RobertS975
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:34 pm

Why does there not appear to be any trans-border service from Tijuana (TIJ)? Either from US carriers (AA, CO, DL, US) or from Mexican carriers? Yeah, I know SAN is just 20 miles north across the border, but that border crossing can take hours! It would seem that there is a large enough population base south of the border to support direct flights to various US hub airpoprts.
 
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OzarkD9S
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:00 am

Maybe a few UAEx flights to LAX for connections would work, but I can't see much else.
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Coronado990
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 1:06 am

I agree!!! And with SAN getting to the point of saturation, TIJ needs to handle it's own O & D.

You would think at least there would be service from TIJ on UA/UAX to LAX and SFO. And, at the very least, you'd think that there would be US service to the PHX and LAS hubs. CO to IAH seems likely as I have heard them throw TIJ around and lastly, I sure would like to see a AA MD-80 in there from DFW!!!
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Bicoastal
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:04 am

It would be a more attractive proposition if they could clear US immigration and customs in Mexico as flights to the USA do from Canadian cities.
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SLCUT2777
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Thread starter):
Why does there not appear to be any trans-border service from Tijuana (TIJ)? Either from US carriers (AA, CO, DL, US) or from Mexican carriers? Yeah, I know SAN is just 20 miles north across the border, but that border crossing can take hours! It would seem that there is a large enough population base south of the border to support direct flights to various US hub airpoprts.

Even though SEA-TAC is further away from YVR, than SAN is from TIJ, YVR has a HUGE trans-border operation from all main US carriers. Enough so that US Customs has a pre-clearence setup (although Canada should set part of their Customs lines at YVR for From USA Flights Only--not fun to stand in line after a few Asian carriers come in at the same time with a few large wide-bodies--takes forever in line!). TIJ has enough people that it would be nice for those from the US that come in to do business to not have to deal with SAN and then the San Ysidro crossing.

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 2):
I agree!!! And with SAN getting to the point of saturation, TIJ needs to handle it's own O & D.

You would think at least there would be service from TIJ on UA/UAX to LAX and SFO. And, at the very least, you'd think that there would be US service to the PHX and LAS hubs. CO to IAH seems likely as I have heard them throw TIJ around and lastly, I sure would like to see a AA MD-80 in there from DFW!!!

Throw into that a DL Connection flight form SLC!
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fewsolarge
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:30 am

I'd say its time is coming. All it takes is one pioneer, then it will become de rigeur for everyone with a western hub.
 
PanAm747
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:43 am

TIJ airport, while an international facility, handles mostly traffic to the interior of Mexico for people who can afford to fly.

A very large number of southern Californians, especially in San Diego county, will use TIJ as an alternative to SAN with its limited number of flights to Mexico. After crossing the border, it is a $10 cab ride (or at least it used to be - it is a guaranteed fare, however) to the airport.

Traffic in the other direction, however, is non-existent. There is virtually no market for TIJ-LAX or TIJ-other locations. The hassles of the international traffic (especially for a commuter airline) outweigh any potential revenue.
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Coronado990
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
A very large number of southern Californians, especially in San Diego county, will use TIJ as an alternative to SAN with its limited number of flights to Mexico

Limited is right! I cannot think of only one common non-stop destination that SAN and TIJ share and that is PVR which is only 2xweek on AM from TIJ and only once a week on US from SAN. Even the SAN-MEX non-stop operates in spurts and only 2xweek when it does. We are kinda of forced into using TIJ as an "alternative" or go up to LAX.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 6):
There is virtually no market for TIJ-LAX or TIJ-other locations.

Go to the Lindbergh parking lot and count the BC license plates and then we'll talk.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
SJCRRPAX
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Thread starter):
Why does there not appear to be any trans-border service from Tijuana (TIJ)? Either from US carriers (AA, CO, DL, US) or from Mexican carriers? Yeah, I know SAN is just 20 miles north across the border, but that border crossing can take hours! It would seem that there is a large enough population base south of the border to support direct flights to various US hub airpoprts.

I suspect there is not much demand. Americans want to go to the resort cities, so why would they stop at TIJ when non-stop flights to Cancun are available? I have never done a survey, but of the Mexicans I have met living in the U.S., most of them came from Mexico City, Guadalara, or smaller cities much further south. TIJ may have grown to a large city now due in part to the new manufacturing plants there but in the past it was my impression that it was a border town that Americans drove through, and Mexicans stayed there until they could cross the border --- nobody really wanted to stay there. But times change and maybe my impression is out of date.
 
