on AA 951/950 and the RIO-SP segment is very, very empty, even in C(J) and F. I can guarantee you that flying a 772 (let alone a 773) on 200 nm run with 70-190 passangers is a money loser on the segment. It obviously pay to feed the hub. I was simply pointing out that they better make sure they fill that 773 consistently to offset the SP-RIO money losing segments.

I get your point and agree with you. Better to AA to run a GIG-JFK and GRU-JFK, using Tam as a provider for GIG-GRU on DFW flight.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
donzilasse
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:13 am

First AA will need to get rid of the awful 767,s they operate GRU and GIG with. If they would be replaced with 772,s the flights would be both more pleasant for the travelers as well as bringing additional capacity to these routes. After the fall of Varig these flights have a heavy load factor all year round so the additional capacity could be utilized by AA.
 
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STT757
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RE: Could AA Use A 777-300 On Any Routes?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 26):



Quoting Jfk777 (Reply 26):
Under what theory does "AA have too many 777's" ? That's an ignorant statement. AA needs more 777 to expand to Asia and the ultra haul routes.

AA has recently dropped SJC_NRT, DFW-KIX, ORD-Nagoya, they let Boeing use one of their 777s for testing.

That's alot of 777s looking for a route, they all can't fly Miami-Buenos Aires.
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