Halibut
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Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:27 pm

Airbus's multi Government set-up , now set-up to spread the misery equally .

Is Airbus's attempt of being fair in this crisis situation there best move or is there Multi-Governemnt set up simply making things way too complicated to remedy there dire situation efficiently & timely ???


Hhhmmm scratchchin 

Halibut

http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...oc=HealthNewsHome_R3_reutersEdge-1

Government influence comes back to haunt Airbus

By Noah Barkin

BERLIN (Reuters) - The European governments that created Airbus and funded ambitious jet programs that allowed it to soar past U.S. rival Boeing, are now hindering the firm's efforts to get over the worst crisis in its history.

It was Streiff's attempt to break down these structures and introduce cost cuts without regard to political sensitivities, that alienated his managers within EADS and the German government, ultimately making his position untenable.


"The organization and governance of EADS have as major objectives the preservation of a delicate balance between men, power and positions," Streiff told French daily Le Figaro on Tuesday. "This formula can work in normal times, but it is not appropriate for a firm that is going through a serious crisis."



http://today.reuters.com/news/articl...ORT-EADS-CUTS.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna

Airbus says cost cuts to be spread equally
Wed Oct 11, 2006 2:58pm ET

FRANKFURT, Oct 11 (Reuters) - The head of troubled planemaker Airbus said cost cuts to be made partly as a result of delays to its A380 superjumbo would be spread equally between all four countries affected.

"I don't believe that one can demand, for example, that the Germans pay for the French or vice versa. One must find a good balance," Louis Gallois told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung in an interview due to be published on Thursday.
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co7772wuh
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:53 pm

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
efficiently & timely

Judging by the last 4 months , no !
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:27 pm

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
Airbus said cost cuts to be made partly as a result of delays to its A380 superjumbo would be spread equally between all four countries affected

If the fourth country is the UK, I'm not sure I believe this. With BAe selling out of EADS, what protection do they have? Germany, France and Spain all have direct government involvement, while the UK does not. I think some countries will prove more equal than others.
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 2):
If the fourth country is the UK, I'm not sure I believe this. With BAe selling out of EADS, what protection do they have? Germany, France and Spain all have direct government involvement, while the UK does not. I think some countries will prove more equal than others.

In all fairness to EADS/Airbus, the only direct government ownership is that of the French. Officially the government's of Germany, Spain and the UK do not directly control shares of EADS. That being said, Germany and Spain are mulling buying some control. Socialism is not the answer for whats ailing Airbus, IMHO.
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hb88
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 2):
Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
"Airbus said cost cuts to be made partly as a result of delays to its A380 superjumbo would be spread equally between all four countries affected"

If the fourth country is the UK, I'm not sure I believe this. With BAe selling out of EADS, what protection do they have? Germany, France and Spain all have direct government involvement, while the UK does not. I think some countries will prove more equal than others.

This concerns me too. The UK has vastly different employment laws with virtually no protection in the manner of DE/FR/ES. Given that the A380 contribution from the UK has been on track, it would seem extremely tough for the UK to be hit - and I suspect it will given that it is such a soft target for headcount reduction.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 3):
n all fairness to EADS/Airbus, the only direct government ownership is that of the French. Officially the government's of Germany, Spain and the UK do not directly control shares of EADS. That being said, Germany and Spain are mulling buying some control. Socialism is not the answer for whats ailing Airbus, IMHO.

That's not true. SEPI (5% of EADS) is a Spanish state organization.
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NAV20
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 4):
I suspect it will given that it is such a soft target for headcount reduction.

Fingers crossed for you guys, Hb88. But as I understand it, not only does the British end make most, if not all, of the wings; it designs them as well?

Wings are pretty fundamental to an aeroplane; and their design makes or breaks the performance of any new model. Seems to me that Airbus could easily switch assembly of the various models around Europe; but switching the most skilled area, wing design/construction, would be much more difficult?

In any case the attitude of the pollies surpasses understanding. They seem to think that just by using public money to buy some shares, they can magically transform the company's commercial prospects. The future of Airbus will eventually be decided by the marketplace, not by a few pollies sitting in a boardroom arguing the toss about who does what where.
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 5):
That's not true. SEPI (5% of EADS) is a Spanish state organization.

My apologies. I've read otherwise. The "ownership" of EADS can be a bit confusing. But doesn't that provide even more ammunition to those of us advocating less government control of EADS?
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Ken777
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:10 am

Solving this problem is going to be more difficult than delivering the 380.