PanAm747
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 2:34 am

Quote:
Go to the Lindbergh parking lot and count the BC license plates and then we'll talk.

Very true. But for Mexicans who can afford to fly in the U.S. domestically, it just makes better sense to cross the border and park at SAN (TIJ doesn't have much parking anyway!!) and fly domestically rather than do an international flight from TIJ.

Domestically speaking, SAN offers more choices to more places than TIJ could ever hope to capture with an international flight to a U.S. hub.

SAN handles American hub flights, and TIJ handles Mexico flights.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
RobertS975
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 8):
I suspect there is not much demand. Americans want to go to the resort cities, so why would they stop at TIJ when non-stop flights to Cancun are available? I have never done a survey, but of the Mexicans I have met living in the U.S., most of them came from Mexico City, Guadalara, or smaller cities much further south. TIJ may have grown to a large city now due in part to the new manufacturing plants there but in the past it was my impression that it was a border town that Americans drove through, and Mexicans stayed there until they could cross the border --- nobody really wanted to stay there. But times change and maybe my impression is out of date.

There are many flights to non-resort destinations from DL out of ATL, AA out of DFW and CO out of IAH. One would think that service to TIJ, even if a CRJ or ERJ, would find traffic to support itself.

Quoting PanAm747 (Reply 9):
Very true. But for Mexicans who can afford to fly in the U.S. domestically, it just makes better sense to cross the border and park at SAN (TIJ doesn't have much parking anyway!!) and fly domestically rather than do an international flight from TIJ.

Domestically speaking, SAN offers more choices to more places than TIJ could ever hope to capture with an international flight to a U.S. hub.

First of all, it can take hours to cross the boredr to get to SAN. SAN is not exactly close to the border anyway, a good 20+ miles north. Traffic THROUGH the city of San Diego can be terrible as well. Flights from TIJ to major hubs like SLC, DFW, PHX or IAH could easily get that TIJ originating passenger to any point in the US or even the rest of the world with good connections. If you have ever tried to cross the border into the USA at San Ysidro, the vehicle wait is a minimum of an hour and can be much worse.

The point of my original post is that there is a big hole here, the fact that there is no trans-border service whatsoever from TIJ.
 
SJCRRPAX
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 3:54 am

RobertS975,

I will admit up front that it has been years since I have been to TJ, so this maybe incorrect now (Maybe Coronado990 hangs out at the bars in TJ, but its been years since I was in the Navy, so maybe he can correct me)

If the Purpose is to go to TJ without a car (which you would be doing if you fly), than you can either take a bus or the TJ trolley to San Ysidero and walk across the border no problemo --- much faster than going through the airport. If the purpose is not to go to TJ but somewhere else than there are much better connections at other Mexican cities.

Has TJ gotten wealthier? When I lived in San Diego, the residents of TJ weren't exactly air travelers. I remember going there in my younger days with stacks of pennies I no longer wanted and causing a near riot as I would throw them about to literally hundreds of kids that looked like that got like one meal a day. I also remember hundreds of homes made out of Cardboard, and bars --- well I don't really remember the bars for some reason....
 
PanAm747
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:06 am

Quote:
First of all, it can take hours to cross the border to get to SAN. SAN is not exactly close to the border anyway, a good 20+ miles north. Traffic THROUGH the city of San Diego can be terrible as well. Flights from TIJ to major hubs like SLC, DFW, PHX or IAH could easily get that TIJ originating passenger to any point in the US or even the rest of the world with good connections. If you have ever tried to cross the border into the USA at San Ysidro, the vehicle wait is a minimum of an hour and can be much worse.

Yes, I know from a great deal of personal experience that crossing the San Ysidro Port of Entry or Otay Mesa Port of Entry can be difficult and frustrating. San Diego traffic is also bad, although the 5 north is usually only bad in the mornings as commuters head inbound, or when a game lets out at Petco Park.

I would ask you this question: What are the passengers from TIJ that you seek? Tourists? Non-existent. They are headed to the Mexican Riviera at Mazatlan, Puerta Vallarta, Cancun, or Los Cabos. Business travellers? Not really. Monterrey is the business city. Tijuana residents? Not really. The few that can afford to fly within the U.S. will take the time and effort to cross the border and use SAN.

Also remember, there are international taxes that add up quickly - a TIJ flight might end up costing more than a SAN flight, and might not be worth the extra cost.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
RobertS975
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 11):
RobertS975,

I will admit up front that it has been years since I have been to TJ, so this maybe incorrect now (Maybe Coronado990 hangs out at the bars in TJ, but its been years since I was in the Navy, so maybe he can correct me)

If the Purpose is to go to TJ without a car (which you would be doing if you fly), than you can either take a bus or the TJ trolley to San Ysidero and walk across the border no problemo --- much faster than going through the airport. If the purpose is not to go to TJ but somewhere else than there are much better connections at other Mexican cities.

Has TJ gotten wealthier? When I lived in San Diego, the residents of TJ weren't exactly air travelers. I remember going there in my younger days with stacks of pennies I no longer wanted and causing a near riot as I would throw them about to literally hundreds of kids that looked like that got like one meal a day. I also remember hundreds of homes made out of Cardboard, and bars --- well I don't really remember the bars for some reason....

Sure it is easy to cross into Tijuana, but it is very time consuming to cross back into the US. TIJ obviously has its share of poverty, but if there was air service to the US from TIJ, there presumably would be value to those who live further south in Baja California in places like Ensenada, Rosarito and even places like Mexicali. Poverty in Mexico is obviously not unique to Tijuana.

So far, I have not heard any real good reasons why TIJ is not served (nor has it EVER been served, to my knowledge) by one or more US carriers. If one argues that the need to clear US inspection and customs at the US destination is a problem, that cannot possibly be any more of a difficulty than travelling across the border to use the air service out of SAN.

The poverty of parts of downtown Tijuana is no different in many other cities in Mexico which support service from multiple US carriers. And there are so fairly well-off areas along the Pacific coast down to Ensenada.

Flights to LAX, SFO, OAK, and PHX would most likely be quite busy, and I suspect that flights on CO to IAH would work as well.
 
RobertS975
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:19 am

BTW, just checked, and the population of Tijuana in 2005 is listed as 1.4 million people. Even if that figure is not particularly accurate, there is obviously a huge population center from which to pull passengers for any direct US service.
 
PanAm747
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:33 am

Quote:
So far, I have not heard any real good reasons why TIJ is not served (nor has it EVER been served, to my knowledge) by one or more US carriers.

I am therefore going to respectfully suggest that you contact the airlines directly and ask them for their insights into TIJ airport.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
TWA902fly
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:38 am

Am i wrong in remembering MX A320 service TIJ-LAX that flew in the middle of the night?

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
Mexicana757
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 16):

I too remember MX having TIJ-LAX service, but with the Fokker 100.
 
FATFlyer
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 13):
If one argues that the need to clear US inspection and customs at the US destination is a problem, that cannot possibly be any more of a difficulty than travelling across the border to use the air service out of SAN.

Except the aircraft, cargo, and crew would also have to deal with customs and immigration, not just the passengers. That slows the aircraft turn.

In terms of what might be coming, well a quick look at the DOT database turned up approval for AM to serve TIJ-LAS.
http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.c...m?documentid=376933&docketid=22916
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
Coronado990
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 11):
Maybe Coronado990 hangs out at the bars in TJ, but its been years since I was in the Navy, so maybe he can correct me)

I assure you I Coronado990 does not hang out in bars on any side of the border.

 whiteflag  Okay, I went there a few times before I was 21. See what everyone is missing out there in SLC, DEN or MCI! Seriously, going to TIJ in my youth made me ready for the just about anything. Perfect for the world traveller!!! And where else are there two cities of such vast cultural differences so close together? (ELP/CJS is about it and it is only half the size of SAN/TIJ with no beaches).

Everyone asks what does TIJ offer? The same thing SAN does....weather. We do share the same near perfect climate.

I have studied past airlines in San Diego and the L.A.-S.D.-TJ route was a very popular Ford Tri-Motor route with both Pickwick and Maddux Airways. Both airlines operated in the late 1920's and early 1930's from the Ryan Airport near Dutch Flats north of MCRD in San Diego. Flights in Tijuana (or Tia Juana as they spelled it then) landed near the Agua Caliente Race Track before the TIJ airport was built. I believe the old control tower is still there somewhere.

I really can't believe there is no coach service connecting Lindbergh with TIJ at least on an hourly headway. I always thought AM would be smart and schedule a bus from TIJ to SAN as part of the airline ticket and then add flights from TIJ to resorts such as LTO, SJD, MZT, PVR and CUN. It could also feed the new service to Japan and make GDL, MEX and other business centers a little easier to get to from SAN.