The simple fact is that the governments invested in Airbus (in one manner or another) in order to develop well paying jobs in their countries. The approach worked well enough for Airbus to pass Boeing and these same governments are not going to be pleased to hear about job cuts.

Add unions to the equation. They are going to be right in the middle of it and are not going to give up well paying jobs for their either, especially when the problems around the 380 and various versions of the 350 were caused by management decisions. Airbus may well need to factor in a string of strikes when calculating delivery slots for the 380.

Rough times ahead for Airbus and I'm now doubting that they will be able to achieve the reorganization they want. Best bet is that there can be some much needed management reorganization, but very little cuts in non-management employment levels.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 2):
If the fourth country is the UK, I'm not sure I believe this. With BAe selling out of EADS, what protection do they have? Germany, France and Spain all have direct government involvement, while the UK does not. I think some countries will prove more equal than others.

One of the other threads on Airbus' possible re-organization noted that some UK MPs are calling for the government to help protect Airbus-related jobs in the UK.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:16 am

Well, government involvement in anything is always a good and a bad. Just like anything else. Sometimes a lack of government involvement can also be a bad thing.
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hb88
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 4):
"I suspect it will given that it is such a soft target for headcount reduction."

Fingers crossed for you guys, Hb88. But as I understand it, not only does the British end make most, if not all, of the wings; it designs them as well?

Yes, you're correct. The UK does most of the flight physics in terms of wing design etc with the wing boxes being built in Broughton (the high-lift devices are physically made in germany).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 4):Wings are pretty fundamental to an aeroplane; and their design makes or breaks the performance of any new model. Seems to me that Airbus could easily switch assembly of the various models around Europe; but switching the most skilled area, wing design/construction, would be much more difficult?

Yep, without the wings, the product is a high-speed bus. I think it would be very difficult to relocate this capability given the specific skill set involved. The UK also does fuel systems and landing gear (and integration) - possibly more portable. However, despite the impression you might get from reading a.net its very difficult to physically move resources around as some people propose. It is easier where there are duplicate manufacturing capabilities (ie FAL activities), but additionally the R&D activity is often tied to the geographical manufacturing location. As usual the true picture is more complicated than people might suppose (but, I hasten to add, not adversely so - historically, the distribution and location of the manufacturing has never been a particular problem in the past - or even now for that matter in the context of the actual wiring harness problem itself).
 
Halibut
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 5:13 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 3):
Socialism is not the answer for whats ailing Airbus, IMHO.

Sal,
It looks as though Airbus may have even more political intervention !

Halibut

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...German+premiers+lay+out+their.html

DATE:13/10/06
SOURCE:Flightglobal.com
UK finally quits Airbus as French and German premiers lay out their positions
By Kieran Daly

Speaking during a media briefing following the meeting, Chirac said: “There has been a crisis and a problem, that’s true, which is more of a problem of organisation than a problem of competence. This organisational problem has been regulated.”

Chirac and Merkel stressed their ongoing confidence in the manufacturer and complimented parent firm EADS’ quick response to the difficulties. Merkel adds that the two countries have shown their backing for a speedy resolution, which will enable Airbus to re-focus on its future.

Merkel says German firm Daimler Chrysler, which owns 22.5% of EADS, intends to continue with strategic responsibilities towards EADS. But she adds that Germany is looking at all options to maintain an equal weight in the shareholder structure between Germany and France.

She says: “If there were to be a share transfer, I have said clearly to the French president that, for us, it is essential that we find shareholders which feel fully responsible for EADS and Airbus. To avoid any ambiguity, no decision has been taken.

“Moreover, we cannot get involved in some processes, even in the name of the Federal Government. There is a close co-operation between the ministries for economy and finance and the Chancellery, which will result in decisions concerning the German involvement in Airbus remaining current, as in the past.”
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deltadawg
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:08 am

Come on Spain, come on Germany, come on even Italy, buy all of Airbus and see what happens! Governments do not belong in business! If Airbus want to survive and prosper then make the cuts where the most inefficiencies lie and keep government ownership and involvement out of the company.

The employees of Airbus should try to put together a private ownership group to buy the controlling interest, if they want to keep there jobs for a long time to come.

The future of Airbus is in question all because of a grandiose desire by politicians to have the biggest, best jet on the block instead of designing what is needed for airlines and company profitability. This is not to say that there is not a need or desire for the 380 just that the program has put the future of Airbus in jeopardy.