It could very well work in reverse too allowing TIJ originating pax to board at the Rodriguez airport and simply board a bus to get to Lindbergh Field. The best idea I have heard, however, is putting a long term parking lot on the U.S. side of the border with customs and a footbridge to the TIJ terminals across the road. Couldn't be easier. A big plus would be a trolley route from this facility all the way to the Lindbergh terminals.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
PanAm747
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:15 am

Quote:
A big plus would be a trolley route from this facility all the way to the Lindbergh terminals.

Except that the trolley won't go into Lindbergh Field until a final decision is made on whether the airport is staying or going.

But that is a WHOLE other can of worms...

I know in 1986, AM flew MEX-GDL-PVR-LOR-TIJ-LAX on a single flight. This was the routing of the DC-9 that collided with a light plane over Cerritos.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
SJCRRPAX
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 14):
BTW, just checked, and the population of Tijuana in 2005 is listed as 1.4 million people. Even if that figure is not particularly accurate, there is obviously a huge population center from which to pull passengers for any direct US service.

1.4 million sounds like a lot but we are talking Mexico not Canada.

You do know that Mexicans need a Visa to enter the U.S., and to get that Visa they need to prove they will return to Mexico, which normally means they must prove they have a job in Mexico that earns far greater that the U.S. minimum wage?

Do you know that the Minimum wage in Mexico is $3.50 /day, and the crowds of people that have flooded the border towns to work in the Japanese factories are payed about $10.00/day?

Also about 1% of Population of Tijuana have AIDS, and at least 50,000 people at any one time are there to try to figure out how to sneak into the U.S.

For comparison purposes, there is one flight a day from SJC to Mexico city, and Mexico City has around 20 Million population.

My conclusion is the market is just not there. So I will need to agree with PANAM747, maybe the airlines themselfs can give you a better explanation.
 
FATFlyer
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:50 am

Of course lets not forget there are roughly 250,000 Americans currently living in Baja California with many more buying second and/or retirement homes there.

Expatriate Americans find `gringolandia' in Baja California

Quote:
the Americans in Baja, who number about 250,000 according to one unofficial estimate...

As an indicator of Baja activity, more than 16,000 condos, houses and lots are for sale in present or planned projects, representing $4.1 billion, in the 75 miles between Tijuana and Ensenada, said Gustavo Torres of RE/MAX Baja Realty.

http://www.sanluisobispo.com/mld/sanluisobispo/news/world/15760567.htm

Gringos turn tide crossing border; Boomer retirees invading Mexico

Quote:
Over the past decade, the State Department estimates that the number of Americans living in Mexico has soared from 200,000 to 1 million (or one-quarter of all U.S. expatriates).

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...3LLOUG1.DTL&hw=baja&sn=003&sc=1000
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
RobertS975
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 21):
For comparison purposes, there is one flight a day from SJC to Mexico city, and Mexico City has around 20 Million population.

But there are also flights from OAK and SFO as well.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 21):
1.4 million sounds like a lot but we are talking Mexico not Canada.

I do not know what that means... that population plus the surrounding region should be able to support a few CRJs to various hubs at a minimum. Look at what CO does from IAH in terms of service to non-resort destinations: Toluca, Monterrey, Aguacalientes, Tampico, Chihuahua, Durango, San Luis Potosi, Monclava...
 
sr117
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:20 am

The market, despite what some may think, is most certainly here. If much much smaller mexican cities with less business activity have flights to various US hubs, there is no logical reason why a bigger city like Tijuana, despite it's problems, could not. However, the problem is not the market itself, but that providing the market with a competitive alternative to driving to SAN could prove difficult.

The costs associated with opening a station so close to SAN would probably demand a revenue premium on fares. If fares are not competitively priced, most people would probably opt to just cross the border and fly out of SAN or LAX (yes, lots of Tijuana people drive to LAX for flights as well).

Airlines are most probably unwilling to go through the trouble of opening another station when SAN can effectively absorb demand from Tijuana. Unless they could do it at a low enough cost to be competitive with flights ex-SAN.
 
fewsolarge
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:26 am

Well maybe that's the market that they need to target: business travelers, who would absorb the extra price in order to avoid the driving shenanigans.
 
SJCRRPAX
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 23):
do not know what that means... that population plus the surrounding region should be able to support a few CRJs to various hubs at a minimum. Look at what CO does from IAH in terms of service to non-resort destinations: Toluca, Monterrey, Aguacalientes, Tampico, Chihuahua, Durango, San Luis Potosi, Monclava...

My experience with TJ is really dated so I hate to say these things about it, since things may have changed. Have you been to TJ recently, or are you just looking at the Pop. numbers and wondering why no air service.

So what exactly does TJ have to offer? Mexicans don't visit TJ. Americans don't visit TJ. The Business travelers (at least the couple that I know who are Japanese and live in SD) just drive to TJ. When planning air routes you need to look beyond just the population numbers. You need to know, how wealthy are the residents, is the city a destination, would it make a great hub.

IMHO, everyone of those cities you listed has more going for it than TJ. I did some traveling in Mexico some years ago, so go ahead and correct me if you feel I am wrong but this is why people visit the cities you list.

Toluca is a major automotive area.

Monterrey has one of the highest GDP of Latin America (maybe the hightest), and a population base of 4 million. No way to compare TJ to this city

Aquacalientes got spas and other things

Chihuahua - is known as the lady of the desert, and you'd probably go there if you visit the "copper Canyon"

San Luis Potosi - This is a major tourist area. Rafting, mountain bikes, tropical mountains, etc. People go here for vacations.

Tampico is a oil city and I think Mexico's biggest port city.

Durango is at least pretty and maybe they make cowboy movies or something there --- its got to be better than TJ.

Monclava -- produces steel. I guess its like going to Pittsburg. Maybe the car companies have business there
 
kanebear
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 11:44 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 7):
Go to the Lindbergh parking lot and count the BC license plates and then we'll talk.

Go to MFE and count the number of NL plates... for whatever reason MANY people drive from MTY to use MFE. SAN is FAR more convenient to TIJ than that AND MTY has transborder service. Look at NLD. Huge maquiladora population, lots of business, 500,000 people and growing. They have flights to MEX... 2-3 per day, that's it. The demand just isn't there.
 
milesrich
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:06 pm

Ciudad Juarez is a similar situation to Tijuana, and there, ELP does not have near the choice of flights that SAN does, and Juarez is much larger and less poverty stricken than TIJ. If you go back to the late 60's, TIJ had about the same amount of seats offered as Ft. Dodge, Iowa, or Twin Falls, Idaho. 3 DC-9's and a DC-3 daily. I flew out of TIJ to PVR in 1975 with a group from Orange County. These people hailed from the Dana Point Yacht Club but were too cheap to spend a few extra bucks to fly from LAX, so it was a chartered bus to TIJ. (I drove down and across the border to the airport.) The flight was a DC-9 with a stop at LAP, and the flight continued on to MEX. They oversold the flight and actually put a passenger in the cockpit jumpseat, as well as one in the forward lav. I kid you not.
 
RobertS975
Topic Author
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 26):
My experience with TJ is really dated so I hate to say these things about it, since things may have changed. Have you been to TJ recently, or are you just looking at the Pop. numbers and wondering why no air service.

I actually have been to Tijuana, and of course, my eyes turned skyward and I saw numerous domestic Mexican flights take off and that is when the discrepancy struck me... no trans-border service to the USA when numerous other relatively small stations in Mexico were serviced by more than one US carrier. Then you couple that with the nightmare land border crossing and you have to figure that some of these people might fly to their US destinations.
 
N1120A
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 12:23 pm

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 1):
Maybe a few UAEx flights to LAX for connections would work, but I can't see much else.

Even that would be WAY more hassle than it is worth. People just drive or take the bus or train to Los Angeles.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
Even though SEA-TAC is further away from YVR, than SAN is from TIJ, YVR has a HUGE trans-border operation from all main US carriers. Enough so that US Customs has a pre-clearence setup (although Canada should set part of their Customs lines at YVR for From USA Flights Only--not fun to stand in line after a few Asian carriers come in at the same time with a few large wide-bodies--takes forever in line!). TIJ has enough people that it would be nice for those from the US that come in to do business to not have to deal with SAN and then the San Ysidro crossing.