Does this mean that if Airbus were to fail that Boeing would be by itself inthe commercial market - NO. Companies like Lockheed could & would step up to produce competitive products. In fact I believe if Airbus were to fail it would be Embraer that would pose the biggest threat to Boeing.

Just keep politicians, governments, egos and political correctness out of the business of Airbus - it's what is best for Airbus and the industry as a whole.

Just my $.02
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Halibut
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 13):
Just keep politicians, governments, egos and political correctness out of the business of Airbus - it's what is best for Airbus and the industry as a whole.

Agreed DeltaDAWG,
But do you think you could get this passed Chirac ?

 no 

Halibut
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 2):
Germany, France and Spain all have direct government involvement, while the UK does not. I think some countries will prove more equal than others.

Over the last few years the German government has been pulling out of commercial enterprises. Germany at the moment does NOT own any Airbus shares, unlike France, Spain and Russia.
Since it now looks that for political reasons the cuts are planned to be carried out in Germany as not to offend French and Spanish voters, the German government and the state of Hamburg (which has invested several million Euros in infrastructure to build the Hamburg maintenance facility and will have to pay for the unemployed in case of closure) are considering to buy the packet of shares currently owned by Daimler-Chrysler so that they can take part in the decision about which places will have to be closed. Airbus needs an overhaul, but not on the expenses of Germany.

Jan
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gmcc
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:16 am

Quoting DeltaDAWG (Reply 13):
just that the program has put the future of Airbus in jeopardy.

As did the 707, 747 and possible the 787 for Boeing, I think human beings tend to want to make things bigger, better and faster than what already exists regardless of if government is involved or not. The 707 and 747 paid off for Boeing. The A380 and 787 may or may not pay off for Airbus and Boeing.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:34 am

Quoting Halibut (Thread starter):
is there Multi-Governemnt set up simply making things way too complicated to remedy there dire situation efficiently & timely



Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 3):
Socialism is not the answer for whats ailing Airbus, IMHO

Don´t fool yourself. Airline industry has always been highly political. e.g. 45% of Boeing income is US tax money, big recent 777/787 (AC, AI, EK) deals are financed by the US government & hundreds of strong lines go between Boeing & the US government. And no, EADS doesn´t come close.

Prove? google "Ex-Im Bank", "Darpa", "NASA", "Patty Murray"
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TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:09 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
Don´t fool yourself. Airline industry has always been highly political. e.g. 45% of Boeing income is US tax money, big recent 777/787 (AC, AI, EK) deals are financed by the US government & hundreds of strong lines go between Boeing & the US government. And no, EADS doesn´t come close.

I see capitalism at work here, Keesje, not socialism. The fact that the US Goverment works with a business (Boeing as example) does not imply control over that business. The government can provide incentives by virtue of the vast sums of money involved, but in the end they cannot prevent Boeing from making independent business decisions. For example, Boeing can and does layoff workers pretty much at will (there are union concerns, of course) and does not need Patty Murray's permission to do so.
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Halibut
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
Don´t fool yourself.

 boggled 

Tell that to Forgeard !  sarcastic 

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
Airline industry has always been highly political

Yah ,
No $h*t ! However , you do not see the political intervention & decision making by Politicians in the US commercial aviation sector that takes place in Europe . The making of the A380 , was made by Politcians not by legitimate Aviation's executive/CEOs !

Halibut
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spartanmjf
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:20 am

From US President Ronald Reagan: "The ten most frightening words in the English language are 'Hello, I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Perhaps EADS should take a lesson from the Gipper.....
"Nuts to the man in 21D!"
 
mham001
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
Don´t fool yourself. Airline industry has always been highly political. e.g. 45% of Boeing income is US tax money,

Actually, don't let Keesje fool you. That 45% of Boeing income is defense realated, little or nothing to do with the airline industry.
 
commavia
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:26 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
Don´t fool yourself. Airline industry has always been highly political. e.g. 45% of Boeing income is US tax money, big recent 777/787 (AC, AI, EK) deals are financed by the US government & hundreds of strong lines go between Boeing & the US government. And no, EADS doesn´t come close.

This is the same ridiculous argument people put up all the time to defend Airbus' government subsidies. The reason that this argument falls flat, of course, is that comparing U.S. government contracts with Boeing to European government subsidies to Airbus is a critical difference.