Tijuana and Vancouver are MUCH different places. First, it is significantly farther from Vancouver to Sea-Tac (which is on the other side of Seattle anyway) than from Tijuana to San Diego. Someone from Tijuana can easily walk the border, take the trolley and get a quick cab or even walk to SAN if they really want to go cheap, or they can just drive. Further, the YVR comparison is even less valid when you consider that Vancouver is an incredibly important city within Canada with tons of Asian and European flights, along with transborder business traffic from places that are farther away than Los Angeles is from Tijuana. Also, you left out that there is an alternate crossing at Otay Mesa.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 4):
Throw into that a DL Connection flight form SLC!

For what?? For the 2 people a day who might fly it? The whole point of preclearence in Canada is to make things as painless as possible, and that is also the point of just flying to San Diego and driving or taking the trolley to Tijuana.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 10):
One would think that service to TIJ, even if a CRJ or ERJ, would find traffic to support itself.

Again, San Diego and Tijuana are often considered one metro area for air traffic purposes, because they do draw from each other, particularly for business travellers. With SAN being much more central in that regard, why would a relatively unimportant border town need service when it is already serviced very well by the second largest city in California.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 10):
Traffic THROUGH the city of San Diego can be terrible as well.

So take the trolley

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 14):
BTW, just checked, and the population of Tijuana in 2005 is listed as 1.4 million people. Even if that figure is not particularly accurate, there is obviously a huge population center from which to pull passengers for any direct US service.

Like I said, that 1.4 million people is really close to a medium hub airport with service to any major destination in the US, there is no need for more service.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
RobertS975
Topic Author
Posts: 756
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Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Tue Oct 17, 2006 8:22 pm

I can tell that most of the posters here have not tried to cross the border here. The pedestrian line can be over 60 minutes at times of the day, and the vehicle line is always an hour or more. Then it is an easy 20+ miles to SAN, and that trip can be an hour at rush hour easily. The trolley does NOT go to the SAN airport.

If there wasn't an already fairly busy airport in TIJ with dozens of mainline service domestic flights, we would not have this discussion as to why no US carrier has tried to service TIJ either from major population points like LAX and OAK or from its hubs. To me, it is a discrepancy, and since about two million people live within an hour of TIJ on the MExican side of the border, I find it quite odd that no US carrier has tried this.
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 31):
I can tell that most of the posters here have not tried to cross the border here. The pedestrian line can be over 60 minutes at times of the day, and the vehicle line is always an hour or more. Then it is an easy 20+ miles to SAN, and that trip can be an hour at rush hour easily. The trolley does NOT go to the SAN airport.

Yes, it has been a few years. In the past if you were blond blue eyed you just waved at them, 5 minutes max. If you want to try this, from the San DIego Airport Web site....

"The San Diego Trolley and the Coaster commuter train do not stop at the Airport. The only public transit available is the Flyer Route No. 992, a Metropolitan Transit System bus that travels between the Airport and downtown San Diego, stopping between Terminals 1 & 2 and the Commuter Terminal. The 10-minute bus service to and from downtown connects with Trolley, Coaster and Amtrak stations and is wheelchair accessible."

I understand why you think TIA is under served by watching all those planes from TIA go south, but I think you are missing who is on those planes. I have never done a survey, but my guess is those planes are full of people who cannot get VISA for entry into U.S. TJ is similar to Texas or Florida in that it is real hard to find a native. Most of the people in TJ originally came from further south, and now that they have their $10 day job working at a Japanese TV company, I'm sure they want to visit family sometimes. Lift the VIsa requirements, and we'd probably get 10 flights/day just to SJC from TIA.

Have you ever walked the dirt streets of TJ, and counted cardboard houses. It's my opinion based on my travels of Mexico that are now like 20 years old so maybe I'm full of BS now, that poverty in TIA is some of the worst in Mexico. TJ is different than most Mexican cities, most Mexican Cities have a reason for existance and people actually live there, TJ people seem to be just waiting for their turn to cross the border. I'm waiting for a Mexican National to correct me on this, but all the educated Mexicans I know come from Guadalara or Monterrey and would never visit Tiajuana.
 
Bicoastal
Posts: 2446
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 5:56 am

Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 32):
Have you ever walked the dirt streets of TJ, and counted cardboard houses. It's my opinion based on my travels of Mexico that are now like 20 years old so maybe I'm full of BS now, that poverty in TIA is some of the worst in Mexico. TJ is different than most Mexican cities, most Mexican Cities have a reason for existence and people actually live there, TJ people seem to be just waiting for their turn to cross the border. I'm waiting for a Mexican National to correct me on this, but all the educated Mexicans I know come from Guadalara or Monterrey and would never visit Tiajuana.

Yes, your view of Tijuana is a bit dated. Yes, there is poverty but as in most developing countries there are many, many wealthy people, too. However, Tijuana has a growing middle class. Now don't let our American bias of middle class bliss sway your opinion. Just because many middle class and wealthy Tijuanan's don't live in cookie cutter look alike suburban subdivision homes with manicured lawns, does not mean there isn't money there. I've been to many friends homes in Tijuana. Don't be fooled by appearances, there's money, sophistication and taste behind the doors. One other thing helping SAN as opposed to TIJ is the amount of wealthy Tijuanans living in San Diego. Most of the new San Diego downtown highrise condos have many, many Mexican nationals owning and living in them. The cancer of the drug wars and corruption is holding Tijuana back, but there are still a lot of assets and potential there.

As to the point of the post....I'd like to see United Express, American Eagle or Delta Connection test the market in TIJ with regional jets. 50 seats a day to SFO or LAX to meet up with Asian and European connections might be doable and profitable. Hey, the families of those drug lords like to travel, too!  Wow!
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sr117
Posts: 681
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2000 2:00 am

RE: WHY No US Carriers To TIJ?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 32):
I'm waiting for a Mexican National to correct me on this, but all the educated Mexicans I know come from Guadalara or Monterrey and would never visit Tiajuana.

Yeah, I grew up in a cardboard box and was taught by wild donkeys.

We get it, you visited Tijuana and don't like it. But please, do not pass off these subjective impressions as universal facts and do not use these to construct a proper argument.

While Baja California only represents 3.4 of the Nation's GDP, this places it at 9th place nationally, Tijuana represents more than 50% of the state GDP (source: INEGI) And yeah before you say it's all maquiladoras, the Manufacturing industry only represents 19.2% of the state GDP.

Tijuana itself boasts a GDP per capita of 9812 dollars. Not rich by any means, I know Tijuana isn't Paris, but it ain't Somalia either.

Quoting SJCRRPAX (Reply 32):
I understand why you think TIA is under served by watching all those planes from TIA go south, but I think you are missing who is on those planes. I have never done a survey, but my guess is those planes are full of people who cannot get VISA for entry into U.S.

I invite you to check out the border corrings at Otay or San Ysidro and see how many people with tagged airline bags coming from TIJ flights are crossing, it's everything ranging from VFR trafic, business people, and tourists from all over.

The market for US flights most probably does exist, but the taxes imposed on trans-border flights would probably make such flights less attractive than the SAN alternatives. Although of course, there could be a market for people who want to avoid the hassle of crossing the border and going to SAN.
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: WHY No US Carriers To TIJ?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:41 am

It is said Avolar will go international, perhaps lets wait to see what they have in mind, they could surprise us!!

g77 APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
SJCRRPAX
Posts: 961
Joined: Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:29 am

RE: Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:48 am

Quoting SR117 (Reply 34):
Yeah, I grew up in a cardboard box and was taught by wild donkeys.

We get it, you visited Tijuana and don't like it. But please, do not pass off these subjective impressions as universal facts and do not use these to construct a proper argument.


 laughing 

It's nice you have a sense of humor, and I can appreciate the sense of pride you have for your home city. I'm almost tempted to visit TJ again, but there are about 100 other more fantastic places in Mexico that I rather visit first. I understand TJ will get a flight to Japan so maybe things are picking up there. I just asked a Mexican here at work if he'd like to visit TJ, and I don't think he has stopped laughing yet, so I guess the city needs to work on its reputation a little. And I found this website with more upto date opinions on the city, since I have avoided the place for so long.

http://www.43places.com/places/view/106639
 
rojo
Posts: 2254
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 6:08 am

RE: Why No US Carriers To TIJ?

Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 35):
It is said Avolar will go international, perhaps lets wait to see what they have in mind, they could surprise us!!

I don't think they will surprise us... I talked to some people involved in the project and there is no clear definition of what they want. They just want more airplanes to fly them everywhere they can. The sad part is they are starting to realize that there is a limited number of city pairs that support air service, therefore, they have been playing with markets to see which ones make money and finaly realize they are loosing on many. The obvious solution is to start flying between some of the 10 city pairs that concentrate 60% of air passengers: Mexico/Toluca to MTY, GDL, CUN, TIJ. After that, they might try the US, but it needs to be done from TLC, GDL or MTY first...

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