When the U.S. government gives billions each year to Boeing, they get something in return. They get fighter jets, satellites, communication systems, rockets, etc. When France, Germany, et al give billions of dollars of "research and development" aid to Airbus, they get nothing in return except pissed off and disaffected taxpayers and poorly-concieved projects like the A380.

Also critical to this entire debate is a key point that needs to be made -- Airbus must be seperated from EADS. If European governments want to sink billions into researching new military technology -- a bit laughable given the general state of many of Europe's militaries -- I don't think anyone in the U.S. or anywhere else would say a word about it. However, giving billions upon billions of dollars to a commercial aircraft manufacturer and getting no tangible assets delivered to the government (and thus the taxpayers) in return is a completely different story.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
google

What does the federal government have to do with Google?

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
Darpa

DARPA is a federal government agency, not a company, and again, the U.S. government doesn't just sink money into DARPA and get nothing back. They spend billions developing tangible systems, weapons and technology. And, furthermore, military does not equal commercial. Governments are expected to subsidize and invest in their homegrown military technology industries as a matter of national defense.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
NASA

NASA is a federal government agency, not a company.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:34 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
What does the federal government have to do with Google?

I think Keesje was using "Google" as a verb.
Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
This is the same ridiculous argument people put up all the time to defend Airbus' government subsidies. The reason that this argument falls flat, of course, is that comparing U.S. government contracts with Boeing to European government subsidies to Airbus is a critical difference.

 thumbsup 

Not to mention when this argument is made, there is never any mention about the A400M program for OCCAR or the A330T tanker program for the UK, amongst others, as if this is something unique to Boeing and the US DoD.

And since Airbus has as much access to NASA research as Boeing does, one could go so far as to say such research benefits Airbus more, as the cost to provide it was funded, in part, by Boeing taxes.
 
commavia
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 23):
I think Keesje was using "Google" as a verb.

Indeed. My mistake Keesje.
 
Aither
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:23 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
When the U.S. government gives billions each year to Boeing, they get something in return. They get fighter jets, satellites, communication systems, rockets, etc.

And many times overpriced from what i've heard.
Boeing gets profits from these deals. EADS is not allowed to compete in the US while Boeing get many defence contracts in Europe.

Not even mentioning illegal export tax breaks.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
When France, Germany, et al give billions of dollars of "research and development" aid to Airbus, they get nothing in return except pissed off and disaffected taxpayers and poorly-concieved projects like the A380.

Actually, Airbus has more than reimbursed the taxpayers loans...
and the fact that taxpayers are supporting our Aeronautic abilities, innovation and in the end the employment of these same taxpayers is not what i would call "nothing in return".
Never trust the obvious
 
kanebear
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):
And many times overpriced from what i've heard.
Boeing gets profits from these deals. EADS is not allowed to compete in the US while Boeing get many defence contracts in Europe.

I suppose this isn't the same EADS then?? If EADS isn't allowed to compete here, why do they have a North American division???

The irony is profound. Someone from one of the most nationalistic, anti-competitive, socialist countries in the world is pointing at the US and crying foul. Please provide evidence as to the launch aid being repaid.

Europe's defence sector will never be competitive until the EU member countries can drop the nationalistic rah rah and develop true economies of scale. Never happen. Each country LOVES the idea of the EU, with itself at the head....

[Edited 2006-10-14 03:09:00]
 
osiris30
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:53 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):
Boeing gets profits from these deals. EADS is not allowed to compete in the US while Boeing get many defence contracts in Europe.

Right like Airbus isn't in the running (perhaps even favored) for the tanker deal... EADS hasn't had competitive products to offer vs. the products available from the US, it's that simple. When you've got the best stuff to sell, it tends to sell well (787 vs. A330 for example). And seeing as Boeing is a BUSINESS and not a non-profit I would hope they make money on those projects.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
osiris30
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:24 am

Aither:

Well let's see.. you got a bomber better than the B2.. how about the B1, or the prehistoric B-52?

Got something better than a Raptor to sell in the fighter category? How about realiable launch vehicles?

EADS is competing for the tanker contract because that's the only area they offer a competitive product. You can bury your head in the sand or carry on like a child, it doesn't change anything.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
CHIFLYGUY
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:28 am

The US DOD has in fact bought increasing amounts from European suppliers of late, including a contract for the Marine One helicopter replacement and a large recent Eurocopter award from the US Army. I would expect the US military to continue to be more open to foreign suppliers for non-strategic goods - unless Europe makes a major blunder such as denying landing rights to US planes or something in a fit of pique over policy (similar to what they did to Israel), which would only serve to convince Congress that Europe is not a reliable supplier.

EADS gets military contracts just like Boeing does (e.g., A400M). In fact, EADS/Airbus gets every type of subsidy Boeing does + launch aid on top of it. Both the US and Europe use diplomatic means to attempt to leverage product sales.

NASA research is public domain. IIRC, Airbus obtained fly-by-wire technology from NASA originally.
 
Halibut
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:56 am

Problem with many socialist countries is the fact that they are too anti-business ! Giving too many rights to the worker makes the company/corp weak & less competitive in the world economy . Yah , it's great for the few workers that are employed . However , with a weaker , more vulnerable company jeopardizes the company & all the workers in the end !

Halibut

http://www.nationalreview.com/kudlow/kudlow200603251037.asp


March 25, 2006, 10:37 a.m.
Paddle the French Fanny
They sure need it.

In France, you see, companies don¡¯t grow because it¡¯s too costly to hire while it¡¯s against the law to fire. Hence, since they rarely add jobs, French businesses under-perform, under-produce, and under-employ. Think of it: It¡¯s awfully tough to increase output without a growing workforce to produce it.

Indeed, at the heart of the French problem is a statist-run socialist economy that is massively overtaxed and overregulated. France’s public government sector, for instance, accounts for more than 50 percent of GDP. In other words, private business in France is in the minority.
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ha763
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):
EADS is not allowed to compete in the US while Boeing get many defence contracts in Europe.



Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 32):
Eurocopter award from the US Army.

And Eurocopter is an EADS company. In addition, Eurocopter was selected by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to provide the U.S. Customs and Border Protection with 10 EC120s.
 
TeamAmerica
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):
And many times overpriced from what i've heard.

Everybody seems to think this, and yet nobody offers a better deal. Virtually all Defense contracts require bids from multiple vendors and an extended vetting process. There are abuses, but far less than people, and you, think.

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):
EADS is not allowed to compete in the US while Boeing get many defence contracts in Europe.

As Kanebear pointed out above, the idea that EADS doesn't compete is nonsense. Lets take a look and major EADS products and how they fit US needs:
  • USAF tanker replacement - A330 is in the bidding.
  • Eurocopter - we've bought a bunch.
  • A400M - we have the C-17, so no thanks.
  • Ariane? We have Atlas 5 and Delta IV; but of course there are plenty of US satellites lauched on Ariane...
  • Eurofighter? Well, the name pretty much tells the tale of a fighter tailored to European needs.

    So...in what way is EADS not allowed to compete? You statement has no merit.  no 
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:42 am

Quoting CHIFLYGUY (Reply 32):
The US DOD has in fact bought increasing amounts from European suppliers of late, including a contract for the Marine One helicopter replacement

I thought Lockheed got the award for the Marine One replacement?

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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36):
I thought Lockheed got the award for the Marine One replacement?

That's the VH-71. Lockheed got the prime contract; However, the airframe is sourced from AgustaWestland, which builds it as th EH101 Merlin. I think Lockheed still has the highest portion of the contract by value, as they are responsible for installing all of the various extra gear and making it all work together.
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 17):
Don´t fool yourself. Airline industry has always been highly political.

Perhaps. But only at Airbus do we see Chancellors and Presidents of sponsoring countries on the podium when a new product is rolled out.
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting Halibut (Reply 12):
Chirac said: “There has been a crisis and a problem,

Oh, well, a crisis AND a problem! If only it were just a crisis. Or only a problem! Alas, NO! It is a crisis and a problem!
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 35):
Eurofighter? Well, the name pretty much tells the tale of a fighter tailored to European needs.

 blush 

I doubt very much a US jet fighter pilot would be so willing to tell others he flys the Eurofighter .

Halibut
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:36 pm

Quoting Halibut (Reply 40):
I doubt very much a US jet fighter pilot would be so willing to tell others he flys the Eurofighter .

Forget the name.. that's the least of that POS's troubles  Wink
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:47 pm

Confirmation that the German Government will in fact buy into EADS. It looks as if the format will be that it buys one-third of Daimlerr-Chrysler's current stake; which would otherwise have been sold on the open market.

"Frau Merkel admitted that her government was looking at buying a stake in EADS. The Germans would join the French Government, which holds 15 per cent, the Spanish, with 5 per cent, and the Russians, also with 5 per cent, as shareholders.

"The stake would probably be bought from DaimlerChrysler, the carmaker that holds a 22.5 per cent stake but wants to cut that to 15 per cent."


The British Government, fearful of job losses in the UK, looks like securing some Board representation as well:-

"The Department of Trade and Industry (DTI) has wrung some concessions from EADS, including a British representative on the company’s board.

"The DTI confirmed yesterday that it had been sent a list of possible non-executive directors by EADS. From this selection, the DTI will come up with its own shortlist of candidates, and a decision on an appointment is expected within the next couple of weeks."


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2401680,00.html

EADS' Articles of Association require that the stake of the two main blocs - D/C and the French 'vehicle,' Sogeade) should remain equal (currently 22.5% each). Sogeade is two-thirds owned by the French Government and one-third owned by Lagardere, but Lagardere has indicated back in June that it wants eventually to sell out completely.

At present the two blocs appoint five directors each, and the Spanish Government appoints an eleventh one. Logically, the German Government will henceforward appoint two of the five directors currently appointed by D/C, and the British will also appoint one (presumably bringing the total to rwelve?).

I make it that, under that scenario, various governments will have the right to appoint eight out of twelve directors? Seems a funny way to run a company that is supposed to be a private-sector concern, of which the majority of shares are still held by the private sector?
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 4:09 pm

PS Just to add to the bubbling witches' cauldron of government manoeuvring, the Russians are still buying EADS shares and still talking about Board representation:-

"The political machinations surrounding EADS, the embattled parent company of Airbus, intensified yesterday as Russia increased its stake in the group and the German government indicated that it too was prepared to become a shareholder.

"Russia's state-owned bank Vneshtorgbank is understood to have increased its shareholding from 5 per cent to between 6 and 7 per cent as the Kremlin seeks to gain more influence over the Franco-German aerospace and defence giant. President Vladmir Putin has said he would like to gain a shareholding of about 10 per cent in EADS. Russia is pushing for board representation but has been rebuffed by the two co-chairmen of EADS as well as France's President, Jacques Chirac, and Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany."


http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article1870917.ece
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:55 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 22):
When France, Germany, et al give billions of dollars of "research and development" aid to Airbus, they get nothing in return except pissed off and disaffected taxpayers and poorly-concieved projects like the A380.

Sorry, thats one of stupid post. You only want to flame or there will come something with sense? Airbus always get a L O A N wich they have to pay back. Also such poorly conceived projects like the A,300,A320,A330, have brought so many Know how and Money and JOBS to Europe that most taxpayers (including me) would rather spend more money and allow more LOANS.
BTW : Why you think you can talk for all European Taxpayers?

I wont start discussing Boeing contracts and aids. Its not worth discussing it with such people wich are that biased.  

Off Topic: Did you know Boeing wanted to buy an poorly conceived plane like the A320 to motivate Boeing engineers in 1991?

Quoting Aither (Reply 29):
OK i see the US produce the best aircraft in the world and the US is a country totally open to foreign companies etc. blablablabla and anyway the french are communist... blablabla

yeah right

   Indeed like the ludicrous tanker program, to avoid a foreign product they rather wait for the 777KC or the 787KC.   

[Edited 2006-10-14 11:56:16]
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:52 pm

The Eurocopter deal & a few other are the 2 trees hiding the forest...

Quoting Halibut (Reply 33):
In France, you see, companies don¡¯t grow because it¡¯s too

They also don't grow because there is no such anti liberal law like the "Small business act". A little bit of research would show that Europe is often more liberal than the US. But the perception, the history, says otherwise.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 33):
French businesses under-perform, under-produce, and under-employ

And the main reason there is an anti french campaign in the US is because we piss off the US "high corporate decision making" world in so many key strategic sectors such as aerospace, water, energy, drugs, food, ... no other country in Europe concentrates so many leading companies in these key sectors.

Quoting Halibut (Reply 33):
Indeed, at the heart of the French problem is a statist-run socialist economy that is massively overtaxed and overregulated. France’s public government sector, for instance, accounts for more than 50 percent of GDP

If you want to create a business in France you can freely open it. We have anti trust laws, we have financial transparency laws, we have... you get the point !
Oh yes we are overtaxed and overregulated... as you are compared to China...
In addittion with these taxes many many things become less expensive such as education, hospitals, and we have incredible infrastructures you can't believe making the country even more competitive for businesses (eg : i am connected on A.net with a 30MB/s broadband access for less than 20 USD/month. I've heard in the US the same would be 5 times more expensive).

Back to the topic i want to say that government influence on Airbus piss off a lot of people in France too, but without this government influence, the different european aeronautics companies would have remained at the size of their respective country, and therefore would have never been able to compete with large US businesses. It's not like if we had the choice.

[Edited 2006-10-14 13:01:10]
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:37 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 36):

I thought Lockheed got the award for the Marine One replacement?

Lockheed may technically be the prime contractor, but the helicopter frames are coming from a unit of Finnmeccanica. It is similar to how EADS had teamed up with Northrup Grumman to bid on the USAF tankers. This is a small fleet, but an important one since it is the personal transport of the President of the United States.
 
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting Aither (Reply 45):

And the main reason there is an anti french campaign in the US is because we piss off the US "high corporate decision making" world in so many key strategic sectors such as aerospace, water, energy, drugs, food, ... no other country in Europe concentrates so many leading companies in these key sectors.

Engineering corporate champions through state orchestrated mergers and the like is living off the past. The question is, where are the new companies coming from? Few of those French global champions are going to generate significant new jobs in the future. That's one difference versus the US, where new, giant companies like Microsoft, Cisco, Google, etc. come along regularly. Emerging markets are the source of many new large companies as well, though virtually all of these are likewise the result of state intervention and politically connected individuals, which I don't consider a source of sustainable economics. Also, small business is the engine of job creation in places like the US anyway.

Look at where state intervention is the least and see France's toughest global competitors such as Carrefour, which has humbled Wal-Mart in some emerging markets. That's the model to emulate.
 
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:53 am

A shocking topic designed to incite hatred and promote ignorance and prejuidice, despite the efforts of the thread starter to ground it with some factual footing.

but is our good friend Halibut isn't it? Been away sweetie, of your own choosing?


 scratchchin 
 
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:28 am

You were saying Keesje? Big grin
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:51 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 45):
Back to the topic i want to say that government influence on Airbus piss off a lot of people in France too, but without this government influence, the different european aeronautics companies would have remained at the size of their respective country, and therefore would have never been able to compete with large US businesses. It's not like if we had the choice.

I disagree. Boeing was once a small company with many competitors. They achieved their size by making successful products and consolidation. This has always been possible in Europe as well. I would point to very large and very successful corporations such as ABB, Seimens, and Daimler-Chrysler...all have achieved success without undo government influence.

The political nature of aviation and consequent government involvement is exactly what has held back the industry in Europe. Natural consolidation driven by economics was interrupted. The rise of one or several "winners" amongst the numerous aircraft builders was actually hindered by governments unwilling to let there be any losers.
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RE: Airbus:Gov. Influence Comes Back To Haunt Airbus

Sun Oct 15, 2006 2:40 am

While I've grown up in a business environment (my father worked for a large company and I won a one man company) I'm not one that believes that only the private sector can make god decisions - or that all of private sector are great.

Look around. IBM invented the PC (DOS/Win versions at least) and couldn't make a profit from them. There are a lot of major computer companies that are no longer around. In the auto sector both GM & Ford are having major problems. And these are companies that don't have execs heading to jail!

In reality, private business can make just as many bad decisions as governments can, which is why we have Chapter 11 over here.

The main difference for me is that a business is there to make money, where a government (in part) is there to develop a healthy environment for the citizens - including an environment to generate decent paying jobs. With our love of profits we don't yell that much when a company moves a plant overseas, leaving people (who used to earn a decent wage) flipping hamburgers. The point we prefer to overlook is that these hamburger flippers now qualify for food stamps, Medicaid, etc. Basically a government subsidy to their employers that won't have to be repaid.

When looking at the Airbus situation in that light I don't get to bent out of shape when development loans are discussed, nor do I fear the government intervention. There will be just as many bad decisions as there are in the private sector and there will be some somewhat intelligent people working on those problems - just as there are in the private sector. The 380 isn't the Edsel - well, depending on how it competes sells over the next 10 years it might be . . .  duck 

Airbus has had some successful years, both in the market place and in meeting the various social goals. They are having problems right now (like GM & Ford) and will work through them, just like Boeing did.

I don't see an urgent need for Airbus ownership to be privatized. I do see a need to address the problems and anticipate they will be addressed with the culture goals maintained to a high degree.